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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe

USA
418 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  04:26:24  Show Profile  Visit dwarvenranger's Homepage Send dwarvenranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


You're prolly right... But Mask's reaction to Shar poaching his portfolio was something that was strangely ignored in 3E.
[/quote]

I thought I read something about how Mask was tryin to get Shar to be his sugar mama.

If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.

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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  05:12:43  Show Profile  Visit monknwildcat's Homepage Send monknwildcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat

Based on the events of Avatar IV and V, Mask could have requested a greater deity call a council of the pantheon's greater gods to force Shar off his portfolio of shadows.

It's not as if Shar governed the portfolios of intrigue or shadows, and much of the pantheon would benefit by requiring her to adhere to her given portfolios.

Or did I misunderstand the mechanic of the council?



You're prolly right... But Mask's reaction to Shar poaching his portfolio was something that was strangely ignored in 3E.



Thanks, Wooly!

Unless Ao stripped Mask of his portfolios or Mask *was* Vhaeraun and exited stage right with Vhaeraun, Mask needs to speak up. Gods willing, Kemp will explain all in the last Cale novel....

(This has bearing matter on how I procede with the shadow-mania WOTC's unleashed upon my 3.5 FR.)
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1792 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  07:09:49  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The thing is, though, that from what we've seen of 4E thus far, if there is something evil, it's somehow connected to Shar. For the last couple of years, she's been the major force for evil in the Realms, and the Shattered Realms appear to be continuing that trend. It appears that other evil deities -- like Bane -- or groups -- like the Twisted Rune -- are just sitting on their hands, watching Shar do all the evil stuff.

Maybe this is all because Rich Baker likes goth chicks?
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe

USA
418 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  15:33:29  Show Profile  Visit dwarvenranger's Homepage Send dwarvenranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Goth chicks are fun, for a while at least.

If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.

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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe

402 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  16:39:11  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage  Send ShadezofDis an AOL message Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, the focus on Shar actually made me like the presentation of her FAR less. She's one of the oldest deities in the Realms, the Goddess of Secrets (amongst other things) and the portrayal is that of a short sighted, hammer wielding berserker, rather than a being who counts centuries as blinks of the eye. But then, the number of presentations of gods actions and motivations (in novel or source) that I find to be palatable could be counted on one hand.

But really, it's a vicious circle (IMO). Books with big bangs sell but source information with big players removes the spotlight from the PCs. Or, at least, that's my perception of events so far.

And, last for this post, monolithic anything tends to be not only limiting (wasn't the reason they blew up the realms because the background lore limited people too much?) but also forced and removes any sense of verisimilitude in any setting.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  18:59:03  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Yeah, but there is always some evil god who is the main bad guy.


That doesn't mean it's desirable (or should be that way).

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ShadezofDis
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402 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  20:08:36  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage  Send ShadezofDis an AOL message Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Yeah, but there is always some evil god who is the main bad guy.


That doesn't mean it's desirable (or should be that way).



And it's certainly not always.
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The Red Walker
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Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  21:44:39  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could be wrong here, but I take this all to mean that cyric is the puppeteer behind it all. Only question I have is how is he duping/controlling Shar? SHouldn't she be more powerful?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  22:07:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

I could be wrong here, but I take this all to mean that cyric is the puppeteer behind it all. Only question I have is how is he duping/controlling Shar? SHouldn't she be more powerful?



How do you come to that conclusion? If he was the puppeteer, he wouldn't have wound up in such a bad position for himself...

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Pandora
Learned Scribe

Germany
305 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2008 :  22:27:13  Show Profile  Visit Pandora's Homepage Send Pandora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

I could be wrong here, but I take this all to mean that cyric is the puppeteer behind it all. Only question I have is how is he duping/controlling Shar? SHouldn't she be more powerful?

How do you come to that conclusion? If he was the puppeteer, he wouldn't have wound up in such a bad position for himself...

Cyric a puppeteer? Last I heard was that he is kinda insane (in 3rd edition), which is kinda contradictory to the self-control he would need to manipulate others. But maybe he was just acting and fooling all the gods (and his portfolio wasnt murder and strife, but rather "Hollywood").

If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.

- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5

Edited by - Pandora on 14 Aug 2008 22:27:46
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2008 :  01:55:59  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


How do you come to that conclusion? If he was the puppeteer, he wouldn't have wound up in such a bad position for himself...



Well, he would if he was an incompetent puppeteer.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Aug 2008 01:56:11
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2008 :  04:18:24  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

I could be wrong here, but I take this all to mean that cyric is the puppeteer behind it all. Only question I have is how is he duping/controlling Shar? SHouldn't she be more powerful?



How do you come to that conclusion? If he was the puppeteer, he wouldn't have wound up in such a bad position for himself...

I didn't say he was a good one

I have always thought he was incompitent ,but seems to be able to do things beyond his power and abilities.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1070 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2008 :  16:40:22  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What I like to know is, that even thou Shar gathered enough power to kill mystra, what about Azuth, he lives on Dweomerheart as well doesn't he?? And Larloch or the high Telamont they are so dependent on the weave that they would do what they could to prevent this. Especially Larloch. And also how do you get the weave sick... and as a divine being Mystra is immune to poisen is she not???

It justs does not make any sence... and all the other godt what the h.ll were they doing... at the moment of disaster? Masturbating???


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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2008 :  19:32:25  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shouldn't Mystra's portfolio sense have alerted her to a potentially major disruption in the Weave 180 days before it happened?

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Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 22 Aug 2008 19:34:27
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Hawkins
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USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2008 :  20:15:46  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

Shouldn't Mystra's portfolio sense have alerted her to a potentially major disruption in the Weave 180 days before it happened?
Now, now. That only applies if you want to deal with the subject logically and according to established lore.

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Kiaransalyn
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United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2008 :  20:24:51  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

Shouldn't Mystra's portfolio sense have alerted her to a potentially major disruption in the Weave 180 days before it happened?
Now, now. That only applies if you want to deal with the subject logically and according to established lore.



Oh my! My mistake. I guess the real reason was that Mystra was washing her hair when she got killed. Or doing her nails.

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Ashe Ravenheart
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USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2008 :  20:33:42  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She had the big date with Kelemvor and she knows that he *hates* it when she's running late!

Of course, now I'm picturing Azuth running around Dweomerheart, chasing after Mystra in a bathrobe with a towel on her head telling her 'But Mistress, this is Important!!'.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29798 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2008 :  04:37:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

Shouldn't Mystra's portfolio sense have alerted her to a potentially major disruption in the Weave 180 days before it happened?
Now, now. That only applies if you want to deal with the subject logically and according to established lore.



Actually, I have thought of a way around that, and it doesn't really go against canon... If you say that the Karsus stone was involved, and if you say that since it belonged to a former deity of magic, then it could act as a screen, and then it all works. Yes, this was very much inspired by the Venom symbiote being immune to Spider-Man's spider-sense.

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Sanishiver
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USA
476 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2008 :  05:22:09  Show Profile  Visit Sanishiver's Homepage Send Sanishiver a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could Shar have blocked Mystra's portfolio sense at all?

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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 23 Aug 2008 :  05:35:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought of the Karse-stone scenario myself, when I first heard about this - Shar went to a lot of trouble getting it, so it makes some sense that it still somehow holds a link to Mystra's power.

A link Shar obviously somehow exploited.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Ayunken-vanzan
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Germany
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Posted - 23 Aug 2008 :  08:02:05  Show Profile  Visit Ayunken-vanzan's Homepage  Send Ayunken-vanzan an AOL message  Send Ayunken-vanzan an ICQ Message  Click to see Ayunken-vanzan's MSN Messenger address Send Ayunken-vanzan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shar seems to be an obvious explanation, not only because of her use of the Karse-stone, but also because of her portfolio of secrets and the dark. Being (nearly?) as powerful as Mystra she should be able using her own portfolio to prevent Mystra from detecting a plot against hers. But is this explanation given in the FRCG or anywhere else? Of course not, why should there be any logic or consistency with the changes of the new edition?

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Pandora
Learned Scribe

Germany
305 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2008 :  08:24:43  Show Profile  Visit Pandora's Homepage Send Pandora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, I have thought of a way around that, and it doesn't really go against canon... If you say that the Karsus stone was involved, and if you say that since it belonged to a former deity of magic, then it could act as a screen, and then it all works. Yes, this was very much inspired by the Venom symbiote being immune to Spider-Man's spider-sense.


The Karse-Stone is highly "magical", right? Should Shar - who controls and probably uses the shadow weave - be able to use such an item at all? Shouldnt her touch disintegrate such an object with a "charge of opposite polarity"? Just guessing, but allowing her to do that doesnt seem right. For Cyric it would be a different matter, but then he is mad and probably wouldnt be able to kill Mystra fast enough due to her "backups".

If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.

- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2008 :  10:29:46  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, I have thought of a way around that, and it doesn't really go against canon... If you say that the Karsus stone was involved, and if you say that since it belonged to a former deity of magic, then it could act as a screen, and then it all works.


If the Karsus Stone is a magical artefact that uses the Weave then, as I understand it, Mystra should know about the stone's use 180 days in advance.

Although Karsus was a former deity of magic his divine rank should affect how effectively he could block Mystra's portfolio sense. Given that he's dead the question of divine rank is applied to the opposing deity. If I have remembered aright then Shar's rank is 18, which is the same as Mystra's. I should imagine that in her own godly realm, Mystra would detect the use of said artefact.

So, perhaps the question now becomes did Shar change the Karsus Stone into an artefact that uses the Shadow Weave since Mystra's portfolio sense is linked to the Weave and not the Shadow Weave?

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Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29798 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2008 :  15:18:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, I have thought of a way around that, and it doesn't really go against canon... If you say that the Karsus stone was involved, and if you say that since it belonged to a former deity of magic, then it could act as a screen, and then it all works.


If the Karsus Stone is a magical artefact that uses the Weave then, as I understand it, Mystra should know about the stone's use 180 days in advance.

Although Karsus was a former deity of magic his divine rank should affect how effectively he could block Mystra's portfolio sense. Given that he's dead the question of divine rank is applied to the opposing deity. If I have remembered aright then Shar's rank is 18, which is the same as Mystra's. I should imagine that in her own godly realm, Mystra would detect the use of said artefact.

So, perhaps the question now becomes did Shar change the Karsus Stone into an artefact that uses the Shadow Weave since Mystra's portfolio sense is linked to the Weave and not the Shadow Weave?



But we really don't know that much about the Karsestone. My idea is that since it was part of a former deity of magic, it would basically present a blind spot to the existing deity of magic. She wouldn't be able to sense its presence or use, and anyone holding it would also be hidden from her sight.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Aug 2008 15:19:19
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Arioch
Learned Scribe

Italy
220 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2008 :  01:48:42  Show Profile  Visit Arioch's Homepage Send Arioch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does somebody mention the fact that Cyric was the only one to know Midnight real name? (Source: Avatar Trilogy)

Everybody know the kind of power you have over a being if you know her real name...
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