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 How bloody stupid do they think Mystra is? A RANT
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2007 :  22:16:46  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
As I said in the heading, this is a rant, I won't pull punches on this one...

Cormyr, Shadowdale, Anauroch... all these mysterious plots to unravel the Weave, all of them thwarted. And a few short years later Cyric bounds into Dweomerheart (by MAGIC) and offs Mystra.

Shya, right!!!

The Time of Troubles at least had a plot, one that worked. This bugger does NOT. Or does Wizards believe people are THAT gullible? I mean, seriously, come on! Three Super-adventures, and in each and every one of them Shar plots to weaken/destroy the Weave...and Mystra does what? Um...nothing...um...odd, this is almost as bad as War of the Spider Queen where Corellon and gang are doing their laundry instead of offing Lolth. The WotSQ plot was good, besides this whole vaccuum issue, but now...

Now Mystra basically spreads her legs and waits for the powers of darkness to take her...down. Would any selfaware being who incidentally has the power to even deny magic to a deity like Cyric, just bend over and take all this BS from behind?

And how stupid does Wizards think we are?

If they wanna make the change...fine, can't change that... but instead of doing things in a sensible way they whip out the nukes and push the button.

There are too many gods, they say. Like that really matters.

There is too much background, they say. Have these guys ever tried to develop a V:TDA campaign??? I quit because there was just so much going on that I didn't wanna spend ages in a library just to get the medieval feel right. If they think that bit of background is too much what the f... would they do with a setting like Middle Eart? Oh, the Lothlorien elves are too powerful, and they actually are more like eladrins. And what was that about Numenor? Let's do away with that BS because it will make the game more fun and wouldn't it be cool to let the players discover later on that they are all descendents of Nume...no wait we just ditched the entire Numenor affair.

With the bit of b....ty news we have been given so far, I rather wish for the designers quit observing WOW for new input and dump this whole "players are intimidated" issue.

If players were so intimidated the small group of die-hard fans would hardly be reason enough to keep the FR-line floating at all, unless of course, they really are that keen on dismissing us.

Sure (A)D&D has its flaws, but it is lovable...warts and all.

The best way for all of this would be that Wizards did the same thing with Realms as Marvel did with the X-titles, keep the main line running and create a new line for newcomers... but then what in the blazes will they do when their new and cool audience turns old and they again need a new target audience...

Games and settings evolve, but 4e is no evolution, for it means the old ways would be improved, but instead turns into a tabletop version of WOW...

Hell, maybe that is the new griffon express leaving for Silverymoon... hey, maybe I'm gonna go Mithral farming in some old dwarf-mine...

New and improved my arse!!!

rant over, good night

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!

Theophilus
Learned Scribe

Australia
143 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2007 :  22:59:33  Show Profile  Visit Theophilus's Homepage Send Theophilus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A fine demonstration of catharsis for everyone!
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2007 :  23:06:50  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus

A fine demonstration of catharsis for everyone!

One that I heartily agree with! And he did not even cover the Tyr/Tymora/Helm nonsense.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)

Edited by - Hawkins on 20 Dec 2007 23:07:23
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2007 :  23:52:38  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand


Now Mystra basically spreads her legs and waits for the powers of darkness to take her...down. Would any selfaware being who incidentally has the power to even deny magic to a deity like Cyric, just bend over and take all this BS from behind?


If it comes down to a struggle between Mystra and Shar (remember, Shar was working with Cyric, if not using him entirely), Mystra and her minions will be made out to be as weak as possible, and Shar and her minions will be made out to be as strong as possible--if not stronger than she should be.

Logic, as I've found, has very little to do with it.

quote:
With the bit of b....ty news we have been given so far, I rather wish for the designers quit observing WOW for new input and dump this whole "players are intimidated" issue.

If players were so intimidated the small group of die-hard fans would hardly be reason enough to keep the FR-line floating at all, unless of course, they really are that keen on dismissing us.


That's a great point.

Although, to be fair, Rich Baker has admitted that what the design team is doing is a calculated gamble (that is, he's not going around saying these changes are sure to bring in new fans).

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  00:46:53  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The question is, do we hope that the "new" Realms fails, and that they return to the "classic" Realms, or do we just hope that it continues in a bittersweet version of what we knew and loved? I am torn, because if it does fail, I am worried that they will just shelve the project and move on to Eberron (or some new setting all together). But I also do not think that many of the decisions that they are making are good ones...

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ranak
Learned Scribe

USA
190 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  09:40:56  Show Profile  Visit Ranak's Homepage Send Ranak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra could be weakened by the spellplague - if the weave is sick, she is sick, and therefore vulnerable, etc.

It has never been said explicitly that her death causes the spellplague, people just seem to assume it. Her death could be a consequence of the spellplague.

Perhaps Shar comes close to taking over the weave and Mystra allows herself to be murdered by Cyric rather than let the weave fall under Shar's sway.

Cyric could trigger some pity from Mystra, as they were both human at one time, he could tug on whatever is left of Midnight and take her down in a moment of vulnerability, etc.

It is hardly unprecedented for a god or goddess to be slain by another god or goddess in the Realms. I left out the big deaths from the ToT since they were special circumstances, as well as the Untheric Gods, as no one seems to miss them.

Chronos (from Four from Cormyr)
Eshodow (killed by Shar)
Ibrandul (killed by Shar)
Kalzareinad (killed by Kareska)
Kiputytto (killed by Talona)
Leira (killed by Cyric and Mask, portfolio assumed by Shar)
Moander (killed by Finder W. likely to re-emerge)
Murdane (killed in Dawn Cataclysm)
Valigan Thirdborn (killed by Tyr)
Herne, Lord of the Hunt (killed by Malar)

Considering Shar and Cyric's success in the past, it is not a terrible stretch in any sense to believe they would take down Mystra. It could be Ao's will.

Shar is older than Mystra and has already absorbed three porfolios, and has basically been plotting since the beginning of time - if anyone can figure out a way to nuke Mystra, its Shar.

I am not even sure Wizards will go into detail about the events, we will find out in the coming months.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  12:20:18  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The entry in the Grand History makes it pretty clear that Mystra is killed, Dweomerheart disintegrates, then the Weave overloads and drives a bunch of wizards crazy or kills them.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  15:37:34  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak

Mystra could be weakened by the spellplague - if the weave is sick, she is sick, and therefore vulnerable, etc.




But the Spellplague is supposed to be the RESULT of Mystra's death, not one of the causes.

EDIT: I noticed KEJR and I pretty much said the same thing.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Dec 2007 15:39:55
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  15:38:46  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

The question is, do we hope that the "new" Realms fails, and that they return to the "classic" Realms, or do we just hope that it continues in a bittersweet version of what we knew and loved?



My opinion is: Just use the version YOU like.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Ranak
Learned Scribe

USA
190 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  17:04:08  Show Profile  Visit Ranak's Homepage Send Ranak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed you are both correct, I checked my GHoTR and stand corrected :-) In any case, it is not unreasonable to think Shar and Cyric could get away with this, given other events that have happenned in the Realms. Sad though her passing may be for her fans.

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Ranak

Mystra could be weakened by the spellplague - if the weave is sick, she is sick, and therefore vulnerable, etc.




But the Spellplague is supposed to be the RESULT of Mystra's death, not one of the causes.

EDIT: I noticed KEJR and I pretty much said the same thing.

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  18:40:25  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You might have noticed, Ranak, that I also mentioned the 3 super-adventures...and in all these the attempts to weaken the weave are stopped... Mystra knew something was afoot... but I'm gettinig in rant-mode again...and frankly said, I'm tired

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Ranak
Learned Scribe

USA
190 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  19:58:35  Show Profile  Visit Ranak's Homepage Send Ranak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True. Knowing is half the battle. Of course, she could still be powerless to prevent it, even if she sees it coming, or she could be resigned to her fate, or Shar could have simply outmaneuvered her and predicted how Mystra would respond, betting Mystra would take certain precautions, etc. Sometimes knowing works against you, because you make the wrong moves, etc.

There are pretty diverse and plausible ways they could play this out. But given their recent actions, I am sure they will pick the least plausible explanation that is most likely to enrage fans, lol.

quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

You might have noticed, Ranak, that I also mentioned the 3 super-adventures...and in all these the attempts to weaken the weave are stopped... Mystra knew something was afoot... but I'm gettinig in rant-mode again...and frankly said, I'm tired


Edited by - Ranak on 21 Dec 2007 19:59:51
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2007 :  21:44:37  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak

There are pretty diverse and plausible ways they could play this out. But given their recent actions, I am sure they will pick the least plausible explanation that is most likely to enrage fans, lol.

Unfortunately, I believe that you will be proved correct.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)

Edited by - Hawkins on 21 Dec 2007 21:45:27
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1071 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2007 :  08:56:31  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage  Click to see khorne's MSN Messenger address Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Listen to Mace, for he doth speak the truth(sadly).

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2007 :  09:15:21  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I must agree with you Mace Hammerhand.

Sadly you are right, but my Realms will not experience any changes - The Spellplague and other 4 edition insane changes to the realms.

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2007 :  22:33:02  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are dead on Mace.

When you settle down a bit I would love to hear you take on the whole Helm/Tyr Bullshine.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2007 :  02:09:06  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

You are dead on Mace.

When you settle down a bit I would love to hear you take on the whole Helm/Tyr Bullshine.



Heh, me too!

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2007 :  22:49:17  Show Profile  Visit VEDSICA's Homepage Send VEDSICA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I too am worried that if this "calculated gamble" doesn't work out.What happens then?Does the FR Line cease???I find it hard to believe that WotC would 1.Admit a mistake..2.Go back to the way the setting was...I mean Mystra probably is the most argued about deity this setting has ever known.Now they are going to just up and off her just like that?!?!?!?New gamers are intimidated because the Chosen dominate the setting.DON'T HAVE THEM IN YOUR CAMPAIGN DUMMIES!!!!

Also as Mace so readily rants.Who in their right mind would say that there is too much background?Are they serious???That's what makes The Realms awesome.Tremendous background.What are they going to come up with something similar to a bunch of stick figures written on the wall saying UGA is God of Fire,and Munga is God of de Ert,and that's all the background you're going to get?

Hey I always state that I haven't gamed since 3E came out.But I did game when the first edition of FR came out.So I do go back a ways.So I feel for all you that have been around,and spent your time,and more importantly, your hard earned money on something that you have come to really enjoy.Now you're basically being slapped around with something that is being called a "calculated gamble"..I hope it works.I really do.Not only for you,but for those that created this setting from it's original start.And hopefully everyone knows who I am talking about.....

LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2007 :  23:13:32  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

You are dead on Mace.

When you settle down a bit I would love to hear you take on the whole Helm/Tyr Bullshine.



Heh, me too!



We may have to run a poll to show Mace how many want to read his thoughts on this!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Eremite
Learned Scribe

Singapore
182 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2007 :  11:20:47  Show Profile  Visit Eremite's Homepage Send Eremite a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If this calculated gamble fails, and FR as a setting fails, that won't necessarily be a bad thing.

I understand that Ed assumes certain rights to the IP if WotC stops publishing. Imagine for a moment that FR did fail for WotC and then the rights returned to Ed. I assume he would then be free to move the Realms to another publisher. I like very much what Margaret Weis Productions did with Ed's Castlemourn (even though I hate, loathe and detest with the very fabric and fibre of my being Dragonlance). I am sure that MWP would be a most sympathetic publisher should they be asked to publish Ed's version of the Realms.

Frankly, I've been hoping for FR to fail for WotC for some time so that something like this could happen.

Best
E
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29893 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2007 :  13:36:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite

If this calculated gamble fails, and FR as a setting fails, that won't necessarily be a bad thing.

I understand that Ed assumes certain rights to the IP if WotC stops publishing. Imagine for a moment that FR did fail for WotC and then the rights returned to Ed. I assume he would then be free to move the Realms to another publisher. I like very much what Margaret Weis Productions did with Ed's Castlemourn (even though I hate, loathe and detest with the very fabric and fibre of my being Dragonlance). I am sure that MWP would be a most sympathetic publisher should they be asked to publish Ed's version of the Realms.

Frankly, I've been hoping for FR to fail for WotC for some time so that something like this could happen.



I doubt that stopping publishing would cause it to revert to Ed... Because if that was the case, he'd already have gotten it back, when TSR folded.

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2007 :  16:21:10  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

You are dead on Mace.

When you settle down a bit I would love to hear you take on the whole Helm/Tyr Bullshine.



Heh, me too!



We may have to run a poll to show Mace how many want to read his thoughts on this!



Bring it on

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Eremite
Learned Scribe

Singapore
182 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2007 :  03:16:54  Show Profile  Visit Eremite's Homepage Send Eremite a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I doubt that stopping publishing would cause it to revert to Ed... Because if that was the case, he'd already have gotten it back, when TSR folded.



I don't think TSR folded. I think they were bought out before they had formally folded and before they had formally ceased publishing (splitting hairs, of course, because not being able to pay for product to be printed pretty much suggests that you're not publishing).

Try reading some of Ed's answers via THO on this topic: I am sure he has certain rights to the IP should the FR line be cancelled.

Best
E
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4275 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2007 :  04:24:38  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes if WotC does not do one novel with Ed per year the rights of FR revert back to him according to one of the answers posted by THO. Thus if FR does fold and WotC fails to do a book contract once a year, or pay Ed to accept payment instead of writting a novel, he gets all rights back to do what he wants with his IP.

It appears unlikely that WotC will allow right to revert, it appears Ed does not want rights to revert.

As it stands right now Ed has over one novel a year signed up for and that likely will continue for years to come. Also it is likely neither WotC nor Ed wish to enrich attornys fighting over how much FR IP reverts considering the shared world assept that FR is. That is not all NPCs were of Ed's creation and so on.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2007 :  00:28:11  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still waiting on that poll...won't rant more unless I get my poll *hops up and down, spilling ale*

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2007 :  02:23:07  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Poll is up and running. Let vote to hear Mace Scribes!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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