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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 02:29:37
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This is a thread for discussing the characterization of existing characters from Forgotten Realms (The Seven Sisters, Elminster, Manshoon, etc) inside the novels.
What are your favorite depictions?
What are your least?
Why?
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 06:48:05
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The trouble here is that the best portrayals of characters are usually the author that made the character( or, in some cases, made them their own)and most of the shared characters are Eds. This leaves little to work with for my part as I generally prefer Eds versions. One exception though, I prefer Myrmeen Lhall as seen in Night Parade before those glimpses given of her in Ed's books.
Sorry if this seems unclear, but I am in my first cup of coffee and not thinking clearly yet. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 01:26:54
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| I was very dissatisified with the portrayals of nearly all of the canon characters in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. It's a major portion of why I disliked that trilogy. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 01:42:09
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I like RAS books, but everytime I know Alustriel will be in a scene, I try to not remember it 
I also dislike Elaine's Khelben but to a much lesser degree.
Only Ed should use Elminster.
I agree with Wooly, RotAW was an insult to these characters IHMO.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 21 Oct 2007 01:45:27 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 02:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
What was wrong with Alustriel in RAS?
Except that she has nothing to do with Ed's Alustriel ? |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 03:20:25
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I actually liked Khelben as written by Elaine. Although, I liked him done by Ed and Steve Schend, as well.
Elminster, Manshoon, the Seven Sisters...I prefer them to be done by Ed.
I disliked Storm and Alustriel in the Last Mythal trilogy, although those were just bit roles. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 03:52:59
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My favorite character is the tragic figure of Manshoon as far as canon goes...but if someone besides Ed writes him, well...he seems too stupid to be the guy that founded the Zhentarim.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 04:10:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I don't know, I doubt she indulges in orgies 24-7.
No but RAS' Alustriel show no sign of it at all. (don't forget than RAS wrote a drow sex party that included a demon!)
Also, except that damn fire chariot, she doesn't seem to be able to cast high-level spells. (Well, that's already better than clerics unable to cure a damaged hip!  )
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 07:22:11
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A bit more coffee inside me now; I am so used to Elaines portrayal of Khelben now that I automatically think of the character as represented by her. With maybe a tad more cynicism though.
I agree on Elminster, although his appearance in Azure Bonds where OK.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 00:55:22
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| I have to agree that RAS's portrayal of the Chosen doesn't quite work for me. It's OK--servicable, but not too memorable. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2007 : 05:11:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I actually liked Khelben as written by Elaine. Although, I liked him done by Ed and Steve Schend, as well.
Elminster, Manshoon, the Seven Sisters...I prefer them to be done by Ed.
I disliked Storm and Alustriel in the Last Mythal trilogy, although those were just bit roles.
Agreed on all points, probably prefer Steven Schend's Blackstaff. I forgot Storm and Alustriel were even in Last Mythal so what does that tell you? I also rather enjoyed Lynn Abbey's take on the Simbul and her relationship with Alustriel. One of my favorite stories with the Simbul (in fact one of my favorite Realms stories period) was Ed's "Never a Warpig Born." Also, although I wasn't crazy about the art (he looked like too ogrish), I really liked Jeff Grubb's Mirt from the comics, he was far more Mirt the Merciless than Mirt the Moneylender. |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2007 : 22:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
My favorite character is the tragic figure of Manshoon as far as canon goes...but if someone besides Ed writes him, well...he seems too stupid to be the guy that founded the Zhentarim.
I agree. Sometimes the entire organization is made to seem too stupid to survive. Only Ed seems to really understand Manshoon.
I also like Ed's Harper Torm - He reminds me of a guy I knew in college.
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Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 12:43:00
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Elminster and the Seven Sisters by Ed and Steven Schend.
I like of Khelben in the hands of Steven and Elaine. :) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 16:40:04
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| Of all of the Chosen depicted in RotAW, I thought at least Khelben and Laeral were pretty well done. El was a little weird, and I do not remember who else showed up. Too many Realms novels read close together and they blur a little. Anyways, I did not have any problem with RAS's depiction of Alustriel until The Orc King. I definitely like how Elaine depicts Khelben and Laeral. I abhor how Storm was depicted by Scott Ciencin in Tantras and have resolved not to read any more of his Realms novels. Ed is the bomb on El. Okay, rant over for now. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 21:00:46
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RAS's depiction of Alustriel reminds me of LotR's Galadriel. And rather opposite to the promiscuous woman Ed talks about (heck, Ed's Alustriel would probably have tried to lure Drizzt to her bed a dozen times over).
Khelben and Laeral as written by Elaine Cunningham have been the best depiction of them that I've read so far, though I'll add that I haven't read Blackstaff.
Oh, and as for the Zhentarim coming across as ineffectual, that was probably in the TSR era, when bad guys always had to lose and couldn't ultimately benefit from their villainy. Whereas in The Last Mythal, they took Hillsfar. |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 06:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
RAS's depiction of Alustriel reminds me of LotR's Galadriel. And rather opposite to the promiscuous woman Ed talks about (heck, Ed's Alustriel would probably have tried to lure Drizzt to her bed a dozen times over).
Khelben and Laeral as written by Elaine Cunningham have been the best depiction of them that I've read so far, though I'll add that I haven't read Blackstaff.
Oh, and as for the Zhentarim coming across as ineffectual, that was probably in the TSR era, when bad guys always had to lose and couldn't ultimately benefit from their villainy. Whereas in The Last Mythal, they took Hillsfar.
Hm, sounds like I'd like RAS' version of Alustriel better, though I haven't read that far in his work yet. I get VERY tired of women characters who are either promiscuous or man-haters or total celibates (do so many men really view us as one extreme or the other?). That said, I do believe in being as true to someone else's character as possible, when using him/her in a story, so I'm sure I'd be irritated at the discrepancy...
...And I don't imagine that more-recent views on Manshoon's intelligence and tactics have been helped at all by having him look in the CS like someone who'd hate young martial arts practitioners of the chelonian persuasion. |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 14:41:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Laerrigan
Hm, sounds like I'd like RAS' version of Alustriel better, though I haven't read that far in his work yet. I get VERY tired of women characters who are either promiscuous or man-haters or total celibates (do so many men really view us as one extreme or the other?).
Yeah, except Alustriel isn't RAS' character, so his portrayal of her is about as accurate as your average LOTR fanfic portraying Aragorn as a gay man lusting after Legolas' tight ass. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 16:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Yeah, except Alustriel isn't RAS' character, so his portrayal of her is about as accurate as your average LOTR fanfic portraying Aragorn as a gay man lusting after Legolas' tight ass.
and we all know that it was Boromir he was after |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 17:33:25
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| True, true. That kiss was not as platonic as some might think! |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 21:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
True, true. That kiss was not as platonic as some might think!
LOL! I kinda figured, from what was said about Alustriel in this thread, that the misrepresentation might have been that dramatic... |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 01:50:30
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Alustriel is indeed lusty, but sometimes people focus on that aspect of her personality over all others (the same thing happens at times with Storm). I prefer Ed Greenwood's Alustriel. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 02:05:25
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Some things that occur to me when it comes to this topic. I agree that Alustriel seemed like a stand in for Galadriel in a lot of RAS books. I also agree that her more open nature toward sexuality wasn't really portrayed in those books. However, two things spring to mind. RAS didn't detail every single second of Drizzt's life, and Ed himself had to be rather sly to manage to get any kind of innuendo into his early novels.
Its possible (even if it doesn't seem likely) that Alustriel might have indeed made advances on a handsome drow male, and its possible that Drizzt obliged her, but then, given his mindset, he didn't wish to continue the dalliance given his feelings, or his desire for a single partner, or what have you. Or its possible that Drizzt was turned off by a woman in a position of power making a pass at him, given his history. He might be hyper sensitive about such things.
Given than drow only seem to have a taboo against having children with family, but not, well, anything else, who knows what hasn't really been detailed (Pharaun anyone?)
I'd be willing to bet the drow/demon orgy made it in because it was portrayed as part of what was wrong with the drow, why they were evil. I would imagine that the powers that be, even if RAS had wanted to go this route, probably wouldn't have wanted Drizzt, the hero of the books, portrayed as having been in such a situation, but if he was indeed a promising, handsome young drow, I imagine it would have been very strange for something like this not to have happened.
I mean, Wulfgar's tenure in the Abyss seemed kind of tame in Passage to Dawn when compared to the more detailed accounts of what happened with him, the succubi, and his children in The Silent Blade. So its clear that some events from the character's past might have been cast in a slightly brighter light in some of the earlier novels.
All of that aside, I tend to think of Alustriel as rather driven, a natural diplomat, and a woman that would do whatever she can to defend those under her charge, and one dedicated to making Silverymoon the best place that she can, and that her overall plan for the Silver Marches are part of the extension of this. That she likes to "relax" a bit in between negotiations and planning is just one aspect of her personality. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 02:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
. . . the same thing happens at times with Storm.
I've loved Storm since I read the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy. For some reason she does seem to be a hard one for authors to "get."
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 02:19:59
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Its possible (even if it doesn't seem likely) that Alustriel might have indeed made advances on a handsome drow male, and its possible that Drizzt obliged her, but then, given his mindset, he didn't wish to continue the dalliance given his feelings, or his desire for a single partner, or what have you. Or its possible that Drizzt was turned off by a woman in a position of power making a pass at him, given his history. He might be hyper sensitive about such things.
I would guess it's the last option that's correct. That's just me though.
As for Drizzt having been with Alustriel...well, I would say no if I knew for sure that Drizzt was being 100% truthful about himself in his "journal entries", as he has made it a point more than once that he and Alustriel have only ever been friends, nothing more, and anything to the contrary is nothing more than a rumor. Of course, the manner in which this point is driven home to the reader is almost humorous because it felt to me, when I read it, as if RAS himself is trying to quell the wonderings among readers regarding Drizzt's relationship to Alustriel.
All that being said, I've always found Drizzt to be earnest to fault in those "soul bearing" monologues, so I find myself having to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 02:25:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
All that being said, I've always found Drizzt to be earnest to fault in those "soul bearing" monologues, so I find myself having to give him the benefit of the doubt.
You are correct, RF. Its been so long since I read RAS books, I had forgotten that he did indeed have a few entries where he said, essentially, that Alustriel "seriously, fine woman, never touched her, just friends, honest, nothing else."
Thanks for the reminder . . .
Maybe he just didn't pick up on her "silent speech" as well as others have . . .
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 02:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You are correct, RF. Its been so long since I read RAS books, I had forgotten that he did indeed have a few entries where he said, essentially, that Alustriel "seriously, fine woman, never touched her, just friends, honest, nothing else."
Thanks for the reminder . . .
You're welcome--and yes, that's exactly how those entries came off...it was almost as if he had something to hide.
quote:
Maybe he just didn't pick up on her "silent speech" as well as others have . . .
I'll bet that's the case too. Drizzt always struck me as pretty clueless when it comes to women. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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initiate
Learned Scribe
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 23:39:17
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In some ways I've got no problem with RAS's Alustriel. The way I understand Ed's original character she's promiscuous -- she is not a brainless hedonist. That said, its weird that we haven't seen any hint of her tendencies, (or even just her preference for hugging and touching -- as seen in "Blackstaff"), in RAS's stories all these years, and I think that they certainly should have come through somehow. But keep in mind that we have often seen her in times of crisis in the Drizzt books. Presumably she's focused strictly on business. I agree that she isn't sufficiently awesome, but that's a general malady of RAS's mages and I find that I can (usually) overlook it.
I do think that during the months between "The Halfling's Gem" and "Legacy", when Drizzt was running back and forth to Silverymoon all the time, it would be realistic for something to possibly happen. Then again, the point that she may have stayed clear of Drizzt if he's hypersensitive is a good one too. Ed's Alustriel strikes me as the type of person who would be excellent at reading people and complying with their unspoken wishes. Its hard to tell if Drizzt is hiding something, isn't it? I'm sure that's not the intention -- perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but Salvatore seems to portray Drizzt as one of those characters who makes no mistakes and is the fount of all virtue. He's almost frustratingly infallible these days in my opinion.
Btw: read "The Orc King"; it was pretty good; prologue frightened me
So, yes, I find RAS's Alustriel meh and fairly bland, one of several things about the Drizzt books, [which I do enjoy], which does not match up to the unique flavour of the Realms, but not out and out annoying. Likewise Troy Denning's Elminster: mildly weird but not eye-gougingly bad.
I, too, loathe Scott Ciencin's Storm Silverhand in "Tantras". (The Bard of Shadowdale is a favourite character of mine, and her fate will have weight in my decision of whether or not to move on with 4 E.) She is a plot puppet, moving the story forward while acting almost entirely counter to how she normally behaves. This is the only time that the Fan Within Me has been genuinely disgusted with the portrayal of an established character. Those books aren't favourites of mine anyway, though.
When talking about the Seven Sisters, El, or Alusair, or whoever else, I think its important to remember one of the peculiar wonders of Ed. Among Ed's many gifts seems to me to be the ability to slap what should be fairly ripe, racy stuff on a page and make it sound perfectly plausible and very human. A lot of other excellent authors just can't make this fly.
Steven Schend is theoretically the Khelbenmaster, but I've read Elaine Cunningham's brilliant Khelben for so long that I think I still think of him as "the Khelben". Still, the two authors portray the character in very similar ways if I remember rightly: a grim, driven but basically good man willing to do all necessary in furtherance of his goals. He just seems a little different because his role differs between the two stories: he's much more active in "Blackstaff".
So, yeah:
The Seven: Ed, (though Elaine Cunningham's Laeral is splendid, and I liked her depiction of Qilue as well)
The Incomparable El Myster: only Ed has ever really "portrayed" El
Khelben: Elaine or Steven Schend
Lisa Smedman's Qilue fluctuates. There're scenes in "Sacrifice of the Widow" in which I thought she was perfect. But ... well, we'll see how everything goes down in "Ascendancy of the Last".
I'd like to see some of the new authors try some of these major characters, -- in conjunction with their own excellent work, of course. Oh Wizards, have you offered Erik Scott De Bie a new contract yet? You know you want to. You know you should....
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 02:00:27
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I feel the need to chime in here about Alustriel.
Ed once spent about twenty minutes at a GenCon seminar explaining Alustriel to questioners who wanted to know how to run her in their Silverymoon-based campaign (as an NPC, of course).
He said Alustriel is:
[[switching to Ed's notes here]]
. . . a kind, nice, understanding person (the sort who leaves the need coins, someone who had something crucial broken or stolen a replacement, etc., WITHOUT a big public giving; she just arranges for them to find it when they awaken, or something of the sort).
However, she has learned to be a SUPERB actor, playing whatever role will best suit the needs of a strong, continued Silverymoon (and then an extended Silver Marches) at the moment. So she'll be the stern, wiser ruler, and then turn around and be the coldly calculating bargainer or tactician, and then be the quietly comforting friend.
One of her roles is as the "Queen of Courtly Love," which involves candlelit indoor pool parties (orgies) with any number of envoys from afar and young adventurers (including Harpers) whom she wants to reward, influence (get them to be her friends or in love with her or in lust with her), let others get to know and see (so, for instance, attending Harpers can get to see an envoy 'with their guard down,' and so on), give participants a chance to meet each other in VERY relaxed circumstances and establish friendships or do what we modern real-world types would call "networking."
It is wrong to view Alustriel as "wanton" or "promiscuous" in the modern real-world North American sense of these words; she is using her body as a diplomatic tool, in full control of herself at all times (so she's always "reading" everyone around her and being aware of their reactions, while trying not to seem to do so; she is NOT trying to satisfy her own pleasure).
When Bob portrays Alustriel quite differently, he's simply showing another side of her character - - the side she believes is the proper way (Silverymoon's interests paramount at all times, remember) to relate to Drizzt.
When Alustriel encounters unhappy loners, her automatic instinct is to comfort them, and lovemaking is one way she won't hesitate for a moment to use - - if she thinks it will "work" and won't be bad for Silverymoon.
A DM who thinks Alustriel just wants to bed any handy male of any race, or any attractive male, or any male she thinks she can manipulate into helping her out, is entirely misreading the character.
Correcting or preventing such misconceptions is the very reason why I wrote THE SEVEN SISTERS sourcebook.
So, so saith Ed. (Sorry, THO. I've always wanted to type that.  )
Just trying to enlighten everyone, in light of way too many mentions, down the years, of the "Gee, Ed sure writes Alustriel as a wanton slut, doesn't he?" sort, here at the Keep and elsewhere. Way too many gamers seem very quick to project their real-world neighbourhood's moral views onto FR characters who after all live in a medieval/er, Renaissance -era fantasy world that's never heard of, say, Christianity.
Thanks,
BB
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Best portrayals of canon characters
