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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  17:25:33  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Boy... this just keeps going round and round doesn't? I'll have to double my efforts to complete my FR FAQ for Candlekeep I think .




Cough,

Actually you need to redouble your efforts to send me a certain outline since there's only about a month left to write a certain article. I'm giving you a deadline of mid Feb or I'm going to scrap the idea. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  17:42:07  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KujeActually you need to redouble your efforts to send me a certain outline since there's only about a month left to write a certain article.
Not really... since I'm basically done. Just waiting for a OK from Ed...

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe

USA
720 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  20:29:56  Show Profile  Visit Beirnadri Magranth's Homepage  Send Beirnadri Magranth an AOL message Send Beirnadri Magranth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
its "canon" just not CANON. the story had too many errors to be really CANON. but it doesn't matter
i dont remember talking about suldenessellar before but w/e

"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."

-Judge Brinkema
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  20:36:13  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

its "canon" just not CANON. the story had too many errors to be really CANON. but it doesn't matter
i dont remember talking about suldenessellar before but w/e



Sure, whatever you say even though it is CANON as you want to name it.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2006 :  01:01:35  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

its "canon" just not CANON. the story had too many errors to be really CANON. but it doesn't matter
i dont remember talking about suldenessellar before but w/e

The Bhaalspawn saga is canon regardless of what knife you use to cut it... If it's referenced in the Realmslore and has been discussed, as canon, by game designers... then it has had just as much support as any other piece of officially recognised canon Realmslore.

Thus, it is canon -- pure and simple -- not "canon-lite" or "canon-zero"... just canon.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Zémobiel
Acolyte

Canada
2 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2006 :  20:29:41  Show Profile  Visit Zémobiel's Homepage  Click to see Zémobiel's MSN Messenger address Send Zémobiel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will end you discution right here, you want canon i give you a canon...
In the Book Lost Empire of Faerun, in the chapter of the Dead God, in the entry about Bhaal, they say that the Spawn of Bhaal still walk on Faerun and war each other...
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2006 :  23:33:14  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What did I say a few months back about the word "canon"?

It's a stupid word. I prefer "official". "Canon" makes it seem like we are talking about matters of life and death here.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Feb 2006 23:33:29
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2006 :  23:36:03  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zmobiel

I will end you discution right here, you want canon i give you a canon...
In the Book Lost Empire of Faerun, in the chapter of the Dead God, in the entry about Bhaal, they say that the Spawn of Bhaal still walk on Faerun and war each other...



What's funny is that kinda contradicts other lore--not just from the game, but I think from the novels too. I don't recall the Throne of Bhaal novel mentioning that there were many Bhaalspawn left to battle each other...

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3053 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  16:26:59  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enoyed the story from the games very much...I even use the main plot as having happened in my campaign (other than the side quests like kiling the Twisted Rune...like hello!!??)

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Lenora Ilvastarr
Seeker

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2006 :  19:05:54  Show Profile Send Lenora Ilvastarr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Our group has used the BG saga as well, but more as something that's happening elsewhere. Events that aren't affecting us, but we were hearing the rumors and all nonetheless.

However, I was perusing the Roll of Years recently and noticed something. The character in the computer game is 18 years old at the start of the saga. At least, that's what I recall. 18 years after the ToT is 1376DR

The Year of the Bent Blade.

Hmmm, the Iron Crisis along the Sword Coast possibly?

Now, you never know what the designers have planned, but it is something to think about.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2006 :  21:51:59  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr

Our group has used the BG saga as well, but more as something that's happening elsewhere. Events that aren't affecting us, but we were hearing the rumors and all nonetheless.

However, I was perusing the Roll of Years recently and noticed something. The character in the computer game is 18 years old at the start of the saga. At least, that's what I recall. 18 years after the ToT is 1376DR

The Year of the Bent Blade.

Hmmm, the Iron Crisis along the Sword Coast possibly?

Now, you never know what the designers have planned, but it is something to think about.



The character in the games is 20 years old, but was not necessarily born during the Time of Troubles. Bhaal walked the planet and spread his wild oats before he was actually forced to become a mortal.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Oct 2006 21:52:47
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  01:19:40  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The whole Bhaalspawn plot of the Baldur's Gate game series frankly never made much sense to me.

Just how did Bhaal envision getting himself resurrected through creating "a score of mortal progeny?" (To use the words of the prophet Alaundo.)

In BG1 we know that Sarevok set out to incite a massive war, beginning with Baldur's Gate versus Amn, and hopefully spreading all throughout Faerun. He wanted to use the metaphysical energy of the death toll caused by a great war to somehow raise Bhaal. Yet he confuses the matter by talking about either himself or the protagonist seizing the opportunity instead to become the "new Lord of Murder."

It gets further confused in Throne of Bhaal with the semi-divine but mortal offspring of Bhaal running around, each with some of Bhaal's essence, causing the "Bhaalspawn Wars." At first glance, this almost sounds like Sarevok's plan coming to fruition.

But it seems Sarevok's plan was evidently not what Bhaal had in mind, after all. Near as I can tell, Bhaal simply wants for at least one of his offspring to become powerful enough that it amplifies Bhaal's essence, enough to bring Bhaal back to life. Having said that, I will confess that the details of Throne of Bhaal make almost no sense to me.

Can someone please break down the "Bhaalspawn" saga?
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  02:07:03  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis

In BG1 we know that Sarevok set out to incite a massive war, beginning with Baldur's Gate versus Amn, and hopefully spreading all throughout Faerun. He wanted to use the metaphysical energy of the death toll caused by a great war to somehow raise Bhaal. Yet he confuses the matter by talking about either himself or the protagonist seizing the opportunity instead to become the "new Lord of Murder."




Personally, I took Sarevok's plan as exactly that...Sarevok's plan based on his own interpretation of what he learned about Bhaal (and he probably saw what he wanted to see here, too), not necessarily the plan that Bhaal had in mind.

That being said, the Bhaalspawn saga is not and never was completely free of plot holes and things that simply don't make much sense. Like many fantasy plots involving gods, it's quite absurd. The people who worked on the first game aren't necessarily the same people who worked on the second game...that should say something right there.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Feb 2007 02:07:20
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  14:12:21  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Bhaal was attempting what Bane actually achieved. Bane used his semi-divine son Iyachtu Xvim as a kind of cocoon to regenerate himself and be reborn through.

Abdel Adrian the other Bhaalspawn evidently are serving the same purpose for Bhaal. Abdel is the official canon character for the saga's inclusion into canon, based on the novelizations of the games.

The novelization of Throne of Bhaal by Drew Karpyshyn is now out of print. But if I understand correctly (?), Abdel opts neither to raise Bhaal or assume his portfolio for himself. He elects to remain a semi-divine mortal. (? Can someone who has the book please confirm this?)

I guess there's nothing beyond a coincidental relationship between Sarevok's plan and the 'Bhaalspawn Wars'.

I suppose there may be other Bhaalspawn out there that Abdel didn't manage to kill. Wikipedia states,

quote:
Issue number #288 of Dragon Magazine contains an article detailing Bhaalspawn for 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons, enabling a Gamesmaster to effectively reecreate the Baldur's Gate series of games for their own campaign, or to play a "post-games" campaign where not all of the Bhaalspawn were slain and where they retained the fragment of Bhaal's essence.

Edited by - Lemernis on 16 Feb 2007 15:49:36
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  16:17:08  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Abdel gives up every part of Bhaal's power at the end of the novels, effectively making him just a normal mortal while a upper planar takes Bhaal's essence and scatters it across the multiverse.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  16:41:33  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah. Thanks!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29701 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  17:51:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Bhaal was attempting what Bane actually achieved. Bane used his semi-divine son Iyachtu Xvim as a kind of cocoon to regenerate himself and be reborn through.


Actually, we don't have enough info to know if this is true or not. We've discussed it elsewhere, but other theories are that Bane was as surprised by his rebirth as anyone else, or that -- and this is my fave theory -- Xvim is pretending to be a reborn Bane.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  19:08:06  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Faiths and Pantheons does say that Bane is back, but I get what you mean. That's an approach I often like to take myself. That is, I enjoy thinking up reasonable alternative explanations based on what's known.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2007 :  23:27:52  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Abdel gives up every part of Bhaal's power at the end of the novels, effectively making him just a normal mortal while a upper planar takes Bhaal's essence and scatters it across the multiverse.



Yup (I read the BG novels, myself), and just as a note that's also one of the endings for the Throne of Bhaal game, as well. In the game, the PC's other option is to accept Bhaal's essence and become immortal (either good or evil), and Bhaal never gets a chance to come back.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Feb 2007 23:29:11
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  09:25:02  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis

Faiths and Pantheons does say that Bane is back, but I get what you mean. That's an approach I often like to take myself. That is, I enjoy thinking up reasonable alternative explanations based on what's known.

My current theory about Bane's return...

quote:
Originally posted in the Candlekeep's Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ

Let's assume that Bane'e Return wasn't planned, and when Xvim had gathered enough of Bane's power and essence, it reached a critical mass and overwhelmed him. I can see Bane, after such an event, being a little different from what he was previously -- perhaps even existing as a merged being between both himself and what was left of Xvim.

His symbols and colour change to more closely match Xvim. That would also indicate more of a merge -- which, in my opinion, points to the theory I listed. Xvim's (ascended) symbol looked more like his dad's -- only with the hand sitting with the thumb facing the left, rather than the right like Bane's. And Xvim's symbols have always had eyes -- old and ascended.

Bane's new symbol has still got the black fist (facing the same way as his old symbol) and squeezing green rays. Xvim's symbols always had a green component to them -- in the form of those eyes on his symbols. Perhaps the green rays in the new Bane symbol could reflect Xvim's past existence with Bane -- maybe illustrating how Xvim was later replaced (or rather subsumed) by a resurrected Bane by the fact that his black fist is closing in on the green rays (that represent Xvim).

And we must not forget that Bane's old symbol had the black hand on a red field -- so Bane 2.0 is using Xvim's colors. The green mainly... though, as I said above, Bane's Hand is still the same in the new symbol as it was in the old -- just clutching rather than flat. Bane 2.0 is utilising Xvim's green.

If the "planned" explanation is used, then Bane should have kept his old colours of red and black. The fact that he's using black and green suggests that some of Xvim remains... And that's another interesting thing: how much of a tyrant could Bane be if he couldn't even totally subsume his own son?

The more I think about this and the lore we do have, the more I tend to think that Bane's return was as much a surprise to him as it was to anyone else.

Though... Bane's Hand is squeezing the green rays -- and if we look at that from the "Bane-eventually-subsumes-Xvim" stand point, that image itself could suggest Bane is perhaps closing in around Xvim's remnants, or rather, slowly squeezing it out of existence (or rather again, completely consuming it).

It could be, if we assume Bane's Return was in fact an opportunity rather than something properly planned on Bane's behalf, that Bane's current image is transitory. Once Bane's completely consumes what remains of Xvim into his being... Bane's older symbol (or a new and reinvigorated symbol) may become apparent. Bane's resurrection then, will be properly complete.

It could also be that Bane's hand is clutching an object that is shining forth, despite his desire to contain it... Xvim perhaps. Sure, it's not appropriate for a god of tyranny, but it is an alternate interpretation. The aspect shining forth could represent also Freedom. Bane's squeezing or crushing it could suggest how tyranny is usually equated with the end of freedom.

If that's the case... then it's highly appropriate.


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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1073 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  16:39:51  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Wooly Rupert. Xvim has fooled everyone.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2007 :  19:40:51  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I heartily agree that a DM could definitely run with that. That's great. :D

I look at ambiguities or blanks in the setting as material for DMs to excercise their creativity with. If down the road some new canon comes out the contradicts it, no biggie. As Bob Ross said, "it's your world."
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2007 :  01:32:21  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

its "canon" just not CANON. the story had too many errors to be really CANON. but it doesn't matter
i dont remember talking about suldenessellar before but w/e

The Bhaalspawn saga is canon regardless of what knife you use to cut it... If it's referenced in the Realmslore and has been discussed, as canon, by game designers... then it has had just as much support as any other piece of officially recognised canon Realmslore.

Thus, it is canon -- pure and simple -- not "canon-lite" or "canon-zero"... just canon.




Is it okay to call it "canon-in-need-of-a-rewrite"?


I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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see
Learned Scribe

155 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2007 :  08:18:30  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Me, I like the idea that the new Bane himself isn't really sure if he's Bane, Xvim, or something else.

That is, he thinks of himself as Bane, but at the same time he knows he isn't exactly the same being that died in the Time of Troubles. Is it just that he's been reborn and his portfolio has changed? Or is it that he's "really" a powered-up Xvim, and the influence of those dozens of Baneliches who thought they were Bane, and the worship of Banite clerics that treated Xvim as Bane reborn or Bane's heir, managed to transform his self-identity? He's got Xvim's memories still, and he's got what he thinks are Bane's memories, and he's got memories of all those Baneliches, and . . . bah! Who cares!

He thinks he's Bane, right? He's a greater god, right? Who's going to tell him he's not Bane, eh? He's not some pansy like Oghma to meditate on worthless philosophy like the nature of truth or identity. Whether the old Bane reborn, or a new Bane replacing the old, he's Bane now, and nobody's going to get in his way.
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Tyr
Learned Scribe

225 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2007 :  12:22:22  Show Profile  Visit Tyr's Homepage Send Tyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Atleast Ao would know for sure, it kinda comes with the territory.

The problem with the ToB ending and having all his essence scattered is probably just gonna cause the same thing all over again.
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