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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2004 :  21:09:46  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Elrond Half Elven

i can see the point of both kuje31, and the psychotic seaotter.

However I think that the psychotic seaotter has picked up the wrong end of the stick as it where.

Kuje31 isn't saying that Canon sources MUST be recognized IN YOUR GAME. But rather what he is saying is that a Canon source is an OFFICIAL source which, wither or not you incorperate it into your game, is the blueprints that all other FR product work from.

What you interperate as Canon here I interperate as History, events and other general 'fluff'. Canon is not actually these things but rather the official verdict this is 'Set in stone' to a certian degree. That is you have no power to change the 'official (Read Publishers view' of the Realms. So if your campaign branches of from the 'official sourcebooks' (For example say you decided that the turmoil in the Zhentarium never occured) then you must assimilate and convert the Canon source (That is the Officially published infromation) to fit you Campaign.

What I'm trying to sat is Canon Information is the Info that is provided by the Game Designers not the information which you incorperate into the Game.

Lets try and get the discussion back on topic before Alaundo comes(If anyone wishes to talk about this I will over Private chat or in another post)

Incidently I like the idea of Bhaalspawn but I think I would only use it in a campaign where it was part of the main plot and I certianly wouldn't use any of the BG events.

Hanx
Elrond



Exactly. :) And I dunno I might include them in my game but then I don't really "need" to since I don't use ToT's and the trio didn't die in my version even though they did in official canon Realms. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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ode904
Learned Scribe

Finland
193 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2005 :  23:02:38  Show Profile  Click to see ode904's MSN Messenger address Send ode904 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK here me world..
Bhaalspawn saga is tremendous nad very good story.
The game is probably the best of Fgh games. The books can be pour, i havent read them either. But if the author did not succeed, does that make the whole saga bad? No. Not at all.
The epic saga of half-god is interesting and very good in my opinion.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2005 :  04:36:42  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not to change the subject or anything, but ... the original question was: when are the events of the Bhaalspawn saga set?

This from Forgotten Realms: The Library / Forgotten Realms Chronology (http://www.o-love.net/realms/fr_time_13b.html):

quote:
1368 -- Year of the Banner "Baldur's Gate": Sarevok, spawn of the dead god Bhaal, plots with the Iron Throne to start a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate. Scar of the Flaming Fists and Grand Duke Eltan of Baldur's Gate are slain. Another spawn of Bhaal, Abdel Adrian, confronts Sarevok and slays him.

I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2005 :  04:43:26  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Not to change the subject or anything, but ... the original question was: when are the events of the Bhaalspawn saga set?


I answered this back on page 1. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2005 :  05:06:08  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Not to change the subject or anything, but ... the original question was: when are the events of the Bhaalspawn saga set?


I answered this back on page 1. :)


So you did. It was at the bottom of the page and I missed it.

I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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ode904
Learned Scribe

Finland
193 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2005 :  22:39:29  Show Profile  Click to see ode904's MSN Messenger address Send ode904 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah it really happened then. The story of Bhaalspawn saga. I wasnt sure of it until that link. Thanks Jamallo!

Edited by - ode904 on 05 Jul 2005 22:40:13
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2005 :  02:44:59  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ode904

Ah it really happened then. The story of Bhaalspawn saga. I wasnt sure of it until that link. Thanks Jamallo!


"Not a problem." I do have a few insignificant uses. I am a persistent researcher, and delve deeper into matters once the Sages here provide me with an answer to a question. If I discover something new or interesting, I feel obliged to return and share that knowledge.





















(Heheheheheh. I hope the suckers bought that line. My Lord Ksarul will pleased with me....)





_

I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2005 :  00:55:45  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Minardil

What was year of the Bhaalspawn saga (Story of Baldur's Gate)? Manuals say it's either 1369 or 1373. I ask this becouse I'm planning a grand adventure for my players.



If you are going by the novels, the answer is 1368-1369.

If you want to go by the computer game (which some people do!) the answer is a bit harder. BG2 has references to Lands of Intrigue, for example, that took place in 1370.

1373? The events of that year were only a twinkle in the designers' eyes back then.

I don't think the dates for this story matter *that* much, to begin with, but that's my opinion.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2005 :  02:32:43  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you're keeping the events of the Bhaalspawn saga (as it was portrayed in the novels) as part of your overall Realms campaign, then they are largely canon with regard to time and dates.

The inclusion of the Bhaalspawn template in LEoF and an author's remarks in Kuje's FR FAQ on the WotC boards prove that.

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Feanor
Learned Scribe

100 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2005 :  10:46:25  Show Profile Send Feanor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by Minardil

What was year of the Bhaalspawn saga (Story of Baldur's Gate)? Manuals say it's either 1369 or 1373. I ask this becouse I'm planning a grand adventure for my players.



If you are going by the novels, the answer is 1368-1369.

If you want to go by the computer game (which some people do!) the answer is a bit harder. BG2 has references to Lands of Intrigue, for example, that took place in 1370.

1373? The events of that year were only a twinkle in the designers' eyes back then.

I don't think the dates for this story matter *that* much, to begin with, but that's my opinion.




The year when BG2 takes place is 1369 DR. The date in the main character's journal specify that. Those small references to events after 1369 I consider them just Bioware's carelessness.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2005 :  20:33:26  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor


The year when BG2 takes place is 1369 DR. The date in the main character's journal specify that. Those small references to events after 1369 I consider them just Bioware's carelessness.



I don't. Also, the offical Baldur's Gate FAQ dates (1370-1371) contradicted the dates from the in-game novel.

Anyway, it doesn't matter that much. The Baldur's Gate saga isn't the type of story where the dates are of paramount importance.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Melfius
Senior Scribe

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2005 :  21:46:30  Show Profile  Visit Melfius's Homepage  Send Melfius an AOL message Send Melfius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone foresee a return of Bhaal anytime soon? (ala Bane)

Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29636 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2005 :  22:43:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Melfius

Does anyone foresee a return of Bhaal anytime soon? (ala Bane)



Gods, I hope not... I hope that we've got all of the returns out of the way.

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Melfius
Senior Scribe

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2005 :  22:44:58  Show Profile  Visit Melfius's Homepage  Send Melfius an AOL message Send Melfius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Naw, there's plenty more returns left out there!

Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2005 :  22:44:19  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Melfius

Does anyone foresee a return of Bhaal anytime soon? (ala Bane)



Who knows? But like Wooly I'm rather tired of the "old things returning" trend myself.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2005 :  06:03:54  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Me I'd like to see the return of Elminster's hat Apart from that - no, please no more risen anew gods (except possibly that slumbering Jhaamdathan god of psionics).

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2005 :  23:13:15  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase

Me I'd like to see the return of Elminster's hat Apart from that - no, please no more risen anew gods (except possibly that slumbering Jhaamdathan god of psionics).



I'd like his hat to come back too. :)

My attitude about Bhaal coming back is this. He tried already, and he failed. The story is over, let it rest already.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1100 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2006 :  00:10:59  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK: Canon as far as I understand it is any work that has been published in a WOTC (or TSR for that matter) source. This includes sourcebooks, Dragon magazine, Dungeon magazine, and novels set in the setting in question.
The Baldur's Gate series has been published in novellized form, thus it is canon (however bad the books may be). What happened in the Bhaalspawn saga is what happened in the Baldur's Gate novels.

You do not have to implement exactly what happened in the book if you want to base your campaign around the saga. It is your campaign, you are the DM, thus you can do anything you want. But, according to the official sources you will be going against canon.

For example: if your Bhaalspawn joined Bodhi's theives guild rather than Aran Linvail's, that is how you play it but it is NOT how it happened according to Realmslore. It happened in your campaign (and anyone else's who wanted to play it like that.) but it didn't happen anywhere else.

As such. The Bhaalspawn was called Abdel Adrian.

I have personally never read the books but since Abdel Adrian is not a god (for good or evil) I can deduce that he gave up his divinity. The only Bhaalspawn left (if any) are the weakest of the dead god's progeny (thus they didn't get noticed to be killed by the other Bhaalspawn/people trying to kill ALL Bhaalspawn) and aren't likely to take on his mantle. So unless someone publishes something new about Bhaal being resurrected. There's not a lot of chance of it ever happening.

So, Bhaal is a dead god with a couple of temples and a few followers...a lot like Amaunator, Myrkul, Moander, Ibrandul, etc.

Never say never, though. Bane was resurrected. Maybe some author will decide to resurrect a dead god somehow. Maybe you could become an author and, if you're good enough you can make a canon resurrection.

I would recommend Myrkul.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Vvornth
Seeker

Sweden
48 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2006 :  01:53:59  Show Profile  Visit Vvornth's Homepage Send Vvornth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem with resurrecting old gods is that you risk inviting the Marvel syndrome. That is, your fanbase stops taking your "serious" events seriously because they can always be un-made later. For me that is the worst thing that can happen to a fictional universe.

It's good to be king
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2006 :  02:20:28  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How can you say that? I have been deeply moved each and every time Jean Grey has died . . . and how can you say that Colossus' death means nothing, just because he didn't stay dead. And how about when Aunt May died, huh? Or, um . . . point made . . . (Death in permanent in the Marvel Universe only if you are Bucky)

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/


Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 04 Jan 2006 02:21:16
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Volo
Seeker

Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  13:23:31  Show Profile  Visit Volo's Homepage Send Volo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a scary thought. Abdel Adrian may well /be/ a god. It may be that he just hasn't gotten his affairs in order yet; consider Kelemvor. Even though he was raised after the his partners, (Mystra/Midnight and Cyric), it still took him yet LONGER, about a year or so, to actually declare himself. Granted, it's been four years since Abdel passed/rose/died/whatever-the-nine-hellsed, but who's to say he didn't actually rise as a god? Without a portfolio, granted, given that Bhaal's portfolio is rather firmly under the control of Cyric. Which could explain why he hasn't declared himself yet.

Abdel Adrian: I am a god! (cue thunder and lightning)
Average Realmsian: Oh, yeah? What of?
A.A.: Um... that doesn't matter! I am a god! (cue more thunder and lightning)
A.R.: Well, ye need tae be god /of/ something if ye want me as a worshipper! Who ever heard of a god of being a god?!?
A.A.: But... I am a god! (cue bad tinfoil shaking and obvious special effects)
A.R.: Oooookay. Get back to me on that.

You can see his problem. And since deities in the Realms are tied to their worshippers' belief, he may well be trying his devine damndest to wrest a portfolio from one of the other deities, or to establish one of his own from things that don't have a deity over them yet -- and soon, lest he die of lack of worship.

Of course, the above is entirely speculation, and frankly speculation I hope doesn't come true, since like the rest of you I hated those novels!!!

Volo's misunderstood. He's not an idiot. He's a FLAMING idiot!
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  16:18:38  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's speculation that has no basis in fact, because at the end of the novels he gave up his divinity. I.E. the Spark of Bhaal that was within him. He is just a "normal" mortal now. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe

USA
720 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  16:39:15  Show Profile  Visit Beirnadri Magranth's Homepage  Send Beirnadri Magranth an AOL message Send Beirnadri Magranth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i dont even think the city of suldenesselar exists so the dates wouldnt be important bc the story isnt really canon. the bhaalspawn situation is canon tho. but you can make up your own timeline.... as you already have by now (seeing as this thread is from 03!!!!)

"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."

-Judge Brinkema
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  16:55:34  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

i dont even think the city of suldenesselar exists so the dates wouldnt be important bc the story isnt really canon. the bhaalspawn situation is canon tho. but you can make up your own timeline.... as you already have by now (seeing as this thread is from 03!!!!)



As I answered to you before, yes that city does exist in published sourcebooks. Volo's Guide to BG II and Lands of Intrigue or Empires of the Shining Sea.

And the story in the novels is canon since WOTC lists it as such and the authors have said it is, game designers have said it is, and the chars were stated in Dragon articles in 2e.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 02 Feb 2006 16:59:50
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2006 :  17:15:11  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth

i dont even think the city of suldenesselar exists so the dates wouldnt be important bc the story isnt really canon. the bhaalspawn situation is canon tho. but you can make up your own timeline.... as you already have by now (seeing as this thread is from 03!!!!)



As I answered to you before, yes that city does exist in published sourcebooks. Volo's Guide to BG II and Lands of Intrigue or Empires of the Shining Sea.


And I'm pretty sure I did as well -- and it was both... LoI and EotSS.

Boy... this just keeps going round and round doesn't? I'll have to double my efforts to complete my FR FAQ for Candlekeep I think .

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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