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Zaknafein
Learned Scribe

USA
77 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2003 :  04:41:08  Show Profile  Visit Zaknafein's Homepage Send Zaknafein a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
hi, i am quite familiar with the Realms, but i don't know much about it back in the days of Netheril. I know it once held great mages and magics, but can someone please give me some more information about this city?


Zaknafein Do'Urden: mentor, teacher, friend....To Zak, the one who inspired my courage. -Drizzt Do'Urden

Full plate and packing steel.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2003 :  07:16:53  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Greetings,

Firstly, Netheril was not a city, but a magical empire of Humanity.

Second, go here as it will begin a download of a FR campaign expansion called Arcane Age: Netheril - Empire of Magic. This will give you all the information you will need.

Good learning...



- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs



Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2003 :  10:19:12  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
YOu could also find interesting to read theses books
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5760 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2003 :  18:09:34  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You might also find that the Netheril boxed set was not a particularly brilliant FR product. Adequate would be the kindest description you could give it, but when I consider Slade's FR work I'm very seldom kind ...

When Steven Schend was head of FR design, we often talked about "Arcane Age" stuff as this was an area of interest for all of us ("us" being people who helped research/proofread FR products). The consensus was that when compared to Cormanthyr, Netheril was a poor product. To give Netheril a bit more guts and scope, we always considered the Netheril boxed set to be talking about "Upper" Netheril (i.e. the enclaves). There was also a "Lower" Netheril which was responsible for much of the Netherese magic items seen in the Realms today (blast scepters, et. al.) and did not rely on mythallar magic, but drew on the Weave as had been taught to humans by the elves of Illefarn and Eaerlann.

This concept of upper and lower Netheril finally got sneaked into the FR "official" continuum in Races of Faerun by Eric Boyd (pgs. 107-108)- it's taken us a while, but we got there.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2003 :  02:49:00  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure why George is *so* hard on slade: The North isn't more than the sum of its parts, SJR2 Realmspace isn't great, but Netheril made a mess by not following existing references in detail and intent, not using Ed's unpublished notes, and not being impressive creatively, either. (And it made Ioun a wizard, whereas I suspect Ed would have honoured the origin of IOUN stones in Jack Vance's Rhialto the Marvelous.)

Personally, I tend to ignore that box and I don't think it's worth taking the time to read. But the rest of the lore on Netheril is scattered all over the place...
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2003 :  03:02:06  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SPELLJAMMER!!! HAH!

A great concept, done poorly...


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2003 :  03:57:06  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed. I think with a little work, it would have ended up as a great campaign world. I liked it so much, I actually made some models of some fanciful spelljammer ships.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2003 :  08:08:03  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also believe, although at the moment I can't find the url, that there is a 3e fan-created gaming supplement to the Netheril campaign expansion. If I remember correctly, it details all the information in 3e format. I believe as well as this it may have some homebrew material related to the Netheril setting also.

I will try and find the address. I'll post it here when I have it.



Just a little off topic - A quick question for both Bookwyrm and Mournblade - What exactly didn't you like about the SpellJammer setting?. Please be brief so as not to irritate the great Alaundo.

Good learning...



- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs



Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 25 May 2003 08:11:14
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Zaknafein
Learned Scribe

USA
77 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2003 :  04:45:37  Show Profile  Visit Zaknafein's Homepage Send Zaknafein a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ok great. you have my thanks

and yes i do look forward in finding and reading the Netheril Trilogy


Zaknafein Do'Urden: mentor, teacher, friend....To Zak, the one who inspired my courage. -Drizzt Do'Urden

Full plate and packing steel.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5760 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2003 :  07:01:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Faraer, great to have you here!

Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2003 :  04:05:48  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Hey Faraer, great to have you here!

Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.

-- George Krashos




George you are SOOOO correct. I felt a little ripped off when I was reading the NORTH boxed set and some or excuse me MOST of the towns matched Volos guide WORD FOR WORD on the descriptions, where volos guide did them as well. This was also during the TSR DARK time as I like to call it. That product made me quite sure that TSR did not take the readers seriously, and assumed we were all idiots. If you had Volo's guide there was no reason to buy the north.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! I was not sure that anyone else realised this and it was Frustrating.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2003 :  17:35:41  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks George, though it's a little dusty in here.

Yes, The North helped to establish the misconception that further books on already described regions were bound to be repetitive and redundant, and Netheril contributed to the end of the Arcane Age line, which didn't make you happy. Remind us which ancient drow city was next on the list? I still think Delzoun was the obvious choice, as it could have shored up the history of the North, given dwarf lore for contemporary campaigns, provided one of those dungeons I want to see, and counterbalanced the infantilist elf bias.

Would you believe I'd like to see that Netheril handout? And does "Dungeon of the Hark" have a map?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5760 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2003 :  17:03:22  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Faraer.

The next Arcane Age project that never quite got there was "Telantiwar" - the cavern of the drow that became the Great Rift. Some of the material from that project made it into Empires of the Shining South and Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark.

Eric did tell me way back when that he had a CC2 version of the map but as I don't have that program, I didn't get it off him....

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2003 :  13:42:07  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a real shame that all the information that was meant for that Arcane Age product you mentioned George was not reprinted elsewhere. I studied the specific details you mentioned were included in those other sourcebooks, but still I would have like more. The cavern of the Great Rift, is one of my favorite areas of the southern Realms.

Good learning...



- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs


Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5760 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2003 :  09:21:55  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wholeheartedly agree with you Sage of Perth. The Great Rift .... dawrves in general in fact. FR11 is one of my all time favourite FR products. An update of FR11 with new info on extant clans and holdings of the dwarves would be a brilliant 3E product IMHO.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2003 :  09:40:23  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dwarves Deep was also one of my favorite FR products too. Ed Greenwood's work on the early products of FR never ceases to amaze me.

I agree that an updated Dwarves Deep tome would be a fantastic sourcebook also. In fact if they did update the material for 3e, Ed would have to be the one to write it. A great addition to his first work.



May your learning be free and unfettered


Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2003 :  23:38:03  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mournblade:
quote:
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! I was not sure that anyone else realised this and it was Frustrating.

It must have been frustrating for to you capitalize it.

Zaknafein, you might as well get How the Mighty Are Fallen while you're at it.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  04:27:11  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Krashos,

Is there somewhere that the hand-out you reference here within, is available? I can't think of many things that I would love to see more than that artifact of lore! I imagine you treasure that greatly.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Hey Faraer, great to have you here!

Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.

-- George Krashos



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5760 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  06:19:17  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  11:58:01  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Krashos,

I envy your possession of that! That is so absolutely great.

By the way: thank you for all of the amazing works that you have put together and submitted to this site. They are wonderful.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.

-- George Krashos


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2148 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  14:00:42  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Hey Faraer, great to have you here!

Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.

-- George Krashos




Totally in agreement.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8683 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2018 :  23:47:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.

-- George Krashos



You hit on the one thing there that I would have love to have seen some serious info on... Netherese Mantle Magics.... I remember looking at the "magic of incarnum" book and thinking that conceptually it was a system that might have worked towards a "mantle bearer" concept... granted a baby version in the making... but there's a nice "idea" in there. That's not to say of course that I don't love the concept of using contingent spell affects with mantles like what was done with Lost Empires of Faerun, but I think there should be some mixing of the two concepts.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2018 :  00:31:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

I concur wholeheartedly! To see something concrete on mantle magic would have been nothing short of epic. The Silver and especially Golden era's of the Netheril Empire are called as much for a very good reason.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.

-- George Krashos



You hit on the one thing there that I would have love to have seen some serious info on... Netherese Mantle Magics.... I remember looking at the "magic of incarnum" book and thinking that conceptually it was a system that might have worked towards a "mantle bearer" concept... granted a baby version in the making... but there's a nice "idea" in there. That's not to say of course that I don't love the concept of using contingent spell affects with mantles like what was done with Lost Empires of Faerun, but I think there should be some mixing of the two concepts.



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5760 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2018 :  01:08:26  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did a write-up of my take on mantle magic using 3E Epic magic and that's in my thread here at the 'Keep.

Doesn't really work in 5E so haven't bothered updating it.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2018 :  01:19:45  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Krashos,

I really appreciate you letting me know that. I will certainly check that out. I've greatly appreciated your other works. Thank you for making me aware of that!

As always, best regards.



quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I did a write-up of my take on mantle magic using 3E Epic magic and that's in my thread here at the 'Keep.

Doesn't really work in 5E so haven't bothered updating it.

-- George Krashos


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2020 :  07:47:13  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Krashos,

Revitalizing this for another question: any chance you might consider updating it to the older 3.5/PF 1st systems? Some of us are still never-adopters. haha

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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