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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  23:53:37  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Drow don't lack schemes, plotting and what you talked about when describing Lolth, they lack concrete motivation for doing so, just like their goddess.

When you talked about Gruumsh, you pointed out many aspects of what he represents that can actually give goals which are valid and concrete motivations for his followers to act (motivations which give depth to the characters). However the traits you describe for Lolth are ultimately tools for the only thing she wants to achieve: dominating the whole world to boost her ego, i.e. acting for 'teh evulz'. It is not the ability to achieve the goal that is missing here, but a valid reason who brings the character to want and work to achieve it (which appears to be just pleasing one's ego, in this case).

While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).

At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.

Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...

PS: Chaos and fate aren't in contradiction as I see it: chaotic events do have a definite ending ('fate'), even tho it's basically impossible to predict it.



To an extent I agree with you; while I think the potential for someone smarter than me to give Lolth depth and a variety of motivations is there, I do think Lolth as she stands is one of the more limited gods in the Toril pantheon.

Honestly I've never felt she should have been elevated to Greater God status specifically for that reason; she appeals to too narrow a demographic to reach that status in my opinion, though I suspect it's mostly to do with her impersonating other gods.

As for fate and chaos, I believe they contradict on these grounds; to me, fate implies a plan, a greater chain of events set in to motion by an unseen hand with a definite end goal. There's an order and structure to it, even if we can't see it. Chaos, things just happen. There's no rhyme, no reason, no forethought or planning, things just happen.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1731 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2012 :  02:22:22  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is some bias on my part, because I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee far better than I like Lolth (and spiders scare me), and I like drow, which is why I want them to have more variety and choice than just Lolth. It’s stupid not to have a big event like what happened in LP and not follow up on it. That leaves a lot of people hanging, and while not everyone likes drow, they are popular. I understand WotC can’t please everyone, I understand—there are things I didn’t like that other people are quite happy about, and visa versa—but…seriously. CoA, while I am no fan of Gruumsh or orcs, I think it’s cool you’ve made them more than killing brutes, and that they actually have a culture, and a reason for doing things.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).

At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.

Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...



I agree with this, and reworking Lolth, so to speak, would be a big change in and of itself. I mean, yeah, deities change portfolios (be it through stealing or otherwise), but Lolth taking on V and E’s portfolio would be just as bad as not having them at all. Lolth cannot stand for both her ideals AND those of her offspring. That would be…I have no words for it. And as I’ve said before, V and E are tied to Lolth. They are her OFFSPRING, and directly oppose her. There is not a story about their followers that don’t somehow involve Lolth or her followers. I mean, yeah, the “changed” drow could follow the Seldarine, but that probably won’t be addressed either. And I’m still hung up about the soul idea too. Non-Lolthites, religious or not, should have somewhere else to go. Another god (or demon), can come and take them, but Lolth usually seems to be the “default”. I doubt most males worship Lolth, but she still takes their souls.

And it’s just a bad business move, IMO. Drow are popular, and V and E were popular. I don’t want them to off Lolth—much as I hate her—but there should be more of a variety. If they still want drow to be scheming, they can get that with E and V. Eilistraeens are schemers in their own right. It’s just a bad move. Not a complete deal breaker, but WotC should be careful. It’s hard enough for them to bring people back after being disappointed by 4e.



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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2012 :  02:11:03  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that in general drow are one of D&D's most developed races. Between novels and game product, I would argue that the drow have received more development attention than any other race. Even Lolth worshiping drow are more than one trick ponies, however the pantheon reduction in general didn't expand the drow. It cut away some of the complexity that various authors over the editions added into drow society in Realms. I don't see the need for the drow to lose their iconic deities in Realms when settings like Greyhawk exist that already have the Lolth only situation covered.

Tarlyn Embersun
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2558 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2012 :  02:31:20  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

There is some bias on my part, because I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee far better than I like Lolth (and spiders scare me), and I like drow, which is why I want them to have more variety and choice than just Lolth. It’s stupid not to have a big event like what happened in LP and not follow up on it. That leaves a lot of people hanging, and while not everyone likes drow, they are popular. I understand WotC can’t please everyone, I understand—there are things I didn’t like that other people are quite happy about, and visa versa—but…seriously. CoA, while I am no fan of Gruumsh or orcs, I think it’s cool you’ve made them more than killing brutes, and that they actually have a culture, and a reason for doing things.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).

At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.

Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...



I agree with this, and reworking Lolth, so to speak, would be a big change in and of itself. I mean, yeah, deities change portfolios (be it through stealing or otherwise), but Lolth taking on V and E’s portfolio would be just as bad as not having them at all. Lolth cannot stand for both her ideals AND those of her offspring. That would be…I have no words for it. And as I’ve said before, V and E are tied to Lolth. They are her OFFSPRING, and directly oppose her. There is not a story about their followers that don’t somehow involve Lolth or her followers. I mean, yeah, the “changed” drow could follow the Seldarine, but that probably won’t be addressed either. And I’m still hung up about the soul idea too. Non-Lolthites, religious or not, should have somewhere else to go. Another god (or demon), can come and take them, but Lolth usually seems to be the “default”. I doubt most males worship Lolth, but she still takes their souls.

And it’s just a bad business move, IMO. Drow are popular, and V and E were popular. I don’t want them to off Lolth—much as I hate her—but there should be more of a variety. If they still want drow to be scheming, they can get that with E and V. Eilistraeens are schemers in their own right. It’s just a bad move. Not a complete deal breaker, but WotC should be careful. It’s hard enough for them to bring people back after being disappointed by 4e.






Honestly, I don't want E and V back only in relation to Lolth. They stand for valid concepts on their own, and not everything they or their followers do is geared toward that conflict (and I don't really see why Eilistraee should seek war with Lolth). They represent the act of forging one's own path, fighting for one's own choices and freedom either trough love and creation (not stupid good mode, tho...), or through violence. I'd like to see this played out both inside the drow society and out of it, in relation with the rest of Faerun (keeping in mind that such drow should be few, tho). Having everything drow-related involve Lolth got tiresome and annoying.


Also, having Lolth reworked into something more than 'I want powah and act for teh evulz to boost my ego' would be cool.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 28 Nov 2012 02:36:01
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2012 :  04:04:35  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But at her core, Lolth IS about ego. She is the "classic spoiled princess" type, who throws a tantrum when she doesn't get what she wants. That is her prime character trait. On the surface, it seems trite and one-dimensional, but it's the root of her personality, and thus, drives everything she does. She can't stand losing, wants to be on top of the world, and is spiteful, petulant, and petty. That is simply her nature. She's the archtypical bitter ex, and just wants to get back at the one she feels spurned by. She feels angry, ignored, and unjustly punished. Her entire existance has become about reclaiming what she feels was taken from her unfairly. OF COURSE she is going to encourage her followers to do the same!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2558 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2012 :  09:58:07  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^Yeah, and that's a really interesting kind of villain, isn't it? It reminds me of the antagonist in some Disney stories for children. Her concept doesn't deserve all the attention it gets, IMO.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Shere Khan
Seeker

36 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2012 :  16:17:26  Show Profile  Visit Shere Khan's Homepage Send Shere Khan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

^Yeah, and that's a really interesting kind of villain, isn't it? It reminds me of the antagonist in some Disney stories for children. Her concept doesn't deserve all the attention it gets, IMO.



Except unlike Disney characters, women with personalities very much like Lolth's do exist in real life. I've known one or two in my time, and they're scary. Their friends, their husbands, and even their children are just tools to be manipulated in order to further their own aggrandizement, and the more power they manage to accumulate, the more dangerous they become. A few of them are even willing to poison their own children in order to gain your sympathy (Munchausen by proxy). Most of these spiteful creatures are too broken to terrorize anyone beyond their immediate families and a few "friends" or "lovers" who are foolish enough to do their bidding, but those that are better at appearing normal sometimes manage to acquire real power, and then things can get really ugly.

Edited by - Shere Khan on 28 Nov 2012 16:19:23
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2558 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2012 :  16:29:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wasn't saying that Lolth personality is 'unrealistic'(both in men and women), but that I consider it boring and depth-less, not deserving all the attention it gets. All of this IMO, ofc.

Even if something could be found in RL, it shouldn't automatically be there in fantasy as well.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 28 Nov 2012 16:30:43
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Shere Khan
Seeker

36 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2012 :  17:48:00  Show Profile  Visit Shere Khan's Homepage Send Shere Khan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I wasn't saying that Lolth personality is 'unrealistic'(both in men and women), but that I consider it boring and depth-less, not deserving all the attention it gets. All of this IMO, ofc.

Even if something could be found in RL, it shouldn't automatically be there in fantasy as well.



While the trope doesn't resonate with you, it does resonate with a very large proportion of the population. In fact it's a staple in programming aimed at the female demographic (eg. Lifetime Television, or even the recent Snow White and the Huntsman), and lots of men enjoy it too. Furthermore, I disagree that it is boring or depthless. Highly twisted individuals can be some of the most fascinating to read, as long as the author writing them takes the effort to make them come alive.




Edited by - Shere Khan on 28 Nov 2012 17:48:31
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2558 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2012 :  20:12:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, that's why I said that what I wrote is all in my opinion. I realize that people like Lolth, and that's fine ofc, but as I see it she gets too much development for what she offers (she is a 'for the evil' kind of villain, whose personality is all about 1 thing and has never grown up to now, and whose motivation do lack depth, being basically a mix of madness and vanity).

I'm fine with insane villains, but I'd like them to stay in the background, not as the #1 threat. Personally, I think that antagonists with concrete motivation and goal can add much more depth than 'ancient uber evils' or Lolth-like characters.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1731 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2012 :  04:33:23  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

There is some bias on my part, because I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee far better than I like Lolth (and spiders scare me), and I like drow, which is why I want them to have more variety and choice than just Lolth. It’s stupid not to have a big event like what happened in LP and not follow up on it. That leaves a lot of people hanging, and while not everyone likes drow, they are popular. I understand WotC can’t please everyone, I understand—there are things I didn’t like that other people are quite happy about, and visa versa—but…seriously. CoA, while I am no fan of Gruumsh or orcs, I think it’s cool you’ve made them more than killing brutes, and that they actually have a culture, and a reason for doing things.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).

At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.

Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...



I agree with this, and reworking Lolth, so to speak, would be a big change in and of itself. I mean, yeah, deities change portfolios (be it through stealing or otherwise), but Lolth taking on V and E’s portfolio would be just as bad as not having them at all. Lolth cannot stand for both her ideals AND those of her offspring. That would be…I have no words for it. And as I’ve said before, V and E are tied to Lolth. They are her OFFSPRING, and directly oppose her. There is not a story about their followers that don’t somehow involve Lolth or her followers. I mean, yeah, the “changed” drow could follow the Seldarine, but that probably won’t be addressed either. And I’m still hung up about the soul idea too. Non-Lolthites, religious or not, should have somewhere else to go. Another god (or demon), can come and take them, but Lolth usually seems to be the “default”. I doubt most males worship Lolth, but she still takes their souls.

And it’s just a bad business move, IMO. Drow are popular, and V and E were popular. I don’t want them to off Lolth—much as I hate her—but there should be more of a variety. If they still want drow to be scheming, they can get that with E and V. Eilistraeens are schemers in their own right. It’s just a bad move. Not a complete deal breaker, but WotC should be careful. It’s hard enough for them to bring people back after being disappointed by 4e.






Honestly, I don't want E and V back only in relation to Lolth. They stand for valid concepts on their own, and not everything they or their followers do is geared toward that conflict (and I don't really see why Eilistraee should seek war with Lolth). They represent the act of forging one's own path, fighting for one's own choices and freedom either trough love and creation (not stupid good mode, tho...), or through violence. I'd like to see this played out both inside the drow society and out of it, in relation with the rest of Faerun (keeping in mind that such drow should be few, tho). Having everything drow-related involve Lolth got tiresome and annoying.


Also, having Lolth reworked into something more than 'I want powah and act for teh evulz to boost my ego' would be cool.



Oh yeah, I like V and E for what they stand for, and what their followers fight for. But since WotC doesn't plan on writing anything drow related that isn't tied to Lolth, I was using the argument that they ARE tied to her, so it doesn't make sense to exclude them. Even if Lolth doesn't actually appear in any of the novels, V and Es followers have their ideals, and they try to convert Lolthites, or fight against them.

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Thoth
Acolyte

Canada
13 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  11:14:43  Show Profile Send Thoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL! With all the canceling going on, I'll be happy with any novels now...
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2558 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  13:21:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thoth

LOL! With all the canceling going on, I'll be happy with any novels now...



On the topic of this thread, the return of the drow gods and the new alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun deserves a novel on its own, rather than just a few lines cattered here and there. But yeah, it's very unlikely that we'll ever get that.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

647 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  04:43:22  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None. I'm so sick of the drow. Add Tieflings to that as well. They can all go away. But it doesn't matter. We will get no more FR novels.
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