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Euranna
Learned Scribe

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  01:01:24  Show Profile Send Euranna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like my drow evil. But I too am interested in what became of the redeemed dark elves. Or even the drow that worshipped the Dark Maiden when she died (and were not of the blood line that was redeemed).
Of course, I am not saying that all I want to see if drow.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  04:05:34  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drow make good "villains", but I like to see a dose of good drow too. WotSQ and LP were some of my favorite Realms novels. Even if there were "issues" with LP, it would still be nice to see a continuation of the series. Sometimes loose ends are okay, but when you have a series that obviously needs more of an explanation (and LP is not the only one), it can lead to disappointment.

Perhaps it is too soon to jump to conclusions, but if what Brian R James says is indeed true, it renders other threads here null.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Shere Khan
Seeker

36 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  05:10:33  Show Profile  Visit Shere Khan's Homepage Send Shere Khan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The following is merely my opinion, but it's a strongly held one:

More high profile good Drow running around on the surface is precisely what I don't want to see. The extremely rare exceptions should stay extremely rare exceptions, and not turn into a new norm. Drow that are evil, or at least neutral (unaligned as they call it these days), I don't mind. Give me evil with charm like Jarlaxle or Pharaun, not rainbows and unicorns (that's what eladrins are for), not gullibly naive evangelists (Eilstraee and her priestesses were all but begging to die in WotSQ) , and definitely not more noble, angst-ridden, congenitally-good battle-gods (one Drizzt is plenty).

Edited by - Shere Khan on 13 Nov 2012 05:13:58
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  07:29:02  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Good drow? Meh. Non-evil but chaotic/neutral is okay, but lawful good? No-no.

Every beginning has an end.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1475 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  07:53:32  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Yay! So cool... They really know how to listen to customers and their own authors. Whatever pleases them.

And at this point I'd really like to know the reason for this 'hatred' towards anything drow-ish non Lolth based, considering that many people happen to enjoy such things. This kind of attitude doesn't have any purpose as I see it, except getting on some people's nerves.
No reason. Just random fan****. There was Magic of StarWarnum, there was rather boring "kabbalistique" stuffing mixed with painful immaturity in BoED/BoVD, there were "Sin Eaters of Eilistraee", and next generation is going to be... dunno, Twilight fans, maybe?
So, just like other lulz, but from entitled folk who know better. As usual.
Either that, or some obscure point from the same department as "there's no such thing as Lawful Evil".

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2714 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  09:27:34  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody. I really don't see how this can make the situation worse, all it does is making it infinitely more interesting than 'drow = all Lolth puppets but 2-3 super guys', it adds depth to a flat race and it is characteristic of the Forgotten Realms. Seriously, I don't get why some people deem good drow harmful or absurd (like if it's so unthinkable of someone who got rid of Lolth indoctrination to help someone in need instead of telling him/her 'screw you'): having a -small- group of them can actually lead to interesting plots (something that the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun-archfey solution would've accomplished just fine, but they cut it anyway). Also it's up to the DM to choose what to include in the setting; people who want a little more material about this matter don't have such a choice.

Also there's the fact that -face it- a race completely made up of people who go 'mwahaha for powah' all day long, or neutral at best is cheap and rather trivial.

Anyway this is kinda pointless, since Wizards probably won't listen.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 13 Nov 2012 09:55:37
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1475 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  09:57:19  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody.
Far from "few", but yeah - these ladies aren't here just for moonlit fanservice. They are mostly converted Lolthites and as such tend to be equally or more jumpy, for one. As in "Seven Sisters", and "Silverfall", etc. Those in "Starlight and Shadows" and "War of the Spider Queen" were hot-blooded and excitable too.
So it's kind of cool. Anyway, it looks like many of us like our drow keen and CN - such as Jarlaxle, early Liriel and Pharaun.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Seriously, I don't get why some people deem good drow harmful or absurd (like if it's so unthinkable of someone who got rid of Lolth indoctrination to help someone in need instead of telling him/her 'screw you')
Also, it's not like the Multiverse leaves them no choice but the traditional drow gods. It's just for loners or communities other than theocratic cities. As was mentioned above, there are trade companies, mercenaries, Sshamath, places with mixed population like Skullport...
And yeah, for "zomg, Dark Powers bothered to set me up again!" there's Ravenloft.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2714 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  10:22:53  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody.
Far from "few", but yeah - these ladies aren't here just for moonlit fanservice. They are mostly converted Lolthites and as such tend to be equally or more jumpy, for one. As in "Seven Sisters", and "Silverfall", etc. Those in "Starlight and Shadows" and "War of the Spider Queen" were hot-blooded and excitable too.
So it's kind of cool. Anyway, it looks like many of us like our drow keen and CN - such as Jarlaxle, early Liriel and Pharaun.




Many people enjoy Eilistraeens as well for the struggle for freedom they represent. Also, good people can be keen too (and must be so in order to survive). And actually the majority of converted Eilistraeens should be CN-like (a bit like Liriel) rather than good.

About the percentages, they should have just shrunk them. Removing them from the setting was a bad move which made the drow way poorer.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Shere Khan
Seeker

36 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  20:56:03  Show Profile  Visit Shere Khan's Homepage Send Shere Khan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody. I really don't see how this can make the situation worse, all it does is making it infinitely more interesting than 'drow = all Lolth puppets but 2-3 super guys', it adds depth to a flat race and it is characteristic of the Forgotten Realms.


I don't have an issue with Eilistraee in theory. I think she fills a useful niche. What I don't like is when she and her priestesses are depicted as gullibly naive starry-eyed fools as they were in WotSQ. Eilstraee has been dealing with her mother's treachery for millenia. Converted Lolthian drow like Hallistra were weaned on treachery and would never have survived to become and hold the position of first daughter without a great deal of skill at intrigue. Lolth is a goddess who embraces treachery among other things, and Eilstraee's priestesses should well know what they're up against when dealing with Lolthian drow. And yet, it was as if they were all hit with a stupid stick and lobotomized in WotSQ, including Hallistra herself after she converted.

quote:
Seriously, I don't get why some people deem good drow harmful or absurd (like if it's so unthinkable of someone who got rid of Lolth indoctrination to help someone in need instead of telling him/her 'screw you'):


Of course Lolth's high priestesses, weaned on betrayal and treachery, will never ever pretend to convert in order to slaughter lots of Eilestraeen heretics, or simply to temporarily save their own skins.

quote:
having a -small- group of them can actually lead to interesting plots


Sure, as long as the group remains small, clearly understands that it is the underdog, and doesn't suddenly start dreaming that they can take out Lolth herself by naively trusting a newly converted ex-high priestess of Lolth with a god-slaying weapon.

quote:
(something that the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun-archfey solution would've accomplished just fine, but they cut it anyway). Also it's up to the DM to choose what to include in the setting; people who want a little more material about this matter don't have such a choice.


I'm fine with bringing E & V back. I actually like both of them. I just dislike the way they've been depicted at times, especially in WotSQ. I expect V to be more subtle and less rash (although I suppose it's possible much of his behavior was an act), and I expect E to play a long game against her mother's superior power, and not to gamble everything on a naive and foolhardy gambit with very bad odds.

quote:
Also there's the fact that -face it- a race completely made up of people who go 'mwahaha for powah' all day long, or neutral at best is cheap and rather trivial.


And somehow noble self-sacrificing heroes with 21st century Hollywood morals are less trivial and boringly predictable? Few things annoy me as much as characters infused with 21st century political correctness that never had the benefit of a 21st century upbringing. Count me among the legion of fans who were annoyed when Han Solo was edited to not have shot first in the new release of Star Wars. Good guys aren't supposed to shoot first you see, it sets a bad example for the children who are watching... *eyeroll* And of course if the bad guy points a weapon at a hostage the good guy -must- drop his weapon. (Luckily bad guys in film are always too stupid, cue corny laughter, to immediately shoot the good guy once he disarms himself.) If actual cops and soldiers ascribed to Hollywood morality, there'd be a lot more dead cops and soldiers in this world.

quote:
Anyway this is kinda pointless, since Wizards probably won't listen.



Sad, but most likely true.

Edited by - Shere Khan on 13 Nov 2012 21:12:43
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2714 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  22:32:00  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody. I really don't see how this can make the situation worse, all it does is making it infinitely more interesting than 'drow = all Lolth puppets but 2-3 super guys', it adds depth to a flat race and it is characteristic of the Forgotten Realms.


I don't have an issue with Eilistraee in theory. I think she fills a useful niche. What I don't like is when she and her priestesses are depicted as gullibly naive starry-eyed fools as they were in WotSQ. Eilstraee has been dealing with her mother's treachery for millenia. Converted Lolthian drow like Hallistra were weaned on treachery and would never have survived to become and hold the position of first daughter without a great deal of skill at intrigue. Lolth is a goddess who embraces treachery among other things, and Eilstraee's priestesses should well know what they're up against when dealing with Lolthian drow. And yet, it was as if they were all hit with a stupid stick and lobotomized in WotSQ, including Hallistra herself after she converted.

quote:
Seriously, I don't get why some people deem good drow harmful or absurd (like if it's so unthinkable of someone who got rid of Lolth indoctrination to help someone in need instead of telling him/her 'screw you'):


Of course Lolth's high priestesses, weaned on betrayal and treachery, will never ever pretend to convert in order to slaughter lots of Eilestraeen heretics, or simply to temporarily save their own skins.

quote:
having a -small- group of them can actually lead to interesting plots


Sure, as long as the group remains small, clearly understands that it is the underdog, and doesn't suddenly start dreaming that they can take out Lolth herself by naively trusting a newly converted ex-high priestess of Lolth with a god-slaying weapon.

quote:
(something that the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun-archfey solution would've accomplished just fine, but they cut it anyway). Also it's up to the DM to choose what to include in the setting; people who want a little more material about this matter don't have such a choice.


I'm fine with bringing E & V back. I actually like both of them. I just dislike the way they've been depicted at times, especially in WotSQ. I expect V to be more subtle and less rash (although I suppose it's possible much of his behavior was an act), and I expect E to play a long game against her mother's superior power, and not to gamble everything on a naive and foolhardy gambit with very bad odds.


quote:
Anyway this is kinda pointless, since Wizards probably won't listen.



Sad, but most likely true.



Yes, I agree with you on their depiction. Neither E nor V were given a good portrayal in those novels. But hey: the whole thing to take out Lolth by trusting a not so smart and loyal converted priestess was just a deus ex machina to remove them from canon, so no big surprise to me. Also, yes: they should indeed be rebels and underdogs, it's part of what make them interesting.

quote:

quote:
Also there's the fact that -face it- a race completely made up of people who go 'mwahaha for powah' all day long, or neutral at best is cheap and rather trivial.


And somehow noble self-sacrificing heroes with 21st century Hollywood morals are less trivial and boringly predictable? Few things annoy me as much as characters infused with 21st century political correctness that never had the benefit of a 21st century upbringing. Count me among the legion of fans who were annoyed when Han Solo was edited to not have shot first in the new release of Star Wars. Good guys aren't supposed to shoot first you see, it sets a bad example for the children who are watching... *eyeroll* And of course if the bad guy points a weapon at a hostage the good guy -must- drop his weapon. (Luckily bad guys in film are always too stupid, cue corny laughter, to immediately shoot the good guy once he disarms himself.) If actual cops and soldiers ascribed to Hollywood morality, there'd be a lot more dead cops and soldiers in this world.



True, both stereotypes are cheap. I like 'good' guys to use violence when needed and even go 'shoot-first, talk after' as long as it is appropriate and not just to show how 'badass and shady' they are. I like evil guys to not be 'evulz' but to have concrete reasons for what they do, not some generic 'power and riches'.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 13 Nov 2012 22:44:13
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  22:34:19  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It probably is pointless, I agree, but it doesn't mean I won't rant about it This is something I feel strongly about.

Not everyone likes drow, and not everyone cares about E and V, but they are nevertheless popular enough, at least IMO, to make people want more. I'm not asking for goody-goody drow. Jarlaxle and Phaeraun (and the poor guy died twice) were some of my favorite characters too, along with Q'arlynd. But there were quite a few Eilistraeens I liked too--I was never too fond of Hilisstra, no matter which goddess she followed.

Having every drow book (except for maybe Drizzt) be about Lolthites and no more about Elisitraee or Vhaeraun--or any rebel drow, for that matter--will get just as old as having all Eilistraeens be goody-goody. If WotC is looking for balance, they aren't going to get it this way. I was sincerely hoping the drow would make a comeback in 5e, and with the rumors of the Sundering bringing back the gods, I was hoping that includes V and E. But now, if there isn't going to be anything about them or their followers, what is the point?

And E and V ARE tied to Lolth, as I've said. Every drow book I've read about non-Lolthite drow feature Lolthites as well. E and V being tied to Lolth is huge, IMO, so Wizards is making a huge mistake, IMO, and not to step on any toes, but at least in my opinion, if this proves true, it's the stupidest move since the Spellplague.

Had to get that off my chest.

Sweet water and light laughter
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1475 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2012 :  20:34:27  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan

and Eilstraee's priestesses should well know what they're up against when dealing with Lolthian drow. And yet, it was as if they were all hit with a stupid stick and lobotomized in WotSQ, including Hallistra herself after she converted.
That part made me wonder, too. Though at least they still were gregarious and over-excitable, so if told "lookit, da prophecy is upon us!"... this could be a toss.
But yeah, despite a few good twists, too many idiot balls were played. Paving the way for the absurdist comedy gold published as sequels and for everything grinding to halt due to subsequent shyness about this crazy stuff failing to lead anywhere meaningful at all.

quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan

Count me among the legion of fans who were annoyed when Han Solo was edited to not have shot first in the new release of Star Wars.
Han Solo: Yeah. Why wouldn't I?
Darth Vader: I, eh... I don't know the answer on that.
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan

Good guys aren't supposed to shoot first you see, it sets a bad example for the children who are watching... *eyeroll*
Well, duh. Didn't your school teach that one should never fight bullies back, the only protection is complaining to the Big Br Schoolmarms, if they feel like it? This counts toward "no such thing as LE" part, though.
Wait... a sequel had the "took a baby from the mom 'cause they're the good guys and know better" one, right? I guess under Hasbro this gave it unshakeable retcon-immunity, too.
By de name - the only one meme still left out is some variation of "overkill everyone including babies, because everyone there is mind-controlled by vile illithids from space (ah, right) from the Cthulhu Land"... Ugh, if i wanted comics with Small-Headed Ubermensch who can't even sort out their own pants protecting the Unworthy Sheeple from Mwahaha-ing Clowns, i'd read these comics. Oh, well... <sigh>

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2012 :  10:44:06  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

It probably is pointless, I agree, but it doesn't mean I won't rant about it This is something I feel strongly about.

Not everyone likes drow, and not everyone cares about E and V, but they are nevertheless popular enough, at least IMO, to make people want more. I'm not asking for goody-goody drow. Jarlaxle and Phaeraun (and the poor guy died twice) were some of my favorite characters too, along with Q'arlynd. But there were quite a few Eilistraeens I liked too--I was never too fond of Hilisstra, no matter which goddess she followed.

Having every drow book (except for maybe Drizzt) be about Lolthites and no more about Elisitraee or Vhaeraun--or any rebel drow, for that matter--will get just as old as having all Eilistraeens be goody-goody. If WotC is looking for balance, they aren't going to get it this way. I was sincerely hoping the drow would make a comeback in 5e, and with the rumors of the Sundering bringing back the gods, I was hoping that includes V and E. But now, if there isn't going to be anything about them or their followers, what is the point?

And E and V ARE tied to Lolth, as I've said. Every drow book I've read about non-Lolthite drow feature Lolthites as well. E and V being tied to Lolth is huge, IMO, so Wizards is making a huge mistake, IMO, and not to step on any toes, but at least in my opinion, if this proves true, it's the stupidest move since the Spellplague.

Had to get that off my chest.



I agree completely. But alas, Wizards are not known to go back on what they decided upon.

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2012 :  11:54:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

It probably is pointless, I agree, but it doesn't mean I won't rant about it This is something I feel strongly about.

Not everyone likes drow, and not everyone cares about E and V, but they are nevertheless popular enough, at least IMO, to make people want more. I'm not asking for goody-goody drow. Jarlaxle and Phaeraun (and the poor guy died twice) were some of my favorite characters too, along with Q'arlynd. But there were quite a few Eilistraeens I liked too--I was never too fond of Hilisstra, no matter which goddess she followed.

Having every drow book (except for maybe Drizzt) be about Lolthites and no more about Elisitraee or Vhaeraun--or any rebel drow, for that matter--will get just as old as having all Eilistraeens be goody-goody. If WotC is looking for balance, they aren't going to get it this way. I was sincerely hoping the drow would make a comeback in 5e, and with the rumors of the Sundering bringing back the gods, I was hoping that includes V and E. But now, if there isn't going to be anything about them or their followers, what is the point?

And E and V ARE tied to Lolth, as I've said. Every drow book I've read about non-Lolthite drow feature Lolthites as well. E and V being tied to Lolth is huge, IMO, so Wizards is making a huge mistake, IMO, and not to step on any toes, but at least in my opinion, if this proves true, it's the stupidest move since the Spellplague.

Had to get that off my chest.



I agree completely. But alas, Wizards are not known to go back on what they decided upon.



You mean things like no RSEs or leaving Sembia alone?

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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
483 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2012 :  22:08:32  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Say what? O.0 so does that mean Eilistraee and Vhaeraun won't be coming back, even in the Sundering? WotC could lose a lot of valuable costumers if they only focused on Lolth, IMO.


WotC not making novels/material about them after the Sundering doesn't mean that they won't come back.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2012 :  04:18:53  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Say what? O.0 so does that mean Eilistraee and Vhaeraun won't be coming back, even in the Sundering? WotC could lose a lot of valuable costumers if they only focused on Lolth, IMO.


WotC not making novels/material about them after the Sundering doesn't mean that they won't come back.



How so? If there is no material at all on them, then how are we to know? Are we just going to get a list of the drow gods, with Lolth the only one getting any attention?

Sweet water and light laughter
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
483 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2012 :  19:20:28  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

[quote]How so? If there is no material at all on them, then how are we to know? Are we just going to get a list of the drow gods, with Lolth the only one getting any attention?



/shrug

That's a definite possibility.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2012 :  14:25:00  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hopefully WotC will change their mind on the whole no support for E and V. I was really looking forward to those two regaining a decent presence in the Realms. I mean this in the least negative way possible, but that is definitely a strike 1 against FR next IMO. Not sure if it will be a deal breaker for us, but drow are strongly tied to either Lolth's influence or rebelling against it and I have several players that were big fans of E and V. I would have liked to see an early novel series in 5e FR featuring followers of E and V.

Tarlyn Embersun

Edited by - Tarlyn on 23 Nov 2012 23:17:39
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2012 :  21:47:41  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree. It's a bad move on WotC's part, and while it's not a deal breaker for me either, it's a huge disappointment, and I'm now even more skeptical about their "moving forward".

Sweet water and light laughter
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Lunarbeams
Seeker

43 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  18:01:13  Show Profile Send Lunarbeams a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem with Lloth is she makes the Drow a bit one side like a cookie cutter one dimensional and flat. I don't mind the Drow being evil but as long as done smart and intelligent way.

1. I want to know what is going on with the Drow in the Deep Wastes and Cormanthyr (simply I want to know what is going on with Fire Titans/Azer/Fire Giants in that order)


"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. "
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  18:27:22  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that's something of a cop-out, really. If not, it's passing the buck. Writers write, either out of desire or editorial mandate, drow as cookie cutter villains without depth or competency. We can point to Lolth as the blame for that, but really, it simply begs the question as to why Lolth isn't given more depth as a villain herself. Lolth's a greater goddess(somehow), she should have a broader character than what she is.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Lunarbeams
Seeker

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Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  19:07:19  Show Profile Send Lunarbeams a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I mean it is far too easy to play Priestesses of Lloth well than one of E or V. There is some allure for being a follower of an underdog gods/goddesses in the Pantheon. I mean we accepted that Lloth is evil but not the how she is evil. I mean the Priestesses are doing evil acts in her name but that is one thing. So the greatest evil in Lloth did was to betray Corellon. I prefer villains as three dimensional and not flat. There is more to the Drow being the number one bad guy of the realms my question is how they got there. I am evil because I worship an evil goddess/god does not cut it with me. And the same holds true for the good chars.

"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. "
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  21:30:23  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure if this attitude is the result of laziness on the part of the writers or is simply a hold over of the days when it was literally not allowed for them to write villains well(or at least, it wasn't allowed for them to write villains being competent); if so many years of moral guardians wanting evil being portrayed a certain way and so many years of an outdated black and white mindset towards fantasy has simply ingrained it into the consciousness of too many writers.

Now, I don't much care for drow; my favorite race being orcs/half-orcs. In my home game (and you see flashes of this in the realms, but it's rarely expanded on) I give their culture and their society a lot of depth beyond RAPE! PILLAGE! BURN! MAIM! KILL!- that's still there, in parts, but it is far from being the end all be all of orcs in my realms where I show them to be a people that encompasses all the evil and neutral alignments(only occasionally dipping into good). But here's the thing; I still keep them mostly as Gruumsh worshipers.

Now, how do I justify this? Gruumsh is a god of savagery and slaughter, which doesn't jive well with characters outside of chaotic evil. But Gruumsh is also a god of strength- is that just physical strength? Or is it mental strength, too? Can it represent social and even economic strength? Sure, why not. Gruumsh is also a god of freedom and change and self reliance. His followers believe in having the strength to carve one's own path and make one's own way and find one's own truth in the world. He's also a god of storms, and what comes with that is being a god of fertility. His storms bring rain to the land to revitalize it and make crops grow. His lightning causes forest fires, clearing the land for fresh growth fed by those ashes. He's a god of vengeance, of never forgetting slights and for retaking one's proper place- he's a god of harsh justice, a patrons for victims who wish retribution against their tormentors.

It took me ten minutes of sitting down and thinking about it to find that much depth and that much variety in a deity that so many writers pigeon hole as the brute, the dumb muscle. And I could go on.

Now lets take Lolth; at her most basic she's a goddess of betrayal; she betrayed Corellon, she betrayed Gruumsh, she encourages her own people to betray each other on a daily basis, and she betrays them constantly. But she's a goddess of schemes- plots, plans, strategy. She's a goddess of fate while at the same time being a goddess of chaos, perhaps the ultimate in contradictions. She's the goddess of opportunity and survival; she seizes upon any opening granted to her, she survives no matter how harsh and hostile her situation, even alone and without allies. She's a goddess of conquest, taking that which she desires regardless of 'right'. And of course, she's the goddess of spiders. And what are spiders? In much of mythology they're tricksters who use guile and cunning to outmaneuver their enemies. They're the ultimate trap setters and ambush predators. They're pest control, culling pestilence before it becomes an infestation.

The point is, when we look at what the character represents and get passed the basics of "they're evil for the sake of it", there is depth there, there's the potential for Lolthite characters to have any number of personalities or motivations because Lolth as a greater goddess represents a large swath of ideals. This is as it should be; greater gods need to represent a large number of ideals to attract a large number of followers. They can't send down bolts of divine retribution whenever someone decides not to worship them anymore; there needs to be something about them that makes them honestly more appealing than any other option, and in the realms there is never a shortage of options when one's out godshopping

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2714 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  22:04:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drow don't lack schemes, plotting and what you talked about when describing Lolth, they lack concrete motivation for doing so, just like their goddess.

When you talked about Gruumsh, you pointed out many aspects of what he represents that can actually give goals which are valid and concrete motivations for his followers to act (motivations which give depth to the characters). However the traits you describe for Lolth are ultimately tools for the only thing she wants to achieve: dominating the whole world to boost her ego, i.e. acting for 'teh evulz'. It is not the ability to achieve the goal that is missing here, but a valid reason who brings the character to want and work to achieve it (which appears to be just pleasing one's ego, in this case).

While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).

At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.

Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...

PS: Chaos and fate aren't in contradiction as I see it: chaotic events do have a definite ending ('fate'), even tho it's basically impossible to predict it.

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Edited by - Irennan on 26 Nov 2012 22:17:07
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Lunarbeams
Seeker

43 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  22:54:29  Show Profile Send Lunarbeams a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It simple fact why do you want that kind of power as greater goddess. I remember one time Lolth wanted the power the Corellon has as father all elves. Yeah you can have simple villains as thugs but the Drow are not stupid for the most part greedy, scheming, backstabbing and murderous. There is always a goal or a method to their madness even though the goal poorly written or explained. I agree with Irennan on this.

I had some hope to why and the motivation behind the Drow and Lolth when it came to "Rise of the Underdark."

"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. "

Edited by - Lunarbeams on 26 Nov 2012 22:56:06
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