| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Sep 2006 : 01:15:18
I recently picked up Tome of Battle and started reading it in the last week. I'm still perusing through the special maneuvers and such, and I thought initially that it was pretty unbalanced for multi-classing until I started putting together the prerequisites and such. The more I'm delving into the mechanics, the more I'm seeing a bit more balance than I initially suspected. Its also a little more complex, but I'm thinking my martial players may enjoy it (and even the non-martial ones might enjoy a brief sojourn).
With that in mind, I don't believe that there would be anything like the school mentioned in the storyline where all 9 disciplines are taught (at least, not in the realms). I see it more likely that there might be smaller versions of these schools; however, that teach subsets of these disciplines. For instance, There might be a school of crusaders and warblades that focuses on military strategy in service to the Red Knight, and they teach devoted spirit, white raven, stone dragon, and iron heart disciplines. Then, there might be another that focuses on unarmed combat that has the setting sun, tiger claw, diamond mind, and desert wind disciplines.
What I'm wondering is if anyone has put any thought into this structure for the realms. I think doing this would also put a little bit more of a hamper on the characters because they might initially be part of society X that teaches 3 of the 5 styles they have access to, but in order to learn from another discipline they'd have to make inroads with a different martial society (or more than one). Some of these schools may even have fallen, but the players may be able to learn from them by
For instance, I can see there being a society of swordsages and warblades founded in ancient Raumathar. They focused on becoming one with the elements of earth, air, fire, and time, which was also favored by the Raumathari Battlemages of the time. Many Raumathari Battlemages especially focused on the disciplines of the iron heart and diamond mind, for the bastard sword was a favored weapon of these mystic warrior-mages. This school taught the disciplines of iron heart, diamond mind, setting sun (known as Akadi's Wind) , stone dragon (known as Grumbar's Fist), and desert wind (Known as Kossuth's Rage). With the fall of Raumathar, the teachings of this society were lost as their masters fell and the students either fled or died off without passing on their teachings.
Some of these teachings were later reborn in a modern day society within Thay. The church of Kossuth initially began to uncover the secrets of the desert wind because of lore references to a lost Kossuthan fighting art(known as Kossuth's Rage, see above), but in their endeavour the swordsages of Kossuth's clergy uncovered other martial secrets from other cultures as well as the Raumatharans. Eventually, the church's militant arm, the Order of the Firedrake, began to develop the arts of the crusader. As a result, the Church of Kossuth sponsors a society which trains both swordsages and crusaders and teaches the disciplines of devoted spirit, diamond mind, setting sun (renamed the Flame Dance philosophy so as not to give influence to Akadi), and stone dragon (renamed Unrelenting Flame so as not to give influence to Grumbar).
Similarly, within Calimshan, a society of assassins delve into the studies of the Djinn and Efreeti and rediscover the art of the swordsage, teaching the disciplines of desert wind, diamond mind, setting sun,and shadow hand.
A society within Chessenta might teach the arts of the warblade, teaching the more violent arts of iron heart, stone dragon, tiger claw, and white raven. A sect devoted to Tempus may be allied with the school, producing crusaders and providing training in the devoted spirit.
The Church of the Triad in Impiltur and Damara may have a devoted sect of crusaders and offer training in devoted spirit, stone dragon, and white raven philosophies. However, these crusaders do offer to train warblades and swordsages in their maneuvers from outside their society, but only if the would-be apprentice performs a service for the church.
Any other thoughts on this concept? Anyone tried anything in this system yet and knows of some gotchas I should look for? The multi-classing piece of this that scares me, but I'm still weighing the potential versus the abuse. I can't find where it says anywhere that all of your initial maneuvers have to be 1st lvl (it expressly states this in reference to stances though, which to me would imply that maneuvers don't follow this rule).
I'm looking at the idea of NPC's who late in their adventuring career pick up a little of this training (such as a 14th lvl "fighter" type who late in life picks up a level in say warblade. He learns 3 maneuvers & 1 specifically 1st lvl stance, but they can be up to 8th lvl. However, 8th lvl maneuvers require 3 maneuvers in that discipline before you can pick one up, and a stance doesn't count. However, there is an 8th lvl stance that requires 3 maneuvers of that discipline. As an example, taking the ironheart discipline, that one level in warblade would let the character take wall of blades (2nd lvl maneuver), iron heart surge (3rd lvl maneuver which requires knowledge of 1 ironheart maneuver), and iron heart focus (6th lvl maneuver which requires knowledge of 2 ironheart maneuvers). Having learned these 3 ironheart maneuvers, and being 15th lvl, the character would have a free feat which he could put into martial stance and get the 8th lvl stance Supreme Blade Parry. This would seem to be a very nice return on investment, as you can reroll a single saving throw every encounter, turn off a spell, effect, or condition affecting you every encounter, and can try to parry a single blow for free every encounter... then for the cost of a feat get DR 5/-. Taking another level in warblade opens up the character to a new maneuver, for which he could learn strike of perfect clarity which allows the character to add +100 dmg to a single attack as part of a standard action (great for a person with spring attack and some decent speed). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 14:05:18
Mix the Shadow Hand manuvers with the Teflamm Shadow Lord Prestige class. It gives you Nightcrawler...
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| Diffan |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 11:48:17
Well to put some speculation to rest on this scroll, Eytan Bernstein did a Class Chronicles for the Tome of Battle article Here
I think it's safe to say that the mechanics can easily be incorporated into existing canon with no fuss. As for Drow using the Sublime way, I definily see them using Shadow Hand, Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and possibly Devoted Spirit (using the drow pantheon) in their Martial practices.
And if you want to take it a few steps further, I can see specific drow-style maneuvers that excell at using two-weapons, re-positioning maneuvers, and maneuvers that put their foe at some disadvantage.
For a quick example, I had a player in my campaign design his own maneuver called "Sky Hook". It wasn't overly impressive (statistics wise), but with a Jump DC, he could ignore any sort of Shield bonus the opponent may have and make a standard Melee attack. This represnted his ability to put himself at an angle that would allow him to swing his weapon around the opponent's shield (or shield-provided bonus) to score a hit. It was simple, interesting, and I allowed him to use it without having to prepare it (sorta like Spontaneous Casting).
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| Zireael |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 11:30:07
Wow, what a scroll! And it has lain here and gathered dust...
Personally, I think a great place to learn the Ninefold Way would be the City of Spiders. I made nearly all of the swordmasters here warblades. Zaknafein Do'Urden. Dantrag Baenre. Well, those names speak for themselves! |
| Zireael |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 11:29:34
Wow, what a scroll! And it has lain here and gathered dust...
Personally, I think a great place to learn the Ninefold Way would be the City of Spiders. I made nearly all of the swordmasters here warblades. Zaknafein Do'Urden. Dantrag Baenre. Well, those names speak for themselves! |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 21 Jun 2007 : 04:01:10
but why not have them fill the role of paladin in non-paladin religions? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jun 2007 : 20:35:03
>>what churches would be good fits for crusaders?
Hmmm, thinking about this brought something interesting to mind. Though many deities would ALLOW someone to learn these skills, there's a handful that would really fit for crusaders.
Garagos - there are nine disciplines known, and its hinted at that there might be a 10th discipline undiscovered. Garagos can manifest up to 10 arms. Garagos is a master of combat styles, but not necessarily tactics. When Reshar left the temple behind, did he perhaps seek a 10th discipline (perhaps the Jade Phoenix discipline combining the art with martial discipline)? Did Reshar become Garagos? If this were the case, it could help explain why the martial disciplines possibly fell by the wayside with Garagos' being defeated by Tempus. Perhaps Tempus' followers destroyed many of the monasteries that taught the sublime way as a means to weaken Garagos.
Other deities: The Red Knight & Tempus (even if the above is assumed true, if they "reteach" the arts of Garagos as if they were the loot of war...).
Anhur
elves - Corellon Larethian, Shevarash (though he is more archery oriented)
dwarves - Moradin Soulforge, Clangeddin Silverbeard, Gorm Gulthyn, Haela Brightaxe and other more martial dwarven deities,
dark elves - Selvetarm
duergar - deep duerra
Orcs - Gruumsh, Ilneval
Hobgoblins - Maglubiyet, Nomog-Geaya
Frost & Fire Giants - Surtr & Thrym
I don't see a strong link for crusaders amongst the next few, more because their race and god doesn't seem like one that would focus on developing a "special mental state" in physical combat as a goal in life, so much as they would favor fighters and such who simply focus on using their weapon as a tool.
gnomes - Gaerdal Ironhand
halflings - Arvoreen the Defender
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jun 2007 : 20:34:32
>>what churches would be good fits for crusaders?
Hmmm, thinking about this brought something interesting to mind. Though many deities would ALLOW someone to learn these skills, there's a handful that would really fit for crusaders.
Garagos - there are nine disciplines known, and its hinted at that there might be a 10th discipline undiscovered. Garagos can manifest up to 10 arms. Garagos is a master of combat styles, but not necessarily tactics. When Reshar left the temple behind, did he perhaps seek a 10th discipline (perhaps the Jade Phoenix discipline combining the art with martial discipline)? Did Reshar become Garagos? If this were the case, it could help explain why the martial disciplines possibly fell by the wayside with Garagos' being defeated by Tempus. Perhaps Tempus' followers destroyed many of the monasteries that taught the sublime way as a means to weaken Garagos.
Other deities: The Red Knight & Tempus (even if the above is assumed true, if they "reteach" the arts of Garagos as if they were the loot of war...).
Anhur
elves - Corellon Larethian, Shevarash (though he is more archery oriented)
dwarves - Moradin Soulforge, Clangeddin Silverbeard, Gorm Gulthyn, Haela Brightaxe and other more martial dwarven deities,
dark elves - Selvetarm
duergar - deep duerra
Orcs - Gruumsh, Ilneval
Hobgoblins - Maglubiyet, Nomog-Geaya
Frost & Fire Giants - Surtr & Thrym
I don't see a strong link for crusaders amongst the next few, more because their race and god doesn't seem like one that would focus on developing a "special mental state" in physical combat as a goal in life, so much as they would favor fighters and such who simply focus on using their weapon as a tool.
gnomes - Gaerdal Ironhand
halflings - Arvoreen the Defender
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| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Jun 2007 : 07:40:00
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
After reading the article on the Hordelands in Dragon 349, I'd almost be tempted to have a NEW temple of Nine Swords outside of Kourmira, due to interest that Hubadai and the Red Knight's church have in these diciplines, and they would be sending out agents to learn about the various traditions to start this up again. In this case, I would make another, ancient Temple of Nine Swords in my original location, outside of Thesk, as a ruin. In fact, it could be explorers with tales of this temple that inspired the Red Knight's followers and Hubadai to start up a new temple.
This is what I was thinking as well. The blend of traditions seems to lend itself to Semphar (and the hordelands), which has been influenced by all three campaign regions. I have had an interest in a Semphar campaign for awhile, because it is so perfectly centralized to everything else, and you could find just about anything there. Both races of Dwarves are nearby as well (regular and Korobukuro), and their are Elves up in the Pleasant Valley Oasis, as well as tribes of Lythari wandering the Wastes, so you can tie the traditions into them as well.
And lets not forget about the Fortress of the Old man.  |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 17 Jun 2007 : 04:40:59
what churches would be good fits for crusaders? |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 02 Jun 2007 : 03:36:46
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
It's not like I wrote the book :)
True, but I like your articles a great deal so far, and I'm thinking you'll inspire something in your ToB workup. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 10:23:12
It's not like I wrote the book :) |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 02:34:13
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
I'm working on the Class Chronicles entry for ToB as we speak.
Great. That might make go out and get it, that is if you peak my interest. No pressure or anything.  |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 20:27:31
I'm working on the Class Chronicles entry for ToB as we speak. |
| Eremite |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 16:42:28
I've placed the Temple of Nine Swords within the Giantspires and have it run by hobgoblins. Also, I have one of the drow houses of Undrek'thoz (the segmented city beneath Thay) as warblades and crusaders. Both of these locations were chosen because of the dual Jhaamdath/Raumathari histories of these regions. |
| questing gm |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 13:44:53
I remember a similar topic being discussed in the WoTC forum.
Although not tying the disciplines with a region but it mentioned that the warblade tradition is appropriately found in Chessenta.
Wonder if this helps... |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 13:34:41
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I like the idea of having the 9 disciplines to have existed in the realms several thousand years ago. The reinvention of the skills learned from old hermits, tomes or spirit guides (as the eternal blade prc) could give a nice explenation of the current resurgance of the martial lore of blademagic. Or the discovery of a deserted temple filled with martial scriptures...
I like that as well. Its an original idea of presenting new "stuff" to the FR |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 22:54:39
After reading the article on the Hordelands in Dragon 349, I'd almost be tempted to have a NEW temple of Nine Swords outside of Kourmira, due to interest that Hubadai and the Red Knight's church have in these diciplines, and they would be sending out agents to learn about the various traditions to start this up again. In this case, I would make another, ancient Temple of Nine Swords in my original location, outside of Thesk, as a ruin. In fact, it could be explorers with tales of this temple that inspired the Red Knight's followers and Hubadai to start up a new temple. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 22:20:57
I like the idea of having the 9 disciplines to have existed in the realms several thousand years ago. The reinvention of the skills learned from old hermits, tomes or spirit guides (as the eternal blade prc) could give a nice explenation of the current resurgance of the martial lore of blademagic. Or the discovery of a deserted temple filled with martial scriptures... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 17:13:01
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just don't do any training at Jusenkyo. Forget what the brochures say, it's a bad place to train. And I've never figured out how a duck could manage to drown there... 
Well see, if ducks drowned all the time it wouldn't matter. But when a duck drowns in a na-ni-chuan it becomes "A very tragic story of little white duck! Legend say..."
I was waiting for someone to catch that reference. |
| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 13:26:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just don't do any training at Jusenkyo. Forget what the brochures say, it's a bad place to train. And I've never figured out how a duck could manage to drown there...
Well see, if ducks drowned all the time it wouldn't matter. But when a duck drowns in a na-ni-chuan it becomes "A very tragic story of little white duck! Legend say..." |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 03:06:07
Tons of npcs I made have classes and spell lists from this supplement. I kinda stopped playing d&d recently and I don't know how long it will be before I get to pick it up again but seeing as recent realms events have to do with large scale tactics this book is pretty useful. Banners and moral bonuses introduced in this one are an idea that alot of ppl have waited for. Coupled with the Champions of Valor and champions of ruin you could create tons of banners with symbolism and in game effects. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 20:59:46
>>Not specifically, but the references to the legacy item being created on the Astral plane >>left me with a kind of "psionic-ish" feel to the discipline, and I figured if any human >>culture had dealings with the Gith, either well known speices, it might be Jamdaath, >>because they were a psionic culture. A bit of a reach, but I wanted to Jamdaath in somehow, >>since not only were they psions, but their leaders were known as bladelords . . .
Ah, VERY good point. The area is very psionically oriented as well (though some of this has to do with the yuan-ti..... but then, I could see yuan-ti also trying to rediscover this "lost jaamdathan fighting art"). I like that part VERY much. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 14:17:22
Sadly I don't plan on buying the book. A players own ideas for fighting style development is more interesting to me. Not that the book isn't helpful but it just seems so lack luster and all that. Just my opinion. But if KnightEJR and Sleyvas are looking at it this closely it might need a second look over. :) Masters at work those two. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 13:56:33
I´m wondering about the training sites for the disciplines (and my personal idea that the crusaders will be good classes for some "divine characters" of the Realms - like followers of the triad, or the Red Knight, Anhur, Clangeddin or Tempus). So, I´m thinking in develop some cultural/dogmatic diferent nomenclatures to the crusader disciplines to give them a flavor more tied with the Realms faith.  |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 03:34:20
Not specifically, but the references to the legacy item being created on the Astral plane left me with a kind of "psionic-ish" feel to the discipline, and I figured if any human culture had dealings with the Gith, either well known speices, it might be Jamdaath, because they were a psionic culture. A bit of a reach, but I wanted to Jamdaath in somehow, since not only were they psions, but their leaders were known as bladelords . . . |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Sep 2006 : 19:31:29
Thanks Knight. You definitely put some care into this. I'm not real familiar with the Kara-Tur references, but most that you mentioned as possibly coming from there definitely seem "oriental" or "ninja" -ish skills.
I was wondering on the Jaamdath reference though. My history is a little rusty, but I can vaguely recall they were a human colony that got wiped out by a tidal wave created by High Magic. Did they work with the githyanki? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Sep 2006 : 06:10:02
Analysing this in a little more depth, this is what I came up with:
Desert Wind There is a religion in Zhakara with this name, and when you read the descriptions of the tradition and its legacy weapon (weather you use it or not), it mentions a nearly mythical land of magical cities and the like. While this could apply to Calimshan, the Calishites seem more famous for magic and merchants than for developing a specific fighting style.
Devoted Spirit The PrC that plays on this style is very much tied to elves, and kind of implies that the discipline may have originated with the Tel'Quessir. That having been said, I can see this specifically being a style developed by the Avariels, since they are especially noted for their religious devotion.
Diamond Mind Again, since this one mentions the Githyanki aiding in the forging of the legacy weapon associated with the tradition, and as such as I would say that perhaps this was an ancient Jamdaathan tradition, perhaps one based on techniques learned from association with the Githyanki. Its not likely that the tradition survives in the Dalesmen or the Sembians, but somewhere masters of this dicipline passed on this tradition.
Iron Heart It is implied that the weapon associated with the style is hobgoblin in origin. We know from some hints that Ed has dropped that Hobgoblins had in the past a much more extensive society, and on top of all of this, hobgoblins are one species that is present in both eastern and western realms, meaning that its not impossible to see them having a more "eastern" feeling martial tradition.
Setting Sun While the description of the weapon doesn't fit perfectly, Setting Sun definately sounds like a dicipline that could be native to Shou Lung. There aren't many "western" Realms cultures that feel like they should have a "mystical" feeling martial class, but Shou Lung is famous for its martial arts style warriors.
Shadow Hand This one, at least to me, definately screamed out T'u Lung. Not only is T'u Lung a culture that appreciates assasinations and stealth, but Shadow Hand and Setting Sun seem to be set up as somewhat opposite dicipiles, and this opposition fits perfectly with the tension between these two nations.
Stone Dragon Stated flat out that this is a dwarven tradition, so this one was a pretty easy one.
Tiger Claw While I initially looked into this being a tradition from Estagund, as it has an Indian feel to it, and the background material on the school and its associated weapon mention rajahs and the like. The problem is that Estagund, like the rest of the Shining Lands, is very calm and structured, and the "cutting edge, harnessing the beast" aspect of this school doesn't really fit well.
When I looked at Kara-Tur, however, Kuang and Purang are both very "Indian" style cultures, and Kuang are decended from the Purang, which is a less advanced, less structured culture. While Kuang is very much locked into its caste system, they still live near the savage jungles and are near enough to the Purang to appreciate the usefulness of incorporating more feral techniques within the warrior class.
White Raven At first I was going to throw this in as another Shou dicipline, but then I looked back over some of the other comments and thought that this would actually work well as an old Raumathar style that the warriors would use to coordinate their troops while the battle wizards aided them. Again, this would be one that needed to be passed on once the culture fell apart.
The Temple of Nine Swords
I actually think that the Temple of Nine Swords could work as a concept. If a school existed at one time and masters from Jamdaath and Raumathar passed on their knowledge to this school.
To my way of thinking this would have to be in one of the far eastern nations of Faerun to make it the most usable. I'm inclined to Thesk, since in 3.5 its been emphasied as having eastern influences from the Golden Way. I would actually put the Temple of Nine Swords in the mountains in Thesk, rather than in any city, as this would both make it more of a challenge to study the diciplines, and would sidestep why it wasn't destroyed or damaged by the Tuigan.
This doesn't mean that there aren't individual sword sages, crusaders, or warblades elsewhere in the Realms, teaching individual students, but as far as learning the full range of abilities, nearly all of them would make their way at some time or another to the Temple, unless they were particularly devoted to one school or another (i.e. there may be devoted spirit only avariel instructors, or stone dragon dwarven warriors in the Great Rift, but not characters with a wide range of diciplines). |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 22:53:48
After looking through this a bit, I'm thinking about digging in and really seeing where I would think that some of these diciplines came from. One is stated as a dwarven tradition, and another is strongly hinted as being elven. I need to break out my maps, because I'm starting to think that perhaps somewhere in the Hordelands there might be some isolated monestaries that have tied together all of these techniques.
This would give dwarves a chance to have developed some of these traditions in ancient times, since this is suppose to be the first region that dwarves appeared in in Toril. For the elves, I would almost be willing to say that it wasn't just elven tradition, but perhaps Avarials specifically.
The Desert Wind style sounds very much like it could have been developed by warriors of the faith of the same name from Zhakara.
Now I just have to sit down with a few sourcebooks and some maps and figure out how these guys would meet up to trade notes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Sep 2006 : 17:14:26
Just don't do any training at Jusenkyo. Forget what the brochures say, it's a bad place to train. And I've never figured out how a duck could manage to drown there... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Sep 2006 : 15:34:02
Yeah, I'd considered doing that, but some of these disciplines just don't seem very Oriental. Of course, the ones that don't seem to fit might come from other areas (sword sages with desert wind from the southern Al-Qadim area could easily have the same stuff I mentioned for Calimshan, perhaps). Stone dragon and iron heart weapon styles also don't fit with oriental too much. |
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