| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 08:11:39
Has the structure and workings of the Watchful Order ever been set out anywhere?
I've just finished reading Blackstaff Tower, and it describes "3rd and 4th year apprentices" as if it's some sort of school - whereas I had always imagined it as a Guild of independent mages who agree to do some guild work for guild benefits. The main source I have gone off in the past is the 3e era Waterdeep sourcebook, which admittedly is set over a hundred years before Blackstaff Tower, so things may have changed.
I was considering pinging Steven Schend in his thread about it, but if anyone else has any information they can share, that would be great! |
| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 22 Jan 2019 : 11:32:50
Check out Eric Boyd's various write ups in the 3E City of Splendors - Waterdeep hardcover.
-- George Krashos |
| Starshade |
Posted - 22 Jan 2019 : 11:09:00
I had the impression Blackstaff Tower, and the Watchful Order operates as two totally independent guilds in Waterdeep, with the Watchfull Order the formal one, and the Blackstaff tower around the mage Arunsun as character, being a smaller, more elite guild. But probably in the canon, not officially recognized as such, but the best one.
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| Wenin |
Posted - 20 Jan 2019 : 04:53:00
For such an organized Guild, I'm wondering if it has ever been detailed on the names of the ranks within the guild. I figured if it had, it would have been included in the most recent content, since the DMG has a Faction/Renown system. Are there details on ranks exist? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 15:53:35
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I've just finished reading Blackstaff Tower, and it describes "3rd and 4th year apprentices" as if it's some sort of school - whereas I had always imagined it as a Guild of independent mages who agree to do some guild work for guild benefits.
It's also not a "loose association by interests" sort of a guild, but a highly organized one, with common activities and ties to local powers-that-be.
The full members could accept some common standards for the training of apprentices. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 05:30:15
Thanks all for those very helpful answers! |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 19:25:37
Also, guild members are featured heroes/villains in the Circle of Skulls novel. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 19:20:31
All the write ups I've seen of the Watchful Order make it more of a policing organization, who also do fire-fighting duty. There is a couple-page write up on them in the City Of Splendors box.
What is known of the power structure is also from that source - it is talked about a good deal in NPC write ups (very politically charged) and in the Class descriptions there are ranks for watch wizards. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 17:57:38
Good question. That being said, if you think about it, one of the best ways for a guild (of any kind) in a major metropolitan area to gain more skilled individuals is to offer training. For workers in construction / crafting jobs, this is less likely to take the form of classroom training and more field work under supervision. But for something like training in magic, it would seem cheaper to offer large scale training on base concepts. It would also ensure loyalty of said students to the guild later, and also serve as a secondary (or primary) source of income. In a major city, this would have the advantage of JUST being a school, and the students would likely go home at night. That being said, having on-campus housing would also be a way for the guild to make money and allow for nearby villages/towns to send their children to the city to be trained by competent spellcasters in a relatively safe environment.
The guild might cover the guild dues of any "graduate assistants" in return for a few hours each day that they provide teaching to would-be wizards, or possibly give them greater access in the guild libraries so that they can advance faster. As a result, I'm betting that you'd see less of what you see in Harry Potter where the teachers are supposed to be some of the pre-eminent spellcasters around. However, and this might vary between schools, each student might have a specific set of mentor or mentors that they're apprenticed to for them to focus their studies down a specific path or bring questions to. Being available for said service might be a requirement of all guild members of 3rd level and above, with the ability to pay a fee to get away from this. On the other hand, this may not be a requirement at all, and simply those willing to offer their services get a cut on guild fees (or possibly the teacher is allowed to take from the guild created store of potions and scrolls which are created by students).
On that topic, I imagine many of the guilds may separate their libraries into levels of power, and the "more powerful" captured spellbooks get allotted to the greater libraries. Guild dues probably are more expensive for the higher the access you require. I can easily see this stuff being separated into 1st-2nd level, 3rd-5th level, 6th-7th level, 8th and 9th level. Similarly, they might have separated libraries on potion and scroll "recipes", wand/staff/rod recipes, armor/weapon/clothing recipes, jewelry and wondrous item recipes, portal and mythal lore, etc... and some "graduate assistants" in addition to teaching duties may get access to higher level libraries, with the caveat that they must also keep them organized and cleaned.
Outside of a major city, its likely not as profitable to run a school unless you can gather apprentices from all the nearby villages and get them to live on campus. If there's a problem with young sorcerers in the area, that would definitely have a positive influence on said communities (i.e having the areas that will possibly explode not be in one's home is a plus). But, out in the countryside, you're more likely to run into the old fashioned wizard and apprentice relationship we've heard of in stories.
One thing to also consider is the "lab costs" and how you'd administer them. For instance, if you have a scroll or potion creation class say once a week, that can actually get very expensive compared to standard guild dues (the cost of "common" rarity items in 5e being 50-100 gp... though personally on cosumables I'd cut that in half if they're only usable by someone with training (i.e. scrolls).... comparably in 3e, the creation of a 1st level scroll is 12.5 gp and potions are 25 gp). Should this be an up front cost for the student and the student keeps their creation? Should the school keep all created items for either sale or guild use and thereby subsume the cost (and in this case, who pays for failures)? Give that many 1st level spells are not much better than cantrips, I don't see the market for scrolls being that great.
Also, worth discussing for a moment is what types of 1st level potions or other "untrained user, single use item" do you see selling well for legitimate purposes, and how?
Amongst nobility periodically wanting to "show off", potions of unseen servant might be a cheap way to impress for say an hour if they must or want to go somewhere without traditional servants who might "listen in".
Silent image potions might be common use for law enforcement as a means to give a sketch artist a totally accurate idea of what someone saw (i.e. "here, drink this and then think about what you saw").
Expeditious retreat, jump, and longstrider potions may also see use in law enforcement or other scenarios where a sudden burst of speed or get somewhere to chase someone is needed.
comprehend language, feather fall, false life, and mage armor potions have obvious uses, so that's a given,though they probably won't sell much.
Illusory script "dust" might be a common sale as well for businesses and governments.
Tenser's Floating Disk potions may see some use in heavy construction.
Charm person, sleep, and Tasha's Hideous Laughter powder may be items for controlled distribution to law enforcement as a means to peacefully try to handle some encounters.
Disguise self potions might be items also for controlled distribution to law enforcement.
Finally, what are some services that the guild may sell for its lowly apprentices to do in the form of spells cast that would be commonly done for cheaper than the creation of an item (so therefore its an income for the guild that merely forces the apprentice to cast a spell successfully, thus practice his craft)?
Cantrips
create bonfire - many businesses that have a need to keep things hot constantly (a smithy, a glassworker, etc...) may find it worthwhile to pay a spellcaster to constantly cast this effect. This might be a punishment for an apprentice.
mending - for a simple cost of a silver or so, the guild may open its doors (or a market stall) wherein it has its apprentices cast mending on many simple utilitarian objects (a pile of broken bricks, a tool, someone's ripped dress, a broken wagon wheel, etc...)
control winds - for say a cost of a gold an hour, a construction company may hire a wizard to create an air conditioned area outside that its workers may go sit in to prevent overheating. Similarly, outside theaters may pay similar money so that they can in turn charge more and encourage folk to come to be entertained.
mold earth - the excavation ability and ability to make terrain non-difficult may see use around construction sites. Having a wizard excavating portions of earth and then moving it elsewhere with a tenser's floating disk makes a very effective excavation crew. Having a single wizard casting this cantrip and multiple wizards using tenser's floating disk makes digging up an area a task that can be accomplished in hours rather than weeks. If there is a central graveyard for the city (such as Waterdeep), an apprentice with this cantrip may be assigned the task of digging several new graves per day.
shape water - this may see common use with workers working in sewers to move sludge away from an area that they need to work long enough for them to initiate repairs. This may also be employed with the mending cantrip as well, such that many sewer repair crews simply consist of strong arms sent to protect wizard apprentices who do all of the work.
1st level spells
Alarm - many apprentices may pay their guild dues entirely by performing this service for the guild on a daily basis on certain businesses or government installations. This should be a relatively cheap service (say 1 gold per casting a day to the buyer of said service to make it expensive enough to warrant its purchase but not so expensive as to encourage them to have an item created for daily use). Since this is a ritual, it doesn't require the apprentice to waste their precious 1st level spell slot, and thus they could spend 5 or 6 hours a day running around from business to business placing alarms, possibly casting this spell a hundred or more times in a single day.
Illusory Script - much like the illusory script "dust" this might seem common use for cheaper than the item, the problem being that the caster sees the text. Granted, if they are encrypting a pile of documents then they may not be given time to read them. For things that need some minor secrecy, this might be a cheap option (say 1 gold to encrypt a set of documents, if the documents are brought to the guild, 10 gold if the apprentice must travel). Since this is a ritual, it doesn't require the apprentice to waste their precious 1st level spell slot, and thus they could spend 5 or 6 hours a day encrypting documents for the guild, possibly casting this spell a hundreds of times in a single day if they stay in one place. Some governments may encrypt all documents as a simple means of hiding the truly secret documents amongst a horde of others.
identify - this would most likely be a service of more powerful guild assistants, but still a common service especially as a ritual.
comprehend languages - combined with a re-scribing service, this should also be something relatively cheap (say 5 gold to translate and re-scribe a page of a document). Since this is a ritual, it doesn't require the apprentice to waste their precious 1st level spell slot, and thus they could spend 5 or 6 hours a day translating documents, possibly casting this spell dozens of times in a single day. Note that apprentices put to this service will likely also use ritual castings of unseen servant to perform the hand cramping job of writing all of the text, such that this is not nearly as punishing task as it seems.
Tenser's Floating Disk - apprentices may be hired out to go to a job site for an entire day at say 10 gold an hour just to help quickly move heavy objects from point A to point B. It should be noted that this is a ritual, so spellcasters could be put to use numerous times during the day. Since similar work could be done with a wheelbarrow for things like large piles of bricks, this would tend to be for unusual situations (though it could be used to speed construction if necessary, and the expense simply get added into the contract). For instance, someone wants a huge bell put in the top of a belltower, so they hire a wizard's apprentice to cast tenser's disk and simply walk it up the stairs to workers waiting at the top to bolt it in place. Castle, Mansion, and tower construction wherein moving relatively large blocks of stone all over is a requirement would also likely see this use.
2nd level
Skywrite - this ritual is one which many larger cities may use to quickly convey simple messages to the populace or the military. It may be a common occurrence that for instance someone rings a bell that can be heard for miles to indicate that all should heed an incoming sky message. Such messages might be "close the gates until further notice" or "seize the drow elf in the marketplace" or even "the lord mayor has decreed that X is a new law" followed up with additional castings to fully define the law. Of course, if a city employs this, they will want an apprentice on hand to quickly repudiate any false sky writings that appear along with bell ringing (any city employing this may actually have the ringing of multiple bells or some kind of dual factor authentication <a colored light shining from a tower, etc...> to make it well known that it is in fact the rulers who are sending the message).
3rd level
Water breathing - in a city with a harbor, the city may pay to have this ritual spell cast upon a select crew.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 08:18:12
Try Steven, that's a sure bet.
Aside from a few other references scattered in various tomes, there's really nothing specifically elaborate published in the Realmslore. I'd imagine there's plenty of unpublished material on either Ed's or Steven's hard drive. |
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