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T O P I C    R E V I E W
jerrod Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 12:06:45
I was very disappointed in how the ssrinshee was written in this novel. She is supposed to arguably be one of the mightiest wizard of the planet and a chosen of Mystra and the seldarine. Where was her high magic ? The spells of such might that they were only to be used in defense of a elven realm or elders life? She was suppose to be the elven version of the simbol! I saw nothing that elevated her above a hedge-wizard except the act of seizing the minds of two other chosen and mind riding elminster.alone she should've been able to face larloch on a even footing which even elminster couldn't do. I won't spoil the book,but from her first appearance to her last she was a terrible disappointment.i mean for crying out loud even severel summoned aid from arvandor during his crusade.a spell I know is represented as a HighMagic spell too!! Spells that grind away man-made materials and flesh but leave nature untouched except for revitalizing it. All I ask is Where was the might she was suppose to have after 5 thousand years of wielding ART even against dragons fiends and drow armies?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
The Masked Mage Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 13:04:47
But perhaps all that has happened in the interim has allowed her to gather bits and pieces enough to get the chosen making her whole again... widely dispersed kinda sounds like the Mystra from Ed's recent novels right? Barely holding herself and the remnants of the Weave together.

Makes enough sense to me to consider :)
Drizztsmanchild Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 08:09:26
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I've read it now. I don't see where you problems come from. The only issue I had was the easy death of one of the sisters - which I'm guessing will not last long, given trends. Even if it does, in my realms all 7 will be back - and Khelben too - and Halaster. Hell - bring back everyone who ever "died" 1365-14whatever :P. Even better, lets give Sylune a body and let the witch do her thing again too.

I do have one question and I'm wondering if anyone else asked themselves this as well... WHICH Mystra do we have back? Perhaps the Mystra lingering in the Weave was #1 and she is now "whole" again. That would be a great story arc and we could be rid of whiny mortal goody two-shoes Midnight/Mystra.


I had thought that Mystra #1 was so dispersed that even Ao couldn't bring her back. Or so was stated at the end of ToT
The Masked Mage Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 05:24:27
I've read it now. I don't see where you problems come from. The only issue I had was the easy death of one of the sisters - which I'm guessing will not last long, given trends. Even if it does, in my realms all 7 will be back - and Khelben too - and Halaster. Hell - bring back everyone who ever "died" 1365-14whatever :P. Even better, lets give Sylune a body and let the witch do her thing again too.

I do have one question and I'm wondering if anyone else asked themselves this as well... WHICH Mystra do we have back? Perhaps the Mystra lingering in the Weave was #1 and she is now "whole" again. That would be a great story arc and we could be rid of whiny mortal goody two-shoes Midnight/Mystra.
Neconilis Posted - 22 Aug 2014 : 23:39:44
How has no one quoted this? This parody is absolutely hilarious; it is also, unfortunately, far too accurate.

As someone else has already mentioned, Ed is a fantastic creator of worlds with deep history, rich characters, and intriguing themes; however, (most of) his novels leave much to be desired for a number of different reasons, not the least of which being their base character interactions and all too questionable treatment of iconic figures.

For example, I loved it when Larloch showed up, the (arguably) most powerful non-divine caster still existing who had always avoided divinity, but now with the mantle of magic open once more he was ready to put into motion a magnificent plan beyond mortal understanding to become the master of the Weave?

...not really, his plan wasn't so involved and it was shot down in mere moments by Elminster (whose arrogance allowed the plan to begin without any real difficulty in the first place) riding a wave of power from the freshly martyred Srinshee. Oh, Shade/Netheril got obliterated in the spillover too.

Yeah...

I know expectations were sky-high for this book, and I understand the real-world limitations as well; still, things could have concluded far more logically and productively.

quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance

Yeah, the way in which Greenwood presents the characters in "The Herald" is staggeringly bad. One of the most cringe worthy examples goes like this.

El: "Alusrtiel and Laeral, what are you guys doing here in the basement of Candlekeep?"

2/7: "We are looking for secret books to destroy Candlekeep."

El: "Er... what?"

2/7: "Yeah, we think that Blackshaft wanted us to do that so an evil shadowy figure can't use the Weave-Force locked in the 'Keeps Wards to destroy the World, so we're destroying the 'Keep first"

El: "Sha-Hoodoo-Boom-Boom-Cacoon Spell!" (El enspells the girls)

2/7: "Spell of Drop a Ceiling on Elminster.... Haaaa!" (2/7 drops a ceiling on El)

(Elminster is teleported to safety by Larloch)

Larloch: "Hey bro, I'm trying to save the world. Wanna team-up?"

El: "Yeah bro, sounds good."

Larloch: "Cool. You channel the Weave-Force to me, then I'll put the Weave-Force back in the Weave... Promise."

Elminster (always playing the long game): "Cool, sounds good."

(El and Larloch teleport back to the 'Keep, El channels the Weave-Force to Larloch.)

Larloch: Fooled you, noob! I'm taking this Weave-Force and I'm going to be a Godd! W00t! (Teleports away.)

2/7: El, you just gave Larloch the Weave-force we have been trying to destroy by hiding in a basement for 100 years! Now he has half the Macguffin he needs to destroy the World.

El: Oops! Well, I'm stubborn and pulled a boner, sorry!

2/7: Classic Elminster!

El and 2/7: Ha ha ha lol lol ha! (Everyone laughs)

The Masked Mage Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 07:14:52
So far, my two favorite authors overall have been Elaine and Ed. I hope they both keep writing until these old eyes dry up :P
Wooly Rupert Posted - 21 Jul 2014 : 22:54:18
I think that's a bit harsh. Multiple publishers keep asking him to write books, so your opinion is far from universal.
swifty Posted - 21 Jul 2014 : 22:35:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

First - I've not yet read the herald, but will so no comments on its content. My response is for the sadly ignorant few who seem to think that their opinion of what the realms is and should be is more valid that the Realms' creator and primary driving force. As for the great "canon" debate - sorry to break it to you, but Ed's word is final here. Whine about his choices all you want but he wins by default.

And I'm sorry but "Writing novels is not something he does well" - come on are you serious? Ed's writing is the entire reason anyone here, be it old goats who've been reading it since the 80s or newcomers like yourself, is a fan of the Realms. He wrote it - its characters, its cities, its monsters, its gods, its food, its money, its magic. Others have helped in that effort and some even in very major ways, but if you don't like Ed's writing then you're in the wrong place I'd say.

sorry but ed's novels are terrible for a lot of us.its a bit like George Lucas with star wars.yes he invented the universe and were all grateful but tell me for one minute you'd want to see another trilogy with him in charge.give ed input but dear god stop him writing.
Blueblade Posted - 09 Jul 2014 : 18:39:53
THO explained that.
BB
jerrod Posted - 09 Jul 2014 : 02:54:16
Still....she is like a uber-highmage.....why didn't she use a single high magic spell?
Portella Posted - 09 Jul 2014 : 00:36:46
Honestly the way ssrinshee sliced countless foes in battle was just too awesome to describe. xxx
Drustan Dwnhaedan Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 07:04:30
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Absolutely correct Arcanus. So let's just stick to providing an opinion on and criticising the content rather than the author. Once we've got that one sorted, we can then proceed to make informed commentary on the creative endeavours of others. As an aside, and likely unsurprisingly, I struggle with opinions and commentary that contain the subtext "If I was doing/writing X, I would do it properly and it would be ever so much better because I really understand this topic/charcter that you've created, in fact, better than you do ...". Give me a break.

-- George Krashos



Could not agree more Krash - as much as I always think my opinions are always the right ones, even I must admit that I am a terrible writer and on my best day could not produce anything approaching a well written novel. I'm guessing the same holds true for most people.



I agree with both Mr. Krashos and The Masked Mage on this.
Seravin Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 19:55:34
Ed's novels are difficult for me. I actually really enjoy reading Crown of Fire and Elminster in Hell. I have been wanting to read the Elminster Making of a Mage series for a while, I've heard it is good too.
Elminster in hell is more like dozens of short stories as Elminster gives up his memories, but they are very fun to read. And the Simbul blasting things away is great too. And Halastar.
For me the best Realms author will always be Jeff Grubb (Azure Bonds and The Wyvenr's Spur are AMAZING); he combined Ed's lore building power with a sharp writing style. I think better than Bob or Elaine even at Realms writing, both of whom are also awesome.
The Arcanamach Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 00:40:41
Ed's novels aren't the best in the world for me either. I like them well enough, but I don't LOVE them like I do some others. But that said, there are a couple of caveats.

1. Ed, like other Realms authors, has limited time to write a book. Unlike say, George R.R. Martin, they can't write five books over the course of 20+ years.
2. They also have limited space to write their stories. Again, unlike George R.R. Martin, Realms novels aren't written with a 900+ page count.

My point is, Ed is limited as to what and how much he can write for a novel...and that has to be taken into account. Now I will make this point in light of Wooley's initial comments. He (Ed) could spend less time and word count writing about multiple conspiracies and put more effort into the actual story the novel is about. But that's just my personal opinion.
The Masked Mage Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 11:54:14
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Absolutely correct Arcanus. So let's just stick to providing an opinion on and criticising the content rather than the author. Once we've got that one sorted, we can then proceed to make informed commentary on the creative endeavours of others. As an aside, and likely unsurprisingly, I struggle with opinions and commentary that contain the subtext "If I was doing/writing X, I would do it properly and it would be ever so much better because I really understand this topic/charcter that you've created, in fact, better than you do ...". Give me a break.

-- George Krashos



Could not agree more Krash - as much as I always think my opinions are always the right ones, even I must admit that I am a terrible writer and on my best day could not produce anything approaching a well written novel. I'm guessing the same holds true for most people.
jerrod Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 05:56:18
I wanted to scream when the witch-queen....#128546;
Thorn Illance Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 16:08:19
Wow George K., you must have really liked "The Herald".
Arcanus Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 15:36:28
quote:

As an aside, and likely unsurprisingly, I struggle with opinions and commentary that contain the subtext "If I was doing/writing X, I would do it properly and it would be ever so much better because I really understand this topic/charcter that you've created, in fact, better than you do ...". Give me a break.

-- George Krashos



Oh I am with you on that George, I'm sure any story written in the realms would be much better than any effort that I could muster up.
The Masked Mage Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 09:43:29
I for one am forced to wonder how long the Chosen who have been laid low during Mystra's latest absence will stay dead. The last little bit of the novel shows her restoring Vangy with ease. Its been done before with most of them in the course of a single story. Really the only powerful NPC that got laid low in the Herald i expect to stay that way is Telemont, since El stayed to make sure he was gone and Shar is not the kind to bring her failed servants back. Dove can be brought back with a simple raise dead spell - so that's a nothing for her to do. The others are a bit more stretched but i can see the Srinshee popping up from the shadows again some day, and even they Simbul - both of whom died in basically the same way. I also would vote for Sylune to be made whole... she's gotten entirely too insubstantial a ghost in the weave for my liking. other rumblings I've read hereabouts suggest the Dark Maiden is coming back so why not their shared chosen as well? Finally - and I know its a stretch - they should bring back Khelben, bringing us full circle to before 4th ever started :D

P.S. I don't imagine Larloch is totally destroyed either.
George Krashos Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 04:52:48
Absolutely correct Arcanus. So let's just stick to providing an opinion on and criticising the content rather than the author. Once we've got that one sorted, we can then proceed to make informed commentary on the creative endeavours of others. As an aside, and likely unsurprisingly, I struggle with opinions and commentary that contain the subtext "If I was doing/writing X, I would do it properly and it would be ever so much better because I really understand this topic/charcter that you've created, in fact, better than you do ...". Give me a break.

-- George Krashos
Arcanus Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 04:05:29
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So you've read Cormanthyr, Fall of Myth Drannor, Elminster in Myth Drannor and Tears So White.

The first two are sourcebooks that give you her stats and the last two are written by Ed and actually give you the only real representation of the Srinshee's character. And yet Ed's portrayal of her in the Herald is 'wrong' ...

Like every fan and reader you are entitled to dislike someone else's creative work. Heck I dislike many aspects of the published Realms, but I've never confused my own thoughts and wants on a topic with value judgments that are ultimately totally and utterly subjective and personal. Ed's portrayal of the Srinshee didn't float your boat. We got it. Just how that translates to a statement that Ed in some way has made a mistake or not written up a character he created 'properly' utterly escapes me. In reality it is the highest form of no responsibility fan arrogance. Write anything you want up for the Realms and post it here. After I've dismantled it in my arrogance in about five minutes flat, you may then understand how posts like yours are anathema to a healthy FR community.

-- George Krashos





Its not arrogance to criticise a novel or the behaviour of a well known character. Nor is it a personal attack. Saying you write something and I will take it apart is a little obtuse. We don't write the novels, 'they' do. As such they are open to good and bad opinions about the stories that are published.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 03:31:45
Wow, this thread is getting heated. Let's calm down a bit here...
George Krashos Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 03:15:23
So you've read Cormanthyr, Fall of Myth Drannor, Elminster in Myth Drannor and Tears So White.

The first two are sourcebooks that give you her stats and the last two are written by Ed and actually give you the only real representation of the Srinshee's character. And yet Ed's portrayal of her in the Herald is 'wrong' ...

Like every fan and reader you are entitled to dislike someone else's creative work. Heck I dislike many aspects of the published Realms, but I've never confused my own thoughts and wants on a topic with value judgments that are ultimately totally and utterly subjective and personal. Ed's portrayal of the Srinshee didn't float your boat. We got it. Just how that translates to a statement that Ed in some way has made a mistake or not written up a character he created 'properly' utterly escapes me. In reality it is the highest form of no responsibility fan arrogance. Write anything you want up for the Realms and post it here. After I've dismantled it in my arrogance in about five minutes flat, you may then understand how posts like yours are anathema to a healthy FR community.

-- George Krashos

jerrod Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 22:07:13
For the record my opinion about the lady oluveira WAS based on reading ALL the books she has appeared In.ive been buying forgotten realms since the late 80s with my allowance and have continued to do so up until this moment. So I think I probably have SOME valid "understanding" of ED's characters. I love his source books,but his novels tend to be lacking in some areas.i feel that after pumping us up with how mighty the ssrinshee was..(the simbils equal said elminster) she should've been more helpful in war to her supposed homeland. After all the simbul made ground meat out of devil armies in Hell! Another thing I notice while spending nearly 30ysr collecting forgotten realms books (masked) is that ladies seem to get suicidal after dealing with elminster. Do I error in that observation as well?#128527;
Wooly Rupert Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 15:22:30
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

And I'm sorry but "Writing novels is not something he does well" - come on are you serious? Ed's writing is the entire reason anyone here, be it old goats who've been reading it since the 80s or newcomers like yourself, is a fan of the Realms. He wrote it - its characters, its cities, its monsters, its gods, its food, its money, its magic. Others have helped in that effort and some even in very major ways, but if you don't like Ed's writing then you're in the wrong place I'd say.



I'm one of the folks that's been here for the long haul; I got my copy of the OGB shortly before the announcement that there was going to be a 2E FRCS boxed set.

Ed's novel-writing talent is subjective; it's based on personal opinion. Some people love his books. Me, of the books of his I've read, I've only really enjoyed a couple of them. His novels just don't work for me.

That said, I think he is absolutely peerless as a world-builder.

And that's the point I'm getting at: while we all are here because of what Ed has written, there is a hell of a difference between reading a sourcebook and reading a novel.

I'll happily peruse an Ed sourcebook any day of the week, and a lot of my fave Realms sourcebooks are ones that he has written. On the flipside, none of his novels list among my FR faves.

My main issue with his novels is the focus he gives to showing everything else that's happening. For me, it's just too much. Yes, I understand that at any given moment, there are cabals gathering and plots being executed, all over the setting.

What bothers me is when one person or group, in the span of hours or even minutes, happens upon five or six of these secret assignations. It gives the feeling that everyone in the Realms spends a large portion of their time plotting, and it also makes me feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie, and I'm trying to figure out what happened before I came in. I'd prefer to see far less of the "here a plot, there a plot, everywhere a plot!" thing going on in novels -- it works well in sourcebooks*, when each plot can be handled individually, but poorly in novels, where we get a barrage of out-of-context snippets.

If a character is running for their lives, and is bursting thru buildings and cellars and such in a city or castle, I'd expect to see more scenes of people just working or living, and less plotting. Seeing a single conspiracy is fine, but when someone goes from conspiracy to conspiracy, you have to wonder why all these people are meeting in one readily accessible spot and why they're not posting lookouts.

So not liking Ed's novels does not equate to disliking everything he has written.


*It mostly works well in sourcebooks, but there are exceptions. I didn't care for how the Neverwinter Campaign Setting had all these differing power groups, working at cross purposes, with each of them having infiltrated all the others, all in one relatively small corner of the world.
Arcanus Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 14:22:01
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

First - I've not yet read the herald, but will so no comments on its content. My response is for the sadly ignorant few who seem to think that their opinion of what the realms is and should be is more valid that the Realms' creator and primary driving force. As for the great "canon" debate - sorry to break it to you, but Ed's word is final here. Whine about his choices all you want but he wins by default.

And I'm sorry but "Writing novels is not something he does well" - come on are you serious? Ed's writing is the entire reason anyone here, be it old goats who've been reading it since the 80s or newcomers like yourself, is a fan of the Realms. He wrote it - its characters, its cities, its monsters, its gods, its food, its money, its magic. Others have helped in that effort and some even in very major ways, but if you don't like Ed's writing then you're in the wrong place I'd say.



The opinions expressed here, both pro and con, are equally valid. For myself Ed is very hit or miss with his writing. Some of his works I cherish, others I will never read again. Nobody is arguing that Ed isn't the most creative and lore maker of the realms, just that this particular book was disappointing to some of us.
Given your long history with Ed you are naturally protective towards him but I will remind you of some words he himself spoke-

I don't mind if people complain because it shows that they care.
The Masked Mage Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 12:35:03
First - I've not yet read the herald, but will so no comments on its content. My response is for the sadly ignorant few who seem to think that their opinion of what the realms is and should be is more valid that the Realms' creator and primary driving force. As for the great "canon" debate - sorry to break it to you, but Ed's word is final here. Whine about his choices all you want but he wins by default.

And I'm sorry but "Writing novels is not something he does well" - come on are you serious? Ed's writing is the entire reason anyone here, be it old goats who've been reading it since the 80s or newcomers like yourself, is a fan of the Realms. He wrote it - its characters, its cities, its monsters, its gods, its food, its money, its magic. Others have helped in that effort and some even in very major ways, but if you don't like Ed's writing then you're in the wrong place I'd say.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 02:50:15
House of Serpents was good
Elsenrail Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 21:10:49
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

Canon doesn't apply in this case. I am a little tired of hearing ed this and ed that. Ed invented the realms yes. He sold it and ever since then he has only been a part of fleshing the world out. I can't deny that he is prolific in doing that but he will tell you himself that he is only a part (and has been for many years) of the realms of today.



I know there are many Ed's fans, but I back what is said above. Ceratinly, Ed is very imiaginative and I' glad he created the Realms, but they are not his anymore to o as he sees fit. I know it is fantasy, but please give us some realism. Unfortunately, writing novels is not something he does well. Just look at reviews on amazon. It tells enough. :(

I'm recently reading "The House of Serpents" and I love the trilogy. The story and characters are belevable. Ed's character are not.
Thorn Illance Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 18:24:16
Yep. Larloch's portal network thinggee was associated with the Weave anchor thingees so he could get the whole Weave-Force network mapped so he could take the Weave-Force of Candlekeep and Myth Drannor, which is supposedly a significant portion of Toril's total Weave-Force. The Weave-Force of either of these two sites was supposedly enough Weave-Force to annihilate Toril, according to Elminster.
Irennan Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 17:52:14
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance

2/7: El, you just gave Larloch the Weave-force we have been trying to destroy by hiding in a basement for 100 years! Now he has half the Macguffin he needs to destroy the World.





So, Larloch's plan was to become a god and it involved blowing Toril (or large part of it) up, or risking doing so in the process?

He always struck me as very calculate with his mysterious goals and motivations ...
Also wasn't he in a sort of neutral relationship with followers of Mystra, deciding to not attack them because he only wanted to perfect his magic and be left alone, or something like that?
I'm curious why he decided to get involved like that at the end.

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