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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Gary Dallison Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 08:42:47
Okay this is a place to discuss the origin of individual "gods" and what their origins are.

Basically given what we know about certain gods can we decipher whether they began life as a primordial, a deity, a cosmic entity, or maybe even as a mortal.

So brief definitions on the three (mortal probably needs no definition).

Primordial- Naturally powerful exemplar or its kind or a unique individual. So a super powerful animal or a super powered giant, but not a normal dire bear or normal fire giant. Classes are not part of this power level as it is naturally inherent.
- Single body, it exists in one form, not multiple manifestations, no avatars.
- Material, Faerie, or Elemental Plane in origin. Primordials cannot come from the Outer Planes.
- Mortal. When their body is killed they are dead (exceptions occur of course and they can also be resurrected like normal creatures.
- Cannot grant spells.
- Worship independent. Their power level is not tied to the number of worshippers.

Deity - Outer Planar. Deities cannot exist on other planes but can send avatars and manifestations to those planes.
- Multiple bodies. Can create multiple avatars and aspects to send anywhere, can have multiple manifestations and divide divine essence into multiple vessels.
- Worship dependent. Power level directly dependent upon direct and indirect worship.
- Immortal. Gods cannot die, they are ideals, manifestations of belief, should the current holder of an ideal be destroyed then that ideal or belief is subsumed into another appropriate deity or another deity is created to fill the gap. The previous holders of that belief or ideal exist as single avatars of the new deity with their own independent personalities and goals but must at all time represent the portfolio of the current god.
- Can grant spells.

Cosmic Entity - Planar. Cosmic entities are representative of the plane on which they serve. That plane chooses them to be the embodiment of them. E.g. Demogorgon, Asmodeus.
- Multiple bodies. Can have multiple aspects and manifestations. Only one physical body is the original and real body of that being.
- Worship independent. Their power level is awarded to them by the plane they represent. They have full powers on that plane, power level decreases the further they travel from that plane.
- Mortal and Immortal. The current representative of the plane can be killed, but the plane will elect another representative to replace him.
- Can grant spells.

Vestige - Multi Planar. Vestiges can exist any plane; depending on where they died, and in some cases on several planes at the same time (material and ethereal for instance).
- Single body. Exists only as a remnant of what was once a deity, cosmic entity, or primordial.
- Worship Independent. Power level is not dependent on number of worshippers and is a fraction of the entity's former power when he was a god/primordial/cosmic entity.
- Deceased. Vestige is the remnant of a being that has already been slain or destroyed.
- Can grant spells but only to people that form pacts with the vestige, cannot grant spells to all worshippers.

Sentient Artefact - Planar. Can exist anywhere
- Single Body. Exist only as the artefact they currently inhabit.
- Worship Independent. Power level is dependant upon the artefact they inhabit.
- Deathless. Cannot be destroyed unless the artefact is likewise destroyed.
- Can grant spells??? (not sure about this one, i'm thinking they probably can't grant spells but no proof either way).

So if you have an origin or category for a deity or planar being or primordial creature then by all means say but you need the proof to back up your claim (page numbers please so we can all check).
Oh and i only go as far as 1370's in dates.


The Seldarine
Corellon Larethian - Origin - Primordial from Faerie
- Current Status - 27,000 - 17,500 DR, Elven greater deity

Drow Pantheon
Lolth - Origin - Primordial from Faerie
- Other Status - -24,000 DR Cosmic Entity (demon lord)
- Current Status - -10,000 DR Drow deity (Intermediate or greater?)

Faerunian Pantheon
Tyr - Origin - -247 DR, interloping avatar
- Current Status - Greater deity

Myrkul - Origin - Mortal
- Other Status - c-200 DR, Greater deity
- Current Status - Sentient Artefact


Other Entities
Entropy - Origin - Sentient Artefact
- Current Status - Primordial?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Ayrik Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 00:14:19
The novel “Tymora‘s Luck“ provides much more detail about Tyche‘s division into Tymora and Beshaba.

The usual theological argument is that absence of proof is not proof of absence, but in this case I think it‘s pretty clear that canon categorically identifies Mystra and Tyche as distinct individuals because it just happens to be a simple and obvious truth.
Mirtek Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 21:49:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

What if Tyche was two separate beings in the beginning, and was separated by the Dawn Cataclysm?
According to OHG Tyche may have split voluntarily (or not). Or may have split voluntarily in the beginning but these "costumes" overwhelmed her and she was truly torn into the two.

Doing it voluntarily may have been her plan to hide her activities from her fellow olympians. They are a very jealous and powerfull bunch, and Zeus would have surely destroyed her on the spot if he found out that she's planning to migrate from them to another pantheon.

That would also explain why neither Tymora nor Beshaba have ever approached the olympians on the planes or the olympians have never approached one of them. Just being barred from looking into Toril would certainly not have been enough to prevent this story from reaching olympian ears. But if the ladies Luck are actively trying to prevent their former colleagues from discovering it? Seems more plausible that way.
Markustay Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 15:37:50
Well, as soon as I thought of it, I was also like, "nah... too many holes in that..."

But then I've always wondered what the 'Dawn' in Dawn Cataclysm stood for. I realize Lathander was involved, but that seems a little too simple, ya know? And besides, his 'dawn aspect' may cover other types of dawns (like ages), not just the sun coming up.
sleyvas Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 14:47:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So I guess Tyche just had a run of bad luck.

A very odd theory just popped into my head. We know of the existence of conjoined and tripatriate gods. I'm sure there are examples of even more deities joining together to form a single entity; that sort of thing happens all the time. What if Tyche was two separate beings in the beginning, and was separated by the Dawn Cataclysm?

Then another odd though struck me - something similar happened with Mystra. One of my many theories about the whole WoL&D is that Selune and Shaar were two halves of some whole - two different faces of something greater. What if the War of Light & Darkness accidentally created one of these conjoined deities using most of their power? Thus, Mystra would almost be like a prison for the 'bad half' (Shar) of Selune. Supposedly, this 'bad side' got out during the ToT (or earlier?), and Shar was able to get her power back (or at least access it). Thats a theory I've been toying with for awhile now (amongst many others - there is some critical piece of info we are missing about those three).

Here's the new, very weird thought that just struck me - what if Mystra = Tyche.

If the shadowy part of Mystra did 'get away from her' at some point, which is hinted at in a couple of sources, could that have been during the Dawn Cataclysm? Could Tymora be another aspect of Selune, and Beshaba another aspect of Shar?

EDIT: And here's another interesting twist - that would mean magic works similar to how it (sometimes) works in Marvel Comics: Wanda (Scarlet Witch) 'does magic' by altering probabilities - thats just changing the luck, right there.



I don't see this as being accepted by the community.
Markustay Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 13:52:18
So I guess Tyche just had a run of bad luck.

A very odd theory just popped into my head. We know of the existence of conjoined and tripatriate gods. I'm sure there are examples of even more deities joining together to form a single entity; that sort of thing happens all the time. What if Tyche was two separate beings in the beginning, and was separated by the Dawn Cataclysm?

Then another odd though struck me - something similar happened with Mystra. One of my many theories about the whole WoL&D is that Selune and Shaar were two halves of some whole - two different faces of something greater. What if the War of Light & Darkness accidentally created one of these conjoined deities using most of their power? Thus, Mystra would almost be like a prison for the 'bad half' (Shar) of Selune. Supposedly, this 'bad side' got out during the ToT (or earlier?), and Shar was able to get her power back (or at least access it). Thats a theory I've been toying with for awhile now (amongst many others - there is some critical piece of info we are missing about those three).

Here's the new, very weird thought that just struck me - what if Mystra = Tyche.

If the shadowy part of Mystra did 'get away from her' at some point, which is hinted at in a couple of sources, could that have been during the Dawn Cataclysm? Could Tymora be another aspect of Selune, and Beshaba another aspect of Shar?

EDIT: And here's another interesting twist - that would mean magic works similar to how it (sometimes) works in Marvel Comics: Wanda (Scarlet Witch) 'does magic' by altering probabilities - thats just changing the luck, right there.
Mirtek Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 21:52:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Not only do I believe its the same Tyr
Which is actually flat out stated in the relevant Planescape sources. On Hallowed Grounds states that Tyr/Loviatar/Mielikki are the ones and sames from the Norse/Finnish pantheons who connected to Toril to avoid fading with their former pantheons (Tyr because others were poaching on his traditional role, the other two because they felt like their whole pantheon was preparing to "fade away / ascend to an unknown higher status beyond the planes" and they felt "too young" to follow the rest)

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

There is also the question of “dead“ gods. D&D basically states that a god without any worshippers or faith to sustain him becomes something of a dormant stonelike icon drifting around the Astral.
Also happens to dead deities who are slain.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Yet we have “The Dead Three“, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, whose collective divinity was thrust upon Cyric. Much has been written about these four deities, and it seems that somehow, in the end, none of them has actually managed to stay “dead“.
Few deities manage
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Moander was also declared dead (though I have my doubts), his divinity given to Finder. Does this mean Moander is floating around the Astral, or is he truly gone forever?
As a dead deity he's floating around. Just like the dead three were
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

What about Realms-Tyche? Split into Tymora and Beshaba, but does her divine identity still exist in a dormant state? (I‘m assuming she is technically a *different* goddess than Olympian-Tyche, from whom she was clearly modelled.
I just checked it in On Hallowed Grounds: She has no corpse floating in the Astral (or at least no one has found it yet) but she's gone from her realm in Olympus and it's fading away just like realms of dead deities do.

The fellow olympians have no clue what happened to her, and are barred from the torilian sphere and so far unable to find out more (at least the members who actually care, the pantheon as a whole isn't really looking for her)
sleyvas Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 18:54:15
Oh, and since she goes to Cyric in the winter and is returned to Loviatar in the summer.... perhaps this is the Bheur Hag, who is killed in the winter.
sleyvas Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 18:52:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for your musings on Kiputytto - you may want to read the excerpt featuring loviatar in Complete Book of Necromancers, somewhere around page 65. It doesn't mention her by name, but who else would be Loviatar's 'sister' (they came from the same pantheon originally).

What is strange about that tale is that it also features Cyric. That gave me my theory that Kiputytto didn't truly die in her battle with Talona (what deity does?), but rather, was placed in some sort of 'deep coma' and hidden away (in a secret tomb beneath one of the Cormyrian swamps, perhaps?) During the ToT, she would have been restored to her mortal form (as all other gods were), and she got herself re-killed (probably by Talona... again). That is how she could have wound up in the afterlife, with Cyric ruling (because anything else breaks the continuity).

On the other hand, it could be that Myrkul had her all along, and used his power to hide her from Loviatar. After the Tot, loviatar is restored, Myrkul is no more, and Cyric is in power (and has no clue about Kiputytto being hidden within his realm, or he just didn't care).

Either way, Kiputytto is still around, in one form or another, and I find it interesting that she had a mortal soul (because she went to the afterlife... which gods do not do). That would validate your supposition that she was an ascended Fey (archfey).



Ok, I just read the entry in Complete Book of Necromancers. Oddly, my first thoughts were the story sounds just like the greek story of Persephone and Hades, with the note about winter (which would have made me think Mielikki, also from the Finnish Pantheon). However, my research shows Loviatar as being the daughter of the Lord and Lady of the Dead (Tuoni and Tuonetar) and having 3 sisters (Sister of Kivutar, Kipu-Tytto and Vammatar). Vammatar appears to be a goddess of evil and misfortune, so it could be that this deity was long ago replaced by Beshaba. It could also be that her other sisters are still just powerful fey hags and that Cyric captured one of them.

However, Erkalla (also commonly called Irkalla) and Ganzir are from Babylonian mythology, making Cyric having claimed the domain of Nergal.... which could fit if Jergal and Nergal are the same being (both being lords of the dead... one being a Faerunian deity and the other being a dead Untheric deity who died in the orcgate wars).

So, in essence, I find this entry in Complete Book of Necromancers as interesting, but ultimately there's too many interesting options. The only thing I would say is that whatever happened had to have happened in the short time that Cyric was lord of the dead. The one factor that I see is that it is doubtful that its actually a goddess, since Cyric doesn't have control over dead gods/goddesses. I also find it interesting that this being doesn't go to the Finnish land of the dead Tuonela under Loviatar's parents (Tuoni and Tuonetar the Finnish god and goddess of the underworld), so the question could also be was the "sister" of Loviatar actually dead.

If I were to go anywhere with this, I'd state that the being that was in Cyric's domain was actually one of her other sisters, who is some kind of powerful Archfey Hag.
Gary Dallison Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 14:15:04
Big chunks of singular elements is how i picture the first primordials (i think that maergera beneath gauntlgrym sounds like one of these), reminiscent of the dawn titans in the Disney Hercules film.

Thats why i'm having renaming the titan that killed the batrachi emperor to a dawn titan so he can be some massive volcanic mass, or huge block of earth, or big tidal wave.

So Shar would be a massive block of dark matter, Selune would be the moon.

Then as time progresses the primordials have kids which are slightly lesser in raw power, but more complex in their nature. So fire + earth = a lava titan. Lava + water = a stone titan. Water + earth = mud titan.

If you have ever played the alchemy phone game, eventually you come up with a human.

Now i'm not saying this happened on Toril, but i kinda liked the idea of the elemental maelstrom - so the inner planes all mixed in the middle and that created the material plane, a great big blob of elemental mass that gradually split into litte worlds as the plane expanded outwards (like our universe).

Perhaps Faerie was created when magic came into being and a large block of this elemental mass disappeared off into it's own planar pocket by accident. A similar event may have happened to form the far realm.

Either way i think primordials came first and ascended to godhood. Once the first few gods were formed, the idea of gods became entrenched and so gods could be formed spontaneously out of nothing but worship of an idea.

I think primordial children come in two varieties, those children created by mating/mixing with another primordial. This creates some kind of amalgam primordial and a unique creature in its own right.
Alternatively the primordials can reproduce asexually (although really its more like taking elemental mass and energy and forming it) to produce an exact replica of itself, but smaller and not a primordial, a lesser race. A creature that can die of old age, get sick, etc.

These are the races we have today.

I dont really care about other worlds and deities that moved between them. I dont believe earth should ever have gods, merely some primordial wandered into earth and was worshipped but never ascended (he remained a primordial) because magic doesnt exist here, this plane is broken. And so popping back through to Toril where magic does exist he actually became a god thanks to being worshipped. We call anything really powerful a god, in Toril a god actually means something and has definition because they can be seen and touched and interacted with.

This is all purely to do with FR cosmology so no real life theological arguments please.
Markustay Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 13:31:01
As for your musings on Kiputytto - you may want to read the excerpt featuring loviatar in Complete Book of Necromancers, somewhere around page 65. It doesn't mention her by name, but who else would be Loviatar's 'sister' (they came from the same pantheon originally).

What is strange about that tale is that it also features Cyric. That gave me my theory that Kiputytto didn't truly die in her battle with Talona (what deity does?), but rather, was placed in some sort of 'deep coma' and hidden away (in a secret tomb beneath one of the Cormyrian swamps, perhaps?) During the ToT, she would have been restored to her mortal form (as all other gods were), and she got herself re-killed (probably by Talona... again). That is how she could have wound up in the afterlife, with Cyric ruling (because anything else breaks the continuity).

On the other hand, it could be that Myrkul had her all along, and used his power to hide her from Loviatar. After the Tot, loviatar is restored, Myrkul is no more, and Cyric is in power (and has no clue about Kiputytto being hidden within his realm, or he just didn't care).

Either way, Kiputytto is still around, in one form or another, and I find it interesting that she had a mortal soul (because she went to the afterlife... which gods do not do). That would validate your supposition that she was an ascended Fey (archfey).
Markustay Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 13:16:03
Okay, another thread got me thinking about the elemental lords and primordials. There are just so many problems with 4e having made them primordials, but making them anything else doesn't make as much sense, within the new cosmology... or does it?

The following is all based upon my theory that the pre-Sundered Realms (circa -35+K DR) was really the first world - one enormous plane that encompassed the prime material.

What if primordials aren't as specific as we have been lead to believe? What if each of them is just a sentient chunk of the Elemental Maelstrom? They are living chunks of primal fury, encompassing all energies and elements. Thats would mean FR's elemental lords are more like 'false primordials'...

Which could actually be archfey.

If the Creatori (Creator races) rose up on this 'first world', then everything that happened there would trickle-down to all the D&D worlds. Thus, if a select group of Archfey (ascended fey) took on the portfolios of specific elements (and energies - we know Auril took 'cold'), then these 'elemental lords' would be known throughout the spheres (core), and be mistaken for primordials, because they are part of the 'old gods' - those deities that came into being on the First World.

That gives you yet-another tier - 'Old Gods' are the ones that arose before the world was Sundered. They would be the first of the ascended mortals, and incredibly powerful, ancient beings (but NOT primordials). I'd probably take a sprinkling of gods from other pantheons to ad to that tier (it could even replace my 'High God' tier in my own cosmology). Set, for instance, would also make a good candidate for 'Old God' (along with a few other beast-lords, like Lurue & Nobanion).

EDIT: Rather then say 'Old Gods', we could use the term Elohim, which sounds much cooler.
Gary Dallison Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 11:01:40
Just noticed Silvanus has two distinct avatars. The Old Father and the Young Man.

Now to my mind that means Silvanus is a deity incorporating at least two separate deities into one being.

So The Old Father is Silvanus' face sprouting from trees, which speaks to me of Treants, so maybe Silvanus was a treant deity or treant primordial that ascended.

At some point when the other races come along he has merged with, or conquered, or subsumed the Young Strider.

Now this Young Strider sounds an awful lot like a typical druid, and so he probably was the first druid that ascended to godhood through worship and over time and confusion the two deities merged to form what we know no as Silvanus.
Gary Dallison Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 10:52:26
Now Silvanus is an interesting one.

He is a nature god, which is typically the province of fey creatures and it would seem fey primordials that ascend to godhood.

However, Silvanus has a very different personality to the other fey like deities. He is nurturing, caring, and paternalistic to his worshippers, whereas fey like deities are either cruel and capricious towards their worshippers (for unseelie) or just aloof and uncaring (for seelie).

Also the fact that Silvanus is True Neutral seems bizarre and out of character for a fey. Typically the fey are about extremes of ideology rather than balance, so they are either lawful, chaotic, evil, or good (although none of those alignments mean anything to a fey since they are not thinking or acting in terms of morals).

All this points me to thinking Silvanus was not a fey. This doesnt necessarily mean he wasnt a primordial, but i havent seen anything to suggest that he was so far.

So that leaves ascended mortal, interloper deity (although even then i would prefer to know how he originally became a deity), cosmic entity, or something else.

Given his love of nature and connection with dryads (one of his holy days allows dryads to leave their trees for a day) i am thinking Silvanus was one of the very first druids in the realms. No idea what race that would make him, it would probably be some time before the days of thunder and so perhaps he was a member of the proto human race that existed back then.

Markustay Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 00:35:26
The Fey deities (Seldarine, etc) and the Olympians all hangout in the same region of the Planes (Arborea), ergo, its not to much of a stretch if Hanali = Aphrodite, and thus Venus = Sune. We needn't choose one theory over another - all could be true.

Even when pantheons are not physically near each other some deities 'cross over'. When people see these 'different' gods (aspects) interacting, what they are really seeing is a god creating multiple avatars of itself - gods probably 'talk to themselves' all the time.

Some deities may be doing other things besides talking. For Sune, that would be the ultimate expression of narcissism.
sleyvas Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 00:04:11
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Sune likewise seems a very fey like deity.

She dwells with an elf (Hanali Celani) which i suspect all elves to have been fey primordials at one point.

She is rather aloof, rarely manifesting on the material plane.

She is listed as being a friendly rival with Hanali over who is more beautiful, humans or elves, but this could just be worshipper interpretation, and really the two goddesses are rivals over which of them is the more beautiful and it has nothing to do with their worshippers.

Her list of enemies include deities that are also probably fey in origin: Talos (otherwise known as Gruumsh), Auril, Umberlee (probably the only non fey in this list), Malar, Talona, Tempus (i picture seelie fey as devoting themselves solely to the perfection of an ideal so Tempus could have been a fey devoted to the perfection of war).

Anyway, its just a possibility, although the list of possible fey linked deities is now getting rather large, but then again the links with Toril and Faerie were incredibly strong in ancient times so that is probably why.





Sune is a deity whose origin will cause some "heated discussions" around here. Some people want her to be Venus renamed. Others think maybe she really is Hanali. Others think she might be fey like you say. Others think something entirely differently. Personally, I'm undecided.

On Tempus, personally, my preference is that Tempus is actually Tempus from the Thieve's World trilogy. He was a bloody mercenary who was plagued with being favored of a god named Vashanka. However, other war gods also favored him. He had a whole slew of novels about him, and he even visited our world <or a world much like ours> in one of them (which I'll chalk up to some time travel/planar mystery). I personally prefer that at some point he "ascended", because the persona is very similar. That's my personal take mind you, and I'm betting not many would like it.

If I had to pick a deity as definitely fey originating AND not likely to cause a lot of fuss... Leira, the goddess of lies and illusions. I'm not sure what kind of fey, but it definitely fits her persona.

Some folks might also get upset over this idea, given the dawn cataclysm and them wanting to be literal with it... but Beshaba also as an unseelie fey, stepping in possibly to take advantage of the death of Tyche would fit. Just her physical description kind of screams fey to me.

In all, I guess I'm seeing it more palatable that the non-multispheric deities might have these fey origins. By that statement, I mean less likely to upset the shared community.
Markustay Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 16:54:45
As I said, I think the proto-(PROTO)Pantheons weren't really so much like our modern view of them, but rather alliances amongst certain groups of gods, that may have come from all different backgrounds. Some may have been ascended mortals from the Creator Races, and some may have been Primordials, or even agents of higher beings (like fiends/celestials).

I can't see primitive peoples discounting gods of other peoples so easily (even the Romans didn't do that - they absorbed them). Why would early humans create their own 'nature deity', when there was one already available amongst the fey right next door?

I think what happened is, over time, exarchs (Chosen) were elevated by various powers to act on their behalf amongst different races, and in-time, those exarchs (ascended mortals) attained full godhood themselves. That means they may or may not still be subordinate to the original power they worked for. In fact, the same deity may be subordinate to different gods in different spheres, because each sphere is a different arena for these powers to play 'the great game'. It all comes down to the portfolios being held, not the god itself.
Gary Dallison Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 16:39:29
Well given that lots of ancient scandinavian and germanic folklore includes fey creatures, just because a deity is detailed as being worshipped by the Finnish, doesnt mean she didnt still come from Faerie.

The deities of Faerun if they were at one time primordials may have dallied in both worlds (through gates that used to link Faerun and Earth, or just between Faerie and Earth and Faerie and Faerun). Worshipped by beings on both worlds, but never really ascended to godhood on Earth and so eventually moved to Faerun (because the rules on Earth are different and so gods arent possible here - but thats just me being an atheist)

The description of Talona's avatar is also reminiscent of a hag. A tall gaunt human woman with reaching fingers. That coupled with the withered old crone with tattos and scarring description just evokes in my mind the image of that hag from the 3.5 edition monster manual (admittedly it might be the night hag i am thinking about which is an outsider, but still a hag).

sleyvas Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 16:31:02
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well now that i have my digital copy of Faiths and Avatars i am slowly getting through the various gods.

Came across a few interesting pieces on Talona.

Number 1 - The description of Talona as a withered old crone with a scarred and tattoed face in religious texts.

Number 2 - Her personality is that of a petulant child alternating between aloof and attention seeking

Number 3 - She murdered Kiputytto after the demipower challenged Talona for her portfolio.

Now i am ascribing a lot to the words used which were probably picked for other reasons.

But point one seems odd that she is depicted as a scarred old woman with tattoos and that this depictions is only in religious texts.
Now going from real world situations, the written word is a lot more faithful to its original than oral traditions, and a picture is even more faithful than the written word (spelling mistakes can play havoc with a text over millenia). So i am thinking that Talona really was a decrepid old woman with a scarred and tattoed face. This doesnt necessarily mean she was human, i am thinking (and this will probably please Markus in some way) that she was a Hag of some kind.

Point two, it is an interesting personality for a deity to have, such paradox and inconsistency could possibly highlight a fey link (which would make her a primordial to me).

Point three, and this is most interesting. Kiputytto was a demipower (which we now know means she may have been a primordial), the fact that the word murder was used implies that she was mortal. Normally a god would destroy its opponent and absorb its power, worshippers and portfolio. Here Kiputytto was just plain murdered.

So was this a battle between two ancient rivals. Some on these boards have suspicions that Kiputytto adventured with the dark three for a time which isnt something a god can or would do. Could it be that both Talona and Kiputytto were both very powerful Hag faerie lords (or ladies if you prefer).

Talona probably migrated to Toril much earlier and became a god (alternating between lesser and demipower status as her worship waxed and waned between plagues.

Kiputytto may have ventured into Toril much later when Talona was a demipower (and confined to a single avatar on Faerun) and sought to wrest the deific mantle from her. In the struggle it looks like Kiputytto lost and was either slain or it could be she was imprisoned in the High Moors near the Stonelands, or maybe both, she was slain and her soul imprisoned in the High Moors.

Either way i am thinking both Talona and Kiputytto may have been primordials/archfey from faerie.



Kiputytto is a Finnish demigoddess (see the old 1st edition deities and demi-gods). Presumably, she came over with Mielikki and Loviatar, who are also from that pantheon. According to that resource, she appeared to the world most often as "a black skinned, twisted old cron with a scarred face. The members of her cult seem to have all suffered from some wasting disease and bear the marks on their faces."

Because of the fact that she's a multi-spheric deity, I'd be hesitant to say that Kiputytto is actually "dead". Its likely to make people upset. I'd be more likely to say that Talona somehow used her powers of disease to "infect and absorb" Kiputytto's sole avatar that she had manifested in the realms. To her worshippers, they may have seen the avatar of Kiputytto literally change into Talona (or maybe they watched the two fight and literally saw Talona absorb the other).

I do like your idea that Talona was an "archfey" hag who was possibly manifesting her ability to rise as a goddess specific to Toril. This maybe gave her some homefield advantage.
Gary Dallison Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 16:14:26
Sune likewise seems a very fey like deity.

She dwells with an elf (Hanali Celani) which i suspect all elves to have been fey primordials at one point.

She is rather aloof, rarely manifesting on the material plane.

She is listed as being a friendly rival with Hanali over who is more beautiful, humans or elves, but this could just be worshipper interpretation, and really the two goddesses are rivals over which of them is the more beautiful and it has nothing to do with their worshippers.

Her list of enemies include deities that are also probably fey in origin: Talos (otherwise known as Gruumsh), Auril, Umberlee (probably the only non fey in this list), Malar, Talona, Tempus (i picture seelie fey as devoting themselves solely to the perfection of an ideal so Tempus could have been a fey devoted to the perfection of war).

Anyway, its just a possibility, although the list of possible fey linked deities is now getting rather large, but then again the links with Toril and Faerie were incredibly strong in ancient times so that is probably why.

Gary Dallison Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 15:40:23
Well now that i have my digital copy of Faiths and Avatars i am slowly getting through the various gods.

Came across a few interesting pieces on Talona.

Number 1 - The description of Talona as a withered old crone with a scarred and tattoed face in religious texts.

Number 2 - Her personality is that of a petulant child alternating between aloof and attention seeking

Number 3 - She murdered Kiputytto after the demipower challenged Talona for her portfolio.

Now i am ascribing a lot to the words used which were probably picked for other reasons.

But point one seems odd that she is depicted as a scarred old woman with tattoos and that this depictions is only in religious texts.
Now going from real world situations, the written word is a lot more faithful to its original than oral traditions, and a picture is even more faithful than the written word (spelling mistakes can play havoc with a text over millenia). So i am thinking that Talona really was a decrepid old woman with a scarred and tattoed face. This doesnt necessarily mean she was human, i am thinking (and this will probably please Markus in some way) that she was a Hag of some kind.

Point two, it is an interesting personality for a deity to have, such paradox and inconsistency could possibly highlight a fey link (which would make her a primordial to me).

Point three, and this is most interesting. Kiputytto was a demipower (which we now know means she may have been a primordial), the fact that the word murder was used implies that she was mortal. Normally a god would destroy its opponent and absorb its power, worshippers and portfolio. Here Kiputytto was just plain murdered.

So was this a battle between two ancient rivals. Some on these boards have suspicions that Kiputytto adventured with the dark three for a time which isnt something a god can or would do. Could it be that both Talona and Kiputytto were both very powerful Hag faerie lords (or ladies if you prefer).

Talona probably migrated to Toril much earlier and became a god (alternating between lesser and demipower status as her worship waxed and waned between plagues.

Kiputytto may have ventured into Toril much later when Talona was a demipower (and confined to a single avatar on Faerun) and sought to wrest the deific mantle from her. In the struggle it looks like Kiputytto lost and was either slain or it could be she was imprisoned in the High Moors near the Stonelands, or maybe both, she was slain and her soul imprisoned in the High Moors.

Either way i am thinking both Talona and Kiputytto may have been primordials/archfey from faerie.
Gary Dallison Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 21:11:42
Well i'm really trying to figure out if all those gods are gods. I am going by the best sources (2nd edition god books), but it is clear that not all of these gods are gods, and as an interesting aside I was hoping to find out if they have always been gods.

As to their backstory that's not so important. What's important is if they are primordial, deity, cosmic entity, vestige etc, and of course supporting evidence for and against so we can make a balanced decision.

Once we know what a being is we can figure out what its limits are in a general sort of way (i.e. primordials don't grant spells - at least in my world anyway).

I am with you on the method of a being becoming a superbeing can be unique (although not always so) and always makes an interesting side story but it is not the main focus of my search.

The average god seems to ascend because enough people believe he is a god. So Tyr accomplished this with his procession through Jhaamdath (realms only), the orc, dwarven, and elven gods may have ascended in a similar manner (although we have no details on their ascension just ancient stories that one would not necessarily attribute to a deity).

Whereas the unique ones are Uthgar (looks like he bound a bunch of primordial to serve him and was sponsored by Tempus as a result), Velsharoon may have stolen another gods power with Talos' help. The Dark Three were gifted their godhood by another power after they performed some quests for him. Cyric and Mystra 2 obviously had unique circumstances for ascension as well.

I wonder if Ilmater didn't ascend after making the supreme sacrifice which would make him an ascended mortal but that's just a total guess.

Certainly a lot of the Faerunian deities seem at first to be ascended mortals. They take on humanoid forms and appear to have humanoid values, but from reading other threads here they are the amalgam of many deities from other deities that have merged together as the pantheons merged.

So anyone have any other weird deities that might not be deities or may once have been something else as suggestions.
Markustay Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 14:31:52
@GK - for a guy who likes to 'connect all the dots', I find it sort of strange you stop at FR's Crystal Sphere.

Just as knowing FR lore well gives us an infinite number of plot possibilities, then adding the extra layer of the omniverse on top of that gives us that much more to use in our games. For instance, the Vedic Pantheon is present on Toril, but the Norse is not (with the exception of Tyr). Some Sages believe that the Æsir from the Norse mythos are the same as the Assura from the Vedic pantheon, which opens up a world of possibilities in that regard: What if the Norse pantheon doesn't emigrate to Toril because the Vedic pantheon are their primordial enemies? What happens in FR doesn't necessarily STAY in FR (just ask Asmodeus).

I had more here, but I'll just let it go to get back On-Topic.

Gods, Outsiders, and 'tiers':
For game-purposes, we try to create 'hard rules' for how all this stuff works, but the simple truth is, EVERYTHING is on a case-by-case basis. All of these 'spirit beings' are individuals, just as mortals are, and just like no two mortal characters are alike (unless people use gawd-awful 'builds'), no two of these beings have the same powers and abilities. If we throw in that they actually change from sphere to sphere (and have different power levels, etc), then you can see how we can never truly nail-down anything specific as far as what they can and can't do.

In other words, the lines between these different levels of beings are not so defined - they are blurred, A LOT. I theorized (along with others) that 'deity' is just a template any 'god' (spirit-being/Outsider) can acquire. What if there are others we are unaware of? What if another of these theoretical divine templates is 'Elemental ally', or 'Chaos-Infused', etc? Lets say their are an infinite number of these, just as there are an infinite number of mortal templates (SERIOUSLY - have you seen the 3e splats? ). Now lets say that within these are multiple choices, sort-of how Rangers can choose between two-weapon and bow, except that these choices are also near-limitless. That means no two gods are alike, and 'which is more powerful?' is dependent on circumstances as well.

So gods are like liches (perhaps more then I think); there is a place where they keep their 'essence' (their realm), and every last one of them got to where they are by different means, and have a completely different laundry-list of things they are capable of. You can try to categorize liches, but the fact remains, no-two are alike, and any list you create starts to fall apart upon close scrutiny. As hard as we may try, we end-up with way too many exceptions when we try to create rules governing gods as well. We can (probably) figure-out their origins, and list them that way (as Dazzerdal is attempting), but that does not define them, at all.
Gary Dallison Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 07:03:01
Well thats where I disagree. We have an example of one of these metaphysical events. Its called the dawn cataclysm and details of it are nonexistent because no one witnessed it.
Conversely these stories have much more detail and so must have had witnesses which makes them real events
Ayrik Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 23:00:57
More than that, deities are metaphors. Stories told about them are also metaphors; the battle between Gruumsh and Corellon or the tale about Tyr‘s wolf-bitten hand are described in physical, tangible, concrete ways. But the actual place and time and weapons and methods of these conflicts were probably beyond physical constraints and beyond mortal comprehensions, they inflicted permanent spiritual wounds upon the very essence of these maimed deities, the wounds themselves are metaphors which symbolize particular limits imposed on these deities. I imagine these conflicts as having occurred on a many-layered battlefield, but most understand hand-bit-off and spear-poked-out-an-eye more readily than they do injuries caused by a combination of these things with divine manifestations, magic-vs-magic, clashing artifacts, psionics, and legions of elves vs hordes of orcs.
Gary Dallison Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 14:06:41
Well i only really pay attention to 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition lore.

I think most people go with the great wheel cosmology as that makes the most sense, but even in 3rd edition arvandor was in the outer planes.

Deities are all about belief and that belief forms the outer planes. It makes no sense for a deitie's realms to be placed anywhere else.

Obviously demigods are the exception but thats kind of the reason for this thread as not all demigods are gods at all but are in fact primordials.
sleyvas Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 13:38:18
On the deities in Faerie, etc... idea... where did they finally settle with Arvandor. Outer plane or part of the feywild.... or part of the feywild that separated out into the outer planes somehow?
Gary Dallison Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 08:49:41
Marvellous, and now that Krash and Wooly have put my thread back on track. More ideas for deific categorisations please.

How about the orc deities.

I know Markus is a big fan of them being fey primordials at some point and i'm a big fan of this idea as well but there are possibilities.

We have a big story involving Gruumsh losing his eye to Corellon Larethian. Again this is a physical event and so both deities would have to be a physical entity at that time. Its clear Corellon was a fey creature so therefore Gruumsh was as well.

There is also the what at first seems a ridiculous idea of Gruumsh and Talos being the same deity all along. However, barring the cross pantheonic nightmares that causes, Gruumsh is a very good fit for a destruction deity, and what better way to get one over on the pesky humans than by persuading to worship a deity working towards their own destruction. Its probably the only 4ed deity lore i would actually entertain.

This however does beg the question of when, where and how the elf and orc gods ascended to godhood.

Given the fact that the elves that originally migrated to Toril in -27,000 DR worshipped the seelie court and not Corellon, then you can assume the Seldarine were still a primordial family at that point. Lolth had been banished to the Abyss, and there are some indications that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were banished to Toril.

Then in -17,600 DR the sundering happened and the elves transplanted a piece of Arvandor (the elvish pantheon's planar home). So by this time the elves did worship the Seldarine.

So when did the orc gods ascend.

We know the orcs arrived before the elves and the first note we have of orcs in Toril is in -24,400.
quote:
The elf city of Occidian is sacked by a horde of orcs led by the abyssal fiend Haeshkarr


Given that the orcs were led by a demon it gives some support to the idea that Gruumsh and the other orc gods had not yet ascended.

Now we don't have a time or a place for Gruumsh and Corellon's battle with each other. We do know that Gruumsh aided Lolth in her attack on the Seldarine so maybe Gruumsh lost his eye in a battle related to that conflict. And for his troubles perhaps he was banished to Toril (along with Vhaeraun and Eilistraee).

However i am thinking that following the elven and orcish migration to Toril, both primordials noticed the absence of their children and went searching for them, arriving through gates in Faerun.

Here the two families of primordials had an encounter and battled as they usually do, and during this conflict Gruumsh lost his eye. Following the two races (orcs and elves) witnessing the conflict of these awesomely powerful primordials parents they began open worship of the elven and orcish primordials and hey presto we have full blown deities - obviously the date would be sometime between -24,400 and -17,600 for this battle, the older the better)

Of course this does beg the question why nobody pinpointed a date and noted this event in the annals of history but sometimes things just get lost in time.

Any other ideas for these two pantheons?

Just as a side thought, are there any actual deities in Faerie, because it seems that all the true deities have sent followers to Faerun and i am thinking that the primordials (archfey) themselves migrated to Faerun in order to ascend because there is something about Faerie that is stopping them - i.e blocking the link between worshippers and hoping to be gods.

Wooly Rupert Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 03:43:16
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I think I'm going to be a tad heretical here. On the assumption that most FR campaigns are exclusively played in Faerun, with perhaps a few side jaunts to various planes of existence here and there, why is it important to fold in all the planar/god lore of games and campaign settings external to the Realms, into the Realms?

I can understand why TSR/WotC wanted and continue to try and create a homogenous whole out of all of their campaign settings and games - they want to sell books. Lots and lots of books. What I'm less able to understand is, unless you are planning a campaign involving a plane-hopping endless jaunt through the multiverse, why you would bother trying to explain how primordials/fey/small green men from the moon fit into the Realms. Ed's answer was always very simple - they've come from "somewhere else" via gates (now portals). He didn't need to explain anything about that somewhere else or how it existed in the great universal firmament viz a viz the Realms because there was no need to do so. He was more concerned about what merchant caravan was pulling up to the outskirts of Shadowdale and how many Zhent agents were secreted within it.

My Realms exist from the inside out. It's the Realms first and then everything external to the Realms second. If my FR PCs went to Avernus in the Hells, they would find Ed's Nine Hells from Dragon magazine, not anything I've read in a Planescape book or Fiendish Codex. If I place a primordial somewhere in my Realms, it doesn't matter where they've come from. If I introduce a new deity to the Realms (ala Tyr), again it doesn't matter where it's come from (and as an aside in my Realms Tyr subsumed a range of 'local' deites of law/justice when he arrived in the Realms - their names can be found in "Prayers From the Faithful").

I get that planar lore and deities are some people's shtick. Heck, mine is history. But when I see the Realms contorted, time and again, by WotC trying to shoehorn in the lastest buzz idea (that means you Far Realm!), I feel that it promotes a view that the Realms is pigeonhole 34B of some grand, framework of D&D excellence, and that it must be made to fit into that pigeonhole. The fans, as they do, go along for the ride. Bah humbug. Leave my Realms alone.

-- George Krashos



I agree with friend Krash, for the most part (I would use Planescape lore, where appropriate ). I've never understood the need to try to find connections simply because of similarity, or to assume if deity X from pantheon A came over, then so did the rest, or to bolt on chunks of other settings.

It's obvious that I've no problem borrowing and Realmsifying concepts, as I did with the warforged. I've also been fiddling with an NPC who is essentially a draconian. He's a one-off case, with an entirely different backstory, but someone from Krynn would assume he was a draconian or dragonspawn.

Like many of us, I do like other settings and game settings... But I don't want the settings merged into one or mixed and matched into something else -- if I'm playing in the Iron Kingdoms, I want to be a Cygnaran gun mage, and I want to keep that guy in western Immoren. He's not going to bump into hobbits with a ring, the Defender he's marshaling isn't going to be smashed by a passing Clan Wolf Shadow Cat, and he's not going to encounter Tanis Half-Elven as he steps out of a shower in 1948 Berlin. Each setting has its own strengths and weaknesses, and I like to take each one as it is.

I love Looney Toons. I've enjoyed most of the recent Marvel movies. But if I see Elmer Fudd joining the Avengers, then I'm out. Some things are meant to forever remain separate.

As I've also mentioned in the past, I do love to play in the grey areas of Realmslore. Look at my livegolems: we know the Raumathari liked and used constructs in their war with Narfell. Nothing says they tried making intelligent, free-willed constructs -- but nothing says they didn't, either, and it's not an unlikely development. So in that grey area, I put livegolems.

Ditto with my recent Halaster thread: we know Halaster's dead, we know how he bought the farm... But the official story seems to be lacking, as if there were more details that we never found out. There's a grey area -- so in there, I suggested a far-reaching plan that required his (temporary!) demise.

On the flipside, I don't see a grey area in some of what's been discussed, or I don't see enough of one. Helm and Heimdall, for example. Okay, so one covers guardians, and one guards a bridge. Okay, there are three letters in common in their names. It's not enough for me. I don't see a grey area to play in.

With Earth Tyr losing his hand to Fenris, and Toril Tyr losing his hand to Kezef, that's a grey area -- but it's a small, limited one. One possible interpretation is a connection between Kezef and Fenris. But with no other connection, I need more... If we had more connecting them, I would consider it a larger grey area, and I'd be more amenable to the idea of some connection betwixt the two.

But it seems to me that it's also possible that Toril Tyr lost his hand to a canine monster as a reflection of what happened to Earth Tyr. It's also possible that it's something inextricably tied to Tyr's destiny or essence -- on every world where Tyr is worshipped, he is destined to eventually lose a hand to some nastybad there. Those possibilities take us out of that grey area... When it's that easy to explain something away, and when there isn't solid evidence of something more, then I don't read more into it.
sleyvas Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 02:02:08
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I think I'm going to be a tad heretical here. On the assumption that most FR campaigns are exclusively played in Faerun, with perhaps a few side jaunts to various planes of existence here and there, why is it important to fold in all the planar/god lore of games and campaign settings external to the Realms, into the Realms?

I can understand why TSR/WotC wanted and continue to try and create a homogenous whole out of all of their campaign settings and games - they want to sell books. Lots and lots of books. What I'm less able to understand is, unless you are planning a campaign involving a plane-hopping endless jaunt through the multiverse, why you would bother trying to explain how primordials/fey/small green men from the moon fit into the Realms. Ed's answer was always very simple - they've come from "somewhere else" via gates (now portals). He didn't need to explain anything about that somewhere else or how it existed in the great universal firmament viz a viz the Realms because there was no need to do so. He was more concerned about what merchant caravan was pulling up to the outskirts of Shadowdale and how many Zhent agents were secreted within it.

My Realms exist from the inside out. It's the Realms first and then everything external to the Realms second. If my FR PCs went to Avernus in the Hells, they would find Ed's Nine Hells from Dragon magazine, not anything I've read in a Planescape book or Fiendish Codex. If I place a primordial somewhere in my Realms, it doesn't matter where they've come from. If I introduce a new deity to the Realms (ala Tyr), again it doesn't matter where it's come from (and as an aside in my Realms Tyr subsumed a range of 'local' deites of law/justice when he arrived in the Realms - their names can be found in "Prayers From the Faithful").

I get that planar lore and deities are some people's shtick. Heck, mine is history. But when I see the Realms contorted, time and again, by WotC trying to shoehorn in the lastest buzz idea (that means you Far Realm!), I feel that it promotes a view that the Realms is pigeonhole 34B of some grand, framework of D&D excellence, and that it must be made to fit into that pigeonhole. The fans, as they do, go along for the ride. Bah humbug. Leave my Realms alone.

-- George Krashos



For me, its all about finding links and tying them to make a story. More often than not, I throw an idea out to see what someone else makes of it. Sometimes it leads nowhere. Personally, my interest in the "Norse Gods of the realms" is that there's obviously some mystery here. There's links to the Norse and Greek Pantheons throughout the lore. Yet, its all hand waved away as you say. Meanwhile, the history that person X writes about how X country was founded is supposed to be more important to us. Personally, the religions that were around back then are just as important to me as who was the king, or who was the general that led the army into some mountains. That's why I'd really like to see some kind of history worked on about the various pantheons that have occurred throughout Toril's history. It would be something fresh, applicable to all eras, and would probably be as embraced by people as much as the GHotR has been.
George Krashos Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 00:13:07
I think I'm going to be a tad heretical here. On the assumption that most FR campaigns are exclusively played in Faerun, with perhaps a few side jaunts to various planes of existence here and there, why is it important to fold in all the planar/god lore of games and campaign settings external to the Realms, into the Realms?

I can understand why TSR/WotC wanted and continue to try and create a homogenous whole out of all of their campaign settings and games - they want to sell books. Lots and lots of books. What I'm less able to understand is, unless you are planning a campaign involving a plane-hopping endless jaunt through the multiverse, why you would bother trying to explain how primordials/fey/small green men from the moon fit into the Realms. Ed's answer was always very simple - they've come from "somewhere else" via gates (now portals). He didn't need to explain anything about that somewhere else or how it existed in the great universal firmament viz a viz the Realms because there was no need to do so. He was more concerned about what merchant caravan was pulling up to the outskirts of Shadowdale and how many Zhent agents were secreted within it.

My Realms exist from the inside out. It's the Realms first and then everything external to the Realms second. If my FR PCs went to Avernus in the Hells, they would find Ed's Nine Hells from Dragon magazine, not anything I've read in a Planescape book or Fiendish Codex. If I place a primordial somewhere in my Realms, it doesn't matter where they've come from. If I introduce a new deity to the Realms (ala Tyr), again it doesn't matter where it's come from (and as an aside in my Realms Tyr subsumed a range of 'local' deites of law/justice when he arrived in the Realms - their names can be found in "Prayers From the Faithful").

I get that planar lore and deities are some people's shtick. Heck, mine is history. But when I see the Realms contorted, time and again, by WotC trying to shoehorn in the lastest buzz idea (that means you Far Realm!), I feel that it promotes a view that the Realms is pigeonhole 34B of some grand, framework of D&D excellence, and that it must be made to fit into that pigeonhole. The fans, as they do, go along for the ride. Bah humbug. Leave my Realms alone.

-- George Krashos

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