| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 06:51:37
My current gaming group recently had a debate about how often Underdark races use contraception (as birth rates are generally lower than for, say, humans).
My contribution to the discussion was that, due to the lack of sunlight, herbal remedies (made from cannis seed or nararoot) would be either impossible to find or prohibitively expensive. Men and women would thus need to turn to magic if they wanted a reliable way to prevent conception. I pointed to the gnomes as a good source of such an item, as, in my mind, I imagined that it might take the form of a charm or a gem.
The counterargument was that as Underdark races that are not incredibly fertile, even magic forms of contraception would be uncommon. (And gnomes, as socially awkward isolationists would be particularly unlikely to be the source of trinkets meant to prevent conception.)
I did some searching in Forgotten Realms source books and didn't come up with much other than basic information. Drow are more fertile than surface elves and deep gnomes have shorter life spans than surface gnomes.
A perusal of the the forum archives produced this helpful post:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2588
I found it rich in information on surface contraception, but the thread doesn't explore Underdark races.
Does anyone have any light they can shed on the topic? Is there any lore out there about such things? (To be honest, my interest was more piqued by the lack of material I turned up than the original debate!)
I'm specifically looking to find out how the various Underdark races might view unplanned pregnancy, what ways they might have to prevent it, and if those methods would be widely available for sale.
xo,
Emma |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 03:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
The quintesential drow handbook covers the subject of conception,pregnacy and multiple births.
This is a third-party sourcebook, isn't it?
Yes.
'Tis published by Mongoose, if I'm remembering correctly. |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 01:26:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
The quintesential drow handbook covers the subject of conception,pregnacy and multiple births.
This is a third-party sourcebook, isn't it?
Yes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 01:25:15
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
The quintesential drow handbook covers the subject of conception,pregnacy and multiple births.
This is a third-party sourcebook, isn't it? |
| jerrod |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 23:47:44
The quintesential drow handbook covers the subject of conception,pregnacy and multiple births. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 23:06:54
Indeed! This is just the sort of info I've been looking for in regard to herbal and other remedies in the Underdark!
|
| Zireael |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 08:40:28
Many thanks to Ed for this excellent lore! |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 17:27:56
Great stuff! |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 17:06:51
Part IV-
"Drow
The drow of the Underdark can make use of almost all fungal remedies; some of them may not help drow (or surface elves, for that matter) as they do dwarves, gnomes, halflings, or humans, but none of them actively harm, except a combination of duncap and endlorelkor present in/on the same drow body at the same time - - which has a 4 in 10 chance of causing a painful burning internal reaction that forces the affected drow to make Fortitude saving throws for 12 successive rounds (all successes mean no damage that round, all failures mean 1d4 hp internal inflammation and tissue dissolution damage).
However, drow (of course) have and prefer their own medicines. Over the years, they have lost steady access to surface “green, growing” plants and herbs, and their usage of such medicines has withered and declined. So where an elf would use aloe or taransy (a long, thin, clinging forest vine that has clusters of hairy leaves and rosehip-like fleshy bulbs known as “braes” along its length, these braes being the medicinally-useful part of the plant) as an ointment, a drow would be suspicious of any offered plant, and would prefer “traditional drow” aids: drinkables.
Almost all drow medicines take the form of inky black, strongly flavoured, oily draughts (usually sold in distinctive “horned” fat-pentagonal glass vials - - that is, plump vials about the size of an adult drow’s palm, with the profile shape of a pentagon [[think the real-world Chrysler automobile company “Pentastar” logo]], that have smooth, sweeping curved sides, but that rise into points at every corner of the pentagon) or tinctures of wine: that is, wines to which various tissanes (teas) of other ingredients have been added.
The drow most often use an amber-hued, low-alcohol semi-sweet wine known as il’lael as a base for medicinal draughts; it is cheap wine that “plays well” with ingredients due to its low alcohol level and inherent miscibility.
All known drow draughts work on driders and other drow halfbreeds as well as they do on drow.
Amnathael: this glowing, pale green potent wine is enchanted with secret drow spells and augmented with distillates of three cavern rusts and molds (small, non-monstrous patches of immobile crimson, drab green, and blue-black flat fungi that are scraped off and then boiled, each separately, in cave water). The sole major non-il’lael-based drought, it is incredibly expensive among drow and almost unknown among other races (though it “works” on elves of the surface just as powerfully as it does on drow). It is usually a hidden “house treasure” among drow, used sparingly (and very rarely to aid non-members of a drow house). This of course makes it prized “battle booty.” Amnathael is usually administered only to sorely-wounded or badly-poisoned drow who are at death’s door. It gives an imbiber four Fortitude saving throws. The first, if successful, heals 3d4 hp worth of damage instantly; the second prevents any additional losses of hp for 1d6 turns and removes dazedness, blindness, and unconsciousness; the third neutralizes any poisons present and removes any curses or diseases; and the fourth banishes feeblemindedness and any magical or psionic mental influences. If any saving throw fails, no benefit is gained but the missed benefit moves to the next saving throw, “bumping” the last of the listed benefits into non-existence (a process that continues for each failed saving throw).
Bahalassz: this caramel-like-tasting draught instantly restores 2d4 lost hp to any imbiber (drow or otherwise, so long as they’re mammalian), but bahalassz won’t work a second time on the same individual until 33 hours elapse since their last drink of it. Bahalassz is moderately expensive (due to its usefulness) but is easily made, plentiful, and widely traded.
Revaern: this cloudy dark red, peppery-tasting draught causes regeneration of lost limbs, digits, and internal organs (with relevant regained hp). It works with astonishing speed, but that still means a day for a digit and part of a limb or organ—so restoring a working arm with all fingers, thumb, elbow and shoulder joints, and strong-enough-to-function-normally muscles take five or six days (depending on the size of the lost arm, and how much of it survived when the revaern was imbibed). During this time, the regenerating limb is very sensitive, so a solid thumping impact of it against something, or a landed blow with it (or strike of a held weapon wielded by it), can cause helplessly-reeling (no deliberate actions possible) agony for 1d2 rounds thereafter. Revaern is as expensive as amnathael, but far more plentiful, and is widely traded. It works as well on elves, half-elves, satyrs, centaurs, and dryads as on drow, and (far more slowly) for other mammalian creatures as well.
Thaumril: this silvery-hued, translucent draught quells nausea and neutralizes poisons and paralysis if imbibed by drow or driders, but confers no other benefits. It is chiefly used on pack lizards (and small Underdark reptilian pets kept by drow), as a healing medicine, one swallow restoring 3d4 lost hp. If combined two-thirds to one-third of drow blood, it doesn’t heal, but rather works as a pack lizard (and all other known reptiles, including lizardfolk) contraceptive (guarding unfailingly against contraception for 1d4+2 days per draught).
Dwarves and Duergar
All gnome fungal medicines “work” for dwarves and duergar, but something called “truestone” works much better for most maladies (as opposed to simple wounds). Non-dwarves and -duergar tend to believe truestone must be a rare specific substance, and both races encourage this misconception. In truth, “truestone” is really the balancing the internal chemistry of a dwarf or duergar individual by their ingesting a fine gravel made of all the major sorts of rocks (sandstone, granite, etc.) including some faezress-radiating minerals. This is washed down with water instead of the usual alchoholic beverages. The idea is that not-needed minerals pass right through the system and needed ones remain behind, balancing and replenishing the individual and decreasing the severity (and increasing their bodily resistance to) whatever ails them.
And for dwarves and duergar, this almost always works." |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 17:05:34
Part III-
"To heighten taste:
Narrathur: this brownish, “hairy” (covered on its uppermost surface by hundreds of tiny, hair-like cilia) slime grows in “streaks” on cold (i.e. not near a volcanic vent or flow) rocks all over the Underdark that are under standing or running water. If put into ale (or any alcoholic drink) and shaken, it dissolves into a goopy oral medicine. When imbibed, a swallow of this makes the taste buds of a creature very sensitive (and thus prone to near-rapture when pleasant tastes are experienced, or being nearly overwhelmed by unpleasant ones) for 1d4 hours. This sensitivity extends to remembering tastes previous experienced, so a user of narrathur could confirm or deny that a food or drink was the same as something consumed in the recent past, and could taste - - and perhaps identify - - faint traces of something left behind in an “empty” (but imperfectly washed) vessel, or tiny amounts of spillage. Narrathur shouldn’t be combined with kolkueth (see hereafter), because the combination will leave the consumer entirely deaf and unable to taste for 2d6 hours (onset time 1d4 rounds).
To heighten the sense of smell:
Kelkelduth: these large, fleshy, brownish-white mushrooms grow plentifully everywhere in the shallow Underdark. If boiled down into a (pale brown, distinctively bitter) tea, a single swallow or a large vat of kelkelduth will have the same effects on someone drinking it: making their sense of smell very acute for 1d4+1 hours. (This could render them especially susceptible to the harmful effects of inhaling pepper, skunk musk, and so on.) It also renders a drinker readily able to “sort out” mingled smells into their component causes. Someone affected by kelkelduth is rendered immune to its effects for 40 hours after its effects last ended for them.
To heighten hearing:
Kolkueth: these pale green-white mushrooms look like human fingers (and are known among humans as “dead mens’ fingers”), because of their length, the slight bends or kinks that usually occur halfway down their stalks, and the fact that their caps are almost the same diameter and hue as those stalks. They grow only on the ceilings of caverns and passages in the shallow Underdark, and if eaten raw, make hearing more acute for 1d20 minutes per mouthful. Raw, pickled, and kept from air by immersion in water kolkueth all lose their efficacy rapidly (in 3d4 days, no matter what is done), so kolkueth is little traded. Many who know of it have heard wild tales about its dangers (see narrathur, above, for the only real one), and so shun it. Unlike most fungi, it is a very nourishing food, in addition to its hearing-boosting properties.
To heighten vision:
Urlurhast: this yellowish “brain” or “fist” (it grows in rounded lumps that have surfaces covered with irregular furrows, that some think resembles human brains, and others believe look like the fists of various races) fungus is uncommon but found all over the Underdark, even in places where heavily and repeatedly harvested or eradicated (so its spores must be hardy and persistent). It has a taste like sharp, old cheese, a texture like wet cake, and is a nutritious Underdark food. Only if a creature bathes or immerses their eyes in water that at least one urlurhast growth has been boiled in (it will dissolve tracelessly, if this is done) does its vision-enhancing property take effect. Urlurhast doubles the range of an imbiber’s normal vision, low-light vision, and darkvision in all conditions, but also guards the eyes against being dazzled (i.e. the greater range doesn’t mean greater vulnerability to being blinded by bright light). If a creature doesn’t normally possess low-light vision or darkvision, urlurhast temporarily bestows it (with the usual unaugmented range of the creature’s normal vision). This boon lasts for 4d4 hours, acquiring a disconcerting-to-most “flickering” quality in the last half-hour that warns of its impending cessation.
And there we have it, the major gnome fungal medicines (though individuals are always experimenting, and trying to derive or perfect new ones)." |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 17:04:32
Part II-
"To deaden the pain of wounds (and alleviate shock):
“Creeper” Paste: a wet, drippable paste easily and swiftly made from a mixture of cavewater (=water flowing or seeping through rock, i.e. mineral water) and blue creeper fungus, a mindless, very-slowly-mobile bright deep blue “mat” or “sponge” fungus that moves towards any light. Once crushed, the fungus readily dissolves in the water, absorbing it at the same time, to result in “wet mud” that retains the bright deep blue hue of the fungus. The paste is applied directly to the wound (it’s harmless if ingested, but confers no benefits if taken orally). Creeper paste brings any wounded creature out of shock or a dazed or comatose state in 1d2 rounds, quells nausea in 1d3 rounds, and reduces any pain—even the severe agony of freshly-severed limbs or immersion in acid—to a dull background ache in 1d4+1 rounds. On gnomes and dwarves, this deadening lasts 4+1d4 hours (longer for heavy applications or minor wounds), but it ‘s slightly less effective on humans and halflings (3+1d4 hours), less effective still on goblinkin (2+1d4 hours), and least effective on elves, drow, illithids, lizardfolk, yuan-ti, and other sentient races (1+1d4 hours). Half-breeds are affected for the most beneficial part of their heritage (i.e. for purposes of creeper pain reduction, treat a half-elf or half-orc as a human). Blue creeper fungus is fairly common in the eastern Faerûnian Underdark, and seems to be most abundant under Raurin and southeast of that land. It is highly sought-after, and available for high prices from many surface-Realms apothecaries and traders.
To anesthetize body areas before surgery:
Duncap Mushrooms: these plentiful, human-finger-sized mushrooms have tawny-brown caps and stalks, with distinctive dark gray banding just below the cap. Their gills are a purplish-brown. When crushed directly onto the skin or exposed wounds of a body, duncap disrupts the nervous system, so no sensations are passed on (i.e. affected being loses all pain, but also all sense of touch), in that limb or localized area only. Lasts for d100 minutes for any warm-blooded mammal, d100+2d12 minutes for reptiles and other cold-blooded creatures, and unknown lengths of time for creatures with different physiognomies. Sold in small boxes as “duncap” for huge prices, this fungus is highly prized by many, and traded all over the surface world (where many buyers and sellers have incorrect ideas about where duncap mushrooms come from, believing them to be from remote jungle areas rather than the Underdark).
To cover wounds:
Endlorelkor: a filament fungus that resembles a chaotic spiderweb studded with droplets (captured water transformed into stickyness that can trap flies, nematodes, and the like to dissolve them for nutrients). When stretched over open wounds, abrasions, or areas of missing skin (even large ones, e.g. acid-splash victims), the endlorelkor sinks into the exposed tissue, flesh, and skin alike, forming a covering that slowly melds with the creature it’s been attached to, “becoming” new skin - - and in the meantime, keeping out dirt, wet contaminants such as dirty water (even if the victim is immersed or must swim in a river or vat of swill), and infections; the fungus “eats” all such things for its own nourishment, passing only clean water through to that part of the victim beneath the wound (it even stops and absorbs most poisons).
Sold as “elkor” by some surface herbalists and widely “raised” (that is, cultivated and multiplied) and traded around the Underdark, endlorelkor is effective on all known, sentient soft-skinned races. It is too plentiful to command high prices in the Underdark (where it is as useful as any staple food, and so is never dirt-cheap), but can be quite expensive in the surface Realms, where it is slowly becoming more widely known.
To promote healing:
Scaelyth: this very common Underdark cave lichen appears as (white with scalloped greenish-gray edges) oval patches on rock. These rock-hugging, tightly-adhered growths must be scraped off the rocks they’re anchored to (which reduces them to shards and shavings) that are bound directly against wounds, bruised areas, swellings, and afflicted areas (with bandages, in damp compresses, or clothing slings and wraps that keep them in direct contact). Scaelyth promotes more rapid reknitting of torn or cut ligaments, sinews, tissues, and skin, and is most efficacious for Underdark races (svirneblin, drow, illithids, duergar, and the like), less so for related surface-dwellers (such as gnomes, dwarves, and halflings who don’t dwell in deep caverns, and less still for unrelated surface dwellers (such as humans and surface-dwelling elves). Still little known in surface markets, scaelyth scrapings are typically sold in small vials “to keep them fresh” (really to command higher prices; scaelyth is neither fresh nor stale, and doesn’t rot (and its potency doesn’t seem affected by the passage of time).
To slow blood loss:
Bedelmuth: this brown, rock-clinging “button mold” looks like the caps of human-thumbnail-sized mushrooms stuck directly to rocks without a stem, roots, or gills—but this “cap” is really a round disk of mold. Scraped or plucked from its rocks and crushed directly against a wound or abrasion, it causes pores and blood vessels to contract and so constrict blood loss, and is effective in all known creatures it’s been tried on thus far (that have circulatory systems pumping blood). Bedelmuth should never be used in combination with duncap (i.e. in the same creature within about 6 hours of each other, because the constriction caused by bedelmuth combined with the nervous system shutdown caused by duncap can cause random localized cell death—in other words, killing a quarter to a third of the cells in that part of the creature’s body, something that can only be undone/repaired by healing magic). Bedelmuth is usually sold in glass vials, and is sometimes marketed as “Underdark leeches,” though its only relationship to those creatures is a superficial resemblance to some sorts of leeches.
To inhibit infection:
Sarkovar: this bluish-white thumb-sized fungus is rare, and grows in pale, glistening clusters in warmer, wet areas of the Underdark (so, near surface outlets the sun can reach down through, lava flows, and so on, where moisture is present). It’s quite common in such conditions, but rare or unseen elsewhere. It’s either eaten directly by an infected or at risk creature, or pressed against an area where infection is present or feared likely (and crushed until it becomes a slightly viscous milky-white liquid, that sinks into most creatures it comes into contact with). Sarkovar enters the cells of a body, somehow learns or knows the normal state of most cells, and brings the cells it enters to that norm, purging, minimizing, or neutralizing before it can take effect any foreign or unusual substances (i.e. the infections). It’s effective in all known mammals.
For increased fertility:
Ammabrath: soft orange-with-brown-edges growths that resemble (in shape, a miniature version of) the leaves of the surface flower known as the tulip (not the flower or stalk, just the entwined, curved, fleshy leaves). This fungi feeds on airborne dusts and seeds and insects, and has a distinctive nutmeg-like tang (it is sometimes called “false nutmeg”). Boiled down into a tea (skim the floating "leavings" off and discard, use only the cloudy brown liquid), it causes the eggs of drinkers to remain fertile longer, their skins or outer shells thinner and more receptive, and surrounding bodily fluids and defenses less potent - - so the fertility of the drinkers is increased. Ammabrath tea must be drunk warm (close to or greater than the body temperature of the drinker) to be viable at all, but it otherwise lasts indefinitely (so long as it never freezes). Ammabrath in its raw fungal form can last for years so long as air doesn’t get to it (so stored and entirely immersed in a sealed decanter of water or oil is fine). Unprotected in open air, it rots swiftly in sunlight, darkening and emitting a dark ichor - - becoming unpleasant, like rotting mushrooms in texture, looks, and smell, and useless as a medicine. Effective for all known mammals, and for creatures that “go into rut,” drinking it increases the internal sensations of mating, both pleasurable and painful.
To heighten touch:
Aunkoveir: this rust resembles nothing so much as tiny, streak-shaped patches of oily green hair, tiny “mats” of hair-like tendrils. It is distasteful to eat (imagine eating raw skunk roadkill), but is effective when ingested. More often, it is plucked from the Underdark rocks it grows on (where it’s abundant, but widely spread and never found in large patches) and slapped directly onto the area where its effects are wanted (fingertips, genital areas, breasts, and so on), where warm, almost-boiling, or boiling liquid is then poured on it, causing it to dissolve into those areas and impart increased sensation to them. Especially effective on humans and goblinkin, less so on elves and half-elves and drow, still less on halflings and gnomes, and less still on dwarves. Increasingly popular with human thieves, jewelers, and other “fine craftworkers” (such as locksmiths) doing delicate work, but long known in the wealthiest brothels and among rich courtesans for increasing the pleasures of sexual acts. Sold in long, stoppered glass tubes (to us, “test tubes”) or sealed coffers, and very expensive." |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 17:02:07
Ed was kind enough to respond to an email I sent him on this topic and has allowed me to pass this lore on to you! He had a lot to say!
This will come in a few separate comments.
"Underdark races are every bit as fertile as surface races, or even more so, but have a much higher mortality rate (and fewer “bumper harvest/year of great weather” occurrences to occasionally boost birthrates).
The dangerous Underdark environment (and in the case of drow, the organization of Lolth-dominated drow societies [there are others, though they don’t see much coverage in official Realmslore]) means unplanned pregnancies can be disastrous (even on the “survival of a race” level), so there are no religious or societal bans or even frowning upon females controlling their own bodies.
Adults generally have sex when they want to, and never have pregnancies when they don’t want to (if rape occurs, there are “after the fact” contraceptives for that, too - - coupled with the ability of all sentient Underdark races to carry eggs and sperm within the body but not allow the one to fertilize the other until the owner of the body deems the time or circumstances “right”).
Females in Lolth-dominated drow societies of course control their own bodies, have sex when they want to (and often purely for pleasure, or to give rewards/cement alliances), and become pregnant only when they want to (or Lolth wants them to, and communicates this directly or via senior priestesses). From most surface human viewpoints, most she-drow in Lolth-dominated drow societies (which is almost all drow societies surface humans ever have any dealings with) are indeed sexually aggressive and promiscuous. They could not remain so for more than a single generation without control over their own fertility.
So, yes, all sentient Underdark races have contraceptives, and because the rock caverns of the Underdark have always varied in resources from place to place, there has always been trade, lack and demand in some areas, and therefore trade-goods widely available for sale (including contraceptives). The drow bred and tamed pack lizards (from existing, handy lizards) primarily for trade/carrying purposes, not for military (for which faster steeds are available to them).
Herbal contraceptives drawn from surface plants would be largely unknown in the Underdark, and hence largely not sought through trade (though they might well work, if stumbled upon and used, though being part of any experimentation could be a mite awkward).
I’ve never seen gnomes as “socially awkward isolationists;” they have generally taken the same “blend in and slip beneath notice” approach in human-dominated surface cities as the shyest of halflings have, becoming useful, largely-ignored cleaners and cooks and craftworkers. In the Underdark, they’re certainly “isolationists” when faced with nearby hostile drow cities, but that says nothing at all about their tendencies when not living their lives in a fortified community constantly expecting attacks.
Let’s look at deep gnomes/svirfneblin.
They have male contraceptives, usually oral ingestions before sex that “take the fire out of the seed” three or four hours after eating, and lasting for a little over 24 hours unless large amounts are taken (three days is about the maximum protection, before quantities ingested become sickening, though of course a longer “safe” time can be gained by eating small amounts daily).
These contraceptives are pastes made from water, clay, and the ground-up haerathril shelf fungus (an orangey-brown, crumbly, abundant fungus that grows wherever the right rocks and moisture are present in combination with the luminescence of other fungi; haerathril usually looks like a rough oval, about as thick as an adult human’s hand, thrusting out from the rock walls (usually more or less horizontal) it’s growing from; the spores form a line, then grow outwards from it so one “edge” of the oval is attached to the rock; groups of a dozen or more haerathril grow in clusters, parallel to each other.
Females can also use haerathril, but it sickens most of them violently, and is (rarely) used in pure (grab the fungus and gnaw) form, as a post-rape or post-“unprotected accident” remedy.
Haerathri paste can dry out into a powder, or get moist enough to grow mold, and still be effective, for as long as a decade, though the duration of its protection wanes with age.
A rare alternative is the turadro mushroom found in the northern Faerûnian Underdark: small mottled green-gray cap mushrooms that grow from cavern ceilings and walls on long, curling stems. Even touching them makes goblinkin (orcs, hobgoblins, and goblins) burningly numb; if ingested they are poisonous, and cause violent retching and temporary blindness. (As a result, orcs won’t disturb them except to burn away any in a cavern the orcs intend to dwell in.) Gnomes suffer no such ill effects, and find them a longer-lasting alternative to haerathril (if eaten raw, not made into a paste).
Female gnome contraceptives are usually intrauterine. Wealthy and important gnomes usually prefer to use “lurvrello,” which are enchanted (with secret-to-gnomes sterilizing spells that render passing semen inert; some halflings have developed similar magics, and these devices are known to work on humans and are sold to them) egg- or acorn-shaped wooden (rootstalk) thingies that ride “high inside.” The spells have to be renewed about once a year; the main advantages of a lurvella is that it can be readily inserted or removed, without delay or mess. (It’s considered kinky among gnomes to lick or suck just-removed lurvella.)
Most gnomes use narthectre (in the same place within the feminine anatomy). It’s an okra-glue-like substance derived from boiling down the narthael mushroom, a tall (can grown as tall as a tall human, but is more often armpit high to an adult male human of average size), pointed-cap gray-green (cap and upper stalk) to pale greenish-white (lower stalk) mushroom, that’s most effective when renewed/replenished (applied with the fingers, sometimes as foreplay) every two days or so (more often during menstruation or at times of frequent urination).
Gnomes also use fungi for oral medicines, dermal baths/immersions/compresses, teas, and bandages (some fungi will adhere to skin by themselves).
So various fungal preparations are employed to: deaden the pain of wounds; anesthetize body areas before surgery; cover wounds; promote healing; slow blood loss; inhibit infection; for increased fertility; and to heighten the senses (for sexual pleasure and to increase performance in delicate work such as lockpicking, fine jewelry making, clockwork, or delicate needlework, and in dangerous Underdark missions when sight, hearing, and the sense of smell must be at their utmost)." |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 14:42:01
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
For (the original, 2e) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, Ed wrote two pages of fungi-derived medicines, teas, and the like used by the drow to deaden pain (i.e. before surgery), for contraception and for increased fertility, to bring on euphoria/wildly high energy, to heighten sensation (not just for pleasure, but to heighten sense of touch for delicate work, hearing and smell and sight for forays, etc.), and to speed healing and slow blood loss . . .
And it all got edited out. The short section on drow technology, however, survived.
love,
THO
Why it was edited out? To save space? 2e DotU was so short either way...
And I'd agree that there are few in the Underdark who would use contraception, since the survival of any race there depends on as high birth rate as possible.
I'd say it was because of the institutional paranoia of the anti-D&D fear-mongering of the 80's. When FOR2 was published, TSR was strenuously avoiding anything that pertained to sex, and they made a point of avoiding any kind of herblore, as well, because they were afraid someone might go out and try to mix the stuff up and have an adverse reaction to it.
Given how uptight they were in that era, it still surprises me that the "simpering man-lover from Baldur's Gate" line in Spellfire made it thru the editorial axe. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 13:14:30
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
For (the original, 2e) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, Ed wrote two pages of fungi-derived medicines, teas, and the like used by the drow to deaden pain (i.e. before surgery), for contraception and for increased fertility, to bring on euphoria/wildly high energy, to heighten sensation (not just for pleasure, but to heighten sense of touch for delicate work, hearing and smell and sight for forays, etc.), and to speed healing and slow blood loss . . .
And it all got edited out. The short section on drow technology, however, survived.
love,
THO
Why it was edited out? To save space? 2e DotU was so short either way...
And I'd agree that there are few in the Underdark who would use contraception, since the survival of any race there depends on as high birth rate as possible. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 18:04:50
An individual mindflayer is weak against the undead. Many of the various monsters they've made through experimentation, however, are not. Those vampires won't get particularly far after they run into a thoon hulk.
Anyway, back on the original topic(somewhat). I recall being told that drow priestesses employ a special kind of magical spider that will actually carry their child to term for them so they don't have to endure the trials of pregnancy. Anyone back that up? |
| fw190a8 |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 13:23:54
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I believe the 3.5 Underdark book had some bits, mainly under the equipment and items section, IIRC, and possibly the 2nd ed Drizzt's Guide and Menzoberranzan books may as well. City of the Spider Queen may also have some info. There was an article in Dragon #298, as well, that mentioned a few alchemic items, drugs, poisons, and the like used by drow. It's not FR-specific, but could apply.
Thanks. It turns out Dragon #298's pretty rich in detail on poison and it looks like a lot of the 3.5 Underdark book's information was lifted from this article. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 11:58:35
Sometimes the reputation is enough to put people off, you don´t necessarily go and try to figure out if it is true.
As for the drow, they would be mostlikely too occupied with internal struggles than go about and eradicate a mindflayer colony who could be used as business partners who won´t necessarily backstab you like other drow would.
Sometimes it is weighing the options of what is to gain and lose if you move against someone in the long run. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 03:38:06
I believe the 3.5 Underdark book had some bits, mainly under the equipment and items section, IIRC, and possibly the 2nd ed Drizzt's Guide and Menzoberranzan books may as well. City of the Spider Queen may also have some info. There was an article in Dragon #298, as well, that mentioned a few alchemic items, drugs, poisons, and the like used by drow. It's not FR-specific, but could apply.
@MT- Your assessment of their weakness against undead is part of the reason I don't find them so menacing. A few drow or duergar vampiers could wreak havok on an illithid enclave VERY quickly. As could a raiding party of Kiaransalleans. Since they tend to use undead minions almost exclusively (and many of them are undead themselves), they would likely have an easy time of it against mind-flayers. I guess the psionic powers just don't impress me much. It's not so different from magic in the end- just works differently.
Which brings me to your comment about everyone being afraid of them. Most folks are also afraid of drow, who are hardly "scary" looking (unless slightly shorter elves with REALLY dark tans scare you, LOL) but for basically the same reason. They have NASTY reputations, and are almost as rarely seen. |
| fw190a8 |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 13:59:48
Sorry to take a step back from the illithid discussion and all, but I was wondering about something. Lots of people in the early stages of this thread mentioned that there must be lots of herbs and fungi with medicinal properties in the Underdark, and The Hooded One kindly mentioned that Ed had this section cut from the source material.
I'm wondering if there IS any canon information about vegetation (particularly with medicinal applications) in the Underdark. All I can find are vague references unfortunately. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 17:24:50
First, Illithids are insanely weak against undead - even simple zombies. They are invisible to them both visibly and mentally (illithids mental abilities negates the other senses becoming more acute in the Underdark, as it is with so many other subterranean races). Of course, the fact that 3e got rid of infravision screws up the lore in the Illithiad, but I take fluff over rules any day (to me, it falls under the same category of "setting-specific lore trumps generic lore").
By the same token, EVERYONE (even Chosen - read RotAW) are frightened of mindflayers, so there must be a good reason for that (and not just because they are scarey looking). Also, they are wary of drow but show disdain for everyone else, and the Drow feel the same exact way about them. Drow being what they are, thats very telling - Drow have an amazing amount of hubris (even more so then gold Elves in most cases). They are incredibly powerful, but just like like powerful undead, they have specific weaknesses that a careful group can exploit.
Also, their main weakness - their numbers - is alleviated when you get into the deep-dark. On the surface you rarely encounter more then one or two illithids - those are the anomalies. Most of them cluster around their elder Brains, and good luck trying to overcome that. So if the one or two that occasionally show up on the surface can strike terror into the hearts of so many, who the hell is going to attack a city of them? (aside from Phaerimm, who have even enslaved an entire city of beholders... now those guys are UBER). |
| Sightless |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 14:00:14
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I've read those books, too, S, and sorry, but I just don't think they are as powerful as they are made out to be. What happened to their empire, if it was so powerful even the Blood War paused? A better question would be- why did it FALL? A telling question, IMHO. All-powerful empires of mind-controlling tyrants who use their thralls as cattle and breeding tools don't fall without good reason. And the fact that their numbers have declined so greatly and for so long tells me that, evolutionary-wise, they are simply a non-viable species, ultimately. A dead-end. Even their arrogance regarding other races says something about their actual capabilities. If they were so superior, why is it that "lesser" races now dominate over both the Underdark and the surface?
From a purely psychological view, they are like bullies trying to cow everyone into bending to their wills, but by using mind-control. But when push comes to shove, they are no tougher than any other race. And given their food requirements, it's no wonder other races would want them eliminated. The most amazing thing to me is how anyone could think they ARE so uber-bada$$! Clearly, they can't handle anything that is immune to their powers, particularly undead, which they seem to actually fear. Ditto for anything that can also use psionics as well as themselves, or counter it with magic. Drow especially have a high number of powerful wizards who would pose a significant threat.
While it's true that they can pose a serious threat to small groups, that's just it- only to small groups. Get them fighting against larger forces, and they are royally fubarred, because they can only handle so many foes, and this does not take commanding their thralls into account. One misjudgement, one slip of control, and their own slaves quickly turn against them. Then they have to fight not just the enemies, but even their own protectors! At what point does one have to spell out defeat? Sorry, but I just can't buy into them being so powerful that they would remain as a serious problem in the Underdark for long. If nothing else, several of the more powerful races would eventually decide to eliminate the competition simply out of desire for resources. And given that some of those races were tinkered with or have evolved protection from them, I find it highly suspect that it doesn't happen.
Your assuming that they have to directly control their slaves their throlls all the time. The information indicates that's not the case. that's only with new throlls, other throlls that have been among them for perlonged periods of time don't have this concern, they have working for the mind-flayers so ingrained into their psychi that a mind-flayer doesn't directly have to control them. this is how they can go to war, and do it effectively. And I don't see the drow banding together to fight the mind-flayers, that whole level of coperation just isn't in there nature. Well, correction that one city that's ruled by mages might fit your description, and they'd even be smart enough to hire gray dwarves to help them do it. magic with gray dwarf power to back it up, there that's how the mind-flayers could see a drastic decline in numbers. Still figuring out exactly where they are isn't going to be a piece of cake, to many places in the deep underdark are shielded from scrying and there are too many psyonic abilities that can block it. So they'll just have to find it the old fashioned way, or sleep some item onto a slave they trade and hope that it's notfound. sure you can ask slave traders for where they do trading, but since many of those deals don't happen in mind-flayer cities, that might not be the best option. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 04:25:00
I've read those books, too, S, and sorry, but I just don't think they are as powerful as they are made out to be. What happened to their empire, if it was so powerful even the Blood War paused? A better question would be- why did it FALL? A telling question, IMHO. All-powerful empires of mind-controlling tyrants who use their thralls as cattle and breeding tools don't fall without good reason. And the fact that their numbers have declined so greatly and for so long tells me that, evolutionary-wise, they are simply a non-viable species, ultimately. A dead-end. Even their arrogance regarding other races says something about their actual capabilities. If they were so superior, why is it that "lesser" races now dominate over both the Underdark and the surface?
From a purely psychological view, they are like bullies trying to cow everyone into bending to their wills, but by using mind-control. But when push comes to shove, they are no tougher than any other race. And given their food requirements, it's no wonder other races would want them eliminated. The most amazing thing to me is how anyone could think they ARE so uber-bada$$! Clearly, they can't handle anything that is immune to their powers, particularly undead, which they seem to actually fear. Ditto for anything that can also use psionics as well as themselves, or counter it with magic. Drow especially have a high number of powerful wizards who would pose a significant threat.
While it's true that they can pose a serious threat to small groups, that's just it- only to small groups. Get them fighting against larger forces, and they are royally fubarred, because they can only handle so many foes, and this does not take commanding their thralls into account. One misjudgement, one slip of control, and their own slaves quickly turn against them. Then they have to fight not just the enemies, but even their own protectors! At what point does one have to spell out defeat? Sorry, but I just can't buy into them being so powerful that they would remain as a serious problem in the Underdark for long. If nothing else, several of the more powerful races would eventually decide to eliminate the competition simply out of desire for resources. And given that some of those races were tinkered with or have evolved protection from them, I find it highly suspect that it doesn't happen. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 03:15:40
I think the big difference is using them in a story where the author already has something plained out and isn't taking into consideration proper response methods, and the same group in the hands of a compatent DM. Some of the devices you mentioned wont work if the mind-flayer is only a pawdry leveled psionicist, or happens to be carrying psionic items, or if a deviner, in the group, which they have plenty of has already gotten a jump on your possible actions. Again, big difference here, story where I am going to say this is going to happen to a group of mind-flayers, and am not really interested in giving them the oppertunaty to respond, for polot purposes. And in the Lords of madness they do talk about Mindflayers that specialize in a mix of psionics and hand to hand combat. And in those cases where an onclave was destroyed, it wasn't long before everyone heard about it, simply because it freaked everyone out. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think their so uber race tat can't be destroyed, just like any other group in the underdark. I'm just saying that I think you are minimizing them a great deal.
Why, I can only speculate, but I strongly believe that you aren't taking what they are capable of into account. and the possible damage they could inflict. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 02:44:09
And that analogy is wrong why, exactly? Being "intellectually superior" from the illithids' viewpoint (and I don't believe they truly are- there are plenty of mages and others who are every bit as intelligent) is pretty much the same thing as a human's viewpoint vs a turtle's. Except that in this case, the "higher, more intelligent" being is the one in the minority. In ANY population, the greater number means a greater chance of survival in case of natural disaster, plague, famine, etc. The smaller the population, the greater chance of that population going over the tipping point into extinction. Doesn't matter how smart they are. There are plenty of examples of human populations doing exactly that, and being eradicated, by other groups with larger populations. Are otehrs terrified of illithids? Perhaps, but one should always consider at what point fear is overridden by survival instinct or even rage. Both can and do seem to play a part when dealing with supposedly superior forces. And honestly, their powers do not strike me as being as far superior as all that. We saw in Exile how just ONE chaotic element that can't be controlled can bring an entire enclave crumbling to nothing. All that power, and they could not even stop a single undead drow, or even regain control of their own thralls! Methinks someone overestimates their abilities. Stat-wise, they aren't even THAT powerful to begin with. They have a CR of 8 in 3.5, and are relatively weak physically. Their Con is not all that high, either, when compared to most creatures. Niether is ther AC. They were even less impressive in 2nd, with a THAC0 of 11 (average) and an AC of 5 (also average). The only thing in 2nd that made them scary was the mind blast, and spell resistance, which was 90%, but was only 25 in 3.5. They are, at best, a mid-level opponent, and there are plenty of races in the Underdark that are
nearly as powerful, on average, and possess far greater numbers- meaning that they are more successful. One has to wonder why that is.
As for consequences, what fills in that power vacuum? Beholders? Not likely, as their numbers are equally small, if not more so, and they are usually solitary in any case. Occassional colonies aside, most are too territorial to share power with others of their kind, or even variant beholder-kin. Duargars, possibly, and Derro to a lesser extent, but most likely drow. But what happens if a near-by city finally decides they are tired of the lurking threat and does something about it? not only does it wipe out the local enclave- thus freeing any slaves that don't get slaughtered along the way- but it leaves new territory ripe for the claiming, most likely by the very force that just opened it up. Meaning more resources with less competition. If Matrons have thought about this before, there must be some reason they haven't done it before. Or perhaps they have, and we simply haven't heard about it yet. Illithids tend to keep on the fringes of Underdark politics, getting involved rarely, but when they do, others take notice- and mark the threat. And there are plenty of spells that are relatively easy to access that can protect from them. Mind Blank or Mind Fog, Clarity of Mind, Cloak of Bravery, etc. just to name a few. Others that can be turned on them are those like Assay Spell Resistance, Defenestrating Sphere, Spell Vulnerability, and more. Drow especially might have access to many of these, but any who routinely deal with- or live in proximity to- illithids might be compelled to research some of these. Combine that with the fact that some other races have their own psionicists, and illithids' powers really don't seem so terrifying after all.
Their main psionic abilities that would be useful in a battle are domination , suggestion, ESP, and mindlink, but these require some concentration, and could only be used on a limited number of foes at a time. Meanwhile, they would be easily overwhelmed by those who either resist their attacks, are protected, or simply don't get targeted quickly enough. How many enemies can a mind flayer target with its pwoers? A dozen? That leaves many more untouched, to mow them down. I look at it from the standpoint of: how likely is this race to survive in the event of a concerted effort to eradicate them by those they prey upon, once they've had enough? Answer- at least as far as I can tell- not very. YMMV, of course, but honestly, they've just never impressed me with the "ooh, scary brain-eating genious monster!" schtick. A decent party of prepared adventurers could mop the floor with most of them.... |
| Sightless |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 01:08:16
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
the group that revolted was psycicly active themselves, that's the giant difference, the utterly and gigantic difference. They had the psyonic tools to fight back and to get others to help them fight back. Orcs, humans, and drow, for the most part don't have those powers. Sure there are some with them, but it's a handful versus an entire population. And the revolt didn't even happen on Toral. What your seeing in the underdark is a piece, not even the tip of the ice burge, the same with the Githyanky that are running loose in various plains.
I was referring to exactly that issue with turtles- that human interferance has pushed many species past the tipping point. Intelligent or not, enough enemies massed against them would do the same with mind flayers. Their enemies are just as intelligent (illithid arroc=gance in that regard notwithstanding) and would have devised means ahead of time to counter their abilities, or at least render the point moot with sheer numbers if nothig else. I don't consider it a "nonissue". Numerical advantage is ALWAYS an issue in war. Just ask those 300 guys at Thermopolae, or the 150 at the Alamo... I could name other examples, but you get the idea. If say, Menzo decided to march against the nearest mind flayer enclave en masse, would they take losses? Sure, mostly in slave soldiers, which is how the illithids would fight back initially as well, but the drow would probably use magic to protect their more valuable troops, and have other tricks such as invisibility, darkness, etc, to give them the advantage. Poisons also work wonders, and can be delivered from a distance via bows, crossbows, darts, and spells. illithids seem somewhat limited by their distain for magic and their reliance on their mental capabilities. Martial prowess is also not their strong suit (at least for most), so thei would have a distinct disadvantage there.
I'd also like to point out that I was referring to the races from which the slaves originate, not neccessarily that they are continually raiding them to get more. I'm aware that they breed them, just as drow do (see Shakti's tirade against the goblins who tried to revolt on the rothe island of Lake Donigarten in Daughter of the Drow) however, as you said, there are always instances where they need more for whatever reason, or simply because they are seeking slaves with some particular skill or physical traits that may be in short supply. either way, those slaves would be more likely to rebel, and this could cause them to loose their hold on the rest.
And your point about the empire may be valid- on the surface. BUT! One has to wonder just how powerful it really was, if a few uprisings were able to destroy it so completely, to the point that only a few scattered enclaves are left. They are already, it would seem, holding on to existance by a tenuous thread- one that could (and seems likely to eventually) snap at any time, with the right push.
|
| Sightless |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 01:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I was referring to exactly that issue with turtles- that human interferance has pushed many species past the tipping point. Intelligent or not, enough enemies massed against them would do the same with mind flayers. Their enemies are just as intelligent (illithid arroc=gance in that regard notwithstanding) and would have devised means ahead of time to counter their abilities, or at least render the point moot with sheer numbers if nothig else. I don't consider it a "nonissue". Numerical advantage is ALWAYS an issue in war. Just ask those 300 guys at Thermopolae, or the 150 at the Alamo... I could name other examples, but you get the idea. If say, Menzo decided to march against the nearest mind flayer enclave en masse, would they take losses? Sure, mostly in slave soldiers, which is how the illithids would fight back initially as well, but the drow would probably use magic to protect their more valuable troops, and have other tricks such as invisibility, darkness, etc, to give them the advantage. Poisons also work wonders, and can be delivered from a distance via bows, crossbows, darts, and spells. illithids seem somewhat limited by their distain for magic and their reliance on their mental capabilities. Martial prowess is also not their strong suit (at least for most), so thei would have a distinct disadvantage there.
I'd also like to point out that I was referring to the races from which the slaves originate, not neccessarily that they are continually raiding them to get more. I'm aware that they breed them, just as drow do (see Shakti's tirade against the goblins who tried to revolt on the rothe island of Lake Donigarten in Daughter of the Drow) however, as you said, there are always instances where they need more for whatever reason, or simply because they are seeking slaves with some particular skill or physical traits that may be in short supply. either way, those slaves would be more likely to rebel, and this could cause them to loose their hold on the rest.
And your point about the empire may be valid- on the surface. BUT! One has to wonder just how powerful it really was, if a few uprisings were able to destroy it so completely, to the point that only a few scattered enclaves are left. They are already, it would seem, holding on to existance by a tenuous thread- one that could (and seems likely to eventually) snap at any time, with the right push.
You seem to forgot unlike turtles, everyone's terified of Mindflayers. Most to the point that they'd rather deal with anything, anything else. Lords of maddness makes that abondently clear.
Second, your analogy is based around lower order lifeform having a problem with a higher order lifeform. Using your analogy, it would be the forces attacking the mindflayers, lots of, versus extremly high order psionically capable beings. The best chance you've got for dealing with it, is lots, and lots of magical items that can fight against mind wrap, or getting another psionically powerful race to do it for you... yeah this last might not work to good for you either. Then there's the fact that everything in the underdark works under a certain degree of expected balancing act, nobody pushes to hard, to fast, because the rpercutions for most other groups is bad. Let's say you manage to kill the mind flayers, or do enough damage that they say to heck with it, where leaving and go plains hopping. Think of the gigantic eco-system upset that could come as a consequence. I garantee that a few matren moters have thought about it long and hard. Then there's the gray dwarves, the group that would probably be most likely to want to see the Mind-flayers gone, they know on some level it's them that probably keeping the eye tyrants from saying, let's have a little fun by making tons of rock just disappear... along with a few cities. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 00:41:13
On a simple logistical level a concentrated effort to exterminate the illithids would be impossible. They're a race that lives deeper in the underdark than the drow, in places no one else knows about and no one can find. You'd have to cross through hostile terrain and through hostile territory- drow aren't just going to let an army pass through their turf because they say the're off to attack the mindflayers.
Once you get to the illithids, assuming you do, then you're in trouble because your army's already beat to hell from the journey and you're fighting an entrenched enemy on their own territory. Not just any enemy. An enemy that can get inside your mind. Make your thoughts their thoughts. Half your army would slaughter the other half because the illithids told them to.
Then you aren't just dealing with the illithids themselves, nor are you just dealing with the slaves who they send out to fight- which include all manner of underdark races from orcs to drow to deep dragons. You're fighting mind flayers that have been implanted in chuuls, ropers, and dragons. You're fighting the countless mutated creatures illithids create in their twisted experiments- non of which the human or even elven soldiers you've assembled would be familiar with or prepared to deal with. All while being assailed by an assembled force of the most powerful psions on the mortal plane.
Two illithids are capable of killing an adult gold dragon. An attack on a city full of the things would basically be feeding them. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 23:24:03
I was referring to exactly that issue with turtles- that human interferance has pushed many species past the tipping point. Intelligent or not, enough enemies massed against them would do the same with mind flayers. Their enemies are just as intelligent (illithid arroc=gance in that regard notwithstanding) and would have devised means ahead of time to counter their abilities, or at least render the point moot with sheer numbers if nothig else. I don't consider it a "nonissue". Numerical advantage is ALWAYS an issue in war. Just ask those 300 guys at Thermopolae, or the 150 at the Alamo... I could name other examples, but you get the idea. If say, Menzo decided to march against the nearest mind flayer enclave en masse, would they take losses? Sure, mostly in slave soldiers, which is how the illithids would fight back initially as well, but the drow would probably use magic to protect their more valuable troops, and have other tricks such as invisibility, darkness, etc, to give them the advantage. Poisons also work wonders, and can be delivered from a distance via bows, crossbows, darts, and spells. illithids seem somewhat limited by their distain for magic and their reliance on their mental capabilities. Martial prowess is also not their strong suit (at least for most), so thei would have a distinct disadvantage there.
I'd also like to point out that I was referring to the races from which the slaves originate, not neccessarily that they are continually raiding them to get more. I'm aware that they breed them, just as drow do (see Shakti's tirade against the goblins who tried to revolt on the rothe island of Lake Donigarten in Daughter of the Drow) however, as you said, there are always instances where they need more for whatever reason, or simply because they are seeking slaves with some particular skill or physical traits that may be in short supply. either way, those slaves would be more likely to rebel, and this could cause them to loose their hold on the rest.
And your point about the empire may be valid- on the surface. BUT! One has to wonder just how powerful it really was, if a few uprisings were able to destroy it so completely, to the point that only a few scattered enclaves are left. They are already, it would seem, holding on to existance by a tenuous thread- one that could (and seems likely to eventually) snap at any time, with the right push. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 08:21:05
And they can funttion quite fine without an elder brain, there are plenty of occasions where this is the case, and there doesn't seem to be a case that controling large numbers of thralls is that difficult for them, given some of what I have read.
Such as what is described in "Lords of Madness". |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 06:10:30
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And out of those hundreds of turtles, only a dozen or so may survive to adulthood. Illithids are even fewer in number, as usually only perhaps a hundred total eggs are laid, and out of those, only a few even survive to be implanted. With breeding rates like that, they should've gone extinct long ago. Keep in mind, most sea turtles are on the endangered list FOR A REASON. Even without humans killing them for food and/or shells, they have low survival rates.
I don't consider illithids THAT powerful. They may have some impressive psychic abilities, but they are just as vulnerable to good old sword-and-spell death. Furhter, I wasn't so much referring to the slaves, but to the races those slaves came from- most would be more than happy to take out the illithids in retaliation, or simply for pre-emptive attacks. "An once of prevention..."
For that matter, all it takes is one ticked-off former slave (a'la Drizzt wreaking havok on the elder brain to turn their world inside out and collapse an entire enclave. Next theing you know, the slaves are revolting, and by the time the dust settles, there's not enough mind-flayers left to regain control. We've seen it happen in canon once already. Considering that each settlement might have only a few hundred illithids at most, but several thousand slaves, what are the odds, realistically, that they could keep control indefinitely? Or put up a serious defense gainst an invading force, when much of their power must be focused on controling their own slaves in the battle, often against much more powerful forces that can think for themselves?
And yes, there are uprisings in drow cities, but they are only successful until the priests and wizards mobilize. Illithids would have it worse, since 1, they tend to sneer at magic, and 2, once they loose control of the slaves, it's much harder to regain it in the chaos of a battle.
Sea turtles are endangered precisely because of humans hunting them. Illithids are intelligent enough and powerful enough to make that a nonissue.
As for where those slaves come from I'd imagine most of them are home grown. They breed their slaves like cattle, letting them reproduce in house. So after the initial raid, they have to capture fewer and fewer as the generations pass until it reaches the point that the only time they'd need to raid the other races for fresh slaves at all would be situations such as a plague wiping out most of their stock or to get specific individuals for experimentation.
Personally I consider illithids more powerful than drow. They're not as numerous and not as likely to involve themselves in the affairs of surface races on anything more than an individual basis, but the illithids at one point controlled a planes-spanning empire so powerful that the Blood War paused so the demons and devils could consider teaming up to deal with it(they didn't, but just the fact that it was considered speaks of the power of this empire). Their empire may have been broken by the gith uprisings, but even a small fragment of such a civilization would be a force to be reckoned with. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:00:01
Those are all valid points, but to raise one point, there's no reason to assume that the mind flayers aren't slowly molding their slaves over time to the thought that resistence is impossible. Like that one Mind flayer lich in the war of the spider queen series; slowly working on the minds of the drow under his control. A group of coperative mind flayers would have a much better chance at doing this than let's say one individual. I do know, that according to an issue of Dragon magazine that one onclave of mind-flayers created a psionic device that made it very easy for the overbrain to control their thralls. Of course I suspect that some groups would be over confident enough to not take these protections. It's easy when you can conrol a being's mind as many mind flayers can do with many of their slaves to become over confident, and then, dye to some grand event when they aren't expecting it. That's also not taking into consideration that their not the only psionic species out there, who don't look on the mind flayers kindly. No, there are plenty of natural forces keeping this species population in check. It might grow, but it will never grow on the same level as many of the other underdark species. |
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