| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 21:43:00
Champions of Ruin really has given us a big connundrum to deal with. The Realms have never been a place where divine spellcasters can get spells from a "concept" even though in standard D&D this has been introduced. The Eldreth Veluuthra now, though, are listed as being able to get magic from "nature" as a concept, so its rangers and druids have spells.
This gives us a few problems. One of three options becomes apparent:
1. Concepts are now starting to be able to power divine magical abilities. This means other concepts besides Nature should follow. This would also start to cause some problems since Ao declared the symbiotic relationship that inhabitants of the Prime and the gods should have.
2. Nature somehow is a different concept than any other concept and can grant divine spells when all other concepts cannot do so. This would require some kind of explanation about the difference between nature as a concept and another concept, such as Justice or Balance.
3. Somehow a god is involved. Since we have several instances of evil groups that receive spells that don't realize where the spells actually come from, this one seems the most likely, but the description in Lords of Darkness seems to almost completely rule this out.
Any fellow scribes care to add their two coppers? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MathiasSymbaern |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 06:31:47
I stand corrected. I assumed too much about Kymil Nimesin. His motives so closely paralleled those of the Eldreth Veluuthra's and He was present at the time of the fall of Myth Drannor. I mixed my stories and created my own.
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 19:27:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think a founding date has been given for the Eldreth Veluuthra, though reading the text makes me think it was around the time of Myth Drannor's fall (if not a decade or so later) that it went from being a group of disgruntled elves to an organization with a specific goal.
-No, there isn't an exact founding date. It's anywhere in the window between 262 DR (when the above mentioned families left Myth Drannor in protest) and 757 DR (when the first murder of Humans/Half-Elves was attributed to the Eldreth Veluuthra.
-I, personally, feel that it was founded sometime between 262 DR and 523 DR, the latter date being when House Starym returned to Myth Drannor in full force. It existed, however, as a philosophy or political movement, rather than an actual organization that engaged in violate crimes. It was only later- and the fall of Myth Drannor is a good metamorphosis point- that it evolved into an actual "terrorist organization". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 19:15:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, that's when they left. The Eldreth Veluuthra's first recorded acts were 5 centuries later.
-The above five are the founding families of the Eldreth Veluuthra, which was the query. For those that do not know, I added that they left in 262 DR, in protest of the Coronal's policies. The organization was founded sometime between 262 DR and 757 DR.
Understood. I was just clarifying, since your words could have been read with 262 DR being the founding date. 
I don't think a founding date has been given for the Eldreth Veluuthra, though reading the text makes me think it was around the time of Myth Drannor's fall (if not a decade or so later) that it went from being a group of disgruntled elves to an organization with a specific goal. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 18:49:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, that's when they left. The Eldreth Veluuthra's first recorded acts were 5 centuries later.
-The above five are the founding families of the Eldreth Veluuthra, which was the query. For those that do not know, I added that they left in 262 DR, in protest of the Coronal's policies. The organization was founded sometime between 262 DR and 757 DR. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 18:07:21
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-The founding families of the Eldreth Veluuthra were the:
Bharaclaiev
Hyshaanth
Rhaevaern
Starym
Tellynn
-We do not have specific individuals, though it is likely that the patrons/matrons of these families were the ones who did it. This occurred in DR 262, when they left Myth Drannor in protest of Coronal Eltargrim's liberal policies.
Well, that's when they left. The Eldreth Veluuthra's first recorded acts were 5 centuries later. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 17:09:14
-The founding families of the Eldreth Veluuthra were the:
Bharaclaiev
Hyshaanth
Rhaevaern
Starym
Tellynn
-We do not have specific individuals, though it is likely that the patrons/matrons of these families were the ones who did it. This occurred in DR 262, when they left Myth Drannor in protest of Coronal Eltargrim's liberal policies. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:17:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MathiasSymbaern
Nimesin is a founding memeber of the Eldreth Veluuthra
Where does this come from? I know of no evidence that links Kymil Nimesin to the Eldreth Veluuthra, and I don't think he's old enough to have even been around when they were founded -- the group has been around for at least 6 centuries.
Seconded, on both points. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 23:33:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I think that Ghaunadaur would be an excellent divine patron for Eldreth Veluuthra 
I don't have any specific issue with that, although Ghaunadaur's unpredictable nature may make it difficult for the EV to finalise any type of "permanent" relationship with That Which Lurks.
The EV are direct and they need constant support for their "war" against humankind. They need a divine patron that can be "relied" upon to provide them with the power they require to execute their operations across the human-infested areas of the Realms.
But Ghaunadaur is pretty reliable so long as you keep the sacrifices flowing across the altar.
That's part of the problem. In the end, Ghaunadaur would expect his most faithful among the EV to sacrifice themselves to the Elder Eye. And I doubt the most prominent members of the EV would willingly make that self-sacrifice. Thus, Ghaunadaur may be less-inclined to divinely support the efforts the the EV.
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| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 23:30:25
I would just have some arch-fiend looking to gather some power be responsible for the EV crew gaining their divine spells... corrupting elves or (anyone, for that matter) is what fiends are all about. And, if I remember correctly, aren't those elves stereotypically lawful evil in alignment?
Pick a fiend you like and decide he's using the eldreth veluthra to advance some other cause... or intending to fully convert them over time. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 23:26:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Heh . . . wouldn't it be interesting if an old member of House Starym had become a demi-god?
Or even more fun: the Starym moonblade.
Mind you, I've no idea how a sword would attain godhood, but it seems a fun idea. 
Say, wasn't there an evil sword that became a Darklord in Ravenloft? I remember an old Dungeon adventure about it.
You're referring to Ebonbane, of the Shadowborn Manor domain. 'Twas from DUNGEON #31 "Bane of the Shadowborn" and the 2e Darklords RAVENLOFT tome. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 18:15:27
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
But Ghaunadaur is pretty reliable so long as you keep the sacrifices flowing across the altar.
-Ghaunadaur is known for not being reliable. Regardless of offering sacrifices and such it's way, it's likely to aid someone/something else at a moment's notice. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 16:16:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I think that Ghaunadaur would be an excellent divine patron for Eldreth Veluuthra
I don't have any specific issue with that, although Ghaunadaur's unpredictable nature may make it difficult for the EV to finalise any type of "permanent" relationship with That Which Lurks.
The EV are direct and they need constant support for their "war" against humankind. They need a divine patron that can be "relied" upon to provide them with the power they require to execute their operations across the human-infested areas of the Realms.
But Ghaunadaur is pretty reliable so long as you keep the sacrifices flowing across the altar.
Myself, I wonder if maybe a demon lord (or an archdevil, considering the usually Lawful Evil nature of the EV) was providing them with divine magic, pretending to be someone else all the while?
A very good example would be the Demon Lord of the Evil Fey and Wilderness, Malgarius the Demon Tree, who I see as a corrupted fallen treant lord. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 16:11:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Heh . . . wouldn't it be interesting if an old member of House Starym had become a demi-god?
Or even more fun: the Starym moonblade.
Mind you, I've no idea how a sword would attain godhood, but it seems a fun idea.
Say, wasn't there an evil sword that became a Darklord in Ravenloft? I remember an old Dungeon adventure about it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 15:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by MathiasSymbaern
Nimesin is a founding memeber of the Eldreth Veluuthra
Where does this come from? I know of no evidence that links Kymil Nimesin to the Eldreth Veluuthra, and I don't think he's old enough to have even been around when they were founded -- the group has been around for at least 6 centuries. |
| MathiasSymbaern |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 15:14:40
Kymil Nimesin is a worshiper of Lolth, even though he did not know it. He was rescued from his extra dimensional prison by Lolth and Ghaunadar, he was quite suprised when she claimed he was one of her own. This is from the novel,Evermeet: Island of the Elves. Nimesin is a founding memeber of the Eldreth Veluuthra |
| Amluril Dire-Weaselbane |
Posted - 27 Feb 2008 : 15:46:29
IMO Moander or Malkizid,
Lolth as a greater power would be too enwrapped in playing with he new power than using subterfuge to try and undermine the Seldarine. For the first time since her branding as a traitor she has the power to stand toe to toe with Corellon - a scary thought!
As the Staryms have already turned to Moander for aid it would make him a viable candidate, especially as he was the old god of corruption.
The real question I suppose is who would have the most to gain from granting them spells? |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 22:42:34
Honestly, you guys went way too evil for my tastes. In my games, the EV is supported by Shevarash in blanket contradiction to the rest of the Seldarine. Humans have been pushing around elves way too much so who better than the Elven God of Revenge?
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 16:31:37
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm. You have a point there, but I think that many sages have been reluctant to accept this "divine force of Nature" because it contradicts what Ed himself has told about divinity and divine forces in the Realms (i.e. that there is always a deity behind divine powers). That is why I never allowed "Ur-Priests" and such "tap into Cosmic Omnipresent Power" -type of Prestige Classes or feats in my campaigns.
But Ed did specifically say that Ur-Priests in the Realms can exist, and that they too receive their powers from evil gods that like to fuel them for whatever purposes. They still get their powers from the gods, but they think that they are "stealing" their divine powers.
But I get your point, as I was hesitant to use them until I read that response.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 00:41:19
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmmm. You have a point there, but I think that many sages have been reluctant to accept this "divine force of Nature" because it contradicts what Ed himself has told about divinity and divine forces in the Realms (i.e. that there is always a deity behind divine powers). That is why I never allowed "Ur-Priests" and such "tap into Cosmic Omnipresent Power" -type of Prestige Classes or feats in my campaigns.
Indeed. Consider this tidbit from Ed back in July '05 -
"In 2nd Edition, 1st and 2nd level spells could be gained or renewed without direct connection to any deity (and so were obtainable during a Godswar, as I suggested in DRAGON #54, and we later all saw in the Time of Troubles). As a general rule, divine spells should be granted by deities (or their servant creatures) only as a result of direct prayer: in other words, yes, divine casters must worship a specific deity and not a cause or broad aspect.
However (weasel time), there will be exceptions, because in the endless game of one-up-god-ship that Faerūnian deities play, subtly struggling for supremacy over each other, dominance over intelligent races and events that affect their societies, and defense of personal portfolios, gods (and their loyal servant creatures) will often grant spells to mortals out of the blue, or under false pretenses, or whatever - - just to try to influence those events and achieve some unknown-to-mortals aim or temporary victory in the ongoing godly struggle. As Ive said before, there are secrets about the gods I cant yet reveal, but all of this boils down to: MOST divine casters get their spells by praying directly to a deity and serving that deity adequately (serve poorly, and your prayers may not be answered at all; serve superbly, and you may even receive extra magic), but A FEW divine casters may, for indefinite periods, receive spells when venerating only a cause, broad aspect, or even a dead or the wrong god."
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| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 00:40:06
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
Another option is Lolth masquerading as Moander. Now wouldn't that brown the EV off when they find that out? ;)
This was actually canon before Power of Faerūn came out, and still is, but it appears that Moander's trapped essence is gathering power in Tsornyl and will eventually ascend once again to divinity if given enough time.
Indeed. See the 'Darkwatch' section of Volo's Guide to the Dalelands.
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| Asgetrion |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 22:36:16
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
What is actually wrong about the notion that they do get spell-power from the divine force of Nature istelf? Because the rules say that only deities can give divine spells? Other rules say that there are no cross racial clerics, yet, in Underdark we find a drow cleric of Shar.
Remember that you just need a new book and a new feat and suddenly "dead" deities or fiend lords can grant you spells, despite being "dead" or "not being divine". Who knows whether the next sourcebook on something Realmsish introduces a "Servant of Nature" feat? That is not to say that such worshippers have no patron deity, of course. Just as food for thought.
Hmmm. You have a point there, but I think that many sages have been reluctant to accept this "divine force of Nature" because it contradicts what Ed himself has told about divinity and divine forces in the Realms (i.e. that there is always a deity behind divine powers). That is why I never allowed "Ur-Priests" and such "tap into Cosmic Omnipresent Power" -type of Prestige Classes or feats in my campaigns.
I see no contradiction in using the Servant of the Fallen -feat, since we know from many sources that even "dead" gods sleep lightly (e.g. Moander, Auppenser and Myrkul just to name a few). Actually, their power (or essence) remains at least partially active while they might be slumbering or drifting in the Astral Plane.
I remember never seeing any reference to not allowing "cross-racial" deities in any of the Realms accessories. Do you remember where this information is from? |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 22:20:37
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
Another option is Lolth masquerading as Moander. Now wouldn't that brown the EV off when they find that out? ;)
This was actually canon before Power of Faerūn came out, and still is, but it appears that Moander's trapped essence is gathering power in Tsornyl and will eventually ascend once again to divinity if given enough time.
Still, this is a good point, and I think she is a very logical choice for EV's divine sponsor. However, I still prefer the Ol' Moldy to Lolth, since Moander has had a long history of corrupting the elves of Cormanthor. |
| Eremite |
Posted - 12 Apr 2007 : 15:35:24
Another option is Lolth masquerading as Moander. Now wouldn't that brown the EV off when they find that out? ;)
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| Zanan |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 09:24:40
What is actually wrong about the notion that they do get spell-power from the divine force of Nature istelf? Because the rules say that only deities can give divine spells? Other rules say that there are no cross racial clerics, yet, in Underdark we find a drow cleric of Shar.
Remember that you just need a new book and a new feat and suddenly "dead" deities or fiend lords can grant you spells, despite being "dead" or "not being divine". Who knows whether the next sourcebook on something Realmsish introduces a "Servant of Nature" feat? That is not to say that such worshippers have no patron deity, of course. Just as food for thought. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 05:11:19
My other happy thought about his reasoning is that he hates the seldarine and dark seldarine more than any other deity (except perhaps Lolth for the Seldarine). This means that not only do the Eldreth Veluuthra worship an evil deity, it also means that their ideas of supremacy and bigotry are being fueled (Gruumsh does hate a lot of folks). |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 05:05:03
I still love the thought of an Eldreth Veluuthra finding out that instead of "Nature" they are really getting their power from a grubby, one eyed orc god . . . its enough to make an elven racist want to fall on his sword.
While I still like the Ghaunadaur angle, this one is just fun to speculate on. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 11 Apr 2007 : 05:02:16
Okay,
Quite literally I was speaking to KEJR tonight about this exact quandry. Here's my take, and please take it with a grain of salt:
The Eldeth Veluuthra worship Gruumsh. Gruumsh HATES the Seldarine, and will use any method to get back at them. The next thought I have about that is that Gruumsh is a war deity primarily. This means that he is a tactician, and is very well versed in subterfuge AND sapping an enemy's strength over time.
Does this mean that he has changed his stance on direct, brutal conflict? Nope.
What it means is that he is much wiser and smarter than the other deities give him credit for, AND this guy makes sense (there are druids of Gruumsh).
Sorry to resurrect a thread, but I wanted to know other's thoughts on this subject. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 11:28:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
This option offers some significant gameplay. Not only would the PCs need to trace the EV's divine source to the remnant of Moander, but they would also have to contend with the lich and all the undead nasties he now has at his disposal -- undead who are somehow also tapping into the pool of divine power left in Moander's remains.
Perhaps they're racing against the clock. Rumor suggests that the lich is sacrificing mortals in some kind of ritual that sends their souls directly into Moander's remnant. The lich is using the EV to secure and capture humans so that they can be used in the ritual. The lich promises the EV the divine support of a "great power of decay" in their wars against humanity. Little do the EV realise that the lich is only using the EV to secure the souls necessary to conclude his fiendish plan. It is said that each soul grants the sliver a measure of sentience -- so it's only a matter a time before a "new" Moander is born!
This is exactly what I had planned for my campaign  |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 03:37:23
I agree, CrennenFaerieBane. It seems that the Eldreth Veluuthra seems to be playing a bigger role now and is under WotC's "spotlight". I would not be surprised to see a story about them in RoE, as there is a surge in the number of elves returning to Faerun, which would also strengthen the organization's numbers. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 22:16:41
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Jindael, I know what you mean. I liked the almost funny idea that these members of the Eldreth Veluuthra were just waiting around for Corellon to realize that killing humans and other sentients should be part of his portfolio, and that eventually Corellon would come to his senses and grant them spells. It made them seem even more delusional than they already were.
The main reason I wanted to reconcile the Champions of Ruin ideas is that if the Eldreth Veluuthra show up in sourcebooks, novels, etc in the future, the old Lords of Darkness version of the group is not likely to be what shows up. Its my decision to keep my game relatively close to cannon, and so I was just trying to mentally make the puzzle pieces fit.
Well, you never know... WotC may decide that the Ice-Lich isn't all that good of an idea and kill him off in a novel series or the such. The fact that they were Rehashed in CoR makes me think that they are to play some role in some Realms Event somewhere. Perhaps coinciding with Realms of Elves or something during the Time of Risen Elfkin which is fast approaching.
C-Fb |
