| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Krase |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 13:09:34
Hello everyone. I have heard that there are many infamous cults in the realms including the quite famous Cult of the Dragon. I wonder how many cults are there in the realms and is there any information about these cults? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 02:46:57
Master Sage,
I agree with you wholeheartedly about this issue. I think the deities are too fleshed out, and I think they are overly involved as well. Point in case, the Emerald Enclave. They do stuff that messes all sorts of alliances up between the alleged peaceful deity Eldath and Silvanus. There should be more mystery to the gods, archdevils, etc. Otherwise, there is this very routine approach to dealing with things that makes the powers that be, become more like desk workers, checking boxes, in my view anyhow.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Sage, here's what BoVD said about the Cult of Asmodeus:
Someone known as a devil-worshiper is almost always a follower of Asmodeus. The ruler of Hell commands a far larger body of followers than any other archdevils -probably more than all the others combined.
I guess I should have re-stated this here. In several other scrolls here at Candlekeep that have dealt with Asmodeus, I have said from time to time that I dislike specific parts of the BoVD, in the way that it has taken some of the mystery from the various arch devils and demon princes. It has done this by applying stats to them, thus limiting their powers, and by revealing greater details about their backgrounds and giving them scope with regard to PCs.
This Asmodeus quote is part of my problem. It creates a basis in 3e for Asmodeus to gradually loose some of his power and charm, which he possessed when DMs and PCs alike knew very little about him. For those DMs and PCs in 3e now, who adhere strongly to what is written in the source material, I feel that they will not appreciate these great beings the way that those DMs and PCs in 2e have.
quote:
The reason is that like you said, most mortals don't have much info on the archdevils. So when they do worship an archdevil, sometimes they don't even know the true identity of their patron. For example, Mephistopheles's cult is small because many mortals don't even realize that Mephistopheles and Asmodeus are two different beings.
Indeed, that is true.
Of course, I don't have much of a problem with other lower fiends of the nobility posing as greater demon princes or arch devils and pretending they are these great and power beings in an attempt to further their own power bases. That's just part of being a fiend after all...
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 02:34:24
Master Rupert,
Ahhh...perhaps my just posted question to you in this same scroll was all for not?
Do you happen to know if there is a definition accepted for the Realms as to what a cult it? I noticed you have a criteria for it being religious. Is that the criteria for it?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Does the eldreth veluuthra classify as a cult? All I know about them is that they are elves who really hate humans. More info would be appreciated.
They're described in a number of source, most recently Champions of Ruin. There's nothing religious about the organization -- they just take elven superiority a lot more seriously than other elves, and want to kill off all non-elves.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 02:32:13
Master Rupert,
Now here is a funny thing...do you think the Cult of the Dragon, considers The Harpers to be a cult? If they did, do you feel that there would be any legitimacy to that claim?
Here is what I am using as a point to my question with the definition of cult, from dictionary.com:
quote:
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
I think they're a cult. Then again, that would make a lot of groups/organizations in the Realms a cult, in all fairness.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
More info on the Cult of the Dragon can also be found in the 2E sourcebook of the same name. It also covers the life of Sammaster, who was indeed a Chosen of Mystra (for a while).
I'm not sure I'd consider those who follow Lurue and Nobanion to be cults -- both are living deities.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 04:07:39
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Sage, here's what BoVD said about the Cult of Asmodeus:
Someone known as a devil-worshiper is almost always a follower of Asmodeus. The ruler of Hell commands a far larger body of followers than any other archdevils -probably more than all the others combined.
I guess I should have re-stated this here. In several other scrolls here at Candlekeep that have dealt with Asmodeus, I have said from time to time that I dislike specific parts of the BoVD, in the way that it has taken some of the mystery from the various arch devils and demon princes. It has done this by applying stats to them, thus limiting their powers, and by revealing greater details about their backgrounds and giving them scope with regard to PCs.
This Asmodeus quote is part of my problem. It creates a basis in 3e for Asmodeus to gradually loose some of his power and charm, which he possessed when DMs and PCs alike knew very little about him. For those DMs and PCs in 3e now, who adhere strongly to what is written in the source material, I feel that they will not appreciate these great beings the way that those DMs and PCs in 2e have.
quote:
The reason is that like you said, most mortals don't have much info on the archdevils. So when they do worship an archdevil, sometimes they don't even know the true identity of their patron. For example, Mephistopheles's cult is small because many mortals don't even realize that Mephistopheles and Asmodeus are two different beings.
Indeed, that is true.
Of course, I don't have much of a problem with other lower fiends of the nobility posing as greater demon princes or arch devils and pretending they are these great and power beings in an attempt to further their own power bases. That's just part of being a fiend after all...
|
| Faraer |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 23:36:12
'Cult' has at least three pertinent senses here: a value-neutral term for a group of religious adherents; the cant sense of the word that refers to unorthodox or sinister religious groups, i.e. small ones without much political power; and the sword-and-sorcery sense based on the former in which the concept of a generally evil cult is accepted by both members and others. (Then there's a fourth major but non-pertinent sense of e.g. 'cult movies', which occasionally are movies that do have something that could be described as or likened to a cult, but more often are just good and/or popular movies the writer wants to marginalize. Look at what's on the BBC's Cult section of its website, for instance, and compare with programmes that aren't there but have equally insular and devoted followings, such as soap operas. It's comparable to the inane notion of 'genre fiction', for instance, in which some genres count as genres and others arbitrarily don't, which is like the idea that only other people have accents.)
Carry on.
Oh yeah, in Gary Gygax's World of Greyhawk, deviltry is one of the main forms of evil worship. One of the stories in Night Arrant, for instance, shows us the City of Greyhawk's cult of Asmodeus worship. It may well be that such goes on in the Realms more than the sources were able to show us; something work asking Ed. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 17:57:18
Sage, here's what BoVD said about the Cult of Asmodeus:
Someone known as a devil-worshiper is almost always a follower of Asmodeus. The ruler of Hell commands a far larger body of followers than any other archdevils -probably more than all the others combined.
The reason is that like you said, most mortals don't have much info on the archdevils. So when they do worship an archdevil, sometimes they don't even know the true identity of their patron. For example, Mephistopheles's cult is small because many mortals don't even realize that Mephistopheles and Asmodeus are two different beings. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 10:33:01
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
However, it is safe to say that Asmodeus has the largest and most powerful cult of all the demon/devil cults out there, based on the fact that he's the most powerful of devils and even his worshipers are all beings of great power (ex. aristocratic nobles, tyrants, etc).
I still don't see how mortals who have no specific knowledge of Asmodeus, can worship him?
Asmodeus is just not well-known enough among the many mortal populations to have garnered any type of major following. Many tomes have already established that aside from the other Lords, the Dark Eight, a few resident Powers, knowledge of the Lord of Darkness is considered a very rare commodity.
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| warlockco |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 08:13:01
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Sage, I see your reasoning and I agree with what you say.
However, it is safe to say that Asmodeus has the largest and most powerful cult of all the demon/devil cults out there, based on the fact that he's the most powerful of devils and even his worshipers are all beings of great power (ex. aristocratic nobles, tyrants, etc).
Aye, plus as far as the typical "Arch-Devil stereotype" goes, it was practically patterned after him. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 07:45:29
Sage, I see your reasoning and I agree with what you say.
However, it is safe to say that Asmodeus has the largest and most powerful cult of all the demon/devil cults out there, based on the fact that he's the most powerful of devils and even his worshipers are all beings of great power (ex. aristocratic nobles, tyrants, etc). |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 06:28:58
One more to the list of cults:
Beholder cults around the Lake of Steam and the Alimir mountains (Calimshan). Humans and others (enslaved or not) worshipping the beholders in these southern lands.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 03:26:40
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
But that's exactly the thing. A lot of mortals don't know much about Asmodeus, and many of the devil worshipers don't even know that they are giving tributes and sarcifices to the Lord of Nine Hells. Then there's also the many alias that the Ruler of Nessus uses that allows him to manipulate mortals into worshipping him.
The attentions and ambitions of the Lord of Darkness should be something that is not easily understood -- by mortals or gods. Remember that he (or rather It) is something greater than the other Lords combined. He maintains the facade that he is just like the rest of them... an Arch Devil because it serves whatever purpose he currently has in his mind. Asmodeus does not have an interest in any type of trivial matters, like mortal worship for example. The Lord of the Ninth has been around for a significantly long time. It is fair to say that he has grown beyond such concerns.
quote:
As for Bel, I remember reading in BoVD that he doesn't even have a cult because he spends so much time in the Blood War.
That is true, but it seems convincingly hard to believe that given the expansive mortal exposure to Avernus. Mortals travellers across thousands of years have come to Avernus. These travellers are bound to hear stories of the great power and majesty of the Lord of the First, and perhaps worship him from afar.
Additionally, mortals have their roles in the Blood War. It's likely that Bel has had contact with many powerful mortals on important worlds of battle in order to ensure a steady supply of slaves and/or troops. These powerful individuals could seize on their relationship with Bel and start their own cults dedicated to the Lord of the First.
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| DDH_101 |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 22:56:04
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Hmm... but Asmodeus's cult is supposedly the largest and most powerful of all the demon and devil cults out there.
I don't see that myself.
The Lord of Darkness is largely an unknown element, especially for mortals. I mean, there may be one or two cults here and there on some Prime worlds that worship the Lord of All Hells... or rather the notion of a great power among the other Lords, but they probably wouldn't know or understand a great deal about the arch devil himself. If anything, I'd say that the most popular arch devil cults would be based around Bel, who has the most contact and relation with other Material worlds, thanks largely to his position as First Lord of Avernus.
But that's exactly the thing. A lot of mortals don't know much about Asmodeus, and many of the devil worshipers don't even know that they are giving tributes and sarcifices to the Lord of Nine Hells. Then there's also the many alias that the Ruler of Nessus uses that allows him to manipulate mortals into worshipping him.
As for Bel, I remember reading in BoVD that he doesn't even have a cult because he spends so much time in the Blood War. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 08:03:41
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Also, there are cults to all the devil rulers of the Nine Hells that exist,...
Indeed.
Although, I wouldn't think that they would be as popular or as large as some of the demon-worshipping cults. Not all cultists may like the idea of signing over their souls to their fiendish associates.
Not all devil worshipers sell their souls to them, do they?
Hmm... but Asmodeus's cult is supposedly the largest and most powerful of all the demon and devil cults out there.
Maybe in worlds other than the realms.
Also that was information from back in 1E or 2E also, so maybe things have changed since then? |
| khorne |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 07:03:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Does the eldreth veluuthra classify as a cult? All I know about them is that they are elves who really hate humans. More info would be appreciated.
They're described in a number of source, most recently Champions of Ruin. There's nothing religious about the organization -- they just take elven superiority a lot more seriously than other elves, and want to kill off all non-elves.
All non-elves? not just humans? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 06:47:35
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Not all devil worshipers sell their souls to them, do they?
Possibly. But then, most powerful devils are never going to assist any mortal without securing something for themselves in return for that assistance -- whether it is a soul or not and whether the mortal truly realises what he or she is exchanging for that assistance, I suppose could be debated. In the end though, it'll end up costly for the mortal, with the devil being the "real" winner of such agreements.
quote:
Hmm... but Asmodeus's cult is supposedly the largest and most powerful of all the demon and devil cults out there.
I don't see that myself.
The Lord of Darkness is largely an unknown element, especially for mortals. I mean, there may be one or two cults here and there on some Prime worlds that worship the Lord of All Hells... or rather the notion of a great power among the other Lords, but they probably wouldn't know or understand a great deal about the arch devil himself. If anything, I'd say that the most popular arch devil cults would be based around Bel, who has the most contact and relation with other Material worlds, thanks largely to his position as First Lord of Avernus.
|
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 06:27:31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Also, there are cults to all the devil rulers of the Nine Hells that exist,...
Indeed.
Although, I wouldn't think that they would be as popular or as large as some of the demon-worshipping cults. Not all cultists may like the idea of signing over their souls to their fiendish associates.
Not all devil worshipers sell their souls to them, do they?
Hmm... but Asmodeus's cult is supposedly the largest and most powerful of all the demon and devil cults out there. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 05:20:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He's also rather popular with at least one gent on the WotC forums... 
Poor Nightfall, he always gets some slack for being obessed.
To keep this on topic, F&A says Moander's clergy are a cult. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 04:56:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As well as Orcus, who has always been rather popular among the demon-worshipping cultists on Faerun.
He's also rather popular with at least one gent on the WotC forums... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 03:05:27
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Also, there are cults to all the devil rulers of the Nine Hells that exist,...
Indeed.
Although, I wouldn't think that they would be as popular or as large as some of the demon-worshipping cults. Not all cultists may like the idea of signing over their souls to their fiendish associates.
quote:
...and also a few cults that worship powerful demons like Demogorgon. However, these ones are really open and you can change them to fit the Realms.
As well as Orcus, who has always been rather popular among the demon-worshipping cultists on Faerun.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 23:21:07
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Does the eldreth veluuthra classify as a cult? All I know about them is that they are elves who really hate humans. More info would be appreciated.
They're described in a number of source, most recently Champions of Ruin. There's nothing religious about the organization -- they just take elven superiority a lot more seriously than other elves, and want to kill off all non-elves. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 22:46:27
Also, there are cults to all the devil rulers of the Nine Hells that exist, and also a few cults that worship powerful demons like Demogorgon. However, these ones are really open and you can change them to fit the Realms. |
| khorne |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 20:48:51
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Now the Cult of Tiamat, THE Dragon, now there's a proper dragon worshipping cult for ya.
In my opinion Bahamut, not Tiamat, is THE dragon.
Does the eldreth veluuthra classify as a cult? All I know about them is that they are elves who really hate humans. More info would be appreciated. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 17:18:19
More info on the Cult of the Dragon can also be found in the 2E sourcebook of the same name. It also covers the life of Sammaster, who was indeed a Chosen of Mystra (for a while).
I'm not sure I'd consider those who follow Lurue and Nobanion to be cults -- both are living deities. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 15:10:57
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Cloak and Dagger and Lords of Darkness are two tomes that should provide you with a basic grounding on some of the more aggressive and major cults in Faerun.
I would also love to see more Realmslore about minor and "eccentric" cults... for example, cultists worshipping monsters/magic items (such as Elrem´s cult or the Bright Sword)
Then there are also the "aspect cults" (such as different cults of Bane, or Lathander) |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 14:59:29
Any religious group can, technically, be called a cult ... which stems from a Latin root meaning to worship. The worship of Lathander is thus a cult, as is the worship of any god or king or hero or relic or demon.
I'm not so sure I would include the Cult of the Dragon as a religious or semi-religious cult though, as their goal seems to be far less the adoration and worship of dragonkind and far more the subversion of dragonkind ... using lichdom and their special "dragon rings" as a means to control dragons. The old Cult of the Dragon source book provides an excellent example of how they con dragons into becoming liches, and then via the magic of the rings force them to take actions that the wyrm in question would rather not.
Sammaster was misled by Algashon from the very beginning. One must believe that Al even caused Sammmaster to err in his translation of Maglas' prophecy regarding the rulership of wyrmkind; which spoke only of dragons (not dead dragons) ruling the world entire. Perhaps he was inspired by Bane himself? Furthermore, it was Algashon who destroyed the Drakewings faction of the CotD, and more or less shaped the mold of the CotD as we know it today, ie. users and manipulators of wyrmkind. Algashon must die!!!!! Again?!?
Now the Cult of Tiamat, THE Dragon, now there's a proper dragon worshipping cult for ya.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 14:20:06
Cloak and Dagger and Lords of Darkness are two tomes that should provide you with a basic grounding on some of the more aggressive and major cults in Faerun.
|
| silvermage |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 13:27:52
Well given the list of the cults presented by Shadovar, well surely there are good and bad cults, I wonder which cult is bad and which is good. Any ideas? |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 13:23:14
As I promised, here are some information:
Cult of the dragon:This semireligious organization was founded by Sammaster, a powerful wizard favored by the gods with great power, in a manner similar to (reportedly) Elminster and Khelben Arunsun. In Sammaster's case, however, the additional power brought delusions of godhood and madness, and he came to believe that "dead dragons shall rule the world entirely" and began to work toward that goal. While Sammaster has died, risen as a lich, and fallen again, his cult lives on, and continues to threaten the Heartlands.
The Cult of the Dragon venerates dragons in general, evil dragons in particular, and specifically dead evil dragons, reanimated as powerful and fell dracoliches. The Cult acts as an information network for its draconian "masters," brings gems and riches as offerings, and encourages evil dragons to become dracoliches. Once the undead dragons attained world domination, the cult followers believed the undead dragons will grant them dominion over the rest of the "lesser races"
The Cult of the Dragon is active throughout the Realms but is specifically powerful in the Cold Lands and the North, where dragons are particularly populous (if not popular). Cult member activities include gathering information on particularly rich caravans to be raided, stealing unique items to be offered to their master, and leading raids against their enemies, who in their minds are all those who might oppose the rulership of the dragons.
Well, I will try to dig up more information on the rest of the cults. |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 13:21:39
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Of course, there are also cults of the dead gods such as Bane, if I am not wrong. I will try to find more information and reply later.
Bane is back, he came back in 1372. But you are correct, there are cults to dead gods such as Myrkul and Bhaal. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 13:12:24
Greetings to you, Krase. Well concerning the cults in the realms, well there are many in existence. Here are some of the names:
Beast Cults:The Blue Bear: Demonic cult
The Bright Sword: A Flying Sword
Cult of the Singing Skull: A Floating Talking Skull
The Great Wise Worm: A great DragonLike creature
Kazgoroth: The Beast of the Moonshae Isles
Lurue: Unicorns, Talking Animals & Intelligent Monsters
Nobanion: The Lion God and Guardian of the Wilds
Red Tiger: Hunters in the Coldwood
Tree Ghost: Forest Spirit of the High Forest
Cult of The Dragon: A Secret Society type Cult
Of course, there are also cults of the dead gods such as Bane, if I am not wrong. I will try to find more information and reply later.
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