| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Valondil the Ranger |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 19:21:31
Who would win in a fight to the death between the two assassins? No allies counted in. No magic (unless it is an enchanted weapon, such as Entreri's dagger). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sermon Bath |
Posted - 13 Aug 2009 : 18:57:20
Artemis would win because Cale is bald and likes girls |
| Stout Heart |
Posted - 05 May 2009 : 15:46:42
Dont get me wrong Cale is a damn fine fighter but I can even picture a scenario where he would win. |
| Stingerslick |
Posted - 02 May 2009 : 05:48:06
My apologies Fire i see what you mean now hehe |
| BEAST |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 07:44:32
Regarding the handling of Wulfgar's return and RAS's take on it, check out this <2004 "WOTmania" interview>:
quote:
I was never really sure whether Wulfgar had died in “The Legacy,” or whether he had just gone away to the Abyss and would return. I always leaned toward the “leave him dead” side of the argument, and it was nothing short of a war between me and TSR that brought me to the other side. I was leaving TSR after “Passage to Dawn.” My contract was up and I had no intention of re-signing after some particularly contentious moments regarding the number of books, the speed with which I would need to write them, and my creative control of the series. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that if I left, they’d find someone else to write Drizzt. Well, there was nothing I could do about that, but I was damned well certain that I wasn’t going to give another writer the hook of bringing back Wulfgar, which I knew TSR wanted. That would have guaranteed a New York Times Bestseller; I wasn’t going to hand that over.
So I brought him back, and was ambivalent about it, but not really too concerned. I was certain that “Passage to Dawn” would be the last Drizzt book of mine, after all.
Then, surprise, Wizards of the Coast bought out TSR and coaxed me back into the fold. So I found myself having to follow the course of Wulfgar’s emotional resurrection. I’ve come to appreciate him again by watching that journey; he’s come full circle and is stronger than ever. (excerpted)
Wulf's post-Abyss characterization has probably been handled in the most realistic fashion of any of the "Companions" characters, IMO.
There used to be an excellent in-depth article on this on the old "Atlas of Adventure" website, but, sadly, it's been shut down.
I can empathize with those regretting the superhero-esque treatment of the Companions of the Hall in RAS's (especially his earlier) books. But I've never taken any of the books all that seriously. They're meant as fun idle entertainment--not deep intellectual treatises. As Firestorm said, RAS serves a certain flavor of "tea", and a lot of (but certainly not all) people like to drink it.
I haven't read that many Cale books yet, but I got the impression that he wasn't that particularly adept at swordfighting before the onset of his big changes. Sure, he could fight, but there was an air of humility there, and I perceived it to be the result of knowing and admitting his (then) limitations. It's actually a big part of why he's interesting to read: you are lead to believe that he might actually make a mistake at any time, what with all the growling and screaming and exploding and oozing going on around him and what-not.
But it sounds like Cale could take Artemis pretty easily, now. RAS deliberately kept the magic levels of Drizzt and Entreri (or rather, of their weaps) fairly even, so their battles could hinge upon fighting skill alone. But Cale appears to destroy that balance completely... |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 03:53:29
quote:
Originally posted by Stingerslick
Artemis any day, his fighting skill is impressive, look back to realms of infamy on how he even got into the Basadoni rogue guild, his fight with the older rogue where he slit his juggler with a flat sharp stone.
And Drizzt has had many close numerous calls not sure why you would refer to him as god like, He has been captured before ( When Artemis first starts hanging out with Jarlaxle in Mezoberannen, he in fact did run away form Obould in their first fight encounter and could not be effective until he got cutter to cut through oboulds armor.
Same with artemis, drizzt usually kicks the snot out of him, the only time he thinks he won thanks to jarlaxle was when the psyonic helped him.
I think there is a bit of a misconception on my exact meaning, but in general, I find their characters to be too perfect. Much like, say, Richard Cypher in SOT. I hate Characters who just seem to come out smelling like roses from any situation(Or near enough), able to immediately size up any situation and prepare the battlefield to win. In Salvatore's writings, They are beyond the abilities of normal heroes/Villains, and when they are painted into the grand scheme of things in this shared world fantasy, people inevitably always say "OMG, Drizzt/Artemis is unbeatable one on one except by each other" when comparing heroes/villains.
There will be book spoilers below
Individual scenarios like Drizzt outskilling Obould, but needing a weapon able to pierce his armor only further this notion. Granted Salvatore has gotten better over time at not making them seem so unbeatable.
There is nothing wrong with it if that is your cup of tea. It is just that I prefer, well, a degree realism in characters. Probably why I like the song of ice and fire so much.
I was very happy when Drizzt had problems fighting Tosun because of Khazidhea, and I was even more happy when Artemis was pitted against an Epic level Character from the bloodstone lands and got summarily handled in single combat to the point that he had to run and use his assassin skills instead of straight up combat skills.
There is nothing wrong with it if that is your cup of tea. It is just that I prefer, well, a degree realism in characters. Probably why I like the song of ice and fire so much.
The best swordsman might be the best swordsman, but eventually, he will slip and get unlucky. Nobody is perfectly balanced all the time. In a true fight, the difference could be an invisible wet patch of grass and whoever accidentally steps on it first. Sadly, I find his characters would probably notice it and somehow use it to their advantage(Which I find ridiculous when done every single fight)
To further elaborate on things I do not like. Drizzt, by happenstance, picks up the exact weapon he needs to banish Errtu in the first book, A giant icicle just happens to be hanging over the dragons head within range for him to knock it down and impale him. Drizzt's ability to resist drow poison by simply giving in to his animalistic hunter nature(THAT is lame. I could see it if he somehow fought off falling asleep, but he does not even suffer any agility penalties), etc
Too many times have I read "and miraculously landed perfectly balanced as only he can do just in time to intercept the blow(Or similar talk)"
That sort of thing gets old.
Bringing Wulfgar back from the dead just about drove me crazy, and the fact that Drizzt was able to stand toe to toe with Obould at all drives me crazy(Since Obould is listed as a Demigod Exarch, and even the weakest demigod could stop any single non chosen mortal with little effort). I simply assume in Salvatore's version of the world that Obould is not an exarch, but merely a high level orc chosen of Obould.
Regarding Artemis getting into the Basadoni guild. Sure, its impressive, but that does not immediately equate to him being better. Everyone had their own experiences and training.
Cale was trained from a young age as a Night mask assassin, and Riven was a high level Zhentarim operative/assassin, who was from Calimshan as a slave and was trained with weapons until he was roughly equal to Entreri. The conversation really should have been about him and Entreri anyways, given how Riven is utterly confident he could take Cale and Fleet in a straight up fight 2 vs 1, and how Cale always admitted Riven was better with weapons.
One thing that Truly bugged me in a Salvatore book was, well, just how inept he made the night masks look when they faced off against Cadderly/Danica/the dwarves. One of the most feared assassin guilds in all the realms sending 20 top assassins to a task because of the expensive fees paid and they get humiliated........Poorly handled, and made a powerful guild look weak. |
| Stingerslick |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 18:44:28
Artemis any day, his fighting skill is impressive, look back to realms of infamy on how he even got into the Basadoni rogue guild, his fight with the older rogue where he slit his juggler with a flat sharp stone.
And Drizzt has had many close numerous calls not sure why you would refer to him as god like, He has been captured before ( When Artemis first starts hanging out with Jarlaxle in Mezoberannen, he in fact did run away form Obould in their first fight encounter and could not be effective until he got cutter to cut through oboulds armor.
Same with artemis, drizzt usually kicks the snot out of him, the only time he thinks he won thanks to jarlaxle was when the psyonic helped him. |
| swifty |
Posted - 20 Apr 2009 : 14:33:35
wulfgar is the bobby ewing of the realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Apr 2009 : 02:32:20
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
if that was the case i stand corrected.it dosent alter the fact it was a cop out.to kill a character off and bring him back a few years later is stupid.i know its fantasy but i still want some realism.
I think it depends on the how and why, myself... For example, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle killed off his most famous character -- Sherlock Holmes. Years later, in part due to the fans wanting Holmes back, Doyle brought him back. And the way he did it was to take advantage of a now-common literary device: if there's no body, then death isn't guaranteed. |
| swifty |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 23:47:45
if that was the case i stand corrected.it dosent alter the fact it was a cop out.to kill a character off and bring him back a few years later is stupid.i know its fantasy but i still want some realism. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 23:13:43
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
its not like the fans even wanted wulfgar back.they wanted to see zak.
Incorrect. There was apparently a huge uproar about Wulfgar's death, and this uproar caused TSR/WotC (whichever was around then) to mandate his return. At least, this is the story I've heard more than once. |
| swifty |
Posted - 18 Apr 2009 : 16:08:04
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by darkvarg
I think the better question is who would win between Entreri and Riven (Before Riven became a demi-god) . Riven was always a more superior bladesman than Cale, Cale admitted as much in "The Halls of Stormweather" Cale just gained more divine power thus he became more powerful. Although i think a battle between Entreri and Riven would be epic i think Entreri would find a way to take advantage of
Riven's missing eye and eventually win.
This is what I was thinking too. Riven is the dual Saber master assassin who always bested Cale in single combat until Cale became a priest.
In either case, it is completely different worlds to begin with. Salvatore writes his main characters in as being almost godlike and unrealistically unbeatably perfect, while Kemp writes realistic darker novels with Realistic characters.
The truth of the matter is. Cale before becoming a priest would not have much of a chance vs Artemis. Cale after becoming the Shade Chosen of mask would have access to divine magic and would wipe the floor with Entreri, let alone his abilities as a Shade to shadowwalk infinite amount of times, create Shadow doubles, increase his size and strength and speed(He did kill a death Slaadi with his bare hands). Weaveshear is an even more powerful magic absorbing/reflecting item than the Gauntlet(A weapon powerful enough that the lord of the eighth hell was interested in acquiring it)
Riven after becoming a chosen would have his powers, including the black speech, which would cripple Entreri unless he was prepared for it, as well as his shadowpowered blades(Which would feel like a warhammer to Entreri when he parried them). Even if he was, Riven is a comparable blademaster. His biggest disadvantage in combat would be lack of depth perception due to his missing eye.
I am absolutely sure the poster was not inferring after Cale and Riven became demigods at the end of Shadowrealm.
i must sdmit im with firestorm on this one.although i dont believe its all salvatores fault.wasnt it wotc who forced him to bring wulfgar back.a complete cop out and the series lost a lot of credibility after that.its not like the fans even wanted wulfgar back.they wanted to see zak. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 18 Apr 2009 : 07:25:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
In either case, it is completely different worlds to begin with. Salvatore writes his main characters in as being almost godlike and unrealistically unbeatably perfect, while Kemp writes realistic darker novels with Realistic characters.
Ummm... What??
I realize that there's Drizzt-haters out there and you might not like RAS' writing, but to make such a claim is just wrong.
Let's remember whose characters are *ACTUAL* demi-gods and whose characters have not 'leveled' in the last twenty years. If Drizzt and company's battles seem lopsided, it's usually because of a) tactics and b) they are better than the grunts sent against them. Drizzt, one on one with an equal opponent, is just as likely to lose as win (Artemis, Athrogate, Obould, etc.).
I am a huge fan of Salvatore's writing and I can assure you I meant every word of what I said.
In a real fight, true skill could lose from something as simple as an unlucky slip on wet grass, or an invisible enemy sneaking up behind you magically concealed while you were otherwise engaged. I feel Salvatore often makes his characters seem utterly perfect in technique and skill, which nobody ever is, like nobody else would ever have a chance against them. Whereas Kemp's character's and depictions seem much more realistic(In terms of fighting)
There are a few instances where I felt Salvatore was being more realistic. Such as when Roddy uses Drizzt's feelings against him and pins him down using superior size(guen saves the day), or when Entreri slips upon a muddy depression in the sewers, but those are few and far between. But for the most part, Drizzt/Entreri are always portrayed as unbeatable warriors who never slip or make a mistake.
|
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 17:32:36
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
In either case, it is completely different worlds to begin with. Salvatore writes his main characters in as being almost godlike and unrealistically unbeatably perfect, while Kemp writes realistic darker novels with Realistic characters.
Ummm... What??
I realize that there's Drizzt-haters out there and you might not like RAS' writing, but to make such a claim is just wrong.
Let's remember whose characters are *ACTUAL* demi-gods and whose characters have not 'leveled' in the last twenty years. If Drizzt and company's battles seem lopsided, it's usually because of a) tactics and b) they are better than the grunts sent against them. Drizzt, one on one with an equal opponent, is just as likely to lose as win (Artemis, Athrogate, Obould, etc.). |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 17:15:02
quote:
Originally posted by darkvarg
I think the better question is who would win between Entreri and Riven (Before Riven became a demi-god) . Riven was always a more superior bladesman than Cale, Cale admitted as much in "The Halls of Stormweather" Cale just gained more divine power thus he became more powerful. Although i think a battle between Entreri and Riven would be epic i think Entreri would find a way to take advantage of
Riven's missing eye and eventually win.
This is what I was thinking too. Riven is the dual Saber master assassin who always bested Cale in single combat until Cale became a priest.
In either case, it is completely different worlds to begin with. Salvatore writes his main characters in as being almost godlike and unrealistically unbeatably perfect, while Kemp writes realistic darker novels with Realistic characters.
The truth of the matter is. Cale before becoming a priest would not have much of a chance vs Artemis. Cale after becoming the Shade Chosen of mask would have access to divine magic and would wipe the floor with Entreri, let alone his abilities as a Shade to shadowwalk infinite amount of times, create Shadow doubles, increase his size and strength and speed(He did kill a death Slaadi with his bare hands). Weaveshear is an even more powerful magic absorbing/reflecting item than the Gauntlet(A weapon powerful enough that the lord of the eighth hell was interested in acquiring it)
Riven after becoming a chosen would have his powers, including the black speech, which would cripple Entreri unless he was prepared for it, as well as his shadowpowered blades(Which would feel like a warhammer to Entreri when he parried them). Even if he was, Riven is a comparable blademaster. His biggest disadvantage in combat would be lack of depth perception due to his missing eye.
I am absolutely sure the poster was not inferring after Cale and Riven became demigods at the end of Shadowrealm. |
| BARDOBARBAROS |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 00:01:16
They would kill each other |
| Dantrag |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 19:48:01
Depends on if Cale has his shade ability
|
| Genis |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 06:31:42
Holy shat, I was reading this and didn't realize until the end, like many topics brought back from the dead, that this was started in like 04/05, I haven't even been on this site that long and i've been a while. It's like delving into the past :D |
| Drizztsmanchild |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 05:42:07
Well before his dealings with the Shade in a conversation with Dwhavel in "the Servant of the Shard" He himself was musing about his aging saying something like"What i lose in skill I'm gaining in intellect and wits" or something similar. And I forget where i saw that he (or someone )was musing that while Artemis was edging past his prime that Drizzt had barely reached his (I'm positive that it was Jarlaxle in "The Silent Blade" before their battle(Atremis andDrizzt) ).
But after his Shade confrontation and before Idalia's flute came into play he defininately seem to have gained more of his prime fighting skill and prob still has that . But at the end of "The road of the patriarch" it seemed that he wanted to just go back to Calimport and live his life without layers upon layers of the deception he was dealing with. And IMO not wanting to fight dulls your edge as surely as aging does. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 19:45:28
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Do we know for a fact what the exact effects of absorbing the "shadowstuff" are? I don't recall that they were ever actually stated.
All we've been told directly is that his skin has started turning an ashy gray and that his Netherese sword now digs him.
We haven't been reminded of how old and slow he supposedly is in several books; if anything, he seems to be fighting as well as ever. So it's possible the aging process has been slowed. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 15:59:52
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Don't forgetthat Artemis used his dagger on a Shade, thus prolonging his life.
Do we know for a fact what the exact effects of absorbing the "shadowstuff" are? I don't recall that they were ever actually stated. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 13:53:15
Finally! Proof that Drizzt is more über than both, so he's ultra-über...
Drizzt's Magic Card
(sometimes, April is fun) |
| Drakul |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 11:25:37
Don't forgetthat Artemis used his dagger on a Shade, thus prolonging his life. |
| Drizztsmanchild |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 04:17:02
Ah. But when does the battle taking place? When both are in their prime? Artemis would prob win hands down. And lets not forget that even though Cale has Riven as an ally that Entreri has Bragen D'earthe and Jarlaxle to.
But if the battle takes place after The Road of the Patriarch, then all bets are off because it seemed to me that Entreri may have lost a little bit of his will to fight plus is losing an edge or 2 as he's getting older. |
| Drakul |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 22:53:31
Artemis gets my vote. |
| swifty |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 08:29:04
cales stats pre shade were pretty feeble compared to entreris fighting wise. |
| scererar |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 02:40:50
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
We still don't know the full effects of Entreri's pseudo Shade-ism do we?
not yet. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Mar 2009 : 13:22:57
quote:
Originally posted by darkvarg
I think the better question is who would win between Entreri and Riven (Before Riven became a demi-god) .
Eh, are you sure? Especially since "X vs. Y" topics are discouraged here... |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 22:35:59
I feel like Riven is just so much more careful than Entreri. He wouldn't get caught up in a battle with someone just to see who was better.
Course, I REALLY hope that Entreri's new-found pseudo-Shade-ism will allow him to have survived the Spellplague...I hope we get to see him in 5th ed... |
| darkvarg |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 17:50:57
I think the better question is who would win between Entreri and Riven (Before Riven became a demi-god) . Riven was always a more superior bladesman than Cale, Cale admitted as much in "The Halls of Stormweather" Cale just gained more divine power thus he became more powerful. Although i think a battle between Entreri and Riven would be epic i think Entreri would find a way to take advantage of
Riven's missing eye and eventually win. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 16 Mar 2009 : 06:37:14
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Although I never thought much about it, I suppose the enthusiasm for this emotionally distanced 'cool' is mainly what I find distasteful about some of the fandom for these characters.
Distasteful? So sorry to disappoint. We will try ever so much harder in the future.
 |
|
|
