| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| richtinIII |
Posted - 14 Sep 2004 : 20:38:49
my brother was telling me that "MYTH" Drannor is a title. is that true? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 17:35:03
Seeker richtinIII,
The comprehensive list:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mythal
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by richtinIII
What does Mythal mean?
|
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 20:54:12
quote:
Originally posted by ChewyGumbal
If the elven cities that have mythals all have "myth" infromt of their name, why isn't Evereska, Myth Evereska besides sounding bad?
Does ne1 know wat Evereskas mythal did b4 the phearim attacked?
One simple answer/excuse could be that it's not a hard and fast rule and if you want to keep the existence of your mythal secret from outsiders (so's they don't know all your defenses), you don't rename the city when the mythal goes up.
Steven Schend
Who's put up a mythal or two in the past |
| ChewyGumbal |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 18:04:51
If the elven cities that have mythals all have "myth" infromt of their name, why isn't Evereska, Myth Evereska besides sounding bad?
Does ne1 know wat Evereskas mythal did b4 the phearim attacked? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 09:01:40
 Excellent answer! I can see a halfling wearing a hat like that, too! |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 08:19:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Thanks for the reminder here. I don't recall there being any other lore or mention of Drannor before or since the EiMD novel. Too bad, really, as I'm seeing his relationship with a dwarven woman being a fantasy medieval version of THE HONEYMOONERS in reverse. 
SES
Who knows that anything his brain can conjure pales compared to what rattles loose from Ed's graying pate...
So what manner of person would Norton be, in this version of the Honeymooners? 
Halfling, without a doubt, given the size of medieval sewers; besides, they're the only race that can make that battered fedora look work on them. 
Steven
Post no double-entendres here |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Sep 2004 : 20:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Thanks for the reminder here. I don't recall there being any other lore or mention of Drannor before or since the EiMD novel. Too bad, really, as I'm seeing his relationship with a dwarven woman being a fantasy medieval version of THE HONEYMOONERS in reverse.
SES
Who knows that anything his brain can conjure pales compared to what rattles loose from Ed's graying pate...
So what manner of person would Norton be, in this version of the Honeymooners? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 23 Sep 2004 : 17:57:19
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
after an hour of joyful rereading "elminster in myth drannor", i found the sentence that i knew existed somewhere within this novel:
EiMD, page 353:
Henceforth, though our realm shall remain Cormanthor, this city shall be known as Myth Drannor, in honor of the Mythal Mythantar shall craft for us, and for Drannor, the first elf of Cormanthor known to have married a dwarven lass, long ago though that may be."
i concluded the following from that quote:
- the word "mythal" does not derive from Mythantar. if it would, mythantar would have named the spell after himself, something i did not read anywhere (or between the lines). imo it is more logical that way, because else there would have been a different name for mythals before mythantar.
- the origin of the "drannor"- part. do we know more of that elf? apart from EiMD i“ve never heard of him.
Thanks for the reminder here. I don't recall there being any other lore or mention of Drannor before or since the EiMD novel. Too bad, really, as I'm seeing his relationship with a dwarven woman being a fantasy medieval version of THE HONEYMOONERS in reverse.
SES
Who knows that anything his brain can conjure pales compared to what rattles loose from Ed's graying pate... |
| tauster |
Posted - 22 Sep 2004 : 21:06:06
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Hymn
An interesting note to add is that the reason it is called a Mythal is because of it's original creator, High mage Mythanthor who gave his life to create the first Mythal, the one surrounding Myth Drannor. If you want to read more about the creation of mythals etc, I recommend reading Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves.
Actually, that's only partially correct. Mythanthor is the wizard responsible for Myth Drannor's mythal, and he is the original creator of a wizardly mythal (at least in elven style; the Shoon managed a few near-mythals during their rise and reign). Mythanthor was not a High Mage when he created his spell and he was prevented from ever touching High Magic due to magical backlash.
[...]
To the elves, mythals were tied to places and to natural energies as well as mystical energies, thus the term Mythal. When standing alone, "myth" as a title hints that the area has a mythal, while its meaning shifts; many elven cities have singular names, but when they have titles ala Myth Drannor, the title underscores its translation as "place set apart from others."
Drannor is an odd word in Elvish but very loosely translates to Common as "No hatred, nothing but love/passion/true essence." Thus, Myth Drannor becomes "The Place Apart for No Hatreds," in some sense. Too bad it didn't fulfill that promise. 
Then again, this is all unofficial and conjecture, as I've no official standing to make these comments. They're just ideas and such from my notes and thinking on these things. Take them for what they're worth.
Steven
Who'll note that names don't always fall in line with his Elvish notes, since it takes some linguistic gymnastics to translate Mythanthor's own name as "One set apart to enrich the forest"
PS: Note that Mythanthor was named by Ed, this linguistic work post dates the character's creation, and if forced to, I'd conjure up a rationale that this name was one he took on after blasted by backlash and removed from the High Wizards' ranks; therefore, what his name and house was before is unknown, though to elves irrelevant.
after an hour of joyful rereading "elminster in myth drannor", i found the sentence that i knew existed somewhere within this novel:
EiMD, page 353:
Henceforth, though our realm shall remain Cormanthor, this city shall be known as Myth Drannor, in honor of the Mythal Mythantar shall craft for us, and for Drannor, the first elf of Cormanthor known to have married a dwarven lass, long ago though that may be."
i concluded the following from that quote:
- the word "mythal" does not derive from Mythantar. if it would, mythantar would have named the spell after himself, something i did not read anywhere (or between the lines). imo it is more logical that way, because else there would have been a different name for mythals before mythantar.
- the origin of the "drannor"- part. do we know more of that elf? apart from EiMD i“ve never heard of him. |
| richtinIII |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 19:31:49
WWOOOOWWWWW!
thats soooo cool.that just blows my mind away!thanx for that information |
| Faraer |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 15:24:48
Hey Steven,
What was put up online (here) seems to be a mixture of your glossary with various Tolkien elements. Could you maybe email me (or candlekeep.com) the original? (I forget the way the last discussion of this went.) |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 15:04:13
quote:
Originally posted by richtinIII
Steven
were did you get all that information on the languages of elves??
Thought this was answered above....I made it up. No really.
All I did was look at previously used Elvish words from various products and break them down into correlations with other words and/or definitions. Where authors gave a colorful name (I.E. Felicity or Foxfire) to an elf, I came up with a translation into Elvish that honored that other name but had a common base with other more standard names. My rough glossary (someone posted it on the web somewhere, I'm sure) is little more than prefixes and suffixes and words with full definitions, and I jigsaw puzzle together elvish words when I need them.
Steven |
| richtinIII |
Posted - 21 Sep 2004 : 04:15:44
Steven
were did you get all that information on the languages of elves?? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 20 Sep 2004 : 20:55:24
quote:
Originally posted by richtinIII
are mythals a consept still used in present day FR AD&D 2nd ed.?
I don't see why not since Cormanthyr:Empire of the Elves is where Mythals were detailed for 2e, well besides the info that is in the Ruins of Myth Drannor box set that is. :) |
| richtinIII |
Posted - 20 Sep 2004 : 19:04:24
are mythals a consept still used in present day FR AD&D 2nd ed.? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 20 Sep 2004 : 00:50:08
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just to set the record straight, Steven hasn't swiped anyone else's attempts to create an elvish language - hence he doesn't have any "sources" for his translations (other than his own noggin). Ed may have provided a few elvish words here and there but the elvish you see in "Cormanthyr" and "Fall of Myth Drannor" is Steven's work. I'm wondering if he'll ever get a gig as a freelancer on upcoming FR products - especially considering the stated policy of having at least one freelancer and one staff writer on every FR product ... I know I'd be over the moon to see the name "Steven E Schend" on another FR product.
-- George Krashos
Thanks, George, for the kind words (and the explanation) above.
When I can ever afford to visit Austrailia, I'm already owing you a few pints lined up on the rail.
Steven
|
| Hymn |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 14:04:14
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Rich Baker just posted this on the "other" FR Boards:
"Most of the mythal effects in Forsaken House I made up for the story. As far as when or if you'll see some of those rules, Ancient Empires includes a mythal-building system that marries up epic level rules with some of the 2nd edition capabilities of mythals."
I told you "Ancient Empires" was going to be good.
-- George Krashos
I want it now, I want it now.  At last some useful crunch |
| rowwhenn |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 13:31:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing even vaguely mythal-like on any other game world published by WotC.
You're right , that s why i said " the modification of the background "
quote:
All those were were castles ripped out of the ground by an insane amount of magic.
Right again ... exactly , we can read " by an alliance with wizards of the black robe and Takhisis priests " . |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 01:59:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Off the top of my head, I don't know if the mythal-creation process has been flipped to 3.x. The 2E rules for doing it are found in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves. 'Tis actually a ritual, and requires multiple spellcasters.
Rich Baker just posted this on the "other" FR Boards:
"Most of the mythal effects in Forsaken House I made up for the story. As far as when or if you'll see some of those rules, Ancient Empires includes a mythal-building system that marries up epic level rules with some of the 2nd edition capabilities of mythals."
I told you "Ancient Empires" was going to be good.
-- George Krashos
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Sep 2004 : 01:47:19
Just to set the record straight, Steven hasn't swiped anyone else's attempts to create an elvish language - hence he doesn't have any "sources" for his translations (other than his own noggin). Ed may have provided a few elvish words here and there but the elvish you see in "Cormanthyr" and "Fall of Myth Drannor" is Steven's work. I'm wondering if he'll ever get a gig as a freelancer on upcoming FR products - especially considering the stated policy of having at least one freelancer and one staff writer on every FR product ... I know I'd be over the moon to see the name "Steven E Schend" on another FR product.
-- George Krashos
|
| Hymn |
Posted - 17 Sep 2004 : 20:17:03
Ah I happy accept the corrections of my error mr Schend. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Sep 2004 : 15:17:19
quote:
Originally posted by rowwhenn
With the Mythallar, Shadovars created fly-city ... and remember the novels of Dragonlancefrom Weis and Hickman + the Ad&d world Krynn ...
With imagination , and the modification of the background, you can find somewhere else ...
One, the city of Shade was originally in Netheril, and Netheril was on the continent of Faerūn, on Abeir-Toril. The city was sailing the skies of Netheril for years before Mr. Shade decided that he needed to take everyone sight-seeing in Shadow.
Two, the mythallar was not invented by the people of Shade. It was developed by someone else in Netheril, years before the city of Shade was founded. I want to say it was Ioulam, but I don't feel like getting up and grabbing the book right now.
Either way, once it was developed, then a bunch of mages made mythallars so they could have their own cities.
Three, the mythallar and the mythal are not even close to the same thing. A mythallar was more of a giant magical battery than anything else. A mythal, as defined above, is a field of magic surrounding a city that protects and makes life easier for the inhabitants.
Four, the flying citadels of Dragginglance had nothing to do with mythals, either. All those were were castles ripped out of the ground by an insane amount of magic. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing even vaguely mythal-like on any other game world published by WotC.
|
| rowwhenn |
Posted - 17 Sep 2004 : 11:51:54
quote:
Originally posted by richtinIII
are myhals only on aber-toril?
With the Mythallar, Shadovars created fly-city ... and remember the novels of Dragonlancefrom Weis and Hickman + the Ad&d world Krynn ...
With imagination , and the modification of the background, you can find somewhere else ... |
| richtinIII |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 20:07:22
thanx steven for your information it is verrry helpfull, but i agree with anubis, how did you get your info on the elven language??? |
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 18:55:13
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Who'll note that names don't always fall in line with his Elvish notes, since it takes some linguistic gymnastics to translate Mythanthor's own name as "One set apart to enrich the forest"
PS: Note that Mythanthor was named by Ed, this linguistic work post dates the character's creation, and if forced to, I'd conjure up a rationale that this name was one he took on after blasted by backlash and removed from the High Wizards' ranks; therefore, what his name and house was before is unknown, though to elves irrelevant.
I think this has been discussed before, but what is(are) your source(s) for elvish words? Or is it more of a compilation from all the books that feature elves? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 18:44:39
quote:
Originally posted by Hymn
An interesting note to add is that the reason it is called a Mythal is because of it's original creator, High mage Mythanthor who gave his life to create the first Mythal, the one surrounding Myth Drannor. If you want to read more about the creation of mythals etc, I recommend reading Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves.
Actually, that's only partially correct. Mythanthor is the wizard responsible for Myth Drannor's mythal, and he is the original creator of a wizardly mythal (at least in elven style; the Shoon managed a few near-mythals during their rise and reign). Mythanthor was not a High Mage when he created his spell and he was prevented from ever touching High Magic due to magical backlash.
Mythals have existed since the first elves trod the loam of Faerun, and it's only happenstance that Mythanthar has a name linked to it.
This'll be a bit of rationalization, but bear with me.
I've attempted to keep tabs on elvish words, but can only account officially for what I did in Cormanthyr & FOMD. In any case, I see the word mythal as a word linked to manth (place) and ar (gold, in respect to gold elves); loosely translated, "mythal" stands for "near-not-place of splendor/sunlight/glory." Obviously, it loses something in the translation, but it's more a play on the fact that mythals tended to be insubstantial fields of energy as opposed to something physical. (Myth Nantar's mythal, for example, has a far more physical structure than most, given its effects on its watery environment.)
To the elves, mythals were tied to places and to natural energies as well as mystical energies, thus the term Mythal. When standing alone, "myth" as a title hints that the area has a mythal, while its meaning shifts; many elven cities have singular names, but when they have titles ala Myth Drannor, the title underscores its translation as "place set apart from others."
Drannor is an odd word in Elvish but very loosely translates to Common as "No hatred, nothing but love/passion/true essence." Thus, Myth Drannor becomes "The Place Apart for No Hatreds," in some sense. Too bad it didn't fulfill that promise.
Then again, this is all unofficial and conjecture, as I've no official standing to make these comments. They're just ideas and such from my notes and thinking on these things. Take them for what they're worth.
Steven
Who'll note that names don't always fall in line with his Elvish notes, since it takes some linguistic gymnastics to translate Mythanthor's own name as "One set apart to enrich the forest"
PS: Note that Mythanthor was named by Ed, this linguistic work post dates the character's creation, and if forced to, I'd conjure up a rationale that this name was one he took on after blasted by backlash and removed from the High Wizards' ranks; therefore, what his name and house was before is unknown, though to elves irrelevant.
Gosh, how tangled can I make things when I only intended to touch up the comments on Mythanthor's status and its link to the word mythal.... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 18:22:39
quote:
Originally posted by richtinIII
are myhals only on aber-toril?
and how would you go about creating this mythal if i were a mage?
Thus far, mythals have remained a Realms-only concept.
Off the top of my head, I don't know if the mythal-creation process has been flipped to 3.x. The 2E rules for doing it are found in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves. 'Tis actually a ritual, and requires multiple spellcasters. |
| richtinIII |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 17:53:06
are myhals only on aber-toril?
and how would you go about creating this mythal if i were a mage? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 15:34:11
quote:
Originally posted by rowwhenn
Thanks Wooly Rupert for the link !
Not a problem!
It's not been updated in a while, but the FAQ on this site is a good resource. |
| rowwhenn |
Posted - 16 Sep 2004 : 13:37:50
Thanks Wooly Rupert for the link ! |
| Hymn |
Posted - 15 Sep 2004 : 22:38:51
An interesting note to add is that the reason it is called a Mythal is because of it's original creator, High mage Mythanthor who gave his life to create the first Mythal, the one surrounding Myth Drannor. If you want to read more about the creation of mythals etc, I recommend reading Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves. |
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