Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Can we salvage Toril?

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert Email Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]
Rolling Eyes [8|] Confused [?!:] Help [?:] King [3|:]
Laughing [:OD] What [W] Oooohh [:H] Down [:E]

  Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
    

T O P I C    R E V I E W
gregc Posted - 14 Jan 2022 : 17:17:29
Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?

Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?

Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?

Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?

Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Kelcimer Posted - 07 May 2022 : 07:42:19
Hello Seethyr!

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Marvel is certainly an example. A number of times actually. I mean, Captain America was secretly a Hydra agent his whole life? Yes let’s multiverse that the heck away.

The multi billion dollar movie franchise itself is a perfect example.



Marvel is not an example, either the comics or the movies.

I collected Marvel Comics from 1993-2008. Continuity basically went out the window in the late mid to late 90's. Creators used to spend years and years on a title, but the average length of a creator on a title went down to something like 6 months to a year. There are endless reboots, fresh starts, relaunching with a new #1, bringing everyone back from the dead, etc. Having editors who care is not a solution. When they had about 32 titles in the late 80's early 90's it was still possible for a small editorial team to ride herd on continuity, but by the time they got up to 60+ titles a month, it became too much. Good luck on finding a narrative over the course of ten years on any title when it has had 14 changes in creative teams in the same time. I still visit my old comic-book store to talk shop periodically to keep tabs on the state of comics and I also follow Brian Hibbs Tilting at Windmills. Every problem with the comic book industry in general and with Marvel Comics in particular that finally got me to quit in 2008 is still there, but on steroids. This is reflected in sales. In the 1980's Uncanny X-Men was routinely selling 3/4th of a million copies per month. The corresponding title today is lucky to break 50K. That's embarrassing. This is Marvel. They shouldn't have a single title selling under 100K.

As far as the movies go, I thought phase 1 was a solid entry. Then they started to go off the rails in Phase 2, and that has born the fruit in Phase 3 and beyond as I predicted. They can't even do a single universe right and now they are moving straight into "Crisis on Infinite Earths". The only reason "Crisis" was justifiable on a story level was because DC's continuity had gotten so mucked up by the early 80's and they wanted to attempt a story based explanation to sort it out. But since then DC have had fairly regular "Crisis" events. As one of those later events said "Crisis never ended". The strength of Marvel Comics, compared to DC, was that it had a much tighter continuity and didn't need a multiverse to sort out any problems they had with continuity.

So what are they doing in the movies? Instead of making sure to master one universe pretty darn well, they are heading to the dumpster fire of a multiverse. I would describe the Marvel Cinematic Universe as basically the equivalent of a series of one-shots that have high profile creative teams that are merely riffing on better stories told decades prior. There is no through-line and no plan. I had such high hopes too. Phase 1 was pretty strong. *sigh*. Such unrealized potential.
Old Man Harpell Posted - 06 May 2022 : 06:29:04
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Leave my Zakhara alone .



I very much doubt we have anything to worry about in that regard. I agree, though, that it's best that WotC not delve too deeply into resurrecting anything more by way of more of the classic properties. We already know that Spelljammer and Dragonlance are coming to the gaming table - I'm worried enough at what those will entail, I confess I don't much relish learning what their take on Al-Qadim or Oriental Adventures would be.
Seethyr Posted - 05 May 2022 : 15:57:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"Not ever" is a very long time. No one could have predicted in the days of 2E that we'd be in the position we are now, with regards to the setting.

While it is unlikely, my statement was made with the assumption that a future design team was, as is the topic of the discussion, trying to salvage the setting.



I'm trying to think of a single franchise (across gaming, novels, TV, and movies) that has managed to correct itself after years and years of being abused. I can't think of one. Maybe it will happen? Maybe? There's always a first time?



Marvel is certainly an example. A number of times actually. I mean, Captain America was secretly a Hydra agent his whole life? Yes let’s multiverse that the heck away.

The multi billion dollar movie franchise itself is a perfect example.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 05 May 2022 : 12:50:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"Not ever" is a very long time. No one could have predicted in the days of 2E that we'd be in the position we are now, with regards to the setting.

While it is unlikely, my statement was made with the assumption that a future design team was, as is the topic of the discussion, trying to salvage the setting.



I'm trying to think of a single franchise (across gaming, novels, TV, and movies) that has managed to correct itself after years and years of being abused. I can't think of one. Maybe it will happen? Maybe? There's always a first time?



The BattleTech franchise jumped the shark with the Jihad (which was orders of magnitude worse than the Spellplague, because you couldn't hand-wave stuff away by blaming gods or magic). They went hard for the Dark Age stuff until they realized everyone hated it, and now they've changed course by revisiting the Clan Invasion timeframe and by sweeping the Dark Ages stuff under the rug and pushing hard with the ilClan era stuff. They didn't undo the Jihad and the Dark Ages, they just don't mention it as they go back in the direction of stuff people liked.
Azar Posted - 05 May 2022 : 06:15:34
It's the lottery: if the odds are beaten, fantastic, but I won't waste a moment keeping the topic at the forefront of mind.
Kelcimer Posted - 05 May 2022 : 05:57:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"Not ever" is a very long time. No one could have predicted in the days of 2E that we'd be in the position we are now, with regards to the setting.

While it is unlikely, my statement was made with the assumption that a future design team was, as is the topic of the discussion, trying to salvage the setting.



I'm trying to think of a single franchise (across gaming, novels, TV, and movies) that has managed to correct itself after years and years of being abused. I can't think of one. Maybe it will happen? Maybe? There's always a first time?
Azar Posted - 05 May 2022 : 02:30:22
Leave my Zakhara alone .
Wooly Rupert Posted - 04 May 2022 : 11:05:39
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Even though it's not what I'd prefer to see, I've become increasingly convinced that the best thing to do would be scrap everything and roll back to the Old Gray Box.



I dunno. I think the answer is to recognize that the setting is a murdered franchise, come to peace with the fact that WotC is not ever going to handle the setting the way it deserves to be, and to do what you want for your own game with what products you find to be quality.



"Not ever" is a very long time. No one could have predicted in the days of 2E that we'd be in the position we are now, with regards to the setting.

While it is unlikely, my statement was made with the assumption that a future design team was, as is the topic of the discussion, trying to salvage the setting.
Kelcimer Posted - 04 May 2022 : 04:56:09
Hello Old Man Harpell!

quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

At this point, they should consider the idea of turning production of the Realms over to third party licensees - maybe include a clause that Ed Greenwood should be given final approval before publishing any particular work.


I agree. That sounds like the best option for "official" products to be quality. Let people that actually care about the setting be the ones to create new material for it.

Hello Wooly Rupert!

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Even though it's not what I'd prefer to see, I've become increasingly convinced that the best thing to do would be scrap everything and roll back to the Old Gray Box.



I dunno. I think the answer is to recognize that the setting is a murdered franchise, come to peace with the fact that WotC is not ever going to handle the setting the way it deserves to be, and to do what you want for your own game with what products you find to be quality.

Hello gregc!

quote:
Originally posted by gregc
Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?



If someone really wants a published setting that is like Matzica, then they can go out and create their own setting to that effect. Something that isn't just an add on to the realms. Maybe make it in such a way as that it is conducive to being adapted as a replacement for Matzica. But hoping that WotC is going to care enough to a) return to it and b) do a good job sounds like "Waiting for Godot".

Embrace the freedom of just doing with Matzica what you want. This past year I realized Mulmaster did not work for me and I worked up my own writeup of its history and political system. I let my players know what I was doing and they affirmed that I should do what was necessary.

The point is that the published materials are just a starting point. Build your campaign to suit. Cut or rework whatever doesn't work for you. You don't have to wait for WotC to do something they are not going to do.
Old Man Harpell Posted - 02 May 2022 : 00:59:25
At this point, they should consider the idea of turning production of the Realms over to third party licensees - maybe include a clause that Ed Greenwood should be given final approval before publishing any particular work.

Leave the Sword Coast as is, unless third-party licensees want to work on that, too, and move on to the Moonsea, or the Shining South, or what have you.

But even if 5th Edition stays in place for another decade or however long (and it very well might do just that), they're leaving money on the table by not having someone look into other places. GM's Guild helps (Rashamen, The Border Kingdoms, etc), but they could do a lot more with the materials they have.

- OMH
Azar Posted - 30 Apr 2022 : 02:55:52
Even if WOTC releases a comprehensive FR setting book within two years, by that point it will have been close to a decade since the debut of 5e; that sort of "release schedule" is grossly glacial.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 28 Apr 2022 : 02:28:27
Yeah, lack of lore isn't great--and I feel like 5e is already heading in that direction. The lore we've been getting is pretty sparse, and what we do get is either, again, sparse, or changed randomly.
Seethyr Posted - 28 Apr 2022 : 02:26:59
IMHO lack of new lore will kill a good thing before even bad lore does. When that first gamer comes to my table and says “what’s a Toril?” I will hang up my dice.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 28 Apr 2022 : 02:23:54
quote:
Originally posted by Kilamandaros



I actually disagree that it's the left-leaning cancel-culture of the new world that's causing WotC to move away from FR in 5th edition. You need only look at their flagship product which has a much bigger audience and capital reach than D&D - Magic the Gathering - to see they have no qualms exploring locations & worlds with ties to Real World history. Amonkhet, Kamigawa, Ixalan to name just a few sets in recent years that have done this. Yes, the way they approach these settings is a lot more sensitive than it was 30 years ago but I don't believe for a second they would hesitate in D&D.
.....

Whilst we can easily sit and moan that the Realms isn’t getting any love in official releases, I don’t think that’s going to achieve anything. FR had its time in the sun as the poster setting for 5th edition and sadly that’s come to an end. I for one am now looking for a way in to contribute to creating something for the setting – I consider myself a good writer with fairly extensive knowledge of the setting I’ve loved for 25+ years. Just need to work out what kind of software I need and pick a subject!




I don't think it's due to cancel culture, either. I'm actually happy they're trying to be more diverse (though I think they've done some things poorly).

I am of mixed emotions when it comes to them drifting away from FR. On the one hand, a part of me wants them to leave it alone for a while, as I feel they've really messed with the lore, randomly changing it on a dime. Yes, they've changed things before, but this feels like it changes with every new product (I'm still sour about MToF). Not to mention their announcement that anything pre-5e is no longer considered canon.

On the other hand...I love FR, and I want to see more stuff set in the world (I miss the novel line so much).
Quickleaf Posted - 27 Apr 2022 : 18:02:01
Not sure if this is what the OP is looking for, but Ed Greenwood has been involved in several 5th edition DMs Guild projects...

Darkhold https://www.dmsguild.com/product/324679/Darkhold-Secrets-of-the-Zhentarim
Rashemen https://www.dmsguild.com/product/370425/Rashemen--Campaign-Guide
The Border Kingdoms https://www.dmsguild.com/product/244431/The-Border-Kingdoms-A-Forgotten-Realms-Campaign-Supplement (officially approved / canon / Adventurer's League legal)
Thay https://www.dmsguild.com/product/386190/Thay-Land-Of-The-Red-Wizards
Azar Posted - 27 Apr 2022 : 01:19:14
With one swift swing, they can end it forever.
Charles Phipps Posted - 27 Apr 2022 : 00:07:21
I see Forgotten Realms only getting more popular and more likely to be a D&D setting that everyone knows with video games like Baldur's Gate 3.
Renin Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 23:45:09
*laughing*

The more they move from more FR products...the less they can screw up!
George Krashos Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 11:57:01
I agree with Kilamandaros. I've long thought that there are far more non-FR gaming fans out there than hardcore FR fans these days. WotC moving away from the Realms is unsurprising. For me, I have no problem with them never returning to it.

-- George Krashos
Kilamandaros Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 10:59:48
Hi all, hope you don't mind a newbie wading into the discussion with a lengthy post, but this topic actually inspired me to stop lurking and create an account. It's a topic I feel quite passionate about, as the Forgotten Realms have been such a huge part of my life. I belong to a lot of other Realms/D&D groups and communities and have seen this discussion elsewhere so feel compelled to join in.

I actually disagree that it's the left-leaning cancel-culture of the new world that's causing WotC to move away from FR in 5th edition. You need only look at their flagship product which has a much bigger audience and capital reach than D&D - Magic the Gathering - to see they have no qualms exploring locations & worlds with ties to Real World history. Amonkhet, Kamigawa, Ixalan to name just a few sets in recent years that have done this. Yes, the way they approach these settings is a lot more sensitive than it was 30 years ago but I don't believe for a second they would hesitate in D&D.

Unfortunately, the reason I believe we won't be seeing much more FR in 5th edition is actually more down to the very vocal fans (not FR fans) who communicate directly with WotC via Facebook, Twitter and the like who constantly bombard them with requests for their favourite setting to get some focus and complaining they are bored with Forgotten Realms adventures. Yes, Critical Role is part of this but from my experience those clamouring for Eberron, Dragonlance & Spelljammer have been much more vocal and lo and behold there is now lots of focus going in that direction. Next the cry will go up for Darksun almost certainly.

Whilst I, like you all, want nothing more than to see more official books in other locations in FR – not even wider Toril, just away from the Sword Coast would be nice. The Innersea, Dalelands, Anauroch etc. would be fantastic to get some love and attention. In terms of wider Toril I think Maztica is unlikely – Chult already fills the Aztec/South America theme. Kara Tur perhaps more likely, though given the success of the Kamigawa magic set I’d imagine another crossover is a much more likely way they’ll bring Asian/Oriental into 5th.

However, despite this disappointment, I feel hope is not lost. We have fantastic organisations such as the DMsguild, which offers a way to fans to create and publish their own material such as Settings Guides. We even have our beloved creator of the Realms Ed Greenwood getting personally involved and adding his name to fan-made projects. In this thread alone we can see folks who have lovingly and painstakingly put material out there, even for free! I personally now spend way more money on DMsguild than I do on WotC releases and will continue to do so.

Whilst we can easily sit and moan that the Realms isn’t getting any love in official releases, I don’t think that’s going to achieve anything. FR had its time in the sun as the poster setting for 5th edition and sadly that’s come to an end. I for one am now looking for a way in to contribute to creating something for the setting – I consider myself a good writer with fairly extensive knowledge of the setting I’ve loved for 25+ years. Just need to work out what kind of software I need and pick a subject!

Apologies for the lengthy post, I get carried away easily!
Lord Karsus Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 20:25:55
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

To make a game effort:

I think the RL cultures in the Realms have always been an awkward fit and have kind of disrupted the realism of the place, ironically, because you can tell what Ed Greenwood worked on and was willing to work to make into something that integrated to the larger realms and what is just sort of its own thing that technically takes place on the same world.

It doesn't help that there's already some non-white, non-European sorts of places in the Realms that correspond to RL cultures but aren't 1:1 stand ins: Calisham, Chult, and Mulhorand are not perfect representations but they are far better integrated into the Forgotten Realms than the places that just sort of exist.
Or, to put it a different way, Terry Pratchett's overtly fantasy parodies are usually given less flack than trying to make them "accurate" versions of the RL world. You're going to have less problem with Barovia than you are trying to an adaptation of Romania in the Middle Ages with its complicated paganism, Roman ethnic groups, Romani, and so on.

(Though the Vistani could have been handled better)

-At the end of the day, all fantasy cultures are going to have some kernel of real world truth to them, because that's just simply what we know. It's being able to take that kernel and turn it into something new/different/interesting and not some hackneyed blatant rip-off is where the skill and creativity and whatever else comes into play.
Seethyr Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 19:08:19
The missing novel line really hurts a ton too. I have to admit I don’t feel as immersed in FR as I used to and I feel like it has a LOT to do with the fact that it feels static without the novels. I’m glad time isn’t progressing at jumps of 100 years with a RSE every other month but I need something to read. A lot of people aren’t happy with the new Drizzt novel but I was certainly excited to get SOME content and for that matter in a whole new land previously untouched.
Delnyn Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 18:20:24
The short but sloppy answer to the OP question is "Yes".
The more nuanced reply is: "Do not expect WoTC to do it for us or give freelance work its legal blessing."
Charles Phipps Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 14:50:07
To make a game effort:

I think the RL cultures in the Realms have always been an awkward fit and have kind of disrupted the realism of the place, ironically, because you can tell what Ed Greenwood worked on and was willing to work to make into something that integrated to the larger realms and what is just sort of its own thing that technically takes place on the same world.

It doesn't help that there's already some non-white, non-European sorts of places in the Realms that correspond to RL cultures but aren't 1:1 stand ins: Calisham, Chult, and Mulhorand are not perfect representations but they are far better integrated into the Forgotten Realms than the places that just sort of exist.
Or, to put it a different way, Terry Pratchett's overtly fantasy parodies are usually given less flack than trying to make them "accurate" versions of the RL world. You're going to have less problem with Barovia than you are trying to an adaptation of Romania in the Middle Ages with its complicated paganism, Roman ethnic groups, Romani, and so on.

(Though the Vistani could have been handled better)

As mentioned elsewhere, Mulhorand isn't even a stand-in. It's Stargate SG-1 from decades earlier. A bunch of ancient Egyptians were moved by Ra and company through a portal (actually, that really is just Stargate--Ed should ask for some money) and they built their own culture there. They're integrated to the setting because the Red Wizards of Thay are all descended from them. It's also a kind of neat homage to Robert E. Howard because the cutlure most like Stygia with its evil Bane/Set worshiping wizards is literally descended from Ancient Egyptians. It's just the Ancient Egyptians think they're a bunch of scumbags and look down on them as evil doers.

I think the ultimate example of this is probably an odd question that occurred to me while incorporating coffee, bannanas, and a bunch of other "modern" foods in my Realm notes. I wrote down, "These come from Maztica" as a joke and then it got me thinking, "How are the Realms interacting with all these nations? What are the trade routes from Kara-Tur like? Is there a Silk Road? It's been a hundred years, surely things have either stabilized or finished. What does the relationship between Faerun and these lands on a trade and cultural level look like?"

Maztica is a place that as a stand-in for South American cultures is fine but if history DOESN'T go like RL where plague and conquest decimated them, then what now? The Church of Helm doesn't have the oomph or commitment to genocide to be conquistidors. So presumably its not going to make that big of an inraod. What about Faerun traders who are significantly less assholish than the theocratic fascism of the Spanish Empire? People who want to just trade and explore? These are questions RL history can't provide answers for.

The more its "realistic" by the REALMS, the less realistic by RL it will be.

I'm reminded of GREEDFALL which was an attempt to do a awesome Bioware-esque storyline that used the exploration of the New World as an option. The problem being that RL history and colonialism was so disgusting that even if you wanted to fight against the evil Inquisitors, merchants, and so on--you still felt kind of awful.

https://kotaku.com/greedfalls-detailed-role-playing-cant-make-up-for-its-u-1837994750

Maybe it would have been better to have the Church of Bane and Zhentarim set up in Maztiza to do all the nastiness but eventually the setting would have to deal with, "What if Europeans showed up who weren't jerkasses?" And then you must write the storyline of how the setting might be. Xen'Drick from the Dungeons and Dragons Online game went with a big European City that is there and not invading.
Charles Phipps Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 14:40:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The original topic was, "Can we salvage Toril?" I'm now wondering if we can leave off with the real-world politics and salvage this discussion.



You are absolutely correct and I will remove all RL politics from my responses and talk instead about the issue from a purely artistic and creative perspective.

1. Are the RL locations fun for a Dungeon Master and gamers as is?

2. Could they be better?

3. Are they better than they might be if they were more "fantacized" or rewritten to be more from the perspective of their cultures than exotic lands? Either.

Which I think is fodder for a lot of discussion I think.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 02:52:44
The original topic was, "Can we salvage Toril?" I'm now wondering if we can leave off with the real-world politics and salvage this discussion.
Charles Phipps Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 02:14:22
Right and left depend tremendously on where you're standing.

I'm a committed anarchist and oppose all authoritarian dictatorships, Right or Left.

I also realize that anarchy without some system to oppose power results in the creation of dictatorships as no restrictions create a power vacuum.
mastermustard Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 01:03:21
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard

quote:
Originally posted by gregc

Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?

Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?

Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?

Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?

Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.


If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.

I have problems with Maztica as well but not social-justicy ones. I just found that piece of realmslore to be poorly written and uninspired.

In any case, retconning is the worst thing you can do if you value a "shared world experience". It creates chaos and makes the world feel less tangible.




Politics in general move to the left over time: more civil rights, less overall ignorance, greater acceptance of science, et cetera. There are momentary reactionary outcries (bumps in the road), no doubt, but that's all they are: momentary.

As for Kara-Tur/Al-Qadim/Maztica, however, those fictional lands are fine as long as people can separate fiction from reality. Quality of writing, well...that's another matter altogether.



This is basically the premise of Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" which theorises that humanity has been advancing towards liberalism and that it is the final endpoint of humanity's sociocultural evolution. Even Fukuyama now understands that he was very wrong in his assumptions.

In reality, social liberalism is the product of abundance and prosperity. The assumption that we will always be moving further left, socially, relies on the notion that our current civilisation will continue to prosper perpetually and will never decline, which is certainly not the reality considering that global power is now moving Eastward along with all of the cataclysms that we are projected to experience this century (climate change, ocean acidification, sea level rise, to name a few) which will strain even the richest nations. The West's decline is virtually set in stone.

A civilisation that doesn't have abundant resources or a way to effectively distribute them, even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union, will become socially conservative despite the intentions of its ruling class, because hardship creates the conditions that necessitate rightward thinking as a matter of survival.



quote:
even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union


That's an assumption: society only (uniformly?) improves or declines because of one specific reason. As an example, gay rights in Russia are appalling, despite the continually elevated standard of living (unless you're going to argue that their situation now is worse than it was half a century ago). There are some societal advancements not reliant upon extra wheat or water. Also, you seem to conflate economically left-leaning with socially left-leaning; it is possible to champion one at the expense of the other, though it admittedly becomes difficult once the extremes are reached.

Anyhow, I apologize for feeding the beast, Wooly. I should know better by this point. Adios.



Humans are the primary drivers of societal advancement, and humans require food and resources. In the absence of wheat and water, social advancements suddenly aren't so important. Sharing and being nice isn't an effective evolutionary survival strategy -- it only works when you have a surplus.

Russia's homophobia is a relic of attitudes from the Soviet Union, which initially was intended by its architects to be a utopia that accepted anyone regardless of their condition or persuasion. By the end it had been subverted and was leftwing only economically, because people that are suffering and living in poverty cling to tradition and religion rather than fancy ideas about social justice.

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

quote:
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.


I mean they're problematic because they're using RL cultures as direct copy and pastes with a lot of stereotyping and mishandling of the accurate versions.


I do think things like attempting to shoehorn in real life events such as mongol/hun invasions and using Helm as a stand-in for the Christian god and a pseudo-Spanish conquest of the Americas in is in poor taste. Or rather, just uninspired, hack writing.

However, using RL cultures is simply unavoidable, even if they end up bastardized. This is a shared world with a lot of fluff, and culture is rather intricate to the point that it would be difficult to create new cultures from scratch, even if it would be nice if writers were willing to do so. Most Faerunian cultures are rather generically European and there are plenty of inaccuracies there as well, but it's okay since they're fictional and writers are expected to take liberties in a fantasy setting.

Since culture is the framework with which people interact with the world and which the reader uses to interact with, and empathise with the characters, not including them at all would make the stories incredibly dry.

Just my opinion.



Azar Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 00:38:19
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard

quote:
Originally posted by gregc

Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?

Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?

Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?

Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?

Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.


If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.

I have problems with Maztica as well but not social-justicy ones. I just found that piece of realmslore to be poorly written and uninspired.

In any case, retconning is the worst thing you can do if you value a "shared world experience". It creates chaos and makes the world feel less tangible.




Politics in general move to the left over time: more civil rights, less overall ignorance, greater acceptance of science, et cetera. There are momentary reactionary outcries (bumps in the road), no doubt, but that's all they are: momentary.

As for Kara-Tur/Al-Qadim/Maztica, however, those fictional lands are fine as long as people can separate fiction from reality. Quality of writing, well...that's another matter altogether.



This is basically the premise of Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" which theorises that humanity has been advancing towards liberalism and that it is the final endpoint of humanity's sociocultural evolution. Even Fukuyama now understands that he was very wrong in his assumptions.

In reality, social liberalism is the product of abundance and prosperity. The assumption that we will always be moving further left, socially, relies on the notion that our current civilisation will continue to prosper perpetually and will never decline, which is certainly not the reality considering that global power is now moving Eastward along with all of the cataclysms that we are projected to experience this century (climate change, ocean acidification, sea level rise, to name a few) which will strain even the richest nations. The West's decline is virtually set in stone.

A civilisation that doesn't have abundant resources or a way to effectively distribute them, even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union, will become socially conservative despite the intentions of its ruling class, because hardship creates the conditions that necessitate rightward thinking as a matter of survival.



quote:
even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union


That's an assumption: society only (uniformly?) improves or declines because of one specific reason. As an example, gay rights in Russia are appalling, despite the continually elevated standard of living (unless you're going to argue that their situation now is worse than it was half a century ago). There are some societal advancements not reliant upon extra wheat or water. Also, you seem to conflate economically left-leaning with socially left-leaning; it is possible to champion one at the expense of the other, though it admittedly becomes difficult once the extremes are reached.

Anyhow, I apologize for feeding the beast, Wooly. I should know better by this point. Adios.
Charles Phipps Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 00:24:34
quote:
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.


I mean they're problematic because they're using RL cultures as direct copy and pastes with a lot of stereotyping and mishandling of the accurate versions.

Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000