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 Looking for "ancient dwarven spellcaster orders"

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Eldacar Posted - 08 Nov 2021 : 15:29:29
I'm currently running a campaign (5e), and one player is a human eldritch knight. A blacksmith in Goldenfields, the town was attacked and so he picked up his hammer to fight; his "blessing" (he uses an Eberron subrace, the Mark of Making) manifested in the moment, and the subsequent battle was the opening session that brought the party together.

The party is now a ways beyond that and is trekking through a long-abandoned dwarven infested by orcs/undead (mixing the mines of Moria with Dragon Age darkspawn). I have decided one of the treasures will be a dwarven thrower. Which is a hammer and thus fits the "blacksmith" ideology of the player it will be for near-perfectly. Normally only dwarves can attune one, but I can handwave that.

This is what brings me to the core of my question, since I let the dice decide some history via the DMG tables.

"Arcane: This item was created for an ancient order of spellcasters and bears the order's symbol."

Would folk here have suggestions on "ancient" orders of dwarven spellcasters in Faerun (Mystra involvement would be nice as she is the player's patron goddess, but not a deal breaker) that would be good or interesting choices to have created/used such a weapon? I don't know a great deal of in-depth dwarven history.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Bladewind Posted - 03 Dec 2021 : 21:44:12
Of the two twin demigods Diinkarazan was the most obviously wild magicly gifted. Dieties and Demigods said he could easily cast high level abjurations and evocations but sporadically did so at patheticly low level. Even imprisoned to his throne in the Mad Gods realm he is constantly surrounded by a windlike force he manifests instinctively to defend against his percieved threats.

This theme of erratic spellcasting might be a clue to dwarven societies early experiments with the arcane leading to unpredictable results. Dwarves like to grasp a problem meticulously and without error so a myth surrounding wild magic spellcasters getting disowned could be a good explenation why dwarves traditionally shun organised arcane casting.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 03 Dec 2021 : 16:00:20
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

It seems to me the dwarven mages of ancient times were all Wild Mages. They had trouble controlling the results of spells; after years of study the chance of a spell going awry was still significant: unacceptable for a typical dwarven mindset.



I don't see this one, especially given the prevalence of magical weapons and armor crafted by dwarves... What leads you to this conclusion?
Bladewind Posted - 03 Dec 2021 : 15:38:59
Derro are the result of Diirinka(and Diinkarazan)'s attempts to get an underground worshipping base of faster, more magical beings than typical dwarves. The breeding experiments of crossing humans with dwarves was thought to have have led to traits more sought after by the twin deities of magic.

Also if you look at the Derro adversaries found in tomes over the years you can see Derro who worship Diirinka the Betrayer tend to favor shadow sorcery that confuses; while the rare few who favor Diinkarazan the Mad God show the sorcerous skills of wild magic enhanced evokers and abjurers.

It seems to me the dwarven mages of ancient times were all Wild Mages. They had trouble controlling the results of spells; after years of study the chance of a spell going awry was still significant: unacceptable for a typical dwarven mindset.

The spontaneity of sorcerous blood is another strike against organised spellcasting orders forming within a typical dwarven realm. Diirinka needed human bloodlines with strong sorcerous ability to mingle with the dwarves to increase the chance of sorcerous dwarven children being born.
Delnyn Posted - 03 Dec 2021 : 10:51:44
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
His avatar is a "withered, lichlike creature" and one of his titles is "the Deep Lich". If he's not a lich, he's the closest the dwarves have to one.



Thanks LoB. I can see the Mordinsamman kicking Diirinka out of the pantheon, if he ever was a member.
LordofBones Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 10:08:18
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.


LoB, do you know the source for the implied lichdom? It could help explain much of derros being an outcast race. The Mordinsamman as a rule do not appreciate undead.



His avatar is a "withered, lichlike creature" and one of his titles is "the Deep Lich". If he's not a lich, he's the closest the dwarves have to one.
Delnyn Posted - 28 Nov 2021 : 11:43:13
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.


LoB, do you know the source for the implied lichdom? It could help explain much of derros being an outcast race. The Mordinsamman as a rule do not appreciate undead.
LordofBones Posted - 28 Nov 2021 : 05:09:51
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...



Not just that, but he's implied to be a lich.
AJA Posted - 28 Nov 2021 : 03:55:07
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon.

Suddenly looking forward to the next Impiltur supplement featuring the Hanseathic League coming out of the northern Easting Reach, to form a trade confederation based around brewing, drinking and singing.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

So simple, yet seemingly so difficult.

Wooly Rupert Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 15:54:44
quote:
Originally posted by see

I'll note that in AD&D 2nd edition, Laduguer was explicitly a god of magic; it was listed in his portfolio in both Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities. The obvious reason dwarves couldn't be wizards, then, was that Moradin had exiled the dwarf god of magic; that was also presumably why they had difficulty using many magic items.

(The logical thing for 3rd edition, then, would have been a very cool rapprochement in the wake of the Time of Troubles, a distrustful working relationship made between Moradin and Laduguer to reverse the long decline of both halves of dwarfdom. Instead we got that "Thunder Blessing" in the FRCS that explicitly excluded duergar.)

Incidentally, the way dwarves crafted magic items in AD&D 1e was explicitly that their clerics did it (and dwarf clerics in that edition were NPC only, before Unearthed Arcana came out).



The Thunder Blessing was the perfect way to address dwarven wizards, too -- just a sentence or two saying "Moradin decided magic was cool and that dwarves should use it" and there would have been no issues and no questions about the change. Instead, this opportunity to explain a change was ignored (deliberately, I suspect, since nothing else was explained, either).
see Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 14:47:52
I'll note that in AD&D 2nd edition, Laduguer was explicitly a god of magic; it was listed in his portfolio in both Monster Mythology and Demihuman Deities. The obvious reason dwarves couldn't be wizards, then, was that Moradin had exiled the dwarf god of magic; that was also presumably why they had difficulty using many magic items.

(The logical thing for 3rd edition, then, would have been a very cool rapprochement in the wake of the Time of Troubles, a distrustful working relationship made between Moradin and Laduguer to reverse the long decline of both halves of dwarfdom. Instead we got that "Thunder Blessing" in the FRCS that explicitly excluded duergar.)

Incidentally, the way dwarves crafted magic items in AD&D 1e was explicitly that their clerics did it (and dwarf clerics in that edition were NPC only, before Unearthed Arcana came out).
Bladewind Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 20:13:39
Wasn't Dirrinka a Derro diety of magic of a sort? Derro barely count as twisted dwarves but their abilities are sorcerous...
Wooly Rupert Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 15:32:37
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

-- George Krashos



I could definitely see some Azerblood dwarves worshipping Tharmekhûl, and since Eric gave them a region in the realms, I see that as a good addition

From Dragon 350: Legacies of Ancient Empires

Azerbloods are most common in the Small Teeth mountains of western Amn, as most are members of the remnants of Clan Azerkyn, which once ruled the southern caverns of the Adamant Kingdom of Xothaerin. Individual azerbloods can also be found in shield dwarf clans dwelling in the mountain ranges that lie near the Lake of Steam.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Xothaerin

I could see Shanatar also being a place where Thautum might have also been worshipped.

It should be noted that Dugmaren Brightmantle fills a role as a god of knowledge and "spellcasters". Thautum is more a god of "making magic weapons and armor". He's a crafting god. In this way, I would probably present Dugmaren as a god embraced by wizards, but Thautum would be embraced by artificers (who tend to be inclined to melee than traditional wizards in current rulesets). Thautum would be a great god for artificer armorers and battlesmiths.



I find no reason to object to this. Connecting Azerblood dwarves to Tharmekhûl gives him more of a purpose than just being Moradin's assistant and gives him at least something Realms-specific.

Thautum as a god of crafting magical items works for me, too. It still leaves Dugmaren as the god of dwarven wizards (which I clearly favor), but gives Thautum a useful role -- because dwarves are known for the magical items they craft. (This was always an issue for me, in 2E, anyway: if dwarves couldn't be wizards, how could they make magical items? The way Salvatore handled Bruenor making Aegis-Fang was well-done, but that came across as a once-in-a-lifetime thing and didn't solve the entire issue)
sleyvas Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 13:59:27
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

-- George Krashos



I could definitely see some Azerblood dwarves worshipping Tharmekhûl, and since Eric gave them a region in the realms, I see that as a good addition

From Dragon 350: Legacies of Ancient Empires

Azerbloods are most common in the Small Teeth mountains of western Amn, as most are members of the remnants of Clan Azerkyn, which once ruled the southern caverns of the Adamant Kingdom of Xothaerin. Individual azerbloods can also be found in shield dwarf clans dwelling in the mountain ranges that lie near the Lake of Steam.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Xothaerin

I could see Shanatar also being a place where Thautum might have also been worshipped.

It should be noted that Dugmaren Brightmantle fills a role as a god of knowledge and "spellcasters". Thautum is more a god of "making magic weapons and armor". He's a crafting god. In this way, I would probably present Dugmaren as a god embraced by wizards, but Thautum would be embraced by artificers (who tend to be inclined to melee than traditional wizards in current rulesets). Thautum would be a great god for artificer armorers and battlesmiths.
sleyvas Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 13:33:03
Going back to what I was discussing previously, about incorporating some Norse Lore in an unusual way... it COULD be that the dwarves at one point did have a much more proactive god of knowledge and magic prior to Dugmaren Brightmantle. Perhaps he was killed off, and there was some kind of backlash (literal) of a magical form within dwarven society. Now that could be the aforementioned Alviss, a dwarven god of runic knowledge, or it could be a more traditional dwarven deity (i.e. the derro god who is confined to a throne that may have links to the far realm). It could be something where the dwarven ties to their wards, which were tied to the god of runes, led to some bleed over of insanity into the minds of dwarven mages. This might have led to the distrust of magic that we see now. It also might not have been insanity, but rather actions like wild magic resulting from the death of the gods, which would also lead to distrust (because dwarves like things that happen consistently). It may also be that Dugmaren got some of his portfolios because he's tried to carry what Alviss did before he was killed, but he lacks some of what Alviss knew (perhaps because other deities somehow stole the knowledge before killing him).

I especially stress this with the idea of this topic of "an ancient dwarven spellcaster order".... so it doesn't mean that the spellcaster order is currently active. This can lead off to a storyline within a campaign where perhaps dwarves are extremely interested in this weapon not for its abilities, but because it hints to a history that's been lost to them. It might open up the "rediscovery" of lost lore or some lost kingdom, etc..
George Krashos Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 07:06:21
Ed has confirmed on Twitter that Hanseath is part of the FR dwarven pantheon. And as Eric noted above, not all dwarves were necessarily anti-magic. It might well be that worship of Thautum and Tharmekhûl has fallen away and languishes in small, isolated holds and shrines. The Realms has room for all - as long as you do it right.

-- George Krashos
Wooly Rupert Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 22:20:13
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Well, as to whether it referred to literally arcane magic in that instance, I guess only Eric L. Boyd can answer, since he wrote the book.

But honestly each to his own. I quite relish those supplemental books of the 3E era myself and would welcome seeing some of those deities, monsters and races adapted to the Realms.

Goliaths and Dragonborn also had their origins in those books (Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon respectively), and they have frequently appeared in 5E FR adventure books. Also, Tharmekhûl (another dwarf deity from Races of Stone, same as Thautam) was mentioned in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage, as being worshipped by clan Melairkyn.

And technically a lot of the demihuman and monster deities (Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, etc.) are not the creations of Ed or other FR designers but rather had their origins in the Deities and Demigods (1980) book which is also a general D&D supplemental book. But those deities were eventually adapted to the Realms. I can't help but wonder what the Forgotten Realms was like before this, or what the religion of the elves, dwarves, etc. was like (perhaps they just worshipped the standard FR pantheon, for example Selune for elves or Tyr for dwarves?).



Actually, the dragonborn of 3E and the dragonborn of 4E/5E are not at all related. It was another unfortunate example of WotC saying "hey, let's ignore what we've already done here, and just do something entirely different!" The 3E dragonborn were originally elves and humans and other PC races that chose to be reborn in a more draconic form.

As for Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage... Well, let's just say that when it comes to Undermountain, this is another source that ignores prior lore and changes something existing into something it's not. What they did with Jhesiyra Kestellharp, in particular, is just painful.

When the Realms was first published, the default stance for non-human deities was the existing ones were the ones in the Realms. They're in the OGB, and in the old "Down to Earth Divinity" article, Ed says "All nonhumans’ deities, plus Thrym and Surtur of the Norse mythos, from the DDG, have been adopted." The article specifically references Rillifane Rallathil and Lolth. The original DDG didn't give much coverage to the dwarven pantheon; I believe it was Monster Mythology that filled that one out, and that book has been sort of the default for gods not covered elsewhere, at least until those Races of Whatever books came out.

And again, I want to make it clear, I'm not adverse to bringing in deities, when appropriate. But there has to be an entirely empty space to be filled, a need to fill that space, and a good candidate for that space. I'd not bring in a dwarven god of knock-knock jokes, because there's no need for one. The god of cups and saucers that Ilsensine wryly commented on is also entirely unnecessary.

Dwarves didn't need a god of magic when their pantheon was laid out because they couldn't use arcane magic -- that god would have been as relevant as a god of knock-knock jokes.

In later editions, with dwarves able to use magic, then it makes sense for them to have a deity of magic. If it wasn't for Dugmaren Brightmantle, I'd've tapped Dumathoin for the role, as the Keeper of Secrets Under the Mountain.

But for Dugmaren, we've got that reference in Demihuman Deities and another I just found, from Monster Mythology (page 18): "There are very few cases of dwarven deities governing the sea, plant life and agriculture, atmospheric phenomena (rain, clouds, stars, etc.), woodlands and forests, animals, comedy and pleasure, or arcane and mystical knowledge (Dugmaren Brightmantle is unique on this score)." His write-up on page 29 also says "Recovery of lost and/or arcane knowledge is a prime task."

Even if you discount those references, many mages are all about discovery and experimentation, and that is still covered by Dugmaren. Sure, those things are covered in other pantheons by deities not associated with magic, but that doesn't change how good of a fit it is.

Thautum is simply redundant, in addition to not being established in Realmslore. Tharmekhûl seems to be just a space filler, though I think he'd be a better fit if the focus was on fire being used to strengthen and purify things, rather than "Moradin's toady who does these things on the side."

Honestly, if I was going to import any of the Races of Stone deities into the dwarven pantheon, it'd be Hanseath. Brewing, drinking, and singing are big deals to the dwarves, so it's an odd omission from their established pantheon.
deserk Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 20:32:34
Well, as to whether it referred to literally arcane magic in that instance, I guess only Eric L. Boyd can answer, since he wrote the book.

But honestly each to his own. I quite relish those supplemental books of the 3E era myself and would welcome seeing some of those deities, monsters and races adapted to the Realms.

Goliaths and Dragonborn also had their origins in those books (Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon respectively), and they have frequently appeared in 5E FR adventure books. Also, Tharmekhûl (another dwarf deity from Races of Stone, same as Thautam) was mentioned in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage, as being worshipped by clan Melairkyn.

And technically a lot of the demihuman and monster deities (Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, etc.) are not the creations of Ed or other FR designers but rather had their origins in the Deities and Demigods (1980) book which is also a general D&D supplemental book. But those deities were eventually adapted to the Realms. I can't help but wonder what the Forgotten Realms was like before this, or what the religion of the elves, dwarves, etc. was like (perhaps they just worshipped the standard FR pantheon, for example Selune for elves or Tyr for dwarves?).
Wooly Rupert Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 20:11:29
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I said I'm not adverse to expanding racial pantheons; I'm just not going to accept all deities from all sources.

And as I said, we've already got a strong candidate for a deity for dwarven magic use, without having to import some generic "hey, let's fill a slot that may or may not even exist in this culture!" deity.


But he isn't really a particularly strong candidate for magic use. Dugmaren Brightmantle is more like Oghma (scholarship) and Gond (invention), than he is like Mystra. He isn't someone whom explicitly advocates the use of arcane magic.

That snippet you quoted "Seek to recover the lost and/or arcane knowledge of ages past and apply it in the world of today." is about the only little thing that could remotely even hint of promoting wizardry. It could just as easily mean encouraging his followers to seek arcane (as in something mysterious and yet unknown, the literal meaning of the word) knowledge, not necessarily arcane magic. Which would make more sense, given the full context of everything else written about him in Demihuman Deities.



That was written in 2E, when dwarves couldn't use arcane magic, as I already noted. Dwarven wizards were not possible, per core rules, until 3E.

And in D&D, "arcane" has always referred to magic -- specifically, wizardly magic. The word "arcane" was used as a deliberate reference to magic.

Rather than import someone's spur of the moment bit of filler from a supplemental core book, I'm going to look at the deity that per published Realmslore already has an interest in magic and expand his portfolios just a hair.

Besides, the Mordenkainen book doesn't give Thautum the magic portfolio, anyway. And there is absolutely nothing connecting Thautum to the Realms.
deserk Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 19:38:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I said I'm not adverse to expanding racial pantheons; I'm just not going to accept all deities from all sources.

And as I said, we've already got a strong candidate for a deity for dwarven magic use, without having to import some generic "hey, let's fill a slot that may or may not even exist in this culture!" deity.


But he isn't really a particularly strong candidate for magic use. Dugmaren Brightmantle is more like Oghma (scholarship) and Gond (invention), than he is like Mystra. He isn't someone whom explicitly advocates the use of arcane magic.

That snippet you quoted "Seek to recover the lost and/or arcane knowledge of ages past and apply it in the world of today." is about the only little thing that could remotely even hint of promoting wizardry. It could just as easily mean encouraging his followers to seek arcane (as in something mysterious and yet unknown, the literal meaning of the word) knowledge, not necessarily arcane magic. Which would make more sense, given the full context of everything else written about him in Demihuman Deities.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 19:01:27
I said I'm not adverse to expanding racial pantheons; I'm just not going to accept all deities from all sources.

And as I said, we've already got a strong candidate for a deity for dwarven magic use, without having to import some generic "hey, let's fill a slot that may or may not even exist in this culture!" deity.
deserk Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 16:57:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not entirely adverse to expanding racial pantheons, but at the same time, it's not something I am eager to do... It depends, in part, on the source. If it had been a Realms book or maybe even the 2E The Complete Book of Dwarves, that'd be one thing. A random article in Dragon from someone I've never heard of or those "let's just slap some stuff together to sell more books!" Races of Whatever books? Nope, not having it. (Especially since pantheons reflect the culture of their worshipers; if something isn't covered by an existing member of the pantheon, it's likely not important to the culture)


Thautum was also referenced in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.

I don't see why there couldn't be more racial deities than otherwise known. Certain regions of the Realms might have different racial pantheons than what is typically represented, or their pantheon might be structured differently (similar to how the Greek deity Ares is an impulsive and destructive god of war, whereas the Roman deity Mars is an honourable, stabilizing and guardian-like god of war). Faerun is vast, but Realms books have generally focused heavily on North and the Western Heartlands (especially in this current 5E era) at the expense of the rest of the continent. Why would every dwarven realm in Faerun, like those in the far away Great Rift (and the Deep Realm) or Siremum in it have the exact same religious interpretations, views or mythology as those dwarves descended of Delzoun or Shanatar?

Also given that elves and dwarves used to be much more prominent in the ancient ages of Faerun, it could be likely that they had a much more expansive religious pantheon, and that there are some elvish or dwarven demipowers that could have been forgotten in the current age or reduced to such a small following that many other current living elves or dwarves are not aware of the existence of said demipowers.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 16:25:26
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Rogues cover too wide a variety of archetypes to really be pigeon-holed. A dwarven explosives expert, trapsmith, archeologist or investigator is different from an assassin or thief, but both fall under the rogue umbrella.



2E didn't have those things. For 2E rogues, you were a bard or a thief. And for dwarves, it was *explicitly* limited to thieves (page 27 of the revised, green cover 2E PHB):

"A character of the dwarven race can be a cleric, a fighter, or a thief. He can also choose to be a fighter/cleric or fighter/thief."

Given that it also discusses their love of hard work and fighting, thief is an odd choice - thieves are not known for hard work and are in fact known for profiting from the work of others.

I can see a dwarf being an explosives expert, trapsmith, archeologist, or investigator, but none of those are supported in 2E.

You could do a trapsmith, but that's only if the thief maxes out that skill at the expense of the other thieving abilities. Given the rules prohibited putting more than half of the points gained at leveling up into a single skill, not including stat bonuses, a 2E thief couldn't max out Find/Remove Traps until 5th level. (2E didn't really have a setting traps skill for thieves, but I'd allow F/RT to cover it)
LordofBones Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 11:14:54
Rogues cover too wide a variety of archetypes to really be pigeon-holed. A dwarven explosives expert, trapsmith, archeologist or investigator is different from an assassin or thief, but both fall under the rogue umbrella.
bloodtide_the_red Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 00:33:12
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I got the impression that AD&D dwarven rogues were intended to be outcasts from their clans.



In general, a rogue or thief is an outcast from a clan, family or society. Most D&D lore said something like few dwarf rogues lives in dwarven cities and instead went to other, more mixed race cities.

Delnyn Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 17:05:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know... I now find myself wondering what was the philosophy behind saying dwarves couldn't be mages... Sure, I know the class restrictions and level limits and all that was to make humans more appealing, but given that dwarves -- even in D&D -- have a long history of producing magical weapons and armor, then it doesn't make sense to say they can't use magic.

If anything, dwarven rogues were the ones that seemed off, to me.



Aside from the issue of making humans more appealing, I would claim AD&D put spellcasters -especially magic-users- in "hard mode" of play. They took days to replenish cast spells and could often be one-shotted. A dwarf would at least partially offset the key drawback of squishiness for magic-users.

I got the impression that AD&D dwarven rogues were intended to be outcasts from their clans.
Gary Dallison Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 16:01:32
Rune casters is the answer for the dwarves.

Weave magic is not the only magic around.

Dwarves did not have a cultural or historical link to the weave (unlike humans and elves) so they had likely explored other methods before discovering the weave, and there association with giants (who also do rune casting) makes it likely that dwarves who could use magic did runecasting instead of wizardry and that runecasters made magic items.

Rune casters must (since it doesnt use the weave) imbue raw magic into their runes and these runes likewise imbue magic properties upon whatever it is carved. The runes can also be broken to unleash the raw magic.

Rune casters etch the runes on weapons and armour and make then magical.

Dwarves are all about tradition, it is likely this devotion to tradition is what kept them away from weave use for so long.

Elves somehow managed to link their entire race to the weave to make them better at it and (this last part is my supposition) to allow then to use their elven high magic rituals through the weave).

Humans of course were influenced by outside forces to using the weave early on when netheril was introduced to it and then Netherils fall spread that knowledge all the way up and down the sword coast and the inner sea. If George's work is correct a similar thing happened in imaskar and the fall of that nation spread weave use to the hordelands, karatur, mulhorand, unther, and then onto shaar and the shining south and unapproachable east etc.

But dwarves were around before humans and learned from the giants and stuck with that until ammarindar.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 15:23:26
You know... I now find myself wondering what was the philosophy behind saying dwarves couldn't be mages... Sure, I know the class restrictions and level limits and all that was to make humans more appealing, but given that dwarves -- even in D&D -- have a long history of producing magical weapons and armor, then it doesn't make sense to say they can't use magic.

If anything, dwarven rogues were the ones that seemed off, to me.
sleyvas Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 12:55:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not entirely adverse to expanding racial pantheons, but at the same time, it's not something I am eager to do... It depends, in part, on the source. If it had been a Realms book or maybe even the 2E The Complete Book of Dwarves, that'd be one thing. A random article in Dragon from someone I've never heard of or those "let's just slap some stuff together to sell more books!" Races of Whatever books? Nope, not having it. (Especially since pantheons reflect the culture of their worshipers; if something isn't covered by an existing member of the pantheon, it's likely not important to the culture). Now Alviss' petrified body floats in the astral, and the gods of the Mordinsamman are careful about trusting the gods of the Metahel (who are a post-Ragnarok norse pantheon with Odin dead and a lot of twists on the classic norse story of Ragnarok, such as Loki <aka Valigor the Runtborn Giant... or Valigan Thirdborn> was working with the gods to lure the enemy into a trap).

Besides, we have the perfect candidate among the dwarven pantheon, already, for a deity of magic: Dugmaren Brightmantle.

In 2E, when dwarves could not practice arcane magic per the PHB, his portfolios were (per Demihuman Deities) scholarship, invention, and discovery.

Page 57 of that book notes that "His worshipers are consumed with the acquiring of knowledge simply for its own sake rather than for any practical purpose."

But the real kicker is on page 58 (emphasis mine):

quote:

The secrets of the world are waiting to be revealed. Travel widely, broaden your mind at every opportunity, and pursue the life of a scholar. Cultivate the spirit of inquiry among the young and be a teacher to all. Seek to recover the lost and/or arcane knowledge of ages past and apply it in the world of today. Try new methods of doing things just for the joy of experimenting. Learn a little of everything, for you never know what might be of use down the road.


So without going to a generic source, we've got established Realmslore saying a particular dwarven deity has an interest in magic. Given that and his portfolios, it's not a stretch to put him as the deity of dwarven wizards.





Not necessarily something to include in FR, but it might be of interest to some (and it is something I stuck in my metahel pantheon)... in the norse pantheon, Thor has a daughter named Thrud and a dwarven god (Alviss) requests her hand. Alviss is a god of knowledge and runes. In order to "Prove he's worthy" they devise a strategy that they will allow the marriage if he answers all their questions. So, they ask him questions until the sun rises, and it turns him to stone. My personal adapatation for the metahel was that Alviss was asked to reveal his knowledge of runes in order to prove he was worthy by Thoordra Thorosdottir, and he did so in order to get her hand, which she freely gave, but giving up all his knowledge was seen as the move of a fool and thus proving himself unworthy in the eyes of Thoordra's father, and thus he killed Alviss (yeah, my Thoros is CN and not necessarily the most well intentioned or fair).
LordofBones Posted - 13 Nov 2021 : 23:46:29
The noble art of beardomancy is being rediscovered, I see.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 13 Nov 2021 : 20:31:06
I'm not entirely adverse to expanding racial pantheons, but at the same time, it's not something I am eager to do... It depends, in part, on the source. If it had been a Realms book or maybe even the 2E The Complete Book of Dwarves, that'd be one thing. A random article in Dragon from someone I've never heard of or those "let's just slap some stuff together to sell more books!" Races of Whatever books? Nope, not having it. (Especially since pantheons reflect the culture of their worshipers; if something isn't covered by an existing member of the pantheon, it's likely not important to the culture)

Besides, we have the perfect candidate among the dwarven pantheon, already, for a deity of magic: Dugmaren Brightmantle.

In 2E, when dwarves could not practice arcane magic per the PHB, his portfolios were (per Demihuman Deities) scholarship, invention, and discovery.

Page 57 of that book notes that "His worshipers are consumed with the acquiring of knowledge simply for its own sake rather than for any practical purpose."

But the real kicker is on page 58 (emphasis mine):

quote:

The secrets of the world are waiting to be revealed. Travel widely, broaden your mind at every opportunity, and pursue the life of a scholar. Cultivate the spirit of inquiry among the young and be a teacher to all. Seek to recover the lost and/or arcane knowledge of ages past and apply it in the world of today. Try new methods of doing things just for the joy of experimenting. Learn a little of everything, for you never know what might be of use down the road.


So without going to a generic source, we've got established Realmslore saying a particular dwarven deity has an interest in magic. Given that and his portfolios, it's not a stretch to put him as the deity of dwarven wizards.


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