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 Ed's reveal of a continent name Arandron

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
sleyvas Posted - 31 Oct 2021 : 23:50:07
So, yesterday we had a slight reveal from Ed of another continent name via tweet. The relevant points I'll cut out just for discussions sake to quickly get things started. The reason for this thread is essentially "what should we do with it" and "what can we twist with it" and "do we even like it" and "is there a better way to use it" and "do we want to to a significant degree change the data we have in the FR interactive Atlas". Also, what other continent names do we have? Finally, we also get the part where Ed once again complains that TSR made Anchorome into a continent instead of a collection of islands.

So, first off, the relevant points

Velsaertirden was a steel dragon who hatched in a clutch of eggs in Steelspires, a castle built by stone giants for his parents on a bare rock ridge that towered over the busy human port city of Haunvaerune, on the continent of Arandron far to the southwest of Faerûn.

and then we have this in regard to a question about Aranddron's placement showing the scholar's guide to Toril and asking if it's the place directly south of Faerun that's closest to the southern pole.

Rule of thumb: trust no map that has Anchorôme as a continent, or Osse as a big continent.

First things first.... what "continent" names do we know of? Assuming of course that these are all continent names and not "vast regions of a continent". There's
Aurune
Katashaka
Osse
Maztica with a peninsula below it called Lopango
a place above Maztica which Faerunians seem to have named Anchorome after the discovery of Maztica (based on the information in TSR's City of Gold)
Arandron
From Al-Qadim there was also a mysterious "place" called Akota to its west.


Second, obviously continents can have 500 names. Some may be relevant at certain times/eras. Some might be relevant to certain cultures. So, one person's Katashaka or Osse might be called something else my someone else.

So, for instance, what "modern Faerunians" call Anchorome and what "others" called Anchorome might be two separate things due to misunderstandings (kind of like the "story" of how there are human tribes known as Tabaxi in Chult and cat folk known as Tabaxi in Maztica and even other worlds).

I will also add, because someone will say it, "who cares none of its canon, just do what you want"....

So, let's start

"Should we significantly change the layout of the world from that presented in the FR Interactive Atlas?"

My answer to this. No. You might change the layout or shape of small islands. You might add Laerakond to the world rather than "sending it back", since its detailed. My reasoning would be that we have it, and noone's putting out anything better. Until something better comes out, why change it. Most of it is unnamed, so we just need to name things.

"Where is this Arandron?"

Well, in my view, we have two places to choose from. The first is the one near to Nimbral that's directly south of Maztica/Lopango that most of us have called "Katashaka". The second is the one SE of Kara-Tur that people have called "Osse". So, since we're told that "Osse isn't a large continent", then perhaps THAT place is Arandron?

"Why do we believe Osse is a continent?"

I'm throwing this out... what do we have that makes us think Osse couldn't be just a large region on a continent?

There's probably 500 questions this can lead to, and Ed didn't really reveal much of anything (except these dragons in Arandron were possibly extremely long lived).... so at this point, just opening the floor to speculation.

From the recent tweet below to show the whole thread

On Velsaert, the Dragon Sage of Baldur's Gate and the continent of Arandron

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1453869491692228609
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1453872532407398406
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1454564012142862339

Oct 29 2021

@TheBadCatMan

Hi @TheEdVerse! I'm curious about Velsaert, the Dragon Sage of Baldur's Gate quoted in a lot of the Wyrms of the North articles. What's his story? Was he always secretly a steel dragon? Are the other great dragons of the North really just avoiding him?

@TheEdVerse

Velsaertirden was a steel dragon who hatched in a clutch of eggs in Steelspires, a castle built by stone giants for his parents on a bare rock ridge that towered over the busy human port city of Haunvaerune, on the continent of Arandron far to the southwest of Faerûn.

It was his mother Malavauvra’s (Malavauvrantarandra’s) last clutch of eggs, for she was ancient and ailing. Most of Velsaertirden’s siblings were sickly and died soon after hatching, or during their first year of existence. The exceptions were his ruthless, rapacious sister Rauvrahreene (Rauvrahrileenatandrar), and his brother Torthal (Torthalindrarron).

The three wyrmlings soon became dragonets (learning to take human form, and shift with ease between human and dragon form), and reacted in very different ways to the bustling human city their dying mother encouraged them to explore: Torthal was repelled by humans and wanted nothing to do with them, or cities, or crowding of any sort; Rauvrahreene saw them as cattle, pawns, and playthings to be manipulated, devoured, and otherwise expended at will to further her needs to dominate, cow lesser beings, and further her plans; and Velsaert saw them as dangerous but fascinating sources of ongoing entertainment, to be studied and befriended and worked with to see what they’d do and achieve.

Velsaert’s father Phaudron (Phaudrantanthildrar) was a withdrawn, singleminded sort of dragon who traveled widely to explore and find rare substances to use as material components in arcane magics he was devising and endlessly experimenting with.

His passion was magics intended to prolong draconic life and vigor indefinitely, without lichdom or other necromantic means, for most dragons who survive for many years love life and want to cling to it, and seek longevity by various means.

While her father was away on one of his expeditions to gain a rare ingredient, Rauvrahreene found some of his written records of his magical experimentations.

She copied them, went to a lair of her own she’d established elsewhere, and conducted her own spellcastings and experiments, successfully learning how to reverse Phaudron’s spells. Then she returned to Steelspires, and when her father returned, weary and unsuccessful, she covertly cast his reversed spells on him, killing him.

Emboldened, she sought out her weak, slumbering mother, and slew her the same way. The castle was now hers.

However, Torthal unexpectedly returned to Steelspires to consult his father, and found his sister fortifying the place with dragonslaying traps. One of which sorely wounded him (he discovered the traps the hard way). Rauvrahreene gloated openly over the mortally wounded Torthal—and was overheard doing so by Velsaert, making his own return visit to the castle. Outraged that he’d lost his parents, Velsaert attacked, and when the battle was done, Torthal had been blasted apart and Rauvrahreene, wounded, had fled.

Lost in grief, Velsaert decided he never wants to dwell in the castle. He searched it, and used all the magic he knew to subvert and reset the traps so if Rauvrahreene returned, they’d likely harm her. Then Velsaert took human form and went down into Haunvaerune.

Where as soon as he could, he took passage on a farsailing ship, that would call at “strange and distant ports.”

In this case, that meant Sambar, in Lantan (unbeknownst to wider Faerûn, the Lantanna traded their lesser invented devices with many farflung folk, to gain goods rare or hard to find). From there, Velsaert found his way to mainland Faerûn, where he traveled for over five centuries in various human guises, seeing much of different cultures.

As he grew older, he increasingly sided with the aims and doings of the Harpers of Twilight Hall, and joined them while posing as the human ranger Vontur of Zazesspur.

During his sixty-odd years as Vontur, he came across several tantalizing mentions of a dragon who MIGHT be his sister Rauvrahreene, but could never track her down. Velsaert was also increasingly fascinated by the magic-spreading role of the Chosen of Mystra, and watched their doings—and so, in return, was watched by them.

Eventually, Vontur was cornered in a perish-or-call-on-draconic-powers situation, so Vontur “died” and the dragon that slew him and his foes flew away…and a young woman by the name of Shalant Mornwind, hailing from Athkatla, joined the Harpers. An eager volunteer daunted by nothing and avoiding no unpleasant task nor company, she rose in the regard of senior Harpers, and gained an ever-larger role as a trusted and capable adventurer, active all over western Faerûn, until, in an undercover operation in the Sembian city of Selgaunt, she discovered that the secret of the success of the wealthy local Sembian family hight House Morarshar was due to their matriarch, Lady Ambrele, being the human guise of Velsaert’s sister Rauvrahreene.

Velsaert attacked, and in the battle that followed, Morarshar Hall was torn apart, the family and their staff died bloodily, several surrounding buildings were shattered and hurled down, Rauvragrene was maimed and forced to flee to another plane of existence, and Shalant Mornwind “died.”

In truth, Velsaert was aged three centuries by spells cast by Rauvrahreene to try to kill him, and left saddened by the deaths of his Harper adventuring colleagues and the destruction of so much of what had been a luxurious street in downtown Selgaunt.

So he “retired,” becoming a sage in Baldur’s Gate under the name of Imbryn Velsaert (borrowing the name Imbryn from Imbryn Ultal, the captain of the Aelusteen, the ship that had brought him from Haunvaerune to Sambar). Velsaert dwelt above his small shop in the Temples District (a street above the Helm and Cloak inn), quietly selling information and old books related to magic, and becoming a passive observer of all the bustling human activity around him. Noticing the great extent to which various humans were being manipulated by clergies, cults, cabals, and powerful entities like illithids, beholders, and dragons, he increasingly slipped into human guises to travel and investigate the doings and aims of various dragons and dracoliches active in western Faerûn (notably Laerahkralan, a greatwyrm working with yuan-ti and human agents to covertly influence various ruling courts, from towns and villages up to countries, in the Shining South). He located their principal lairs and watched what he could of their activities, befriending the bronze dragon Nymmurh in particular. During the 1360s and 1370s DR, Velsaert gained a reputation as “the” current expert on the lives and times of the dragons of the Sword Coast. The merchant Andlar Verikho of Tharsult dubbed him the “Dragon Sage,” and this nickname stuck.

After the Dracorage, an ashamed and regretful Velsaert wanted nothing further to do with the Harpers, and foresaw that his profession as a sage specializing in dragons was going to bring endless adventurers (Harpers among them) to his door, so he “retired” again, relocating to the Upper City and later the south side of the river, and then dropping out of sight.

Just in time, it seems, for a force of mages and able-to-pass-as-human creatures he suspects was sent by sister, or someone working for her, descended on his lodgings by night to slay him—and when they couldn’t find Velsaert (who was lying on a nearby rooftop, not his own, observing comets in the night sky) settled for slaughtering many neighbours instead.

Velsaert hunted them for a month thereafter, trying to find whoever they reported to, but after he’d fought and slain several of them, they turned to hunt him again, and he decided to simply disappear into a new human guise, under a new name, elsewhere.

So the greatwyrm Velsaert survives to this day—as, presumably, does his sister Rauvrahreene.

@ilikeit_ruf

Mr. Ed I love how you just drop a new (at least new to me) continent on Toril.

Has Arandron been covered anywhere? Where’s it at?

@TheEdVerse

I don't think it's been covered in print, but has been mentioned in several Milwaukee-era GenCon Realms seminars, by me with staff designers and editors on the panel. It's well SW of Faerûn.

@Razzelmire

Would it be this place that is circled? It’s from a official Scholar View of Toril from the 3rd Edition campaign book.

<image of A Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril: https://twitter.com/Razzelmire/status/1454457990514462730/photo/1>

@TheEdVerse

No. That map's rather fanciful. Notice it doesn't specify WHICH Scholar's view? It's more accurate than some maps, yet is still closer to "Dragonnes Be Herre" than reality.

Rule of thumb: trust no map that has Anchorôme as a continent, or Osse as a big continent.[/i]
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Razz Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 19:47:50
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

The rest (Maztica, Kara-Tur, Hordelands) I am much less enthusiastic about, since they not only copy/mimic RW historical cultures but RW historical events and characters as well.




Yeah, this is what I had the most problems with. Like you I'm not so much perturbed with the Mulhorand and Unther thing, but the blatant rip off of how Cordell/Cortez goes to Maztica was hard to swallow... the mongol horde uprising was done a little better, but something just didn't feel right there either. I actually like the idea of Pluma and Hishna magics and some other things in Maztica though.

I'm not sure which RW history you see repeating in Kara-Tur though (other than Wa being very much Feudal Japan and Shou Lung being very much Feudal China, etc....), but at the same time that's probably my weakest lore area in the world. I do know the "dragon wall"/ "great wall of china" thing did feel pretty cheesy.



quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It should also be noted that there is one hell of a difference between something influenced by the real world and something that is a direct copy of something in the real world. Much of the Heartlands area falls into that "idealized medieval-ish Western Europe" category that is practically the default, in fantasy, but no one sweats that one.



As a kid getting into the game, I never question the dominant Euro-style of fantasy gaming. That's the age where you're taught certain things and unless you're wise beyond your age, you don't usually question the source and the bias. It just gets presented as "this is the norm."

Currently, I question it all. If fantasy is going to be influenced by real-world myths/stories/legends/culture, why only European? I would want the rest, as well.

Which was why I dived into Maztica/Zakhara/Kara-Tur/Hordelands so quickly (Although, little did I know back then how awfully Western-fetishized and trope-ish it all is, it's now extremely uncomfortable to me today and WotC ignoring to remaster those regions is very problematic).

There's a YouTube channel I came upon several months ago, I highly recommend everyone check it out, but the channel is called Asians Represent Podcast and there's a Playlist titled "Asians Read Kara-Tur" as well as "Asians Read Al-Qadim." The guy who manages it actually wrote one of the adventures for Candlekeep Mysteries. (as a tangent, it angered me that WotC did NOT let him use the Monks of the Long Death in the adventure, which he believed would have been a much better fit for the adventure, because they had to be written with corebooks in mind only...one of the reasons I can't stand what WotC is doing to the Realms in 5e is the blatant erasure/ignorance of other Realmslore).

But I listened to those videos and...I nearly chucked my Kara-Tur material out the door at the horror of how extremely terribly written they all were Those other sub-settings need a critical rework for sure. Which WotC doesn't want to do, just shove it in a deep, dark corner and forget about it.

It's why I wish Toril was more like Golarion, because Paizo definitely went that route of representing all forms of fantasy (as well as genres of fantasy such as ancient, medieval, rennaisance, horror-themed, steampunk, which annoys me why Lantan gets shafted often, and even sci-fi!) from variously inspired real-world cultures without being a copy of any of them at all and it's well known and popular for it.

Heck, I may as well say it since I've said it to others before; Golarion for Pathfinder is what Toril should have been for D&D.

Well I'll post the link, I recommend people educate themselves on this. It was very enlightening. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbQUmmaVBxqrsat-Zi_ID4qt6jrrw0JL2
Razz Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 19:11:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Mages are incredibly cheap when you are one.





Being a mage doesn't mean that you don't have to spend anything on spell components and casting. It also doesn't mean that you're automatically willing to spend months getting to some unknown place for possibly no return at all.



Sticking to solely humans, they've been around for millenia in Faerun as the dominant force. In all those thousands of years, no groups did the exploring for the sake of the adventure and discovery? For the assumption of a great reward? Many the ambitious believe great risks bring great rewards. Even Columbus assumed they'd reach India going west, it was a risk they all took, but even before Columbus there were people who sailed their prior such as the vikings.

Those clerics of Shaundakul, Selune and Oghma must not be doing a good job promoting their faiths, all of which would be the motivation behind such ventures. Especially Shaundakul.

I'm more willing to believe a story (or stories( that's universal throughout Faerun where there's a great taboo to journeying too far overseas, or through massive terrains (Hordelands, Yehimals, various glaciers).

Except that's not what we get in the overall atmosphere of the world setting. We're always given stories of tons of explorers, adventurers, portal networks practically everywhere (it gives off an impression that Toril is like a mini-Sigil at times) and great magics accomplishing the greatest of feats (right up to toppling the very goddess of Mystra herself), but somehow in those millenia there's still mysteries to the largest of land masses. Personally, I find the fact that Maztica was "discovered" in the 1360s to be ludicrous, it should have been known about many centuries before that.

If the worldview of Faerunians is to be extremely isolationist and exploration beyond known borders is an extremely rare occurence (A.K.A. only player characters of the game would dare such a venture) then I wish the setting did a better job at portraying that. Instead it does the opposite. It greatly encourages it.

It begs the question why WotC not only mislabeled these lands as "Unknown" but then also discourages exploration there entirely through sheer ignorance and invisibility to them. I honestly would have preferred them to delete all those continents, and just keep the actual published ones. Wouldn't that have been a much better, and easier, thing for them to do? The Second Sundering would have been perfect to "shrink" Toril to something much more manageable and far less questionable.
Razz Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 18:45:20
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, just to open up discussion... this fit?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qaeZBkttPV6S0ru1Ed0x0Hw2rEpZC3w8/view?usp=sharing

On Osse, I open up the question again... what do we know of it as a "continent" versus it being "a place on a continent" or even it being "a place in another world that he came here from". I know it was in lady of poison, but I don't remember what all was said, except that it was where Gungari came from. For all we know "Osse" was possibly in Abeir and Gungari came here from there? Or maybe it's in the collection of islands off Zakhara's west coast or the crowded sea in the far south.



I'd still put "Osse" label on it somewhere to be more completionist with the discussion and research. It's widely accepted as Osse, considering it's distance from everything else I doubt it's Thuin or Arandorn at all.

Also why can't we just assume that landmass to the west of Maztica is Laerakond? The shape is pretty similar.
sleyvas Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 13:38:57
While I think Ed's vision would be great, I give as much weight to a lot of the people here, and especially some of the other designers. Ed dribbles his vision out though, so you have to take the reigns and do something with it or nothing will ever get done. That being said, the man is also prolific as hell in detailing minutiae of regions he's already done to death. I know some people here don't seem to like to design as much and more want to catalog what has been already said as well (and lord knows you need that as well, gods bless those who work on the FR wiki). I also find a lot of times too, someone here drops an idea that with a slight "twist" added to it becomes something really inspiring.

On the other stuff mentioned about the regions

Yeah, the portrayal of Helm was definitely dark as well. They were seemingly trying to lambaste him for his role in the ToT at the time, and it felt like they were trying to turn him into a scapegoat. He was doing his role (defending the bifros.... I mean celestial staircase). That being said, Helm as LN can have priests that go evil in the name of bringing "order" to things. What I always felt was kind of interesting is that the portrayal of Qotal was more of a defender of his people than Helm (granted Qotal was also portrayed such that he could fit other entities with his ties to butterflies, jungles, etc...). I had always half wondered if we were going to find out that the arrival of "Helm" and the return of "Qotal" were somehow linked when I first read it (obviously didn't happen and later they linked Qotal and Ubtao).

On Kara-tur
Now that you mention it, I remember the dalai lama thing too, and thinking that was a bit unsettling.... oddly I think if they'd just named it different the jarring nature wouldn't have been so noticeable. I'm not so much upset over Faerunian gods showing up in the east, but it would have been good if they'd showed something of the eastern gods of nature showing up to push against the incursion. That's a point where I think they were trying to write so much that they couldn't sit back, breathe, and go "what would happen next".

I have no problems at all that I can think of with Zakhara (now I may not like an idea here or there or want to tweak something to better tie some tie to Faerun here and there mind you), and I liked the ideas of the Isle of the Necromancer Kings showing up in the Complete Book of Necromancers.

On replacing Kara-tur, Zakhara, and Maztica
I won't say I would welcome them replacing those ENTIRE regions however. The reason why is that they tend to focus on single concept ideas (look at Strixhaven, Ravnica, Theros) when they come out with new lore in 5e. To be fair, it happens to many designers that that's how they design (myself included). However, if we as a collective look at each individual area and what already exists and see the problems and look into tweaking it instead, or using a scalpel to remove certain small parts, I don't think there will be as much of a problem. Granted, that's kind of what set people off with the spellplague, but I don't think people would be upset with these modifications in places like Kara-tur and Maztica (personally fine with them not touching Zakhara unless they just want to advance the timeline). I think it would be better if they posit the following questions with those regions (with "region" being smaller pieces like X country, Y jungle area, Z desert area, etc... not whole continents)

1) Did the region go to Abeir, somewhere else, or stay in Faerun in the spellplague?
2) Did the region go to Abeir, somewhere else, or stay in Faerun in the second sundering?
3) Did the region RETURN from Abeir or somewhere else in the second sundering?
4) If it went to another world, what happened to the population that was there while it was in the other world?
5) If it went to another world, did some other population move into the territory while it was in the other world?

So, like in Maztica/Anchorome there is a HUGE swathe of the region that's a desert with some arable land leading towards the western coast. If we suddenly found out that some portion of Abeir had appeared there and replaced a few of those cities to throw a change to the region, that's fine. Large swathes of it are just empty desert or jungle, so whole societies may have grown up. That being said, I personally like most of what Seethyr's tried to do with the region.

One other thing I would like to see with these outlying regions is the influence of prior empires of Faerun appearing there and either failing or succeeding. For instance, one of the things we had discussed in the past was the idea of Netherese visiting the other continents and trying to make a go of it with their enclaves. Similarly, old batrachi, aearee, sarrukh, spellweaver, giant, draconic, aboleth, mind flayer, beholder, dragonborn, elven, dwarven, orcs, goblinoids, gnolls, tabaxi, centaurs, wemics, halflings, gnomes, exiled fey'ri, etc.... societies might have once held sway OR STILL HOLD SWAY in these parts of the world. One of the things I always noted about Zakhara, for instance, was that it had numerous giant societies which seemingly had no ties to the children of Annam by Othea. So, were they other children of Othea? Interlopers from another world? Natural giants that sprang up on Toril? We have several giant "types" that have come out in the last twenty years that could have an interesting storyline if placed elsewhere in Toril for their origins. For instance, if Eldritch or death giants originated in Katashaka or on Abeir. Abeiran societies might have found footholds and grown there as well (for instance the Eminence of Araunt may have some great undead Empire now that vies with the Shou Emperor and has been raiding the "spirit world" bringing ancestor spirits back to undeath and turning them against the emperor).



deserk Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 11:34:28
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, this is what I had the most problems with. Like you I'm not so much perturbed with the Mulhorand and Unther thing, but the blatant rip off of how Cordell/Cortez goes to Maztica was hard to swallow... the mongol horde uprising was done a little better, but something just didn't feel right there either. I actually like the idea of Pluma and Hishna magics and some other things in Maztica though.

There is some Maztican lore I like, but overall I think it's too RW derivative and therefore doesn't jam well with the rest of the Realms. I like the idea of there being Native American fantasy cultures, but there has to be something unique about them, otherwise why not just play in a historical setting?

And yeah Cordell/Cortez is the obvious sore thumb, but it's also how grossly inappropriate and inexplicable how the church of Helm has operated there (like crusading Christians attack "idolaters"). Helm is a god of guardians and defence, not someone who would tolerate such utterly unwarranted aggression, and not to mention FR has polytheistic faith, so why would they have any particular issues with Maztican gods? Also, Helm is not a particularly worshipped god in Amn, so it's a very strange choice for him to be a patron of this expedition. It would make a lot more sense if Waukeen was behind it (who is a neutral god and popular in Amn), in order to bring wealth and prosperity to Faerun by building new trade routes.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm not sure which RW history you see repeating in Kara-Tur though (other than Wa being very much Feudal Japan and Shou Lung being very much Feudal China, etc....)


Tabot has a Dalai Lama (Ra-Khati has another Dalai Lama). Chaunteans in Wa (rather than Helmites in Maztica) completely mimic the role and history of Christians in Japan. Not to mention every country in Kara-Tur is based on a RW country.

It's not that Kara-Tur and Maztica are bad settings, it's just stylistically they don't fit with the Realms. They've been kind of forcibly latched onto the Realms, and definitely in the case of Kara-Tur since it was originally conceived of as it's own independent setting.

Zakhara I kind of appreciate more being part of the Realms, since it's more based on Arabian Nights myths and folklore rather than based on specific RW Arabic countries or their history. So it feels more like a proper fantasy setting than Maztica and Kara-Tur, in my opinion.

However I am extremely curious what the actual continents that are West, South and East of Faerun are like in Ed's original Forgotten Realms. And to be frank, I would welcome them replacing Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur since they would obviously fit more with the style and tone of the Forgotten Realms setting. What little bits he's said of the Utter East or the continent of Thuin sound quite intriguing.

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm hoping to find out as much as possible about Ed's original and merge the two.

I noted recently that Ed detailed two "kings" of Mulhorand and Unther that fought each other to the near destruction of their empires. I'm intending to use those to people in Raurin in the proto Mulhorand and Unther civilisations that arose before the Mulan people abandoned Raurin and moved west.

Similarly with the Moonshaes, Ed's original had trade cartels warring for control in the region, i tried (rather inexpertly) to weave that into the history of Corwell and Alaron.

Both of those are real good ideas and would help add a lot more flavour to the Old Empires and the Moonshae Isles. I think hybridizing these two visions of the published Old Empires/Moonshaes as well as Ed's vision would be great and help give a more distinct flavour to these regions.
Gary Dallison Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 04:48:01
I'm hoping to find out as much as possible about Ed's original and merge the two.

I noted recently that Ed detailed two "kings" of Mulhorand and Unther that fought each other to the near destruction of their empires. I'm intending to use those to people in Raurin in the proto Mulhorand and Unther civilisations that arose before the Mulan people abandoned Raurin and moved west.

Similarly with the Moonshaes, Ed's original had trade cartels warring for control in the region, i tried (rather inexpertly) to weave that into the history of Corwell and Alaron.

There are still plenty of gaps in the lore that we can retrofit Ed's original ideas into. We just need to know what those original ideas were.
questing gm Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 01:02:43
Would very much like to see a scroll on 'reconstructing' Ed's original Realms...

I'll see what I can dig up from previous Ed tweets...
sleyvas Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 00:53:48
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

The rest (Maztica, Kara-Tur, Hordelands) I am much less enthusiastic about, since they not only copy/mimic RW historical cultures but RW historical events and characters as well.




Yeah, this is what I had the most problems with. Like you I'm not so much perturbed with the Mulhorand and Unther thing, but the blatant rip off of how Cordell/Cortez goes to Maztica was hard to swallow... the mongol horde uprising was done a little better, but something just didn't feel right there either. I actually like the idea of Pluma and Hishna magics and some other things in Maztica though.

I'm not sure which RW history you see repeating in Kara-Tur though (other than Wa being very much Feudal Japan and Shou Lung being very much Feudal China, etc....), but at the same time that's probably my weakest lore area in the world. I do know the "dragon wall"/ "great wall of china" thing did feel pretty cheesy.
sleyvas Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 00:43:54
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

This is a good overview:

https://twitter.com/theedverse/status/1132112465947504641

--Eric



Not really, that covers Mulhorand and Unther, but less so Thay and Chessenta (which my original point was Thay, less concerned with the other three as he's openly noted his distaste for those multiple times as almost real world correlations of Egypt, Mesopotamia and Greece).
Wooly Rupert Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 00:09:54
It should also be noted that there is one hell of a difference between something influenced by the real world and something that is a direct copy of something in the real world. Much of the Heartlands area falls into that "idealized medieval-ish Western Europe" category that is practically the default, in fantasy, but no one sweats that one.
deserk Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 22:34:51
The original Old Empires that Ed conceived of sound interesting, though I have to admit I do like the current one too. I like as well that the Mulan are such an ancient civilization of humans that they have their own pantheon of gods which is separate and distinct from the standard Faerunian pantheon. And out of all the RW inspired places of Toril, I do feel the Old Empires is the one that fits the best with the rest of the setting and has the best lore, along with the Moonshae Isles. But they could certainly use an update (sad we didn't get more books in the 3rd edition era). The rest (Maztica, Kara-Tur, Hordelands) I am much less enthusiastic about, since they not only copy/mimic RW historical cultures but RW historical events and characters as well.

Also another point on RW influences. Ed has used plenty of RW gods (Tyr, Ilmater, Loviatar, Silvanus, etc.) as the basis of his Faerunian pantheon, so I don't see anything in wrong in principle about having some RW influences (i.e. the Mulhorandi pantheon). But of course the notable thing about RW-inspired FR gods is that they have a specific Realmsian character within the setting, and often have divergences from their original source.
ericlboyd Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 20:38:44
This is a good overview:

https://twitter.com/theedverse/status/1132112465947504641

--Eric
sleyvas Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 20:02:14
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

<<<Bear in mind some things, his version of Thay (fire magic focus) was one that resembled in many ways the orient of our world, with "Russia/Slavic" lands above it (Rashemen) and frozen lands above that (Siberia?). He may say he never transposed our world into Toril, but everyone's done it in some form, even unintentionally. He also gave them cannons using an explosive (bombard oil), much like how china had mortars, catapult hurled bombs, firelances, etc..... He made them very lighter of skin as well, gave them a penchant for shaving their heads, etc... which around the time of FR's release was something seen in many depictions of the Asian people. Even their name, Mulan, is from ancient China.>>>

I think this is reaching a bit as an argument.

Also, the words "Mulan and Rashemi" were introduced by Steve Perrin in FR6, not Ed. Ed used the word "Rashemite" in the old gray box, but not "Mulan."

--Eric



Ok, I'll retract the part about Mulan. It's hard to know as an outsider who introduced which pieces (especially in that early lore). We're kind of always told that Ed was handing people stacks of stuff to work from. Still, he did kind of make Thay somewhat asian influenced. I would say that later folks made them less of that, especially after old empires came out, which made them a lot different. Not sure how much of the whole Imaskar/Mulhorand/Unther becoming Thay and Chessenta was baked into Ed's stuff.
ericlboyd Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 15:58:51
<<<Bear in mind some things, his version of Thay (fire magic focus) was one that resembled in many ways the orient of our world, with "Russia/Slavic" lands above it (Rashemen) and frozen lands above that (Siberia?). He may say he never transposed our world into Toril, but everyone's done it in some form, even unintentionally. He also gave them cannons using an explosive (bombard oil), much like how china had mortars, catapult hurled bombs, firelances, etc..... He made them very lighter of skin as well, gave them a penchant for shaving their heads, etc... which around the time of FR's release was something seen in many depictions of the Asian people. Even their name, Mulan, is from ancient China.>>>

I think this is reaching a bit as an argument.

Also, the words "Mulan and Rashemi" were introduced by Steve Perrin in FR6, not Ed. Ed used the word "Rashemite" in the old gray box, but not "Mulan."

--Eric
sleyvas Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 13:44:21
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

I'm sure others have seen these before but I only stumbled on them a few months back. I'm guessing these are the maps Ed is referring to. My eyesight isn't what it used to be and free time is rare but maybe some young sage can coax out a secret that wasn't meant to be revealed.
map
map

Do remember Ed has a lot of tightrope walking to do when he talks publicly about the Realms. There's the obvious NDAs but them there is also trying not to step on other people's work, and not to completely up end home campaigns, the fact that he speaks on these matters at all is actually amazing.

Reading all this an interesting thought came to mind, which I am sure some would hate, but how "cool" would it be if one of the times WotC pushed the reset button we got Ed's original Realms. Gone all the changes added later, Maztica, Kara-Tur, etc. The second Sundering and phasing out of lands would have been a great opportunity. Would have been easy enough to patch them onto Abeir and keep some portals to link them for those who still wanted to use them.



I still can't believe they moved the star mounts in some editions further south. The star mounts only make sense in the deep heart of the forest or it ruins the song directing you to the Hall of Mists! In 3e they have it so far away just to put a dumb "HIGH FOREST" title inside.

Also, the great glacier's south south-west seems to be made of paper layered over the map's original copy. I wonder if beneath that literal paper glacier is literal penciled in secrets that have since become revealed by the retreating glacier in lore but not yet explored by module nor novel....


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

... and being so close to Zakhara and Kara-Tur (both of which have a strong link to the study of elemental magics in the form of wu-jen and elementalists, and Zakhara being devoted to genies) might present some other opportunities to do something there as well (or not).

I know this is referring to those who still wish to use the supplemental continents, but I am curious now that I am reminded of how much elemental culture can *claim* its origin from the djiin creatures of the south-eastern continent of Zakhara. However, if Zakhara was never intended by Ed then it makes me wonder how he would personally answer questions regarding the strong link to elemental magics and culture in specific regions- alien invasion by Calim and Memnon aside. Whenever you look into the origins of language and the cultural spread over the faaaaar southern regions of canon Toril from the west to the old empires then you get a lot of vague elemental and 'Zakharan' vibes without a clear source that I've recalled. There were djiin all over Toril long before the two famous genies showed up in the shining south, but no clear motivation on what they were doing during the formations of native languages and the introduction of alien languages. Before the ice genies of the Giants' city guard and long before the Bedine fought the djiin of Anauroch.
It always feels like the City of Brass is this complete (tyrannical) and timeless civilization that only needs to brush against a primordial planet at any stage of its development and suddenly you have the Primordial Language, Elemental Magics, as well as Society and Economics and Slavery.



Bear in mind some things, his version of Thay (fire magic focus) was one that resembled in many ways the orient of our world, with "Russia/Slavic" lands above it (Rashemen) and frozen lands above that (Siberia?). He may say he never transposed our world into Toril, but everyone's done it in some form, even unintentionally. He also gave them cannons using an explosive (bombard oil), much like how china had mortars, catapult hurled bombs, firelances, etc..... He made them very lighter of skin as well, gave them a penchant for shaving their heads, etc... which around the time of FR's release was something seen in many depictions of the Asian people. Even their name, Mulan, is from ancient China. So, given the focus of China's magical lore on wuxing (which became the wu-jen later) having them focus on fire magic seems a good fit if you're wanting to make an evil society of warmongering slaver wizards.
PattPlays Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 02:56:58
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

I'm sure others have seen these before but I only stumbled on them a few months back. I'm guessing these are the maps Ed is referring to. My eyesight isn't what it used to be and free time is rare but maybe some young sage can coax out a secret that wasn't meant to be revealed.
map
map

Do remember Ed has a lot of tightrope walking to do when he talks publicly about the Realms. There's the obvious NDAs but them there is also trying not to step on other people's work, and not to completely up end home campaigns, the fact that he speaks on these matters at all is actually amazing.

Reading all this an interesting thought came to mind, which I am sure some would hate, but how "cool" would it be if one of the times WotC pushed the reset button we got Ed's original Realms. Gone all the changes added later, Maztica, Kara-Tur, etc. The second Sundering and phasing out of lands would have been a great opportunity. Would have been easy enough to patch them onto Abeir and keep some portals to link them for those who still wanted to use them.



I still can't believe they moved the star mounts in some editions further south. The star mounts only make sense in the deep heart of the forest or it ruins the song directing you to the Hall of Mists! In 3e they have it so far away just to put a dumb "HIGH FOREST" title inside.

Also, the great glacier's south south-west seems to be made of paper layered over the map's original copy. I wonder if beneath that literal paper glacier is literal penciled in secrets that have since become revealed by the retreating glacier in lore but not yet explored by module nor novel....


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

... and being so close to Zakhara and Kara-Tur (both of which have a strong link to the study of elemental magics in the form of wu-jen and elementalists, and Zakhara being devoted to genies) might present some other opportunities to do something there as well (or not).

I know this is referring to those who still wish to use the supplemental continents, but I am curious now that I am reminded of how much elemental culture can *claim* its origin from the djiin creatures of the south-eastern continent of Zakhara. However, if Zakhara was never intended by Ed then it makes me wonder how he would personally answer questions regarding the strong link to elemental magics and culture in specific regions- alien invasion by Calim and Memnon aside. Whenever you look into the origins of language and the cultural spread over the faaaaar southern regions of canon Toril from the west to the old empires then you get a lot of vague elemental and 'Zakharan' vibes without a clear source that I've recalled. There were djiin all over Toril long before the two famous genies showed up in the shining south, but no clear motivation on what they were doing during the formations of native languages and the introduction of alien languages. Before the ice genies of the Giants' city guard and long before the Bedine fought the djiin of Anauroch.
It always feels like the City of Brass is this complete (tyrannical) and timeless civilization that only needs to brush against a primordial planet at any stage of its development and suddenly you have the Primordial Language, Elemental Magics, as well as Society and Economics and Slavery.
Storyteller Hero Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 02:24:22
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


This also means that the Underdark below Laerakond is not your regular Underdark...



Beware the flumphs...they are not as they seem...



Zeromaru X Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 00:35:27
Well, the map Somni drew of their lands in Abeir was described by Farideh as fairly close to Tymanther, with a few differences (like a bottomless Abyss to the south of the Ash Lake equivalent... that is also a lake as well). So we know the equivalents are actual.

As for Tymanchebar, according to "Gontal, Dominions of Nehu" (Dragon 375), Laerakond may have been "ripped of from Abeir" during the Spellplague, unlike the other places, that were just transposed. The cause was that the fortress of Nehusta exploded. As the fortress had chambers way down to the Underdark, basically the Spellplague went into the Underdark. Unlike other places, Tymanchebar fell into Unther like a meteor, because probably was ripped apart from Skelkor during the turmoil.

This also means that the Underdark below Laerakond is not your regular Underdark...
sleyvas Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 19:49:53
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

We have something post second sundering that actually states that they know for certain that Shyr is still in Abeir post second sundering?

Namshita mentions that Gilgeam was about to launch a suicide attack on the city of Shyr (the nation Akanul was part of) when they got teleported in front of the ruins of Unthalass. Which means:

A. The capital of Shyr (the nation) is the equivalent to Unthalass in Abeir.

B. Shyr remained in Abeir.

Since they later go to the Dead Bones Mountains, and the dragonborn in the group recognized the place, this means that things in Abeir remained mostly the same as they remembered and Shyr, the continent, is still there.

Not to mention that the whole thing of the Second Sundering was to restore Abeir and Toril to their former selves. Ao won't be restoring anything if he just toss all in Toril.

As for using stuff... I don't think they want to use the Abeir content. Their idea was to remove all stuff from 4e if possible. Dragonborn remained, but their mechanics and lore is so changed that they can't be considered the 4e dragonborn. Ed insist in using Laerakond, but that is because that is a creation of his that predates 4e (even if it was modified by 4e), but I don't think he cares for stuff he didn't created (like Shyr).

As for usability, I guess you can still use Shyr whether it is in Toril or in Abeir. You just need some portal and voila. And leaving it in Abeir has more interesting features than bringing it to Toril.



A & B not "necessarily" true, as we've seen other places displaced that seem to be not "correspondingly" from the same place on the other world (by that I mean that the Vayemniri weren't in near or direct threat of Karshimis/Akanul and were actually part of Skelkor on Laerakond). It's almost like the displacement happened in portions while the world was spinning, and if not everything comes across at the same time it can come over a little "wonky". This might also explain why some of it "didn't go back".

From FRCS 4e page 212
History DC 25: Centuries before the appearance of dragonbane amber, a particularly able clan of dragonborn slaves rebelled and managed to hold an entire outlying province of Skelkor for itself for nearly two
centuries. The rebels named this province Tymanchebar, and lived free, though they were constantly threatened by flights of dragons. Then the Blue Breath of Change shook the land. When the skies returned to their silver hue, all saw that the heart of Tymanchebar, Djerad Thymar, was gone.


The point on the traversal to Abeir in the novels though, that is a good point, though at the same time... the spellplague and the sundering both didn't necessary happen in an instant. Some of the lands may transfer at different times. We do have notes of the second sundering occurring over like a year's time or so. It still could be very much done that we have Shyr come over and have it displace that continent to the SE of Zakhara (in whole or in part).... if only to start to give it SOMETHING of an idea of what's there. For those that want Osse to be there, it might that the transfer was partial and there's a portion of the continent with Gungari's people striving against the power of Karshimis...... and being so close to Zakhara and Kara-Tur (both of which have a strong link to the study of elemental magics in the form of wu-jen and elementalists, and Zakhara being devoted to genies) might present some other opportunities to do something there as well (or not).

Zeromaru X Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 17:10:55
We have something post second sundering that actually states that they know for certain that Shyr is still in Abeir post second sundering?

Namshita mentions that Gilgeam was about to launch a suicide attack on the city of Shyr (the nation Akanul was part of) when they got teleported in front of the ruins of Unthalass. Which means:

A. The capital of Shyr (the nation) is the equivalent to Unthalass in Abeir.

B. Shyr remained in Abeir.

Since they later go to the Dead Bones Mountains, and the dragonborn in the group recognized the place, this means that things in Abeir remained mostly the same as they remembered and Shyr, the continent, is still there.

Not to mention that the whole thing of the Second Sundering was to restore Abeir and Toril to their former selves. Ao won't be restoring anything if he just toss all in Toril.

As for using stuff... I don't think they want to use the Abeir content. Their idea was to remove all stuff from 4e if possible. Dragonborn remained, but their mechanics and lore is so changed that they can't be considered the 4e dragonborn. Ed insist in using Laerakond, but that is because that is a creation of his that predates 4e (even if it was modified by 4e), but I don't think he cares for stuff he didn't created (like Shyr).

As for usability, I guess you can still use Shyr whether it is in Toril or in Abeir. You just need some portal and voila. And leaving it in Abeir has more interesting features than bringing it to Toril.
sleyvas Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 03:13:55
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


<snip>



I don't think it's necessary to bring Shyr to Toril to have a bigger continent Faerûn, and I also don't think that this is what Ed meant. Going by what Ed said, bringing Shyr to Toril would give us two continents bigger than Faerûn in the same planet. And if we are to stick with the official stuff, then there are official products saying Shyr is on Abeir and stayed there post-SS. That is a blade that must be used both ways (officiality, I mean).

Now, if we are looking for landmasses bigger than Faerûn, Ed has said that there are continents in both poles (not depicted in the Scholar's View map, IIRC). Our big continent must be one of those.





Not necessary, no, just noting that we don't have squat for the place that's there.... so why not use something we do have (which what we have on Shyr is so minimal that it can easily adapt to a large landmass.... and hell, we don't even have to use the whole thing). Anyway, not a driving need, but throwing out the idea to see what people think. But you do say one thing that I have to question (not saying its wrong, but I'd like to hear/see the actual quote). We have something post second sundering that actually states that they know for certain that Shyr is still in Abeir post second sundering?

I say this because all we know is that some lands that had come over disappeared and some lands returned.... but we don't know if the "second sundering" was actually not exchanging other parts of Abeir or not. I know what they said their INTENTS were mind you.... but intents from 5 years back change if something possibly more usable might come along.
Gelcur Posted - 02 Jan 2022 : 02:51:40
If only they had unrolled it a bit further. Bits of the Moonshaes are visible.
Zeromaru X Posted - 02 Jan 2022 : 00:36:59
Well, that is Ed's original map of Faerûn. So, it doesn't help us with the location of the continents beyond it.
Gelcur Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 23:57:09
I'm sure others have seen these before but I only stumbled on them a few months back. I'm guessing these are the maps Ed is referring to. My eyesight isn't what it used to be and free time is rare but maybe some young sage can coax out a secret that wasn't meant to be revealed.
map
map

Do remember Ed has a lot of tightrope walking to do when he talks publicly about the Realms. There's the obvious NDAs but them there is also trying not to step on other people's work, and not to completely up end home campaigns, the fact that he speaks on these matters at all is actually amazing.

Reading all this an interesting thought came to mind, which I am sure some would hate, but how "cool" would it be if one of the times WotC pushed the reset button we got Ed's original Realms. Gone all the changes added later, Maztica, Kara-Tur, etc. The second Sundering and phasing out of lands would have been a great opportunity. Would have been easy enough to patch them onto Abeir and keep some portals to link them for those who still wanted to use them.
Zeromaru X Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 21:07:57
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


<snip>



I don't think it's necessary to bring Shyr to Toril to have a bigger continent Faerûn, and I also don't think that this is what Ed meant. Going by what Ed said, bringing Shyr to Toril would give us two continents bigger than Faerûn in the same planet. And if we are to stick with the official stuff, then there are official products saying Shyr is on Abeir and stayed there post-SS. That is a blade that must be used both ways (officiality, I mean).

Now, if we are looking for landmasses bigger than Faerûn, Ed has said that there are continents in both poles (not depicted in the Scholar's View map, IIRC). Our big continent must be one of those.

Baltas Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 17:54:08
With maps as mentioned by Wooly Rupert, the map used is meant to be theoretical in universe. And historical maps were known to theorize continents. Like before proper discovery of Australia and Antarctica, there was theorized there to be to ballance the continents on the northern hemishpere, the continent of Terra Austalis (South Land).

As seen in the maps in the article, continents are kinda off, with as seen especially with North America (either to big, wrong shape and small, or even connected by land visibly to Asia and Europe by land) and South America, aside from Terra Australis. Or direct links to see them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OrteliusWorldMap.jpeg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gerard_De_Jode,_Universi_Orbis_seu_Terreni_Globi,_1578.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Le_Testu_1556_4th_projection.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercator_World_Map.jpg

As seen on the Mercator World map in the last link, Rumold Mercator placed the nonexistant continent/island of Hyperborea in the North Pole (as theorized earlier by his father, Gerard Mercator). (As does the Ortelius world map show a North Pole based continent/great island.)

California for over 200 years was thought to be, or possibly be an island, not a peninsula.

We have also other phantom islands, like Antillia .

This is why what Ed wrote, doesn't seem really offensive to me, but of course YMMV. I agree he could at least worded it maybe better.
sleyvas Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 17:13:26
My point hasn't been whether that map is accurate to a T, but that it should be a "rough" layout that we can all refer to. Little islands.... whatever. You could plop in another island grouping like the Moonshaes, and I'd probably barely bat an eye. But the BIG places for the OFFICIAL realms should be well known (and by well known, I mean a "recognizable rough shape of the continent... I don't mean mapped interior... I don't mean knowing who lives there... but a name given to the place by the people of Faerun that may differ from that which the residents call it").

I'm also not trying to debate what Ed's home campaign was like, but rather the official things that he's introducing to the realms to try and place where they're at. This new continent would now be considered an official place. We should know where it is, and it should be somewhere on the scholar's guide map unless its a place that's say smaller than Nimbral. It should be on that map because the references for the dragons come from pre-spellplague Wyrms of the North articles. I don't get the idea that it is a small place.... and I do like BadCatMan's placement of it next to the place we've been calling "Katashaka". In my book, that place now officially has a name, and its Arandron. In theory, it's STILL there even after the spellplague and second sundering

Obviously, the spellplague throws a whole kerfluffle in ALL things, because the last map we have predates it, but this continent that's mentioned should predate that, since the lore referenced predates it. To my knowledge, I don't think they did a map for 4e and they definitely haven't for 5e. Throw in that the spellplague replaced Maztica with a place of ROUGHLY the same shape, but missing the attached Lopango peninsula and the attached "Anchorome" above it AND no references to a huge continent the shape of Katashaka near this Laerakond place AND suddenly sent Evermeet to another plane while copying it and displacing it hundreds of miles south.

In short.... the spellplague had a relatively minor effect on Faerun. But it SERIOUSLY changed the lands to its west. How this has affected them over the past century opens a LOT of options for exploration.

Were it not for the rockfire disaster, we could even call into question whether Maztica and Anchorome were even there prior to the Time of Troubles (assuming of course that the rockfire disaster didn't itself involve some planar shenanigans).

But they are making references to Maztica in 5e, and so my take is that "it should be back". The attached continent that was above it should also be back, since there were places on it that were under development (City of Gold, Fort Flame, the site of Balduran's landing and the flying elven ship, etc...). In short, if there was a reference... bring it back.

So, "Laerakond" was in his home campaign instead of Maztica, but it looked different, had different people on it, and may not have even been called Laerakond (as there's some reference to the name having come possibly from these forums). Doesn't matter. The official realms says it came from Abeir. SHOULD IT BE SENT BACK POST SECOND SUNDERING? As I've said several times before... why throw something away that you can use.

One thing that some of this discussion has brought up though that might be worth exploring..... making some bullets to make discussing that easirer to focus on.

1) Ed obviously wants Laerakond "IN" the realms. So does anyone that I've seen respond (I don't know anywone that's said OMG we have to send that place away).

2) At the same time, he's also alluding that there should be a "continent" that's bigger than Faerun in the official realms. This may have been true pre-spellplague, or it might only be true post-spellplague OR post second sundering. But what to do with it?

3) What if we take Shyr FROM Abeir.... maybe it happened post second sundering? We "know" that some of the places on Toril and some of the places on Abeir were roughly of the same shape (i.e. Maztica and Laerakond are roughly the same shape and size.... and there was a copy of Evermeet that came from SOMEWHERE). What if we take that "supercontinent" that was southeast of Zakhara (yeah, the place that's bigger than Faerun).... and replace it WHOLE OR IN PART..... with Shyr from Abeir? Then we have this "drag" Laerakond from its position westward towards Shyr.

4) As "Laerakond" is "dragged" westward..... the copy of Evermeet is sent back to Abeir? This drags the "Torilian" Evermeet back to Toril?

I mention this concept because it might prove an interesting storyline in which you could bring lots of Abeiran creatures to Toril. You could bring more of the Eminence of Araunt to Toril with a hundred years of change. You could introduce large numbers of dragonborn who perhaps fled to Shyr. You could introduce Karshimis as a tyrant lord who might give a god like Bane or Gilgeam a run for his money (possibly even posing as Bane's "mortal" form that we've heard that's roaming the world recently?). You would have at least SOME inkling of what to do with that continent east of Zakhara / SE of Kara-Tur. Finally.... where is the primordial being known as Ubtao/Qotal? Well, maybe he's being held captive by another primordial that he once betrayed?

For that matter... what really do we know of Karshimis? I know that I personally automatically assume that he looks like a humanoid, like some titan or giant. But honestly, for all we know he could be a gigantic sauroid/dinosaur, a great snake, a giant multiheaded dragon, some batrachi like overlord, or any number of creatures for all we know. He could even be "Zaltec" for all we know and the whole Qotal / Zaltec coming back to "the True World" could take on a lot of connotations.
sleyvas Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 15:33:23
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-This quote is absolutely George Lucasing it. "Sorry. It might be a nice world to visit, but it's not the Realms." Also, "...incomplete at best." and a few others.

-I starting losing all respect for him when he started demeaning the other contributors to Star Wars by implying that books, comics, video games, they were lesser products than his movies and not the "real" Star Wars (ironically, it was these 'secondary' products that breathed life back into Star Wars in the late-80s/early-90s).

-If Ed was specifically talking about his own game, or his original notes, in the context of that, okay cool. But I don't like the diminishing other people's work. It doesn't matter if it's another well known author or some nameless graphic designer, that's the official map; that's what the world looks like (for now, until the next retcon lol).



I gotta say, what you're saying here.... its not wrong. I like Ed's work. It's great. But rather than just telling someone that their drawing is wrong... since HE introduced the place, and its obviously going to raise THIS question.... give the guy a bone and make some kind of drawing. Don't just pshaw their work, tell them they're clueless, and that "you know the truth". The cat and mouse game is fun for a while, but it grows old. If you're going to introduce a new continent and want it to be a part of the official realms, go to the effort of giving us at least a ROUGH idea of size and shape and location (and not in some vague textual way that you can naysay forever).
Wooly Rupert Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 04:56:25
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-This quote is absolutely George Lucasing it. "Sorry. It might be a nice world to visit, but it's not the Realms." Also, "...incomplete at best." and a few others.

-I starting losing all respect for him when he started demeaning the other contributors to Star Wars by implying that books, comics, video games, they were lesser products than his movies and not the "real" Star Wars (ironically, it was these 'secondary' products that breathed life back into Star Wars in the late-80s/early-90s).

-If Ed was specifically talking about his own game, or his original notes, in the context of that, okay cool. But I don't like the diminishing other people's work. It doesn't matter if it's another well known author or some nameless graphic designer, that's the official map; that's what the world looks like (for now, until the next retcon lol).



The book where the map appears says it's not accurate -- so why is it an issue for Ed to say it's not right?

Again, the book calls it a "a scholar's view of Abeir-Toril" -- not an accurate map or an explorer's map, but something a scholar came up with, and then says "Even the wisest scholars of Candlekeep know only a little of what lies beyond the realms of Faerûn." (Page 230, 3E FRCS)
Lord Karsus Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 04:33:23
-This quote is absolutely George Lucasing it. "Sorry. It might be a nice world to visit, but it's not the Realms." Also, "...incomplete at best." and a few others.

-I starting losing all respect for him when he started demeaning the other contributors to Star Wars by implying that books, comics, video games, they were lesser products than his movies and not the "real" Star Wars (ironically, it was these 'secondary' products that breathed life back into Star Wars in the late-80s/early-90s).

-If Ed was specifically talking about his own game, or his original notes, in the context of that, okay cool. But I don't like the diminishing other people's work. It doesn't matter if it's another well known author or some nameless graphic designer, that's the official map; that's what the world looks like (for now, until the next retcon lol).

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