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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Erikor Posted - 13 Aug 2021 : 02:32:27
SPOILERS from the ending of Starlight Enclave.

How did Catti-brie call Guen when she couldn't speak? I mean, maybe she called her before but even so how could Guen teleport and with another person? Did I miss something?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Baltas Posted - 26 Mar 2022 : 23:18:29
Very interesting. And indeed, the Illithid are capable of changing history - aside from their (possible) backstory as time travelers, with the Overmind the Engine Consumate and an Ether Gap, they planned to substitute the current multiverse, for a one were their empire never fallen (and expanded to control at least a vast part of it), as detailed in the "Dawn of the Overmind" adventure. If on a much lesser scale, and certainly different methods, if still connected to psionics.
RK Posted - 26 Mar 2022 : 22:36:29
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by RK
As for the new Drow history, I took that as Kimmuriel's ultimate revenge for the destruction of his family. Aided by the Mind Flayers, it's definitely possible. It explains his earlier capture (Timeless?), and the fact that nothing was said of his escape...because he was released. He's running a long con with the aid of the most powerful group of beings in Faerun, and given his history, no one sees it coming save maybe Jarlaxle. And Lolth. But she likely enjoys the whole thing.



Wait, is there some suggestion in Starlight Enclave the history/past actually was in-universe changed? And that someone or something done it intentionally? Or is this just your theory?



At the end of Relentless, after Yvonnel revealed this revised history of Menzoberranzan and departed with Quenthel, Jarlaxle spat out several theories, the main one hinged on Kimmuriel, in concert with the Mind Flayer enclave, conjuring this new history.

Personally, I think/hope that Kimmuriel is just out for revenge, and to do as much damage to the Lolthian drow as possible. And he is in much better standing with the Mind Flayers than anyone else in the books.

These are the same Mind Flayers who were able to enact a kinetic barrier sufficient for Drizzt to destroy Demogorgon with one strike. If they could execute the Kineticist discipline to that extent, what could they do with Telepathy?

Mass delusion? Not necessary, because they only needed to place the delusion in Kimmuriel's mind. I believe without evidence that Yvonnel and Quenthel found it while scrying him.
Baltas Posted - 26 Mar 2022 : 18:03:49
quote:
Originally posted by RK
As for the new Drow history, I took that as Kimmuriel's ultimate revenge for the destruction of his family. Aided by the Mind Flayers, it's definitely possible. It explains his earlier capture (Timeless?), and the fact that nothing was said of his escape...because he was released. He's running a long con with the aid of the most powerful group of beings in Faerun, and given his history, no one sees it coming save maybe Jarlaxle. And Lolth. But she likely enjoys the whole thing.



Wait, is there some suggestion in Starlight Enclave the history/past actually was in-universe changed? And that someone or something done it intentionally? Or is this just your theory?
RK Posted - 26 Mar 2022 : 04:24:39
Guenwhyvar has teleported with people in the past. She did so with Regis in the Crystal Shard.

Catti-Brie stayed because because sending Azudonna (?) to Penelope opens the door for others to learn about the Avendrow. Pretty slick.

As for the new Drow history, I took that as Kimmuriel's ultimate revenge for the destruction of his family. Aided by the Mind Flayers, it's definitely possible. It explains his earlier capture (Timeless?), and the fact that nothing was said of his escape...because he was released. He's running a long con with the aid of the most powerful group of beings in Faerun, and given his history, no one sees it coming save maybe Jarlaxle. And Lolth. But she likely enjoys the whole thing.
Irennan Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 23:22:15
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

If WoTC really meant what they wrote about the drow "redemption" in the LP series, shouldn't Drizzt have been forcibly changed into a brown skinned surface elf with his darkvision wiped away?

Yes, I deliberately put "redemption" in quotes.



They already admitted that the goal of that series was to make Drizzt the most special, it didn't have any narrative goal beyond getting rid of any non-Lolth drow, and it showed.

It's not for nothing that it was retconned into oblivion.
Delnyn Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 12:49:26
If WoTC really meant what they wrote about the drow "redemption" in the LP series, shouldn't Drizzt have been forcibly changed into a brown skinned surface elf with his darkvision wiped away?

Yes, I deliberately put "redemption" in quotes.
Razz Posted - 07 Jan 2022 : 12:56:42
Pretty sure WotC made it clear recently that D&D lore/setting lore doesn’t even matter anymore. It’s become a complete free-for-all mess.
sno4wy Posted - 13 Dec 2021 : 00:36:07
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
But everything I have heard from other authors about working with him seems to indicate that he's easy to get along with and accommodating. They always seem very gracious towards him. I don't think I have ever heard of any authors beside Mark Anthony having any conflicts with him (over the unpublished 'Shores of Dusk' novel). I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the Salvatore who seems to be WoTC's chief and eager instrument in this recent slew of retcons, busy at work overwriting basically all the contributions of those authors who always so graciously thanked him in the acknowledgements of their own sourcebooks and novels.



I think it's also important to consider when these collaborations occurred. Imo, it's no coincidence that RAS's earlier stuff is much better, especially than his more recent stuff. Many have said that he used to be more humble and open-minded back then, before his books were marketed enough to get him NYT Bestseller status. I feel like with each new book he puts out, which have been worse and worse, he still expects the same kind of reception as before, while putting in less effort, care, and respect. It reeks of entitlement, tbh, something that the earlier books did not.
Irennan Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 10:06:59
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

Possible but unknowable I think. He certainly has some strong opinions on how the drow should be handled, and some of the stuff he's written, particularly more recently in the 5e era comes off (to me) as a bit...possessive-like he's trying to reassert sole creative control over the drow or something.


A bit? He outright stated "I created the FR drow" in an interview, without even throwing a mention to people like Ed, or Elaine, or Eric Boyd.

quote:
But everything I have heard from other authors about working with him seems to indicate that he's easy to get along with and accommodating. They always seem very gracious towards him. I don't think I have ever heard of any authors beside Mark Anthony having any conflicts with him (over the unpublished 'Shores of Dusk' novel). I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the Salvatore who seems to be WoTC's chief and eager instrument in this recent slew of retcons, busy at work overwriting basically all the contributions of those authors who always so graciously thanked him in the acknowledgements of their own sourcebooks and novels.


There could be a lot of reasons for that. Maybe RAS is indeed accomodating when working with other authors, as long as his turf doesn't get touched. However, I don't see any contradiction between those statements and RAS wanting to appropriate the drow, like he's currently doing.

People can act different in different situations, and as a writer should know, there's the masks and the self that each and every of us has, and even the self can be contradictory--often due to flawed beliefs that we hold. That's not a bad thing, it's just how humans act: we're different when we don't have power/we're subject to other people's judgment and its consequence, than we are when we hold some kind of power, or we're not subject to consequences. Our "domesticated brains" are always looking for changes in the social environment to determine which situation we're in, an if there are opportunities to gain "power" (not necessarily--and most often not--in the literal sense). This means that we can be different people in different situations. At the moment, RAS was given free reign over the drow as a whole, and we're seeing how he acts when that happens.

But speaking of RAS and contradictions, first, after having spent 30 years pushing the Drizzt exceptionalism and shoving aside any good drow that he didn't create, he now emerges stating that making whole civilizations of good drow has always been his plan (yeah, he said that), that there are things with the current drow that he could never stand--the very same things that he caused, btw--which already throws shade on other creators, and that he will now change.

Then, in the same interview, he says that he created the FR drow, which begs the question: "if you had this awesome plan to add civilizations since forever, and if you created the FR drow--which he didn't--why did you create them like that? Why didn't any hint of these civilizations show up anywhere in over 30 years?"

Then, in another interview he says that he wasn't aware of anything, as in he was oblivious to racist tropes, because it was a different time, and now he wants to change things. Which is already in contradiction with all he said in the other interviews.

The dude's just trying to build a persona, but he's all over the place.

quote:
When 5th edition was coming out, I recall something about RA Salvatore and Greenwood having a 'plan' to fix the realms.


It reeks of PR/marketing stunt bullcrap to get old fans back on board. Like the story about RAS wiping Ed's tears that came around with that statement. Just... Lol.

quote:

But it doesn't look good, and a lot of stuff he says in interviews doesn't help.



His actions too. Actions are all that matter.
Irennan Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 09:40:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

We have to think about who WotC is. I doubt the suits get beyond stuff like "Drizzt is our best horse, put him at the forefront". My understanding is that there was a team made up of designers and editors tasked with the 4e transition, they were given a goal (example: simplify/make more accessible), and they decided on stuff according to various criteria (which included, but likely were not limited to, their bias). Taking Brian James' and Eric Menge's experience with the 4e Menzo book and WotC's reaction to their attempt to include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in it, I'd say that the editors (who can also happen to be authors of other books) are tasked with making this sort of decision.
As for Smedman, she certainly wasn't the one behind it, but she really did go all out on the racial purity stuff, as well as on the disparaging Eilistraee at every opportunity stuff.

quote:
At some point in the process they had to know what was going into those books and decided they were OK with it.


Exactly. I mean, if something ends up in a book, which has 3467438567438 revision phases, more than one people made the deliberate choice of letting that thing end up in the book, after having had a plethora of opportunities to analyze it. Ignorance is never an excuse, but in this case it is even less, due to how painfully obvious the ickyness of the whole matter was.



But here's the thing: It's only painfully obvious if someone is willing to see it. There's a lot of stuff we consider painfully obvious now that entire generations before us were utterly blind to. Just pick any era of history for any portion of the world and you'll see plenty of examples.

A lot of people are simply clueless about what happens outside of their tribe, and it just doesn't occur to them that not everyone thinks the same way as them, or that not everyone has the same background as them. And that kind of blindness leads to "I don't see any issue with this, so it's all good."

Yes, it's ignorance, and no, I'm not letting them slide for it. I'm just saying I've seen way too much of this kind of thing, in a lot of places and in many different fields, to think that it's any kind of malicious.

So I am disagreeing with the sentiment that WotC designers knew this stuff was offensive and didn't care. I believe they were just too isolated in their own little bubbles to realize there could possibly be any issues there.

Unless I see something more concrete than "how could they not know?" then I'm sticking with ignorance, incompetence, or both.



I don't mean deliberate as in "yeah, we're totally going to spit in the face of people who were discriminated against", but as in "it does what we want, so we don't care about the rest".

As for painfully obvious, well, I mean, it was 2008, and they literally went full "these good drow can't be accepted unless they change their race". Like, they stated it in the book. The "unwilling and to be cast down" line, the thing with Corellon rejecting them until they had the race that he liked, the forceful race change as a "reward" for not being "evil". The being grabbed by a god that they never worshipped, thus forcing a religion on them. This isn't something subtle, it's very "in your face".

It isn't something that happened to be there as a consequence of something else, it's the main point that the ending of the story makes: race-changed drow=acceptable; non race-changed drow=unwilling and to be cast down (even those who weren't born yet at the time). If an editor with decades of experience like Athans isn't willing to see this, then he doesn't care, he's making that choice, and that's deliberate.

And if thise whole matter happened to be there as a consequence of the wanting to get people to dislike Eilistraee by associating icky stuff to her, or to make Drizzt more special by making the followers of Eilistraee no longer drow, well, they went with the whole "race as reward AND requirement" thing for that. It tells you "it's bad, but it gets the thing done, so it's okay to us".

They even doubled down on this in 4e core, as they have an option for drow that rewards them with a race change for being good. It also assumes that all drow need to redeem, to do something to prove themselves, even those born outside Lolthite society.
TKU Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 05:45:26
Possible but unknowable I think. He certainly has some strong opinions on how the drow should be handled, and some of the stuff he's written, particularly more recently in the 5e era comes off (to me) as a bit...possessive-like he's trying to reassert sole creative control over the drow or something. But everything I have heard from other authors about working with him seems to indicate that he's easy to get along with and accommodating. They always seem very gracious towards him. I don't think I have ever heard of any authors beside Mark Anthony having any conflicts with him (over the unpublished 'Shores of Dusk' novel). I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the Salvatore who seems to be WoTC's chief and eager instrument in this recent slew of retcons, busy at work overwriting basically all the contributions of those authors who always so graciously thanked him in the acknowledgements of their own sourcebooks and novels.

When 5th edition was coming out, I recall something about RA Salvatore and Greenwood having a 'plan' to fix the realms. As of late ever since the whole 'Udadrow/Aevendrow/Lorendrow' reveal I have been wondering what exactly his plan has been, considering the focus of his novels this edition.

But frustratingly, there's just not a lot to go on, so one can have suspicions, but short of Salvatore coming in here to set the record straight on everything, I'm not sure what could dissipate a lot of the bad feelings etc around recent developments.

But it doesn't look good, and a lot of stuff he says in interviews doesn't help.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 03:58:13
I do find it plausible that they were catering, there, because of the character. Whether it was an author's demand or desire or if WotC just decided on their own that they were going to go all in on making Lord Ginsu special, that I can't say. There's a lot of plausible scenarios there, and I've not enough proof to lean towards any one of them.
sno4wy Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 03:14:04
Alrighty so, I'm obviously very jaded and cynical, but what if WotC's whole anti-Eilistraee/other good drow stance is because they need to cater to RAS? Granted, I don't know the company that well, but what I have personally seen is despite the people who claim that RAS is thick-skinned and an all around "good guy", I've encountered very few people as thin-skinned, privileged, presumptuous, and lazy about researching as he is, as far as authors are concerned anyway. Given how he's always erasing Eilistraee's existence, literally only mentioning her to throw shade her way, is it possible that all of this really just boils down to WotC trying to keep their cash cow happy so that they can keep milking him?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 01:32:30
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

We have to think about who WotC is. I doubt the suits get beyond stuff like "Drizzt is our best horse, put him at the forefront". My understanding is that there was a team made up of designers and editors tasked with the 4e transition, they were given a goal (example: simplify/make more accessible), and they decided on stuff according to various criteria (which included, but likely were not limited to, their bias). Taking Brian James' and Eric Menge's experience with the 4e Menzo book and WotC's reaction to their attempt to include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in it, I'd say that the editors (who can also happen to be authors of other books) are tasked with making this sort of decision.
As for Smedman, she certainly wasn't the one behind it, but she really did go all out on the racial purity stuff, as well as on the disparaging Eilistraee at every opportunity stuff.

quote:
At some point in the process they had to know what was going into those books and decided they were OK with it.


Exactly. I mean, if something ends up in a book, which has 3467438567438 revision phases, more than one people made the deliberate choice of letting that thing end up in the book, after having had a plethora of opportunities to analyze it. Ignorance is never an excuse, but in this case it is even less, due to how painfully obvious the ickyness of the whole matter was.



But here's the thing: It's only painfully obvious if someone is willing to see it. There's a lot of stuff we consider painfully obvious now that entire generations before us were utterly blind to. Just pick any era of history for any portion of the world and you'll see plenty of examples.

A lot of people are simply clueless about what happens outside of their tribe, and it just doesn't occur to them that not everyone thinks the same way as them, or that not everyone has the same background as them. And that kind of blindness leads to "I don't see any issue with this, so it's all good."

Yes, it's ignorance, and no, I'm not letting them slide for it. I'm just saying I've seen way too much of this kind of thing, in a lot of places and in many different fields, to think that it's any kind of malicious.

So I am disagreeing with the sentiment that WotC designers knew this stuff was offensive and didn't care. I believe they were just too isolated in their own little bubbles to realize there could possibly be any issues there.

Unless I see something more concrete than "how could they not know?" then I'm sticking with ignorance, incompetence, or both.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 01:15:23
quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

They didn't quite think this through, did they?



Congratulations, you've just summed up WotC for the last several years.
Irennan Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 00:48:43
We have to think about who WotC is. I doubt the suits get beyond stuff like "Drizzt is our best horse, put him at the forefront". My understanding is that there was a team made up of designers and editors tasked with the 4e transition, they were given a goal (example: simplify/make more accessible), and they decided on stuff according to various criteria (which included, but likely were not limited to, their bias). Taking Brian James' and Eric Menge's experience with the 4e Menzo book and WotC's reaction to their attempt to include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in it, I'd say that the editors (who can also happen to be authors of other books) are tasked with making this sort of decision.
As for Smedman, she certainly wasn't the one behind it, but she really did go all out on the racial purity stuff, as well as on the disparaging Eilistraee at every opportunity stuff.

quote:
At some point in the process they had to know what was going into those books and decided they were OK with it.


Exactly. I mean, if something ends up in a book, which has 3467438567438 revision phases, more than one people made the deliberate choice of letting that thing end up in the book, after having had a plethora of opportunities to analyze it. Ignorance is never an excuse, but in this case it is even less, due to how painfully obvious the ickyness of the whole matter was.
TKU Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 00:29:34
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
*snip*



Yeah, pretty much my point. Ignorance as an excuse only goes so far. And after a point my ability to give the benefit of the doubt runs out.

In regards to the wotsq/lp stuff, I think it has a lot of wotc's fingerprints on it...in regards to the series in question you can pretty much draw a straight line from War of the Spider Queen to Lady Penitent to Empyrean Odyssey to the Spellplague....I can't not believe that WoTC had their eye (and more) involved heavily in that progression of novels.

I think it would be too easy to dismiss it as an author pitching a series "Hey, I wanna kill off the Dark Seldarine, is that OK?" and WoTC letting them do whatever with little to no oversight and just nobody stopping to think about the implications until after it hit the shelves and it was too late, but it seems like WoTC was elbow deep in a lot of the specifics of those books. At some point in the process they had to know what was going into those books and decided they were OK with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

I didn't know that the transformed drow lost their darkvision. But my thoughts when I read the book was like what if it happened to a matron mother, or a first born daughter or a high priestess at Arach-Tinilith. They didn't quite think this through, did they?



I think the transformed drow would be likely to be genocided immediately regardless of their faith. Lolth's faithful tend to be a pretty intolerant bunch, and their society encourages taking advantage of the weaknesses of others. You'd probably see a lot of those transformed drow dragged to altars and sacrificed over the coming days as everyone else turned on them. Lots of drow eager to prove their own faith by purging those they deemed to no longer be 'true drow'.

So yeah, Eilistraee's 'selfless sacrifice' would have logically kicked off a massive genocide, which doesn't exactly line up with her goals as normally presented.
Erikor Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 23:32:13
I didn't know that the transformed drow lost their darkvision. But my thoughts when I read the book was like what if it happened to a matron mother, or a first born daughter or a high priestess at Arach-Tinilith. They didn't quite think this through, did they?
Irennan Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 22:50:44
I meant something further than that. If your line of thought is "Whatever makes money, do it", then the presence of "racial purity" bullcrap in your stuff is deliberate, in the sense that you made the choice of not giving a flying about what ends up in your material, including stuff that anyone with experience in publishing/writing that wasn't hit by a stroke at some point in their life, would immediately recognize as tone deaf (to use an euphemism, that is).

Like, even if your motivation is "eh, it makes money", an editor like Athans will certainly notice the implication of that stuff--it's his job, and he was dealing with a trivial case, and I really doubt that the money-making part consisted of the racial purity bit. So, why not remove it, other than lack of care (or--worse, but I doubt it--approval of that stuff)? That's as deliberate as you get.
Vice-versa, if your line of thought is "eh, it makes money, so put it in regardless", then it's obviously deliberate.

There's really no way around this being deliberate, because a choice was made in any case--either to not care/be ignorant, or to still put that stuff in because they thought it would make money.

-------------------

If I had to give my personal opinion, since we know that they wanted to make Drizzt (and the PCs) the only real, super special, good drow (to sell more, because of preference, or both--whatever you have), maybe removing the drow pantheon wasn't enough to them. They had to get rid of the followers of Eilistraee as good drow too, and they went like "hey, what if we make the followers of Eilistraee no longer drow?"
They then proceeded to discard everything about Eilistraee's goal and relationship with her people in favor of a quite disgusting asspull.

Even then, the racial purity tones were clear, as in the books we see the Kiira ancestor thingy being all "it sucks to be drow, so you'll all be turned into brown elves" to Q'arlynd. Also Corellon accepting followers of Eilistraee in Arvandor *only* after their race was forcefully changed (because "ew, drow"), and labeling all the remaining drow as "unwilling and to be cast down" a priori. It's not that they didn't realize it, because they even outright *said* it in the books. You don't get more deliberate than this--they had the obvious implications slammed into their faces, and they still went on with this kind of joke.

Another possibility that I can see, if rather farfetched, is that since they were trying very hard to make Eilistraee look like she isn't really good, they thought that attaching this racial stuff to her would be the surefire way to make people think that Drizzt had been the only *real* good drow all along, while Eilistraee is just a hypocrite. This would be deliberate too.
TKU Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 20:16:36
"Whatever makes money, do it" would explain a lot of my problems with WoTSQ. I seem to remember from one of those Ed Greenwood podcasts him mentioning that (not clear if it was for a specific book or as a general policy) they told him he had to kill someone off every X number of pages, because I guess they felt that D&D had to be near constant combat to keep the reader's attention. Which is rather stupid IMO but the sort of design-by-committee sort of attitude that I can see resulting in a lot of the 'rough edges' in WotSQ.

Though I have to agree with Irennan to an extent, some of that stuff I think can't be explained away with the assumption that whoever was in charge 'didn't understand. I think after a certain point it becomes clear that it becomes more complex than that. The personal preferences of various people in charge or of writers themselves can be pointed to or at least inferred. Someone at the end of the day had to be aware of what Smedman was putting into the series, if they weren't directly involved as the one to give her marching orders to begin with-and I do wonder about that, particularly with the 5th edition stuff starting to sound familiar with the idea of making visibly (mechanically?) distinct subraces of good and evil drow. (Baldur's Gate III and the Dark Alliance 2 both having separate ideas of accomplishing this concurrent with the whole Udadrow/Aevendrow/Lorendrow reveal)
Irennan Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 18:45:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I'm not saying that was deliberate; I think a lot of it was simple ignorance. When the bulk of the audience fits into one category, and the designers themselves fit into the same category, it becomes really easy to not only focus on just that one category but to forget other categories even exist.



If you're ignorant about this stuff in 2008, then you're making the choice of being ignorant. In that sense, it's indeed deliberate.

If you don't stop and think about the implications of what you're writing (because it's not only about minorities, it's about sending a sh*tty message to everyone), you're choosing to not care, so it's deliberate in the same sense. I'd also say that if you're a writer, knowing stuff is integral part of your job--unless you want to be a worthless writer and not know what you write. In that case, it's still a choice.

Ignorance (in this age) or lack of care are choices too. Making money at the expense of everything else is a deliberate stance as well.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 18:41:17
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

I don't know the exact details since I never got around to reading this series after I got a bit burned out on the conclusion to the 'Silence of Lolth' stuff in WoTSQ & this series seemed like it was a continuation of the stuff that I didn't like about that series as it went on but ramped up to 11....so I'm not 100% sure on a lot of the details, but out of curiosity, the transformation hit Lolth-worshiping Miyeritari drow as well?

I mean, the whole thing already makes me a bit queasy, with what I have gathered about it, what with the transformation being non-consensual, and the association with 'blood purity' as being a requirement for redemption, and the hammering home of the uncomfortable 'Mark of Ham' stuff and linking redemption to skin lightening**...ugh. But the notion that Lolth-worshipping Miyeritari drow might also be converted adds another layer of ick. Forcibly claiming dominion over people who don't even worship you (and infact despise you) and changing them physically against their will is something her *mother* would do and if that's how it played out...feels very evil to me and out of character IMO.

**What really bugs me about this particular racial supremacist stuff being presented positively here is that a form of it was already present in the setting within the Vhaerunian church as part of their creepy quasi-quiverfull/eugenics movement. And it was unequivocally and unmistakably presented as an evil thing. So I find it incredibly hard to believe (particularly since Vhaeraun was a part of that series) that nobody in the entire process was unaware what was going into the novel series. Someone should have called a meeting or something, brought it up, and stamped it out long before it got printed, much less made it into a culminating part of a three-part novel series.



I would say that no one at WotC cared. WotC -- and TSR before them -- has a long history of insensitive things. And I'm not saying that was deliberate; I think a lot of it was simple ignorance. When the bulk of the audience fits into one category, and the designers themselves fit into the same category, it becomes really easy to not only focus on just that one category but to forget other categories even exist.

WotC has also gotten out of the mindset of "let's make money by developing a setting" and into the mindset of "Whatever makes money, do it." And when the focus is heavily on the bottom line, that makes other considerations even less important.

Between these two things, you wind up with exactly the material that wound up in these books.

Personally, I think the entire point of the War of the Spider Queen and the Lady Penitent stuff was to just sell more books. Even changing the drow and their pantheon was just to make that one character even more special, so they could sell more of him, too.

Among other things, I think the rough edges between the War of the Spider Queen books (like character personalities changing from book to book) is a reflection of the "just get it out there and sell it" mentality. I firmly believe that no one at WotC even read all the books together before publishing them, because a good editor could have smoothed out a lot of those rough transitions and made the books flow into each other much better.
Irennan Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 18:36:48
quote:
changing them physically against their will is something her *mother* would do and if that's how it played out...feels very evil to me and out of character IMO.


It doesn't just feel out of character, it undeniably is. In Demihuman Deities it's explicitly said that Eilistraee strives to never force a choice on the drow. She works to empower them to find fulfilment and joy, and Ed said that she owes to the concepts of artist and mother, who teaches the drow how to thrive in an environment that has become hostile to them. We also know that Eilistraee chose to be drow herself and has never even thought about changing their race, so she could never believe that idiocy about race (and she would never condemn the vast majority of drow to be considered "unwilling and to be cast down" to force a skin color change on a handful of people).

Erik Scott de Bie also said that Wizards considered getting people to dislike Eilistraee a win back then, and we know that the series is chock full of stuff that snipes Eilistraee's lore to turn it upside down in the worst way possible (like having her followers execute defenseless drow for no reason). Finally, Perkins said that the series had the goal to make Drizzt more special. So yeah, it's plain as the sun that the series was meant to smear Eilistraee, and there's a reason why WotC refuses to even acknowledge that series--it would ruin their reputation.
TKU Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 18:06:15
I don't know the exact details since I never got around to reading this series after I got a bit burned out on the conclusion to the 'Silence of Lolth' stuff in WoTSQ & this series seemed like it was a continuation of the stuff that I didn't like about that series as it went on but ramped up to 11....so I'm not 100% sure on a lot of the details, but out of curiosity, the transformation hit Lolth-worshiping Miyeritari drow as well?

I mean, the whole thing already makes me a bit queasy, with what I have gathered about it, what with the transformation being non-consensual, and the association with 'blood purity' as being a requirement for redemption, and the hammering home of the uncomfortable 'Mark of Ham' stuff and linking redemption to skin lightening**...ugh. But the notion that Lolth-worshipping Miyeritari drow might also be converted adds another layer of ick. Forcibly claiming dominion over people who don't even worship you (and infact despise you) and changing them physically against their will is something her *mother* would do and if that's how it played out...feels very evil to me and out of character IMO.

**What really bugs me about this particular racial supremacist stuff being presented positively here is that a form of it was already present in the setting within the Vhaerunian church as part of their creepy quasi-quiverfull/eugenics movement. And it was unequivocally and unmistakably presented as an evil thing. So I find it incredibly hard to believe (particularly since Vhaeraun was a part of that series) that nobody in the entire process was unaware what was going into the novel series. Someone should have called a meeting or something, brought it up, and stamped it out long before it got printed, much less made it into a culminating part of a three-part novel series.
Irennan Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 17:24:47
It's crap even for the surface drow. "You're not good enough in the skin you were born with, so I will now force a physical transformation on you, regardless of what you want, because that will make you good enough". Whoever thought of that needs to stop writing, seriously (and knowing the names, I can only say it's a good thing they no longer work on anything FR-related).

It's also crap for Eilistraee, who strives to help the drow understand that they have intrisincal worth as individuals, for what they are, that they don't need to conform to arbitrary standards to be considered people (which is what Lolth makes them believe through abuse), and who chose to be drow precisely because of that reason.


@Wooly
quote:
I wouldn't say she's the *one* thing that could reform an evil drow -- it's just that she's the one most actively interested in such.


Thing is, she's not even about reforming drow, she's about helping the drow heal from lifelong abuse, find a sense of safety and belonging, move forward towards fulfilling themselves (which is pretty unique to Eilistraee). Generally speaking, a drow who has this will no longer do the evil Lolthite things, because that stuff is nothing but a learned survival system, and to let go of flawed survival systems, you need to be put in a position where they fail because they're no longer needed. Like, Eilistraee's teachings all focus on how to relearn to enjoy life and feel safe in a community, not on "redeem yourself!!!1!", and as a goddess, as we read in Demihuman Deities, and as Elaine illustrates in Starlights and Shadows, she wants the drow to find and pursue their path in life.

But seriously, if you take a look at Eilistraee's ritual, they're all focused on stuff that helps people heal from abuse, ranging from communal songs and dances to rebuild a sense of synchrony, to the evensong that helps former Lolthites integrate the memories of what they went through as something that it's over, no longer happening (unlike traumatized brains are wired to believe), thus contributing to teaching them that they're safe and that they can look for things that make them feel fulfilled, rather than just safe.
sno4wy Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 16:57:56
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
If you're referring to the handful of transformed drow, they (and most of Lady Penitent) had already been retconned when RAS started this thing.

For the better IMHO: you don't need race changes, curses, demons, and whatnots to have different cultures. All those things defeat the meaning behind having good drow in general, and Eilistraee in particular, because they tie race and inherited curses to choice&behavior. They're also narratively shallow: choices and how people change to reach a goal are at the core of narrative, if you start associating external magical stuff to that, said core goes out of the window. What RAS is doing isn't much better, though.

If you're referring to the ancient Ssri'Tel, the pre-drow ones, then yeah, they're retconned, but WotC did that far before RAS in this case too.



One thing I've always thought about that transformation is, despite how it was made to seem like this great and liberating thing, it's actually pretty horrible for some of the drow that it happened to. Sure, it's all well and good if you're on the surface and/or in a community with other like-minded individuals, but what about those Miyeritari drow who were still in Lolthite cities? Suddenly, without warning, they get transformed into a surface elf, unable to see because the transformation would take away their darkvision. Even worse, they've spent their entire life carefully cultivating an identity to keep themselves alive, and then it's just all suddenly stripped away from them. Even if they're not in a Lolthite city but just hiding out in the Underdark, suddenly their innate tools for survival down there is taken away from them. Just seems so terribly thought out because of how horribly those individuals will suffer and die, in exchange for something that fundamentally didn't change much.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 16:26:35
quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

Thanks, I didn't know that. And I completely agree with you. Eilistraee is, in the way I see it, the one thing that might bring a drow to do some good and start thinking of something other then his/her self. The option of something else than Lolth and the evil matriarchy. That's just how I look at it though.



I wouldn't say she's the *one* thing that could reform an evil drow -- it's just that she's the one most actively interested in such.
Erikor Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 15:22:45
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by deserk
No reference to Eilistraee nor the Dark Seldarine either. Also, no explanation or word of the Crown Wars.



It's worse than that, actually. He's erased all of the existing lore about the drow and rewrote it as something altogether different. He first presented it in Relentless with Kimmuriel uses talk no jutsu to get Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 to remember, and then "confirmed" that was actual history by having the aevendrow remember the same thing. In Bob's FR canon, there were no Crown Wars and Eilistraee only exists to be mocked and denigrated. In his version, the drow went to the Underdark to escape oppression from the surface while the aevendrow broke away.



So the ssri-tel-quessir basically doesn't exist, even after what happened with Q'arlynd Melarn?



If you're referring to the handful of transformed drow, they (and most of Lady Penitent) had already been retconned when RAS started this thing.

For the better IMHO: you don't need race changes, curses, demons, and whatnots to have different cultures. All those things defeat the meaning behind having good drow in general, and Eilistraee in particular, because they tie race and inherited curses to choice&behavior. They're also narratively shallow: choices and how people change to reach a goal are at the core of narrative, if you start associating external magical stuff to that, said core goes out of the window. What RAS is doing isn't much better, though.

If you're referring to the ancient Ssri'Tel, the pre-drow ones, then yeah, they're retconned, but WotC did that far before RAS in this case too.



Thanks, I didn't know that. And I completely agree with you. Eilistraee is, in the way I see it, the one thing that might bring a drow to do some good and start thinking of something other then his/her self. The option of something else than Lolth and the evil matriarchy. That's just how I look at it though.
Irennan Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 09:40:43
quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by deserk
No reference to Eilistraee nor the Dark Seldarine either. Also, no explanation or word of the Crown Wars.



It's worse than that, actually. He's erased all of the existing lore about the drow and rewrote it as something altogether different. He first presented it in Relentless with Kimmuriel uses talk no jutsu to get Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 to remember, and then "confirmed" that was actual history by having the aevendrow remember the same thing. In Bob's FR canon, there were no Crown Wars and Eilistraee only exists to be mocked and denigrated. In his version, the drow went to the Underdark to escape oppression from the surface while the aevendrow broke away.



So the ssri-tel-quessir basically doesn't exist, even after what happened with Q'arlynd Melarn?



If you're referring to the handful of transformed drow, they (and most of Lady Penitent) had already been retconned when RAS started this thing.

For the better IMHO: you don't need race changes, curses, demons, and whatnots to have different cultures. All those things defeat the meaning behind having good drow in general, and Eilistraee in particular, because they tie race and inherited curses to choice&behavior. They're also narratively shallow: choices and how people change to reach a goal are at the core of narrative, if you start associating external magical stuff to that, said core goes out of the window. What RAS is doing isn't much better, though.

If you're referring to the ancient Ssri'Tel, the pre-drow ones, then yeah, they're retconned, but WotC did that far before RAS in this case too.
Erikor Posted - 11 Dec 2021 : 09:33:14
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by deserk
No reference to Eilistraee nor the Dark Seldarine either. Also, no explanation or word of the Crown Wars.



It's worse than that, actually. He's erased all of the existing lore about the drow and rewrote it as something altogether different. He first presented it in Relentless with Kimmuriel uses talk no jutsu to get Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 to remember, and then "confirmed" that was actual history by having the aevendrow remember the same thing. In Bob's FR canon, there were no Crown Wars and Eilistraee only exists to be mocked and denigrated. In his version, the drow went to the Underdark to escape oppression from the surface while the aevendrow broke away.



So the ssri-tel-quessir basically doesn't exist, even after what happened with Q'arlynd Melarn?

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