| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 23:39:55
Could it be similar to how Lolth gained power status, and reshaped the pantheon? Just the sun gods version failed? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 23:31:48
Random idea that I just had: the name Dawn Cataclysm implies that it was, well, cataclysmic... And thinks I that it would have been noticed in the mortal world.
What if it was, but the cause was misunderstood by mortals? Maybe a huge cooperative spell was being cast when the DC went down, and the combined effects of this spell and the Weave going offline during the DC had some rather unanticipated and continent-reshaping effects?
Maybe the elves aren't so responsible for the Sundering, after all...
Just a thought.  Not sure that I'd try to include it, even if I was trying to figure out the entire DC. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 23:25:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know the Weave went down in -339, but this earlier instance is not listed in Netheril's histories, so the DC had to happen before Netheril was keeping records (or at the very latest, before the first enclave went skyward).
I agree that the weave failing is not listed in Netheril's history. But, to my knowledge, it is also not listed in the histories of Jhaamdath, Calimshan, or the many elven empires that preceded Netheril. Should we then conclude, based on this sort of reasoning, the weave must have failed prior to any of these empires also? While we have the most lore on Netheril, and it was the most magical human nation, beyond this I'm not sure why we should prioritize its records (or absence from its records) so highly above all other nations.
It's not just not mentioned in Netherese history, it's not mentioned any histories that we've seen. Netheril is more recent than a lot of other empires, though, and would have been more impacted than most -- so it's fair to say if it's not in their history, it happened before them.
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
And then if we follow this reasoning, Lathander becomes a very old god indeed. Which perhaps he is!
Unless you go with my idea of Lathander being something other than the god he is today, when the whole thing started.
I agree that Ed's Tweet makes a lot of timing issues for the DC -- but then again, there have always been timing issues with the DC-- like the fact Azuth ascended around the time of the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was after he was a Magister. We know when he was no longer the Magister, and that's a hell of a long gap. And the first recorded mention in published Realmslore of Lathander was well after the fall of Netheril. The fact that the Dawn Cataclysm has been said to presage the Fall of Myth Drannor rather strongly implies that the DC happened whilst Myth Drannor was around. And Tyche split during the DC and her church schismed well after Netheril, as well. And so on.
So while Ed's Tweet does complicate matters, it's already a complicated mess.
Temporal wonkiness, as I said earlier, is hard to wrap one's head around -- and it's a little too handwavium for me. Hence, I favor the idea that the Dawn Cataclysm wasn't just something that happened and was done. Either it drug on for centuries, or the direct effects of it continued on for some time. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 20:24:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know the Weave went down in -339, but this earlier instance is not listed in Netheril's histories, so the DC had to happen before Netheril was keeping records (or at the very latest, before the first enclave went skyward).
I agree that the weave failing is not listed in Netheril's history. But, to my knowledge, it is also not listed in the histories of Jhaamdath, Calimshan, or the many elven empires that preceded Netheril. Should we then conclude, based on this sort of reasoning, the weave must have failed prior to any of these empires also? While we have the most lore on Netheril, and it was the most magical human nation, beyond this I'm not sure why we should prioritize its records (or absence from its records) so highly above all other nations. And then if we follow this reasoning, Lathander becomes a very old god indeed. Which perhaps he is! |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 20:17:20
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, the best way I can think of to deal with the phrase that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "outside of time" is that some portion of IT occurred, then someone went BACK in time and did something to make whatever IT was actually not happen, creating something of a paradox, but not enough of a paradox to destroy time. Therefore, the instance of things that occurred and was "overwritten" by someone going back in time occurred "outside of time". The worry is that someone begins to peer too closely into the dawn cataclysm to figure out what really occurred, which then threatens to bring the paradox to light, and then said person (whether they be good or evil) has to either be distracted, coerced into not digging further, or finally be eliminated "for the greater good". That after all may be why Murdane.... the goddess of Reason... may have had to have been eliminated, because she came too close to the truth..... so Ao had her whacked by Umberlee and told Helm he had to stand by and let it happen.
While I dislike time travel in general, and the idea of things occurring "outside of time," I was reading Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves last night and found some facts that perhaps support this interpretation. Namely it states that Mystryl was, in addition to being the goddess of magic, was also the goddess of time. And she carefully regulated time travel. She seems to regulate time travel at different times, however, being particularly strict pre-Fall of Netheril.
If the Dawn Cataclysm is as you say, namely involved with time travel or some time paradox, and also somehow involves Mystryl, then it explains why she then starts to heavily regulate time travel. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 20:12:10
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I love Ed to death but his tweet makes no sense.
-- George Krashos
Yeah I agree George, it is an unfortunate tweet. I don't see how it can be reconciled with existing sourcebook lore. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 18:19:34
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably.
Are you confusing the Dawn Cataclysm with Karsus' Folly?
-- George Krashos
Not at all.
Again, the words of Ed:
@Greysil_Tassyr
If Mystra's Chosen are there to stabilize the Weave, and Mystryl had Chosen... Does that mean that Karsus's Ultimate Mistake wasn't the first time the Weave went down?
@TheEdVerse
Yes. ;}
#Realmslore
@Greysil_Tassyr
Oh ye wascally bearded wabbit, you know we want to know more!
@TheEdVerse
Let me give thee two words: Dawn Cataclysm.
#Realmslore
----
So Mystryl had Chosen in case the Weave went down, and this was because the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm. Since Mystryl wasn't around after -339, the Dawn Cataclysm -- and the associated collapse of the Weave -- had to have happened before then.
We know the Weave went down in -339, but this earlier instance is not listed in Netheril's histories, so the DC had to happen before Netheril was keeping records (or at the very latest, before the first enclave went skyward).
The two biggest issues with this earlier guesstimate are Lathander and Tyche. We know Lathander kicked the whole thing off, but he's also described as being a young power. To square this, I theorize that Lathander has existed for a long time, but that he was first a mortal or proxy and that his apotheosis was more recent (likely a paladin of Amaunator that was made a proxy). If he was a proxy of Amaunator, it ties him to that deity, gives him the power to be a problem, but still allows him to be a young deity.
I'm inclined to think that mortal/proxy Lathander didn't start with trying to reshape everything; I think he prolly had a long-standing enmity with an evil power (or the proxy of one) and finally managed to slay them. This cause tension and conflict among the powers, whilst Lathander, thinking he'd done a good thing, decides to scale up his efforts.
Making him a proxy also gives Lathander a better excuse for interacting with Tyche. A mortal likely wouldn't interact that much with a greater power, but a proxy representing another greater power? That's another story.
The other main issue with the DC happening so early is that we know when the Church of Tyche split into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba. That's a heck of a long time for these two rival deities to maintain a unified church. It's because of this that I have (reluctantly!) started leaning towards the DC being an event that took place over centuries, even millennia -- or that time itself somehow went awry, widely separating the cause (Tyche splitting) from the effect (the church splitting) happening in the mortal world. I favor the long DC over the temporal wonkiness approach, if only because it's easier to wrap the mind around.
Alternatively, the myth about Tyche's split is just a myth, and having her split during the DC is a mistaken mortal belief, perhaps because of some concurrent event (like the Fall of Myth Drannor) that is also believed to be connected to the Dawn Cataclysm.
(Another alternative for squaring away Lathander's involvement is that the modern Lathander wasn't involved at all, but contains or is partially made up of the entity that was involved. Lathander could have absorbed that earlier entity, or perhaps that earlier entity merged with another forming the one now known as Lathander. So this theoretical entity {whom I will dub "Earlias"} could have been a deity that kicked off everything, and then later, his merger with or absorption into Lathander made everyone transfer the blame to the Morninglord, since -- technically -- it was a part of him that was involved. I can't say I'm particularly keen on this idea, though, compared to a semidivine Lathander starting everything) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 12:03:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably.
Are you confusing the Dawn Cataclysm with Karsus' Folly?
-- George Krashos |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 12:00:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably.
I love Ed to death but his tweet makes no sense.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 16:52:49
So, the best way I can think of to deal with the phrase that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "outside of time" is that some portion of IT occurred, then someone went BACK in time and did something to make whatever IT was actually not happen, creating something of a paradox, but not enough of a paradox to destroy time. Therefore, the instance of things that occurred and was "overwritten" by someone going back in time occurred "outside of time". The worry is that someone begins to peer too closely into the dawn cataclysm to figure out what really occurred, which then threatens to bring the paradox to light, and then said person (whether they be good or evil) has to either be distracted, coerced into not digging further, or finally be eliminated "for the greater good". That after all may be why Murdane.... the goddess of Reason... may have had to have been eliminated, because she came too close to the truth..... so Ao had her whacked by Umberlee and told Helm he had to stand by and let it happen. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 04:29:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's been previously suggested in our own halls that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside of time... I do not like this explanation, simply because the idea of something happening without the passage of time doesn't work for me.
Another suggestion I've seen is that the Dawn Cataclysm wasn't a singular brief event -- it may have been something that started and then lasted for a long time, with flareups of activity happening at various points. I'm inclined to think that this may be the only real way to address all the inconsistencies.
I also don't like the idea of the Dawn Cataclysm occurring "outside of time." I'm not sure what to do with such a notion, or how it relates to the issues at hand, like trying to figure out when Murdane was killed, etc. Just feels like a vague nonstarter to me.
As to the DC being something that started and lasted for a long time, with periodic flareups, I love that idea. It allows for the collapses of Netheril and Jhaamdath to naturally lead to an enormous flareup of a conflict that may have already been long-simmering.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that I'd call it the Wooly Principle, but I think I'd say that if nothing significant is mentioned for a particular timeframe, it is reasonable to assume nothing significant happened during that timeframe.
Yeah that is a very reasonable approach, and should probably be the default way to interpret past lore. Especially for areas that are pretty well covered with large amounts of lore. The absence of, say, any lore on what happened in Waterdeep in the year 1289 should be taken as strong evidence that nothing particularly noteworthy happened in Waterdeep that year. I think for areas in the distant past, though, or areas for which little is known, the absence of evidence I think is far less suggestive that nothing happened. In the case of Jhaamdath, for example, I am less sure that just because nothing is written about what happened between -5000 and -2000 DR that nothing of note did, in fact, happen. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 04:16:02
You know, the real heck of all of this is that unless I'm mistaken, the first mention of the Dawn Cataclysm was just some throwaway line somewhere, not meant to mean anything at all... And yet, it remains a thing that Realms fans (myself very much included) keep coming back to, time and time again. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 04:04:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
Yeah, everything you said makes perfect sense, given Ed's tweet. My problem is with the tweet itself, because it is inconsistent with Faiths & Avatars, where in no uncertain terms it says that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred after the fall of Netheril (it is right there on page 23). So we're in the somewhat familiar -- and exciting -- situation of having contradictory lore. (Ed's tweet also contradicts the speculations in the GHotR, but they are just speculations)
It's been previously suggested in our own halls that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside of time... I do not like this explanation, simply because the idea of something happening without the passage of time doesn't work for me.
Another suggestion I've seen is that the Dawn Cataclysm wasn't a singular brief event -- it may have been something that started and then lasted for a long time, with flareups of activity happening at various points. I'm inclined to think that this may be the only real way to address all the inconsistencies. (For me, a major issue is the fact that we know Tyche split during the DC, and we know when her church schismed -- and it was long after the Fall of Netheril)
...Though it did occur to me that perhaps time itself went awry for some reason, during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that it was distorted in such a way that events starting at one point didn't manifest until some later (or even earlier!) point. We know that Mystryl was the keeper of the timestream, and if the Weave went down at some point, maybe time wonked out, as well...
And maybe the Mystryl that was around for the Fall of Netheril wasn't the original Mystryl. Maybe the original died during the DC, and as Midnight did, her successor took her predecessor's name as her own.
quote:
Originally posted by Wendolyn
But there is something I've been meaning to talk to you about for a while Wooly. It is perhaps a bit "meta" and abstract, about how we interpret the historical canon available to us. It is something I am unsure of myself, and I think you have a consistent viewpoint on it. It is how we make sense of "blank periods" in the lore we have. Consider Jhaamdath. We know it is founded in -5800. There is some events that take us up to -5000. And then we don't hear anything about the empire until past -2000. That is three thousand years. Could crazy things have happened in there? Was there an enormous civil war? Did the Jhaamdath pantheon get altered, with an old god dying and being replaced by a new god? Was there a huge, wild, varied history full of Realms-shaking events, including a breakdown of the weave (or some psionic analogue) we just don't know about? Or is it that for 3,000 years, nothing of note occurred? There could have been all kinds of minor things. Surely many bladelords lived and died, some minor squabbles, etc.
I feel you have a more or less consistent view on the subject, a view I will tentatively call the Wooly Principle which is that "the absence of lore in a time period is evidence that nothing majorly important happened in that time period." So using the Wooly Principle, the gap of information about Jhaamdath between -5000 DR and -2000 DR is evidence that nothing major happened. I think this is a reasonable principle. Probably you can state it better. Maybe it's more like "the absence of lore in a time period, for which there were great scribes such as Netheril, is evidence that nothing major happened in that time period." Anyways I would be glad to hear your views on this
I don't know that I'd call it the Wooly Principle, but I think I'd say that if nothing significant is mentioned for a particular timeframe, it is reasonable to assume nothing significant happened during that timeframe. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 03:18:59
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, ... <snip>
Source?
-- George Krashos
Ed himself, via Twitter, on March 5 of last year. The exchange is on the third page of this discussion. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 02:32:41
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, ... <snip>
Source?
-- George Krashos
I think the source is a brief tweet from Ed, described earlier in this thread (though I could be wrong) |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 02:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably.
Yeah, everything you said makes perfect sense, given Ed's tweet. My problem is with the tweet itself, because it is inconsistent with Faiths & Avatars, where in no uncertain terms it says that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred after the fall of Netheril (it is right there on page 23). So we're in the somewhat familiar -- and exciting -- situation of having contradictory lore. (Ed's tweet also contradicts the speculations in the GHotR, but they are just speculations)
But there is something I've been meaning to talk to you about for a while Wooly. It is perhaps a bit "meta" and abstract, about how we interpret the historical canon available to us. It is something I am unsure of myself, and I think you have a consistent viewpoint on it. It is how we make sense of "blank periods" in the lore we have. Consider Jhaamdath. We know it is founded in -5800. There is some events that take us up to -5000. And then we don't hear anything about the empire until past -2000. That is three thousand years. Could crazy things have happened in there? Was there an enormous civil war? Did the Jhaamdath pantheon get altered, with an old god dying and being replaced by a new god? Was there a huge, wild, varied history full of Realms-shaking events, including a breakdown of the weave (or some psionic analogue) we just don't know about? Or is it that for 3,000 years, nothing of note occurred? There could have been all kinds of minor things. Surely many bladelords lived and died, some minor squabbles, etc.
I feel you have a more or less consistent view on the subject, a view I will tentatively call the Wooly Principle which is that "the absence of lore in a time period is evidence that nothing majorly important happened in that time period." So using the Wooly Principle, the gap of information about Jhaamdath between -5000 DR and -2000 DR is evidence that nothing major happened. I think this is a reasonable principle. Probably you can state it better. Maybe it's more like "the absence of lore in a time period, for which there were great scribes such as Netheril, is evidence that nothing major happened in that time period." Anyways I would be glad to hear your views on this |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 02:26:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, ... <snip>
Source?
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 00:49:09
From Ed's Tweet, we know that the Weave went down during the Dawn Cataclysm, and that was why she had Chosen.
We don't have any records at all -- anywhere, not just Netheril -- of magic failing before Karsus.
Since Netheril crashed down because the Weave went offline and magic failed, then the same thing couldn't have happened at any time after the first enclave was tossed skyward. Ioulaum's enclave was raised something like 2700 years before Netheril fell, and there was an utter buttload of them aloft by -339 DR.
That pushes back the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm, considerably. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 20:40:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We know it happened during the time of Mystryl. That means it couldn't have happened at any point after -339 DR.
And the Netheril stuff covers that timeframe, at least for Netheril. Sure, they'd not be privy to everything happening on Toril -- but it's going to be a hard sell to convince me that they'd be entirely unaffected and oblivious to a major divine upheaval.
Nothing else mentions a divine upheaval during this time, either. The only effects of the DC that we know of that can be linked to the DC are the death of Murdane and the sundering of Tyche -- and neither of those events is dated, anywhere.
Part of why I maintain that the DC must have predated Netheril is because we don't have much info, going that far back. There's a lot more potential for stuff to happen, then, with records of it either not existing (because no one who saw it had a writing system) or having been lost since then.
You know much more about this than I do Wooly! Do you mind sharing how we know it happened when Mystryl was around? Is it the brief twitter quote from Ed discussed earlier in this thread? That's an interesting bit of lore, but on the other hand, I think F&A flatly says the Dawn Cataclysm was "known to have occurred after the fall of Netheril." And GHoTR speculates on multiple possibles times also post-Netheril. Possibly it is both ways? I.e. the DC begins around -350 DR, while Mystryl is around, but extends after Netheril's destruction. And this would explain why, as you mention, we don't see the DC in any of Netheril's records -- it only begins at the very end of their empire. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 19:59:49
We know it happened during the time of Mystryl. That means it couldn't have happened at any point after -339 DR.
And the Netheril stuff covers that timeframe, at least for Netheril. Sure, they'd not be privy to everything happening on Toril -- but it's going to be a hard sell to convince me that they'd be entirely unaffected and oblivious to a major divine upheaval.
Nothing else mentions a divine upheaval during this time, either. The only effects of the DC that we know of that can be linked to the DC are the death of Murdane and the sundering of Tyche -- and neither of those events is dated, anywhere.
Part of why I maintain that the DC must have predated Netheril is because we don't have much info, going that far back. There's a lot more potential for stuff to happen, then, with records of it either not existing (because no one who saw it had a writing system) or having been lost since then. |
| Wendolyn |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 19:25:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, I'm inclined to think it predated Netheril. I think that any kind of major conflict between the gods would have had visible repercussions among the mortal world -- but nothing like this is recorded, aside from the much later schism in Tyche's church. It's a given that the info we have on Netheril is problematic, but it still covers a good chunk of time without any reference to divine upheaval. Thus, the DC must have been before that.
Well said Wooly, but just to push back slightly, are we sure that nothing like this is recorded? Granted I mostly know about the Vilhon React, but we have major events happening there that are consistent with this interpretation. One god, Auppenser, is reduced to a vestige. Another, Valigan Thirdborn, is slain. Tyr himself enters the world at the head of 200 planetars, and forms an alliance with Ilmater. Bane may very well have manifested in the Reach at that time as detailed in Swords of the Iron Legion. And the bloody Sixth Seros War kicks off under the Sea of Fallen Stars where according to this theory Umberlee is appearing. Just saying that, the period of a couple hundred years following -350 DR is definitely the most eventful in the Vilhon Reach, deity wise (before the Era of Upheaval that is, where Lathander and Umberee again play big roles in the area) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 16:56:50
Given that we know the Dawn Cataclysm happened when Mystryl was around, I'm inclined to think it predated Netheril. I think that any kind of major conflict between the gods would have had visible repercussions among the mortal world -- but nothing like this is recorded, aside from the much later schism in Tyche's church. It's a given that the info we have on Netheril is problematic, but it still covers a good chunk of time without any reference to divine upheaval. Thus, the DC must have been before that. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 10 Apr 2021 : 14:09:24
My apologies for the thread necromancy, but I stumbled on this post by afroakuma regarding his interpretation of the Dawn Cataclysm on gitp's planar questions thread, and thought it might be an interesting point of discussion.
By afroakuma:
• The Dawn Cataclysm was a period of Faerűnian history that took place over a few hundred years, beginning around, loosely, -350 DR.
• The root causes of the Dawn Cataclysm are numerous, but the most predominant are three:
• The ascension of the Dark Three through the machinations of the Netherese deity Jergal.
• The fall of Netheril through the folly of Karsus.
• The emergence of Lathander, called Morninglord, a power of renewal.
• Whether Lathander emerged from the death of Amaunator, the Netherese sun god, or was present before in a different pantheon (the Talfiric, perhaps) and coexisted, is ultimately difficult to say. One prominent theory held that Lathander, Amaunator, and Jergal represented the dawn, the midday, and the dusk, and that only two of the three could hold sway at any one time. If this is true, then the emergence of Lathander at the same time that Amaunator fell and Jergal voluntarily diminished himself may have disrupted the cycle and the balance of three.
• The Dark Three were active during the time of Netheril, and likely began to forge their cults and churches in the strife and death of the fall. This surge in prominence of three new faces of evil was a cause for alarm among the powers of Good, as the Dark Three lacked for subtlety, hungering to set upon the world as its new rulers.
• Lathander viewed the fractious pantheons of Faerűn as stagnant and sedentary, unable to respond to the evils of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. He urged his followers to spread forth from their lands, making contact with the followers of deities from other pantheons. Lathander attempted to convince these gods that they needed to change, or they would fall under others who were more adaptable. He exhorted them to follow his example - and to follow him, as the leader of a united pantheon of goodly and rational deities against the upjumped mortals now threatening to bring the world to heel.
• Some deities were eager to join him, concerned about the strength of evil. Others were resistant to uniting with other pantheons, concerned that their portfolios would be at risk. Some were actively encouraged by the concept of predating on deities from other pantheons in order to seize more power for themselves.
• These divisions happened not between individual pantheons, but within them. The god Auppenser was supreme among the Jhaamdathan pantheon, and would not hear of kneeling to the Morninglord, concerned as he was about protecting the psions of his land. Factionalism among the gods caused division in the Jhaamdathan pantheon, resulting in a coup in Jhaamdath that installed a vicious warmonger in place of the old rulers.
• With the gods of war eagerly unleashed upon one another, the gods of storm and fury came forth to bring havoc. Lathander's crusade had transgressed the traditional boundaries of the pantheons, and the fragile peace shattered as gods of all stripes struggled to cement their roles in the free-for-all.
• When the dust cleared, it became evident that whatever Lathander's actual goals, he had missed the forest for the trees - the most ancient evil of Toril, Shar, had undermined his efforts from the very beginning, using the kinds of foe he would immediately perceive as the greatest threat (new gods, young and active, like himself) as a diversion while she helped strengthen other forces of darkness. A dreadful ocean goddess, Umberlee, was summoned by elves into the Sea of Fallen Stars, where she seized and drowned the last defender of Jhaamdath, the reason goddess Murdane, capturing the inland sea within her portfolio and establishing herself as the predominant deity of all the waters. The foul demiurge Moander deceived and corrupted Tyche, goddess of fate, forcing Shar's rival Selűne to salvage a lesser goddess of good fortune from the putrefying essence of her friend while unleashing a cruel goddess of misfortune upon the Realms. The battles of gods with similar portfolios had greatly empowered forces such as destruction and war, seating Tempus and Talos as greater gods with wider sway over the Realms.
• The ultimate outcome of the Dawn Cataclysm was a united Faerűnian pantheon, with many gods much greater in scope than they had been previously. Lathander obviously did not get to renew the world entire without the stain of darkness, nor did he become leader of the united pantheon or otherwise achieve his aims. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 18:51:31
Learned Scribe keftiu,
Are you talking about the prophecy or the banjo players?
Best regards,
|
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 22:15:38
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Did anything ever come of Lathander's "Deliverance" scheme?
Well, as far as I know, the Deliverance was the prophecy (believed heretical by many in the church), when Lathander would be replaced/become Amaunataur, which is what happened in 4e. I remember the Deliverance being mentioned in The Twilight Wars, and those books were written during the transition to 4e. So, you could say the Deliverance scheme came to pass. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 10:23:35
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Did anything ever come of Lathander's "Deliverance" scheme?
We really don't know. Details on the Dawn Cataclysm have been frustratingly sparse.
We know of a couple of divine deaths, and that's about it -- and even there, the only one we have actual info on appears to be more collateral damage than anything else.
And that is literally almost everything we know: Lathander caused it, and Murdane and Tyche died. Aside from that, we have no solid information at all. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 05:24:53
Did anything ever come of Lathander's "Deliverance" scheme? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 00:38:43
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Do we know if he was Lathander or Amaunator during the Cataclysm?
That's one of the tricky things.
We know Amaunator was active during the time of Netheril; he was worshipped there and lost nearly all of his worshippers when Netheril fell.
We don't have any references to Lathander that I'm aware of earlier than -137 DR -- more than 200 years after the fall of Netheril.
Yet, as I pointed out, Netherese history doesn't record the Weave going down under Karsus's big mistake. So if the Weave went down during Mystryl's watch, then it had to have been before Netheril was all about wizardry.
And since Amaunator was worshipped in Netheril, then he was likely around for a while before then.
But we know Lathander was involved in the whole mess with the Dawn Cataclysm.
So if the DC was before Netheril and Amaunator was around during Netheril, then there's two possibilities (one of which just occurred to me):
1) Lathander wasn't yet a deity when he set things in motion. Maybe he was a paladin of Amaunator, maybe he was a Chosen or proxy of Amaunator. In this scenario, his apotheosis happens sometime after the fall of Netheril (likely soon after, for him to have paladins around, slaying vampires, 200 years later).
2) Lathander, despite being described as young, actually predates Amaunator. He was a power before Netheril, fell from power because of and perhaps during the DC, but then somehow managed to come back. Maybe he was subsumed by Amaunator, but broke loose when Netheril fell.
I'll grant there's some assumptions being made, here, the most notable of which is that the failure of magic during the DC would have been noticed in the Realms.
But I think it all hangs together... And to me, the idea that Lathander was some sort of servant/follower of Amaunator really works -- especially if he was a proxy. That gives him the power to start something -- maybe by killing a proxy of another power -- and puts him in the perfect position to inherit some of Amaunator's power when that deity fell. Lathander's oft-referenced youthful demeanor could be because he was born mortal and is in many ways still new to the whole god gig.
Of course, since Lathander covers rebirth, there is a certain elegance to the idea that he fell before the time of Netheril and was then reborn after it fell. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 23:32:37
He was Lathander, as far as I know. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 23:22:32
Do we know if he was Lathander or Amaunator during the Cataclysm? |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 01:15:40
Master Rupert,
I have to concur here as well. I like the ideas of Great Reader sleyvas, but in the end, Ao does appear to be seemingly all powerful as it pertains to the deities of the Realms.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno. He can strip any deity of their power in an instant. He can elevate mortals to divinity or kick them out entirely, on a whim. And as Ed has recently stated, he can even supersede a deity's control of their own portfolio.
I don't see anything that indicates that Ao is not so far beyond deities that they'd barely annoy him if they tried anything. There's evidence for him being way more powerful than they, and nothing even hinting they can contest with him in any way.
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