| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 30 Mar 2021 : 07:05:17
There is a multitude of powerful magical items in the Realms, relics of tremendous power that are famous enough that any bard or sage worthy of that title could tell any adventurer about them. Many of them are lost. I'm wondering how that's possible: surely these items are well known enough that they can be unambiguously identified to scry upon them? (if not scrying, locate object, invisible stalker, or even contact other plane, with enough determination to play 20 questions)
One possible explanation is that the artefact is not so much lost as hidden: someone made the effort to hide it from divination magic. Or the item is kept in a vault that benefits from such protection. Others would have been designed in such a way that it wouldn't have been possible to scry upon it even before it got lost. In some cases, the item is in a different plane, and no one knows where to look. I'm not clear as to whether a bag of holding counts as a different plane, but if so that could be another way scrying would fail.
But that still leaves a lot of items that were simply lost, in the Prime, with no particular hiding mechanism. How is it possible that an item desired by many a powerful mage could simply be misplaced for centuries? And what about non-magical items, such as a journal that might contain important secrets, but no magic to justify that it hasn't been found yet?
Typically, how are the Avowed of Candlekeep still finding books that were lost centuries ago? I understand that it wouldn't be easy to find volunteers to retrieve the journal of a dead adventurer from the lair of the dragon who killed them, but it should at least be possible to identify in what dungeon that journal would be. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 22:12:04
In 2e, there was this concerning the detect magic spell:
A stone wall of 1 foot or more thickness, solid metal of I inch thickness, or a yard or more of solid wood blocks the spell. Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may confuse or conceal weaker radiations.
I used that as a general rule for locate object, too. Spells that locate/detect items that are level 6 or higher (level 5 for divine magic) can bypass normal materials but can be blocked by magic. Artifacts have the usual protection from location magics.
With that in place, you won't have some low level caster locating the Maguffin of Ultimate Awesomeness. |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 10:02:22
I've just come across an answer in an old comic book (Forgotten Realms: The Great Game): according to the mage Dwalimar Omen, most artefacts have their own detection damping aura. Now is this a security set up by the creators of the artefacts so as not to always have a target on their back, or do they all tend to develop such an aura over time? Well, let's just say that Mystra works in mysterious ways.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Apr 2021 : 20:03:46
The reliability of the tools and the rules which apply to them are not relevant to the argument.
Magic can be used to find things.
Magic can be used to hide things.
Why should either magic get special treatment or preference? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Apr 2021 : 17:10:03
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Nobody can perform a skilled task correctly 100% of the time.
[ . . . ]
I think I know why they designed it that way, because spells are a finite resource, and spells are finite because they allow characters to break the rules (sometimes drastically), and for balance reasons they made wizards unable to do anything else.
If you want proficiency-check-based magic system, take a look at The Net Wizard's Handbook.
But that's a separate can of worm for another scroll. 
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I do not understand the assumption that finding the grave of someone that died 500 years ago is way easier than finding the random artifact lost 500 years ago that the party is actually looking for.
For general things, depends on the methods. Usually gods will know if they care at all.
For arcane magic, it would make sense to require some sort of connection to the target, unless it used to be common knowledge.
But artifacts? They resist meddling and resist divinations. Also, artifacts are important.
As in, long-term game pieces in "divine chess". Thus several gods with vested interest would try to interfere with each other's search, let alone prying mortals (whose pawns they are, anyway?). One of these gods probably tracks the artifact in question at any given time (possibly more for relics, in that they may change hands, but remain intrinsically "someone's" relics). But gods would apply "need-to-know" principle to revealing such information... and usually consider their own servants specifically tasked to hide/guard/capture/use/destroy the artifact to be the only people who really have to know such details. That's what "artifacts are important" means IMHO. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 13 Apr 2021 : 02:33:45
I typed finding a lost item is long hard work back in my first reply to the scroll.
Some spells might help find an item.....maybe, but they are just tools like anything else. The D&D rules don't have a "you get a plus to the DC per day, week, month, year that you do something", so maybe it's a personal houserule.
So, finding an item is hard, for all the reasons I listed. It's not impossible, just improbable to do.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 18:27:36
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Nowhere did anybody say these endeavors were going to be effortless, which is what you and Wooly have been implying throughout much of this scroll to the detriment of a meaningful exchange on this topic.
That is not at all what either of us have implied. What we have openly said is that given centuries, even millennia of time, any scattered clues you may find are likely to lead to dead ends with no other ways to move forward.
You're the one trying to make it effortless by saying that contacting the dead makes all efforts to hide something and all subsequent changes to the world to be utterly moot. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 12:48:16
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
This goes back to what I and others have said: Finding a lost item is long hard work and there are no quick easy shortcuts. Looking often takes a life time...even fancy extended non human ones. And just about all of them fail.
Excuse yourself, BTR. When did you say "Finding a lost item is long hard work" prior to me telling you the same thing on 03Apr? Just as a refresher - "All the protection spells in the world cannot stop detective work. Legend Lore & Vision spells in particular are divining rods that circumvents that "immune to divinations" trait of artifacts because it follows trails, clues, and information. More accessible is bardic lore that will do the same thing with enough dice rolls. The final nail in the coffin of this argument is that days, weeks, months, years or more may be spent tracking down the whereabouts of truly lost items. The bonuses to checks will accumulate and even epic level DCs will be overcome because motivated individuals are not like the impatient & feckless people populating our modern world that will give up a difficult task as soon as things don't immediately produce results. Researching, interviewing, compiling, collating, tracking, and verifying information will render a result." So that would make this the 4TH TIME I have brought up this exact point in the same scroll.
Nowhere did anybody say these endeavors were going to be effortless, which is what you and Wooly have been implying throughout much of this scroll to the detriment of a meaningful exchange on this topic. Reading your responses left me with the impression that the both of you have concocted such as a straw man position to argue against instead of what the OP made clear from the very beginning. To paraphrase what you wrote earlier, BTR, few sages on the Candlekeep forum are as smart or clever as they think they are...
Nothing new has been added here for a while and my patience is exhausted, so I am not bothering with this scroll again. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 03:02:53
This goes back to what I and others have said: Finding a lost item is long hard work and there are no quick easy shortcuts. Looking often takes a life time...even fancy extended non human ones. And just about all of them fail. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 12 Apr 2021 : 01:40:11
Have you ever played a game called "Where in the World is Carmen San Diego?" If so, did you just give up after not finding her at the first location you searched? The game is designed for you to fail to catch her at the first location. Does that mean the game is over? That makes as much sense as a fighter giving up the battle because he failed to hit a goblin with his first attack. Just like the fighter who has to try again, maybe moving to a more advantageous position or gain additional bonuses, the endeavoring parties (PC or NPC) on the trail of the lost items will be able to build on their failures and successes over time. Sages, knowledge skills, bardic lore, and a host of other activities can continue in earnest from this location to figure out what would want to move such an item but not use it, is likely to hoard it, or met an untimely end before using it. Again, the system (3e to current) is there to pick up the GM's slack. The only real dead end is a petulant GM that is not honest with the players.
There is one more option that NOBODY brought up as for why lost items are lost - they were destroyed. This is also an acceptable answer for why these things are not found that is not contradicted by the lore or the rules. Entities and organizations endeavoring to find these items would end up at their remains. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 19:28:18
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Nope, the thing is few people in real or fantasy worlds are as smart or clever as they think they are....
Example continued:
Silly Player- "I become an arch necromancy cleric and command the ghost of King Zim to use my discern location device and tell me the location of the Orb of Doom!"
DM- "Wait...how will you find the ghost, assuming there is a ghost of that person?"
Silly Player- "Um, epic skill Find Ghost?"
And, naturally that player would first have to get a arch necromancer cleric character to start with.
And that assumes that it's still in the last place King Zim knew about. If someone has found it since then, moved it to another spot, and taken steps to make sure it's hidden, then all the effort of finding King Zim's ghost leads you exactly nowhere. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 18:30:40
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
And what would you do when the player gives the item to the aforementioned ghost of the former legendary wielder? I can't believe I had to spell that out for you.
You mean when a character that has never ever touched the item they are seeking with the discern location spell casts the spell next to a ghost?
Or are you saying the character will find a ghost of a former owner, assuming one exists, and then have the ghost use the item to find the item for the ghost? Or will the character control the ghost somehow?
Well, to find that ghost...assuming one existed...would be a whole adventure right there. Even if you know King Bob touched the item, how do you find King Bobs ghost...assuming he even is a ghost.
Oh, and you'd have to control the ghost too.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Seriously, most of the arguments I've been seeing in this scroll against the OP's assertion are in the vein of roadblocks attempting to stonewall player characters and not in the light of a fantasy world with tens of thousands of years of civilizations and magic used by super-intelligent beings.
Nope, the thing is few people in real or fantasy worlds are as smart or clever as they think they are....
Example continued:
Silly Player- "I become an arch necromancy cleric and command the ghost of King Zim to use my discern location device and tell me the location of the Orb of Doom!"
DM- "Wait...how will you find the ghost, assuming there is a ghost of that person?"
Silly Player- "Um, epic skill Find Ghost?"
And, naturally that player would first have to get a arch necromancer cleric character to start with. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 17:26:52
"Discretionary power of the DM" is also the entire foundation for the illusionist subclass. Some DMs would let allow 3rd-level illusions to achieve great things. Other DMs would disallow or screw over even the mightiest 9th-level illusions.
So the illusionist class was almost never chosen by players. They expected illusions to autofail if they had adversarial DM.
Just as they expected wishes to autofail if they had an adversarial DM. A ring of three wishes is supposed to be a wondrous find, the stuff of legend. It's not supposed to be a ring of three Fausts.
The (ex)players who recall 2E in this negative light are not remembering bad rules, they're remembering bad DMs. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 16:35:06
I think the text in the 2E PHB is a huge factor, there:
"Discretionary power of the DM is necessary in order to maintain game balance. For example, wishing another creature dead is grossly unfair; the DM might well advance the spellcaster to a future period in which the creature is no longer alive, effectively putting the wishing character out of the campaign."
Look at that example. It's saying "It's unfair for the PCs to interfere with DM plans, but it's totally fair to get rid of a character for daring to try it."
As a DM, I think I'd be able to see any loopholes in a wish and think of ways to exploit them -- but that's generally not fair to PCs and shouldn't be done. Wishes are another of those things that DMs should be damned careful with introducing to a campaign, because it can either break a campaign or break the trust between DM and players. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 07:03:12
quote:
A ring of wishes popped up recently in my 2E campaign. One of the others asked what it did, and I immediately said "In 2E, it's a chance for the DM to screw you over. You get to wish for just about anything -- but even if you've written it down and had a lawyer go over it, you're probably still screwed."
In 2E, the spell description for wish was a modest half-page or so, not unusual for a high-level spell. But guidelines in the DMG - along with more guidelines and clarifications and addendums and expansions in a dozen other sourcebooks - effectively turned the description of this one spell into a major chapter of the ruleset.
One detail which remained fairly constant was a growing list of things defining what the spell could do, how it could be used, and which lesser magics it could duplicate "safely" - that is, *without* inflicting any side-effects or Bad Things onto the caster.
In essence, the 2E rules basically assumed adversarial DM and monkey-paw consequences as the defaults for any player who got too greedy, who expected more from a wish than the rules permitted. The text never plainly stated things that way but it was understood and expected by everyone at the table.
Good DMs understood the intentions and the limits of the spell (and the player casting it), decided an overall result, figured out the details, and kept the game moving. The best DMs would often be a little epic, a little magnanimous, deliberately overlook opportunities to punish poor wording, just to maintain (or accelerate) the narrative momentum and trajectory.
Bad (or inexperienced) DMs would automatically twist every wish into some kind of problem, would dedicate much time and thought towards plotting out the most diabolical punishments onto those daring to cast the spell. Indeed, they tended to treat it as a sort of curse and their punitive efforts typically derailed their campaigns worse than any "successful" wish would have. The spell tended to manifest through an endless variety of nasty half-random surprises in complete defiance to rules repeatedly stressing the importance of literal and exacting interpretations.
This bad-DM style was the environment which cultivated resentment instead of respect from the players, which cultivated fear and apprehension instead of joy and wonder to any who obtained a wish. The kind of 2E which people reference in that quote. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 05:56:34
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A ring of wishes popped up recently in my 2E campaign. One of the others asked what it did, and I immediately said "In 2E, it's a chance for the DM to screw you over. You get to wish for just about anything -- but even if you've written it down and had a lawyer go over it, you're probably still screwed."
Reading that makes me sad. Powerful magic that is meant to warp reality to the desires of its user you feel is merely a vessel for the game master to bully & belittle the efforts of the GM's players? Really? Players vs. GM antagonism is already an overwhelming power mismatch, especially in the earlier editions of D&D, without adding this attitude. I never expected this response from you given your earlier statement defending PCs' abilities (spells, swordplay, prayers) from being arbitrarily limited.
Really? Given that it's a known thing in D&D that DMs have done the monkey paw routine with wishes and that the PHB even includes such a thing in the spell description, why is it unreasonable to say something like this?
There are many tales of DMs doing that unexpected consequence thing with wishes. One that comes to mind immediately is someone wishing for a huge amount of gold -- so the DM popped them into a vast cavern where the floor was covered with gold coins. And then the PC noticed the very large red dragon that was now angrily eying the intruder in his lair.
Sure, that's not going to be how all DMs approach it -- but there are plenty who will approach it that way. One doesn't have to assume that there's an adversarial relationship between DMs and PCs when you know that a DM isn't going to want his entire campaign derailed by something the PCs think of that he didn't.
I actually had a DM let one of my characters have a wish. I took the time to think through it, covering all the loopholes and being very specific with the desired result, then I made an Intelligence check for my character to make sure that he'd be able to think of the same thing. And then I hit my DM with it, and she immediately pushed back, because it broke what she had planned. Her "compromise" was to delay the effect until she had time to adjust her own plans for it -- and then, for reasons I don't recall, we never played again. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 03:24:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A ring of wishes popped up recently in my 2E campaign. One of the others asked what it did, and I immediately said "In 2E, it's a chance for the DM to screw you over. You get to wish for just about anything -- but even if you've written it down and had a lawyer go over it, you're probably still screwed."
Reading that makes me sad. Powerful magic that is meant to warp reality to the desires of its user you feel is merely a vessel for the game master to bully & belittle the efforts of the GM's players? Really? Players vs. GM antagonism is already an overwhelming power mismatch, especially in the earlier editions of D&D, without adding this attitude. I never expected this response from you given your earlier statement defending PCs' abilities (spells, swordplay, prayers) from being arbitrarily limited.
One point that seems to cause consternation is when I assert that selective stupidity is applied to the intelligent races of the FR. If you can think of a simple way to do X, and the other sophants with the capability to do X who can only hurt themselves by not doing X have not done X throughout thousands of years of having X available, then they are selectively stupid. Case in point, the victorious elves of the Crown Wars whom captured many reviled objects of war & magical horror did not "[g]et the right materials and a little bit of magic to block divination, find some random spot in the middle of nowhere, and then just bury it -- boom, it'll be hidden for centuries, even with people actively looking for it." The elves suffered from the unearthed horrors just a few millenia later. Point of fact, the elves have dedicated prestige classes and organizations that actively safeguard objects that should not see the light of day instead of doing what you are suggesting is "almost trivial." Why would they go through all this effort if the answer is just so easy? The other side of the coin are for all the beings aware of items of importance that have gone missing. Once again, let's look at the elves and all of their losses during the Crown Wars. They had many living priests and mages capable of casting high magic after the conclusion of the fighting capable of casting spells that would uncover their lost relics. What, did they choose not to do so? That is what I mean by "selectively stupid."
quote:
Player--"Wowzers! I use my device to find The Crystal Shard!"
DM--"Sorry the spell fails as you have never touched the object."
I could do that for hours before it got boring.
And what would you do when the player gives the item to the aforementioned ghost of the former legendary wielder? I can't believe I had to spell that out for you.
AND FOR THE LAST TIME: "... days, weeks, months, years or more may be spent tracking down the whereabouts of truly lost items." "Researching, interviewing, compiling, collating, tracking, and verifying information will render a result." This makes it the third time I have said these things. How? How do any of you not think these things represent effort and/or expenditures of resources?
And to repeat this point - we are talking about the system used for D&D that has multiple editions of game rules. At least the last 3 editions have been investing in the abilities of characters to accomplish stuff outside of combat. There are published rules for epic level skill checks that allow PCs to walk on clouds, climb the inside of a smooth glass dome, pass through walls of force, heal the wounded as if they recuperated for a full week in hospice care within an hour, sense the presence of active magic auras, and even know the surface thoughts of a person protected by spells that would defeat divinations. Those rule sets, that have dominated the FR for more than 20 years, have DCs for every task and abilities that augment or even trump those Difficulty Checks. That is why I have been saying all along that the "lost" items are in somebodys' custodies for them to remain "lost." This is the only answer I see that squares the world lore with the rules.
Seriously, most of the arguments I've been seeing in this scroll against the OP's assertion are in the vein of roadblocks attempting to stonewall player characters and not in the light of a fantasy world with tens of thousands of years of civilizations and magic used by super-intelligent beings. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Apr 2021 : 19:11:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The only thing close to "automatic" would be Wishes and such...and even those are notoriously unreliable.
A ring of wishes popped up recently in my 2E campaign. One of the others asked what it did, and I immediately said "In 2E, it's a chance for the DM to screw you over. You get to wish for just about anything -- but even if you've written it down and had a lawyer go over it, you're probably still screwed."
Then the DM revealed it was just the ring; the wishes had all been used. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 05 Apr 2021 : 18:37:30
The only thing close to "automatic" would be Wishes and such...and even those are notoriously unreliable. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 05 Apr 2021 : 09:34:04
I do not understand the assumption that finding the grave of someone that died 500 years ago is way easier than finding the random artifact lost 500 years ago that the party is actually looking for.
I completely agree that necromancy and divination combined make possible things that are almost impossible in the RW, and for things like murder cases and "recent past" events magic IS the trump card.
But for long lost items of kingdoms that don't exist anymore I'm not exactly sure how the supposed players or NPCs would go about automatically doing anything. So you want to start digging in the Fields of the Dead and question all pack of bones you find? Sure, go ahead, maybe roll up another character too as this one will be doing exactly the same thing for years ...
Another factor that's easily discounted is the time involved for the actual research and clue finding. It is a lot of time and usually adventurers, archmages, liches and dragons have their hands full with other things. There are also sages that completely devout their time and lives to this kind of archeological pursuits and that's why there are plenty adventure hooks of "wizard/sage so-and-so wants you to retrieve X object from Y ruin". But it is by no mean as easy or quick as some that replied in this thread make it out to be.
A small note on the use of comprehend language and the like: those spells make you understand phrases in a different language but don't provide instant identification for the specific proper names of people and places, actually automatic translation might be totally harmful when you are talking about titles and nicknames and places-names, just look at the mess modern day automatic translators might make sometime.
So yes, magic makes thing possible and some things much easier but it's not as automatic as it might seem. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 05 Apr 2021 : 01:55:54
I wonder why anyone dismiss beings of inhuman capabilities and tremendous resources that have access to everything mentioned in this thread not being able to protect and hide items.
I'm not sure we both use the same "system", or whatever it is you are talking about.
For every Larouch out hunting for items(though note he'd never really do that) there is an Elmister hiding the items. This is called The Balance.
Is the question would I allow a player to create a use activated boon device of Discern Location? Sure. Then the fun would start:
Player--"Wowzers! I use my device to find The Crystal Shard!"
DM--"Sorry the spell fails as you have never touched the object."
I could do that for hours before it got boring.
Luckily the D&D "system" has more things in heaven and earth, SaMoCon , than are dreamt of in your philosophy. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Apr 2021 : 00:57:21
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
So, stop ignoring the system portion of the argument just because it is inconvenient to how you want to run your games.
Like the way you're ignoring logic, and the limitations of and counters to magic? Sure, anything is possible so long as you dismiss anything inconvenient to your games, like logic and rules.
As this discussion seems to be "ignore this and it works," I'm out -- I'm not willing to chuck everything out the window just to enable the PCs to do something.
But hey, if it works for you, then knock yourself out. I'll be over here playing a game where we actually have to work for something instead of having the DM hand it to us. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 05 Apr 2021 : 00:00:15
Wow, again. Call up the dead of the suspects & witnesses - there were a number of those compiled by the Met Police even before this modern, wondrous age of "instant" communications. Victorian era investigations, primitive by modern standards, still interviewed thousands of people, investigated hundreds more, and detained four score. Between no magic and 19th century technology, what the Met was able to do is still impressive, and what archives remain after the destruction of records in the bombing of WWII is a testament to the amount of work they had accomplished. We have witnesses, victims, & suspects from this previous research, and we also have government census & tax records to also account for domiciles in proximity & relevant occupations of people to expand the witness pools. Taking a secret to the grave loses ts meaning when Necromancy is involved to summon & compel the dead.
Also, our modern world has only existed for a few decades versus a fantasy world that has been riddled with magic & superbeings since the beginning of its history. Our world, as far as we can prove with our senses, behaves in accordance with the theories of natural law. There is no such assurance of "reality" in the FR where dragons & giants can move & thrive as easily as the smaller animals, contradicting natural laws (flight, teleportation, resurrection, wish) is as effortless as casting a spell, and energy & matter can be created or destroyed. The only sophont beings in our world are Homo Sapiens while the FR has a cornucopia of sophisticated & intelligent beings, many of which consider our equivalents as merely slightly more useful animals whom are beneath their levels of reasoning. Arguments that use RW examples are great for proving capabilities in the FR using givens of technology levels and basic human competencies, but this is the only scope in which this works since anything meant to disprove along similar lines is contradicted by fantastic capabilities overcoming RW limitations as well as the utter lack of RW equivalents to the extraordinary & supernatural things commonplace to the FR or the nonsensical laws of the D&D system.
I am aware that information in the RW is incomplete, actively blocked, or even wholesale ignored because it is not popular or politically sensitive. Our world has limitations that just don't exist in the FR or anything else ruled by the D&D system. What I don't get is why anyone would instantly dismiss beings of inhuman capabilities and tremendous resources that have access to everything mentioned in this thread not being able to find what they are looking for, AND the D&D system upon which these conjectures are postulated? So, stop ignoring the system portion of the argument just because it is inconvenient to how you want to run your games.
quote:
Well, I can think of a way to solve anything...but that is just me.
Right. Only you. There is only one person that has ever existed on this planet capable of such high levels of reasoning.  As inconceivable to you as the notion that there are many more people that can reason their way through very complex problems, I can assure you that I have met many such intellectually stimulating people around the world. Since I have only interacted with the tiniest fraction of people on this planet, I think its a safe bet that there are more. But let us set that aside for the time being and focus on the assertion that you can solve anything. Then it should be a simple mental exercise for you to convert yourself in D&D stats within the parameters that you are human with the bell curve of human average abilities being 10-11. Once you have that calculated, start making comparisons with the other FR races & legendary figures (for example, Larloch). If you can come up with solutions in your spare time over some meaningless entertainment that has no bearing on your livelihood, then why can't any of these fictional beings (no small number of which have experienced centuries of life to the present), whose existence may depend on acquiring these items, do the same?
By the by, if your players have characters that 1) can craft Wondrous Items, 2) have access to the Discern Location spell, and 3) possess the time & materials to create a one-use item that triggers the spell effects upon a user as if they had cast the spell, then would you say "no, I will not allow you to do that even though it is essentially using the same rules for the creation of other wondrous items & potions that confer spell effects on their users?" A cost is certainly going to be paid in wealth, time, and experience. The D&D system allows it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Apr 2021 : 02:30:29
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Jack the Ripper's identity would be known as soon as you can talk to the dead.
Sure... Unless he was masked/disguised, or unknown to his victims, or otherwise didn't let them get a good luck at him. And then, with no magic at all used on his part, your magical attempts to identify him fail.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I don't even know why anyone would use a RW example to show why efforts in a high fantasy world would fail when the RW has no accessible magic let alone one that is as compliant & reliable as D&D magic. The RW also does not have interactively responsive gods, spirits, extra-planar entities, & intelligent beings that live up to a 1000+ years; furthermore, unlike the FR, RW archeological finds from the past have little to no impact on the bearings of nations, the importance of noteworthy persons, or the daily lives of the people meaning that digging operations searching for veins of gold get capital resources while archeological expeditions get charitable resources.
No, but what the real world does have is instantaneous and accessible reliable long-distance communications, a highly-developed field of forensics, orders of magnitude fewer places to hide things, readily available and highly comprehensive sources of information, and orders of magnitude more potential witnesses -- and yet, people and valuable objects disappear without a trace all the time. It is way, way harder to hide someone or something in the real world, but it happens every day.
If RW people, with resources beyond the imagining of your average fantasy-world person, can still find themselves unable to find someone or something, why is it so unbelievable that in a world with magic and counters to that magic, that magic is always going to reign supreme?
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Any RW examples is like bringing up an arithmetic problem in a discussion of a calculus problem - it just doesn't have a place here.
Except we're not talking calculus and arithmetic, we're talking about finding hidden things with available resources. You're arguing that people are stupid if they can't find deliberately hidden things with practically non-existent information about things from centuries or millennia past, and I'm pointing that even with recent things, huge amounts of information and clues can still turn up bupkis.
The argument that you seem to be ignoring is that if huge amounts of information are not guaranteed to find something, then scraps of information are similarly not guaranteed to find something.
|
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 04 Apr 2021 : 00:23:04
Well, I can think of a way to solve anything...but that is just me.
I guess you could cast Discern Location next to a ghost....but it still won't work unless your caster has touched the object.
Sure a character can talk to others, and maybe it will help. Maybe use a bit of cannon Realmslore for an example? The prize is on the north shore of The Fried Elf Water. Can you do some real research and tell me where that location is (just so you know, it's Goggle Proof). Feel free to post the answer, if you can find it.
Knowledge is lost all the time in the Realms: Have you ever read any FR book?
Ok..spirits are everywhere. So how do you find them and get them to talk to you? There are no "spirit" spells in the Players Handbook.
And saying you have had a game where some characters taked, stood nest to a ghost and then tripped and cast a divination to find anything is fine. For your game. Sure in your great game all the characters have found everything or whatever you want to have happen: it's your game. You like and run an easy game, and that is fine.
My game is roughly a hundred times harder then that. Characters don't find lost stuff often, and they have to expend lost of time and effort to even maybe get close. But, that is just my game. And the default Realms presented in the rules.
Sure there are "fantastic things" that record events.....but it's not like the Realms has Denier sitting somewhere writing a Crononcle of every single event in the world....that your character can just take and read.
There is nothing in the D&D rules that "rewards" effort.....unless your talking about some bonus xp a character gets for having a good idea or something like that.
It's not impossible to find things, it's just hard. The type of hard beyond hard.
You know, with your "thinking & deduction" there ARE ways to be a serial killer and have all your poor victims have NO IDEA who you are, and that is just mundane ways. With magic there is so much more. You can speak with the dead all the live long day...but it's useless if they don't know anything.
Note also your list of beings can and do hide items.
I'd note that RW archeological finds,or even recent history finds can have huge impacts on nations. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Apr 2021 : 23:59:22
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Failing to overcome the resistance of the target or failing to inflict enough damage is not the same as failing to cast the spell because of incompetence or just plain bad luck.
But combat is not really the best scenario to illustrate this problem, it's out of combat like scrying. How do you fail to scry something in D&D. How do you fail to conjure enough food and drink to feed yourself. How do you fail to boost you strength or agility or intelligence with a spell. How do you fail to make yourself fly. The short answer is you cant, but everybody has off days where they just cant get it right. Nobody can perform a skilled task correctly 100% of the time.
D&D gives us a skewed view of magic where it always works unless it targets another person (in which case that target can resist).
I think I know why they designed it that way, because spells are a finite resource, and spells are finite because they allow characters to break the rules (sometimes drastically), and for balance reasons they made wizards unable to do anything else.
What you're wanting is a wild mage, and those exist. Sometimes their magic works enhanced, sometimes it is reduced. Sometimes it goes entirely wacky. They have that as an optional form of caster. However, some casters (wizards) are like mathematicians... they work in absolutes to a very high degree. When it comes to divine magic, I have no problem with it working either, since the source isn't a mere mortal, but rather a greater power. Now, it definitely could be interesting if bards and warlocks acted more like wild mages. |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 03 Apr 2021 : 23:16:10
So, in other words, you guys can't think of a way to solve this? Why can't Discern Location be used with the ghost of a former wielder of said item? How is it that if you are a member of Group B that calls a thing Y that you cannot get a member of Group A to explain name X? And on... and on... and on... I thought these things were patently obvious because I have had differing groups of players across the decades of gaming that cleared these limitations and have listened to the accounts of innumerable more retelling their gaming stories of similar events.
The only knowledge that has ever been erased from the world is by the will of Ao, and even that seems to not have been 100% successful. It stands to reason that if an omnipotent being cannot do a thing then the lesser beings also cannot succeed at doing that thing. Like it or not, the dead are entities with which magic can create interactions and from which Ye Olde Information can be gathered. Thanks to "The North" box set, spirits are also entities with anthropomorphic intellects stemming from rocks & trees & animals & ancestors - witnesses to all actions in the FR. The world is filled with even more fantastic things that witness, record, and collect events in logs, Kings Tear jewels, permanent illusions, racial memories and other incredible ways at the furthest reaches of our collective imaginations. Every obstacle everyone has mentioned is not an impassable wall but a hurdle that requires more effort to clear. The scientific method applied to inconsistent results, consulting sages, doing research, and getting results in which the players can have faith takes effort on the part of the PCs. Again, D&D rules reward effort.
"Without a doubt, D&D magic would find these items when coupled with such levels of thinking & deduction." "... days, weeks, months, years or more may be spent tracking down the whereabouts of truly lost items." "Researching, interviewing, compiling, collating, tracking, and verifying information will render a result." Magic is still the thing that puts these efforts over the top. This is not an attack, just something I feel needs to be said. Jack the Ripper's identity would be known as soon as you can talk to the dead. I don't even know why anyone would use a RW example to show why efforts in a high fantasy world would fail when the RW has no accessible magic let alone one that is as compliant & reliable as D&D magic. The RW also does not have interactively responsive gods, spirits, extra-planar entities, & intelligent beings that live up to a 1000+ years; furthermore, unlike the FR, RW archeological finds from the past have little to no impact on the bearings of nations, the importance of noteworthy persons, or the daily lives of the people meaning that digging operations searching for veins of gold get capital resources while archeological expeditions get charitable resources. Any RW examples is like bringing up an arithmetic problem in a discussion of a calculus problem - it just doesn't have a place here. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2021 : 18:14:18
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
No need for any of those explanations if you take away the auto succeed of magic.
If you can fail to cast a spell, and the likelihood of failure decreases with the skill of the caster but increases with the difficulty of the task (including defences), then it easily explains why some treasures havent been found. The caster simply wasnt skilled enough to locate the item (yes there will undoubtedly be someone powerful enough to find it, but knowing where an item is and wanting to retrieve it are two different things).
But you don't need to take away anything, because there are already limitations and counters in plenty.
And taking away having a spell go off automatically is nerfing wizards, and it would not be any different from saying that sometimes a fighter tries to swing his sword and somehow can't.
As I already said: Just because an action can always be initiated doesn't mean it's always going to have the intended result. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 03 Apr 2021 : 18:10:42
Well:
Discern Location is a bit useless for finding most object most of the time. Because: To find an object, you must have touched it at least once. So if the spellcaster has never touched the object, then the spell is useless.
Legend Lore is even more limited. It only works for Legendary Items. It is no help finding any items that is not legendary. And when it does work...all you get are legends. So you'd get the legend of how Dragonslayer Dorn killed the red wyrm Rast, fighting for three days and nights, until he killed the dragon. Ok...great. So where is Dorn's sword of All-powerful Dragonslaying? Legends don't say. And even when a legend does say something your going to get: " After the battle Dorn cast the sword of All-powerful Dragonslaying into the lake, to be guarded by the lady of the lake, until a time when the sword was needed again." Note, THAT does not tell you where the sword is at all.
Translation spells can sure help translate words for a treasure seeker....but that only helps a tiny bit. You know "Tal'Or" is "Big Rock" in dwarfish.....ok, but now where is this Big Rock?
Also when your talking about high level magic to find and item, you also have to accept high level magic to hide the item. There are even magic items of permanent Mind Blank like cortical armor or a cowl of warding and the Wondrous Architecture Secure Chamber.
And if you have Epic level treasure hunters, then you have Epic level ways to hide the treasure too.
And the "influence" of the Setting The Forgotten Realms is HUGE. At least HALF of all the powerful, high level magic in D&D comes from the Realms.
And if you want to play the silly sub game of "only" using the published rules...or even "only" using the Core Rules that is fine, but it does not mean anyone side auto "wins". And I'd add for the Forgotten Realms you must include ALL Forgotten Realms rules too. And add the rest of the D&D rules too. And lets not forget about custom homebrew too.
Also, you do have FIVE editions of rules to pick from.....
Are things impossible to find....no, but it can be very hard. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Apr 2021 : 17:34:06
No need for any of those explanations if you take away the auto succeed of magic.
If you can fail to cast a spell, and the likelihood of failure decreases with the skill of the caster but increases with the difficulty of the task (including defences), then it easily explains why some treasures havent been found. The caster simply wasnt skilled enough to locate the item (yes there will undoubtedly be someone powerful enough to find it, but knowing where an item is and wanting to retrieve it are two different things). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2021 : 16:38:01
I still don't see this selective stupidity. You say that legend lore is all you need because it "follows trails, clues, and information" -- but what if the trails are gone, the clues can't be understood, and the information is insufficient? What if none of this information is enough?
Looking at the real world... We have many clues and much information about Jack the Ripper. And still, a hundred years later, we don't know who it was. More recently, the Zodiac Killer -- the guy deliberately left clues, and we still don't know who it was. We've got a huge amount of information about Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 -- yet we don't know what happened on the flight or where the plane is. We don't know who D.B. Cooper was or even if he survived jumping from that 727.
These are all well-known cases that numerous professionals and countless amateurs have been unable to solve.
There are hundreds, if not thousands of cases like this - murders, thefts, vanished art objects, disappearances - all that left behind clues and trails and information that have nonetheless led nowhere. And that's all just in the last 150 years or so, in a well-mapped and well-documented world.
Add in considerably more time and far less knowledge about the world. Add in fewer population centers and a smaller populace -- meaning more hiding places in the wild and fewer people to see or know anything. Add in the way time and catastrophes have reshaped the land itself.
And a fallacy I've addressed before, here: just because something can be known doesn't mean it will be known. We had someone here who once insisted that his character was so intelligent that he'd be able to tell you what Mystra had for breakfast -- ignoring the fact that his character would not have any way of actually obtaining that knowledge. Information can exist and yet be entirely inaccessible to someone actively looking for it.
Say a wizard named Tehm finds a spot 200 miles from the nearest settlement and far away from any roads. He uses magic to make a clearing in a forest and raise a small tower, cloaks it from magical divination, and then he stays in that tower until he dies. How is anyone going to know where that tower is? If some bit of divination magic tells you "the Amulet of OMFGKewlness can be found in a secret subbasement of Tehm's tower" how is that going to tell you where the tower is? You may research for years and find out Tehm lived in Tethyr for most of his life, and that he was last seen in a Calishite festhall before teleporting away -- that doesn't help you find his tower in the High Forest.
But maybe you do somehow figure out that his tower was in the High Forest. Great. Tehm died 500 years ago, though, and his tower was razed soon after by a passing dragon. The clearing is gone. The ruins are overgrown and buried. No trails ever led to his clearing. And the cloaking magic remains. How do you find this tower? Assuming you find it, how do you find the subbasement that Tehm took extra efforts to hide?
And even all of this still ignores other efforts to misdirect people, like decoys and deliberate misinformation.
Really, hiding something in a fantasy setting is almost trivial. Get the right materials and a little bit of magic to block divination, find some random spot in the middle of nowhere, and then just bury it -- boom, it'll be hidden for centuries, even with people actively looking for it. |
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