| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 08 Dec 2020 : 18:04:49
To not clutter the portal thread...
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
I agree that they don't need to change it up a lot to continue selling to the fans, but if they want to expand their customer base there is a lot that "needs" to be changed. The reason for this is that after a certain time the current incarnation of the product can be considered to have reached its maximum number of fans. To appeal to new fans change is needed.
This is how business folks think, and are tough to think. But it is wrong for so many things, and most of all fictional franchises.
When it comes to a thing of fiction like Superman or the Forgotten Realms you basically are a fan or you are not a fan. There is no cross over or middle ground. The perceived middle ground is just liking something, and note liking something and being a fan of something are very different. And the important part that business focus on is what will people spend their money on.
While sure everyone will have a different definition of "fan", lets limit it to a single prescription: The A-1 Money Fan. The A-1 Money Fan is a fan that will quite willing spend large amounts of money on the fandom they like, with the requirement that the content needs to be 'good', of course.
I'm a fan of the Forgotten Realms. I own nearly everything published for the Realms. If they publish anything with Realmslore I will buy it. I wait for the day Wizards will publish Volo's Guide to Realms PDAs: 30 years of hidden secrets, a twelve volume hardcover set prices at $50 each: I will buy them.
On the other hand, I am just like of Superman. I have never bought a single Superman comic (I've read some of friends or from the library sure)or any merchandise. I have never paid to go see a Superman movie, I can wait until they are 'free'. And nothing DC can ever do will make me spend and money on Superman or become a fan. But sure I like Suoerman enough to eventually read or watch anything with him in it.
The problem is that companies think very wrongly that there are tons of fans "hiding in plain sight" and all they need to do is toss out some crap and they will make tons of money. This is not true. No group of bridge playing grandmas, body painted sports cheer screamers or bird watching groups will EVER drop what they are doing and run out to buy a new Realms book and spontaneously become a fan.
There will always be a few new fans that trickle in from related groups....like fans of fictional fantasy or video games. But this is a natural trickle. If a person likes fantasy in general or RPGs in general, it's not a big leap for them to buy a Realms book. But it's a bit rare this type a person will become much more then a casual fan. They buy a couple things, then they 'max out' as they don't like the Realms that much.
So companies get this very wrong idea: They utterly ignore their current fans/customers and make some wild, crazy, "new" crap to attract people that are not fans. Like some guy that is looking on Amazon for a new fishing pole with spontaneously go over to the book section and buy a Realms book.
So the bulk of your current fans/customers don't buy the crap. And only a few new people impulse. And few of the impulse buy people become fans. So the new wild, crazy, "new" crap just fades away.
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
Yet they changed Superman quite a lot over the years. They've changed his powers from being able to jump incredibly high to being able to fly. They've killed him and brought him back. They've removed his powers, given him new powers and so on. They even cancelled the comic and then brought it back.
A near perfect bad example. DC does not put out a Superman movie for decades. DC lets the Superman comic sink to boring, lame stories where Superman stops a bank robbery....again. Then they sit and say "oh no one likes Superman any more: we must utterly change the character so Superman is not Superman, then people will like him!"
So gone is the wholesome good guy and most of all American image of Superman. Instead they make some alien monster full of anger and angst called 'superman'. They really tried to pander to the anti-American globalists non fan haters by making Superman just like them. Thinking all the hate filled non fans would just magically and suddenly like Superman, become A-1 fans, and spend lots of money on Superman.
Amazingly, it did not work.....several times.
And sure they "try and fail" to change Superman all the time. Yet oddly they always seem to come back to the Classic Basic One. Wonder why?
But there is another way. And this amazing way makes tons and tons and tons and ton and tons of money too:
You make something FOR your existing fans AND that is good enough for other non fans: Basically make something good. See that? You make something FOR the fans, your existing base that will spend their money on your good content. And you make it good enough that casual non fans will like it too.
Marvel, is the Example here. With only slight changes and updates the Marvel Characters are the same ones that have been in the comics forever. The vast majority of fans look at the MCU and say "yep, that's Captain America or yep that's Iron Man". And, at exactly the same time....the movies are good enough that millions of non fans like them too. My wife, who is not a comics reader, is now a fan of both Tony Stark and Steve Rogers (and Groot, and Baby Yoda, and..). And she fuels the MCU money making machine buying things too.
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
I don't have an opinion on whether that's a good thing or not. I am simply stating that is how it's done.
Though time and time and time and time again: Businesses are always wrong. Just check off the list of things businesses/companies/Hollywood said would not work and would not make money:
1.A woman super hero movie
2.A black super hero movie
3.A rated R superhero movie
Hum...think of any movies where "they" did not listen to the dumb businesses/companies/Hollywood and put out a good, money making movie? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 23:21:28
Great Reader Diffan,
Agreed. I am looking at the strong majorities though. I think that is largely two camps: pro and anti 5e, and they make up the bulwark of the population in this case.
Best regards,
|
| Returnip |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 10:10:57
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
That's fair. Being sort of 'meh' about 5e myself Ive looked at other systems like 13th Age, the various Warhammer 40k RPGs, and even 5E Star Wars diverges enough that I like it better than normal 5e
For me SWD6 was always the best rule system for Star Wars. Quick, simple, fun. Make characters and get things moving in just a few minutes, no need for endless pages of charts and stat blocks, you can keep on rolling forward with the same handful of dice while keeping the game and the story and the action flowing nonstop.
A D&D-based ruleset adds complexity and detail which actually discourages fast-paced action narrative. It slows and halts the flow too easily, it gets bogged down by trivial crumbs of lore too easily, it distracts from the general Star Wars setting by shifting towards pages of intricate specifics, away from the spaceships and stormtroopers firing their blasters at you. In D&D a simple thing like determining unit initiatives and orders in combat can sometimes take as long as an entire running gunfight in D6. In one game the players are still discussing how to optimize half-meaningless details while in the other the players have already finished the scene and stumbled upon their next objective.
Rule systems are sort of like genres. Some instruments are better choices for certain kinds of music, some languages are better choices for certain kinds of stories, some tools are better choices for certain kinds of projects. My experience is that D&D-style rulesets are discordant, confusing, clumsy choices for immersion into a Star Wars setting.
My favourite system over all is the Unisystem, from games such as All Flesh Must Be Eaten. It's extremely adaptive and storytelling focused, encouraging the players to participate in the storytelling rather than just ride along. It's easy to strip down or flesh out as you wish, and it's modular in a way that you can remove rules without affecting other things. I've often used All Flesh Must Be Eaten and just lifted out the zombie rules, and I'm then left with a generic rules system that I can use for literally any setting with very small modifications. I've even considered, but never gotten to it, to port the realms to that system. D&D is extremely rules heavy and complex and that's usually enough to keep people that I play with away from it. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 10:08:35
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
That's fair. Being sort of 'meh' about 5e myself Ive looked at other systems like 13th Age, the various Warhammer 40k RPGs, and even 5E Star Wars diverges enough that I like it better than normal 5e
For me SWD6 was always the best rule system for Star Wars. Quick, simple, fun. Make characters and get things moving in just a few minutes, no need for endless pages of charts and stat blocks, you can keep on rolling forward with the same handful of dice while keeping the game and the story and the action flowing nonstop.
A D&D-based ruleset adds complexity and detail which actually discourages fast-paced action narrative. It slows and halts the flow too easily, it gets bogged down by trivial crumbs of lore too easily, it distracts from the general Star Wars setting by shifting towards pages of intricate specifics, away from the spaceships and stormtroopers firing their blasters at you. In D&D a simple thing like determining unit initiatives and orders in combat can sometimes take as long as an entire running gunfight in D6. In one game the players are still discussing how to optimize half-meaningless details while in the other the players have already finished the scene and stumbled upon their next objective.
Rule systems are sort of like genres. Some instruments are better choices for certain kinds of music, some languages are better choices for certain kinds of stories, some tools are better choices for certain kinds of projects. My experience is that D&D-style rulesets are discordant, confusing, clumsy choices for immersion into a Star Wars setting.
Not having read/played Star Wars d6, I cannot really comment on the system. I might love it or I might not? It's hard to say. I use the systems my players already are familiar with and that tends to be the point of immersion. Things tend to run smoothly when you're already familiar with them. In terms of D&D specifically I don't really know just how more "basic" you can get than 5E in the current genre of D&D-like RPGs?
Again, I can't speak to SWd6 but in 5E and SW5e It takes me a between 5 to 10 minutes to make a 1st level character. That is, of course, that I'm going in knowing what I want to play. I want to play a Mandalorian Warrior. Easy
Race: variant human
Class: Fighter (no need to figure out Archetype yet)
Stats: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: Athletics, Perception, Piloting, Survival
Background: Child of Mandalore
Feats: Durable* (background feat), Sidearm Mastery (racial)
Saves: Str +4, Con +4
Fighting Style: Sharpshooting
This took me about 8 minutes to do - minus the opening of pdfs on my phone. Last I'd have to do equipment, but even then it's simple.
Combat and what you can do in game-play is pretty typical of your common D&D games. This will vary greatly between groups. For us, we're fairly fast - even our 4E games at Paragon tier was averaging about 45 minutes an encounter (compared to people's on-line descriptions of taking hours). I dunno, but I'd love to give Star Wars d6 a look, it's convincing my group to try and learn a whole new system that is the difficult part. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 09:18:10
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
That's fair. Being sort of 'meh' about 5e myself Ive looked at other systems like 13th Age, the various Warhammer 40k RPGs, and even 5E Star Wars diverges enough that I like it better than normal 5e
For me SWD6 was always the best rule system for Star Wars. Quick, simple, fun. Make characters and get things moving in just a few minutes, no need for endless pages of charts and stat blocks, you can keep on rolling forward with the same handful of dice while keeping the game and the story and the action flowing nonstop.
A D&D-based ruleset adds complexity and detail which actually discourages fast-paced action narrative. It slows and halts the flow too easily, it gets bogged down by trivial crumbs of lore too easily, it distracts from the general Star Wars setting by shifting towards pages of intricate specifics, away from the spaceships and stormtroopers firing their blasters at you. In D&D a simple thing like determining unit initiatives and orders in combat can sometimes take as long as an entire running gunfight in D6. In one game the players are still discussing how to optimize half-meaningless details while in the other the players have already finished the scene and stumbled upon their next objective.
Rule systems are sort of like genres. Some instruments are better choices for certain kinds of music, some languages are better choices for certain kinds of stories, some tools are better choices for certain kinds of projects. My experience is that D&D-style rulesets are discordant, confusing, clumsy choices for immersion into a Star Wars setting. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 08:56:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not content with it... I'm just waiting for the inevitable release of 6E and hoping the changing design mandates will finally swing back towards lore.
I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon. By all reports, 5e is a pretty resounding success to the likes of which D&D hasn't seen. Take into account their release model, time tables, and popularity and we might be seeing 5e as an edition and the treatment of the Realms for a decade or more.
I didn't say it would be soon -- just that it was inevitable.
Again, not satisfied with the state of affairs, but it just means KP and Paizo will continue to get more of my gaming dollars. That's been the case for a long time, now, anyway.
That's fair. Being sort of 'meh' about 5e myself Ive looked at other systems like 13th Age, the various Warhammer 40k RPGs, and even 5E Star Wars diverges enough that I like it better than normal 5e |
| Diffan |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 08:54:48
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Diffan,
I surmise it will be a continual split in the communities. Some amount will stick with the pre-Spellplague, pre-5e option, and the rest go the other way. The beautiful thing for me is: there is nothing for WotC, likely, to offer me that I don't have in my collection practically owning everything. With a community like Candlekeep as well, it allows connections with the pre-SP and pre-5e folk to keep that going. Good stuff apparently, for everyone! :)
Best regards,
There are those who do both. Like myself, I often use the era when we play in certain editions and we change those out quite a bit. I always use Canon like a buffet tho, so I'll take 5e Lore concepts and adapt them to a 4e game or use it retroactively in a 3.5 one |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 03:57:49
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not content with it... I'm just waiting for the inevitable release of 6E and hoping the changing design mandates will finally swing back towards lore.
I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon. By all reports, 5e is a pretty resounding success to the likes of which D&D hasn't seen. Take into account their release model, time tables, and popularity and we might be seeing 5e as an edition and the treatment of the Realms for a decade or more.
I didn't say it would be soon -- just that it was inevitable.
Again, not satisfied with the state of affairs, but it just means KP and Paizo will continue to get more of my gaming dollars. That's been the case for a long time, now, anyway. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 01:10:48
Great Reader Diffan,
I surmise it will be a continual split in the communities. Some amount will stick with the pre-Spellplague, pre-5e option, and the rest go the other way. The beautiful thing for me is: there is nothing for WotC, likely, to offer me that I don't have in my collection practically owning everything. With a community like Candlekeep as well, it allows connections with the pre-SP and pre-5e folk to keep that going. Good stuff apparently, for everyone! :)
Best regards,
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 23 Dec 2020 : 00:08:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not content with it... I'm just waiting for the inevitable release of 6E and hoping the changing design mandates will finally swing back towards lore.
I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon. By all reports, 5e is a pretty resounding success to the likes of which D&D hasn't seen. Take into account their release model, time tables, and popularity and we might be seeing 5e as an edition and the treatment of the Realms for a decade or more. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Dec 2020 : 05:38:12
Senior Scribe keftiu,
quote:
It’s always tickled me that folks who bemoaned static Eberron were content to hit the pause button on the Realms - hope I’m not picking too much fun.
Oh no. I think, at least most of us anyhow, around here have rather thick skin. Master Rupert's is wooly apparently, but I surmise enough to give him a legit natural AC bonus to a bit of picking. ;)
As to static, I'm definitely not happy with the Realms not moving forward, but since I am not involved with WotC as an employee, I have no influence and therefore I have to decide if I would rather have a static Realms living in the past, or a Realms that is making "progress." I'm not interested in their progress, so I stick with the past.
As to Eberron, I've never been impressed with it. It just didn't have an appealing draw for me. Of course, that is just me. It sounds like there are plenty of folk out there that like it a great deal, which is awesome! :)
Best regards,
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Dec 2020 : 04:31:48
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Senior Scribe keftiu,
haha, no lie there. The Realms is stuck in a quagmire. I'm just thankful that there is such a robust Realms setting pre-Spellplague that I can live in the past with the stuff I prefer, and let whatever D&D/Forgotten Realms is doing, go on without me. :) A truly happy day. Especially with great communities like Candlekeep. :)
Best regards,
It’s always tickled me that folks who bemoaned static Eberron were content to hit the pause button on the Realms - hope I’m not picking too much fun.
Exploring Eberron is well worth a read, I promise. The planes in particular get some fascinating presentations, and there’s a bunch of info on aquatic civilizations that I thought felt super fresh.
I'm not content with it... I'm just waiting for the inevitable release of 6E and hoping the changing design mandates will finally swing back towards lore. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 21 Dec 2020 : 04:19:47
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Senior Scribe keftiu,
haha, no lie there. The Realms is stuck in a quagmire. I'm just thankful that there is such a robust Realms setting pre-Spellplague that I can live in the past with the stuff I prefer, and let whatever D&D/Forgotten Realms is doing, go on without me. :) A truly happy day. Especially with great communities like Candlekeep. :)
Best regards,
It’s always tickled me that folks who bemoaned static Eberron were content to hit the pause button on the Realms - hope I’m not picking too much fun.
Exploring Eberron is well worth a read, I promise. The planes in particular get some fascinating presentations, and there’s a bunch of info on aquatic civilizations that I thought felt super fresh. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 22:31:54
Senior Scribe keftiu,
haha, no lie there. The Realms is stuck in a quagmire. I'm just thankful that there is such a robust Realms setting pre-Spellplague that I can live in the past with the stuff I prefer, and let whatever D&D/Forgotten Realms is doing, go on without me. :) A truly happy day. Especially with great communities like Candlekeep. :)
Best regards,
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 22:29:44
Master Rupert,
Same here. I'm done supporting WotC. I totally support the capitalism upon which they make their free market choices to do as they please, but I also support my free market choice to not give them my money and to try to convince others to do the same. I've stopped supporting Paizo though as well with 2.0. It's not anything I am mechanically interested in at all, and I use pre-Spellplague Realms, so their setting is irrelevant for me too.
Now... KoboldPress and Frog God Games/Necromancer Games. I love that stuff. :)
Best regards,
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 18:27:23
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah. Been meaning to get that one, myself. Eberron is an interesting setting, though its static nature kept me from getting more into it.
How has that moving timeline been treating the Realms lately :p
WotC has barely gotten any money from me, of late, I have little interest in their current products, and most of my gaming money is going to Paizo or Kobold Press. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 09:32:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Worth noting that one of the top-selling Guild releases ever is a massive lore expansion written by the setting’s creator.
I've not looked to see what the top-selling things are, but Ed's work being up there does not surprise me.
If anything, it's a clear message to WotC about what people want.
Sorry, brainfart: the missing word in my post there is “Eberron.” Keith Baker is who I’m talking about, not Ed - though I know he’s contributed to one or two Guild releases (I read one and was pretty unimpressed).
Ah. Been meaning to get that one, myself. Eberron is an interesting setting, though its static nature kept me from getting more into it.
How has that moving timeline been treating the Realms lately :p |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 06:04:10
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Worth noting that one of the top-selling Guild releases ever is a massive lore expansion written by the setting’s creator.
I've not looked to see what the top-selling things are, but Ed's work being up there does not surprise me.
If anything, it's a clear message to WotC about what people want.
Sorry, brainfart: the missing word in my post there is “Eberron.” Keith Baker is who I’m talking about, not Ed - though I know he’s contributed to one or two Guild releases (I read one and was pretty unimpressed).
Ah. Been meaning to get that one, myself. Eberron is an interesting setting, though its static nature kept me from getting more into it. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 05:25:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Worth noting that one of the top-selling Guild releases ever is a massive lore expansion written by the setting’s creator.
I've not looked to see what the top-selling things are, but Ed's work being up there does not surprise me.
If anything, it's a clear message to WotC about what people want.
Sorry, brainfart: the missing word in my post there is “Eberron.” Keith Baker is who I’m talking about, not Ed - though I know he’s contributed to one or two Guild releases (I read one and was pretty unimpressed). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 03:11:14
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Worth noting that one of the top-selling Guild releases ever is a massive lore expansion written by the setting’s creator.
I've not looked to see what the top-selling things are, but Ed's work being up there does not surprise me.
If anything, it's a clear message to WotC about what people want. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 03:07:05
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Wooly, I have my view on why nothing has been taken up as “official” by WotC and I suspect that the reasons are multifactorial. Not wanting to be “bound” in an area or on a topic they might want to play with in the future; in real terms the fact that that kind of quality exists in a handful of products that aren’t adventures (and they do the adventures); ego; and protecting their jobs. In real terms, the vast majority of fairly decent DMs Guild products are what I call “cookie cutters”. Products that are piggy-backing off the latest official release and reflect generic stuff with some topical FR labeling on it. Look how much cold/Arctic - ostensibly Icewind Dale - stuff has hit the Guild since RotFM was released. That material is by far the most prevalent at the Guild. Not surprised that WotC hasn’t picked up any of that stuff.
— George Krashos
I don't really see it as protecting their jobs when what they are doing is exactly what I'm proposing: looking for something where someone else has done the work already, and then slapping a 5E WotC logo on it.
I agree on being bound by something, though. That seems to be another part of the current design mandate: don't nail anything down unless it's absolutely necessary, and even then, try to avoid it.
There is a lot of cookie-cutter stuff, though. It's part of why I stopped looking at the DM's Guild: I got tired of seeing Newest Release Tangential Product #134 or Rehashed Backgrounds/Character Class/NPC Class #3,892. For a while, I was trying to look through the new releases on a regular basis, but I simply got overwhelmed by tie-ins and endless re-adaptations of rules-based content.
And while I have gotten some good stuff from the DM's Guild, there's been some that was meh, and one that was so poorly done I have a hard time believing anyone thought it worth uploading -- the author didn't even appear to have run a spellcheck on it. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 01:32:58
Worth noting that one of the top-selling Guild releases ever is a massive Eberron lore expansion written by the setting’s creator. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 20:37:21
Wooly, I have my view on why nothing has been taken up as “official” by WotC and I suspect that the reasons are multifactorial. Not wanting to be “bound” in an area or on a topic they might want to play with in the future; in real terms the fact that that kind of quality exists in a handful of products that aren’t adventures (and they do the adventures); ego; and protecting their jobs. In real terms, the vast majority of fairly decent DMs Guild products are what I call “cookie cutters”. Products that are piggy-backing off the latest official release and reflect generic stuff with some topical FR labeling on it. Look how much cold/Arctic - ostensibly Icewind Dale - stuff has hit the Guild since RotFM was released. That material is by far the most prevalent at the Guild. Not surprised that WotC hasn’t picked up any of that stuff.
— George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 17:38:42
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I was really intrigued by the potential of the DMs Guild when the concept was first announced and have published some little things there, most of which were the free handouts I organised for the Candlekeep seminars at Gen Con over 4 or so years. But unless you have a marketing vehicle/plan the volume of daily releases on the site (and the website format) means that your release gets swamped and forgotten pretty dang quick. That and it appears that every customer is expecting full WotC production values with full color art, slick backgrounds and formatting, etc. I've seen decent FR releases there get criticised for having B&W art ... smh. Clearly they never opened a Volo's Guide in their life.
The quality of products released there for my taste have been uneven and I've been more disappointed than impressed by what I've read. But then again, I'm a bit tough to impress when it comes to Realms work, although I concede that not all my offerings have been met with acclaim (I'm looking at you, two-star reviewer of my - free - Saints of Impiltur piece there ...   ). So there it is.
All I know for sure is that the Guild is easy, easy money for WotC. Effortless. And genius on their part.
-- George Krashos
Easy money, yes, but they could be doing so much more with it. As I mentioned, I fully expected, when it was announced, that they'd be actively looking for good stuff to snap up and officially publish, like they did with the Grand History -- but they haven't done that. IIRC, their terms and conditions for the site explicitly give them that option.
It's particularly puzzling given their current approach of finding ways to put out content with minimal work. |
| Returnip |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 17:37:29
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
No one, thirty some plus years later, is all excited and interested that Rastilin or Elminster has a 18 intelligence...blah, blah, blah boring rules. But the story and lore about Rastilin or Elminster lives on for tons of fans to this day.
I have a hard time believing that. In the Baldur's Gate computer game there was loads of lore presented in books neatly woven into the game's story. But that doesn't stop people from trying to kill Drizzt and Elminster.
As a parallel, one of the first things I heard from an aquaintance as the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was released was "We've already fought and killed all the NPCs".
So yeah, some people are definitely interested in their stats.
quote:
There is this unbelievable little twist you can add to your toys that hooks millions of kids into being fans; and more then that..makes then lifetime fans. And it's that you add a story with some lore. He-Man, G.I. Joe, Transformers and many others are great examples.
I'm sure those people are most certainly in the minority. I loved playing with all those three in my youth, and apart from buying the new Transformers comic books in the early 21st century there's been little nostalgia and going back to them. I didn't even watch the GI Joe movies.
quote:
Then take video games. Once they were little more then a pixelated generic character on a screen. Then they added a story and lore....and became super popular.
I doubt that's why they became popular. Story yes, lore no. The shittons of books in Neverwinter Nights definitely wasn't read by a majority of the players. Of all the people I know who played the games I am the only one who read the books. And that's including people I know to be realms fans.
|
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 15:52:29
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
I agree with that. I mean, it is frickin' weird they don't try to engross more people in with more lore.
It's a hundred times as confusing....as it works. Greyhawk, Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms all have fans, to this day, because of the fiction, story and lore. No one, thirty some plus years later, is all excited and interested that Rastilin or Elminster has a 18 intelligence...blah, blah, blah boring rules. But the story and lore about Rastilin or Elminster lives on for tons of fans to this day.
You also see this with toys. A company can toss out some cheap plastic, dump it in front of some kids and say "here play with this". Toy companies have done this forever.
OR
There is this unbelievable little twist you can add to your toys that hooks millions of kids into being fans; and more then that..makes then lifetime fans. And it's that you add a story with some lore. He-Man, G.I. Joe, Transformers and many others are great examples.
Then take video games. Once they were little more then a pixelated generic character on a screen. Then they added a story and lore....and became super popular.
And yet Wizards is all like "wow, they will get so excited about the line that says +2 to attack"! |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 07:04:55
Master Arcanamach,
quote:
But they're missing so much good talent and sitting on their butts when it comes to expanding beyond the Sword Coast. And, frankly, I haven't been very impressed with most of their adventures (with the exception of their updated modules from days of yore...those have been pretty good, IMO). I'm also not a fan of shoehorning other settings into the Realms (I mean Acerak really doesn't belong here, ya know?). I honestly believe their sales would skyrocket even further if they'd just hire some of the talent available out there and show us more of the world Ed built during the current era. I know they'd likely just rehash Cormyr, the Dalelands and other well-established regions, but at least it would be something for us to consume.
I agree with that. I mean, it is frickin' weird they don't try to engross more people in with more lore. Of course, maybe the idea is to get them hooked on the rules, group fun, community, etc., then start that all up again.
I agree on the mixing of worlds issues. I mean, they should stop trying to be everything to everyone by making the everyone-everything world. haha It gets a little silly after a while.
Best regards,
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 05:55:47
I was really intrigued by the potential of the DMs Guild when the concept was first announced and have published some little things there, most of which were the free handouts I organised for the Candlekeep seminars at Gen Con over 4 or so years. But unless you have a marketing vehicle/plan the volume of daily releases on the site (and the website format) means that your release gets swamped and forgotten pretty dang quick. That and it appears that every customer is expecting full WotC production values with full color art, slick backgrounds and formatting, etc. I've seen decent FR releases there get criticised for having B&W art ... smh. Clearly they never opened a Volo's Guide in their life.
The quality of products released there for my taste have been uneven and I've been more disappointed than impressed by what I've read. But then again, I'm a bit tough to impress when it comes to Realms work, although I concede that not all my offerings have been met with acclaim (I'm looking at you, two-star reviewer of my - free - Saints of Impiltur piece there ... ). So there it is.
All I know for sure is that the Guild is easy, easy money for WotC. Effortless. And genius on their part.
-- George Krashos |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 18 Dec 2020 : 11:39:33
Originally posted by Wooly
quote:
During one of the online things, someone joked that a particular DM's Guild product would certainly earn "dollars" for its author.
There is good stuff on there, but the site is, overall, kind of a niche thing -- and the money has to be split with the DM's Guild. I'm fairly certain that few contributors are getting even enough for a nice meal out of it.
Which is sad... I really thought, when the DM's Guild was introduced, that it was going to be a way for WotC to trial new products and look for new talent. I thought they'd snap up and reprint some things, like they did with Brian R. James's Grand History of the Realms, or look at popular products and say "hey, people really like this guy's stuff, and we've looked at it and it's good -- let's throw an official project his way!"
And maybe they originally intended to do that... But as it stands, it's not much more than a fan site that WotC lets slide. Yet another in a string of missed opportunities, I feel.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
I've been growing tired of my negative opinions of WotC lately but it's hard. I really like 5e as a rules system. In fact, I think it's the best version of DnD so far, and that comes from someone who LOVED 2e.
But they're missing so much good talent and sitting on their butts when it comes to expanding beyond the Sword Coast. And, frankly, I haven't been very impressed with most of their adventures (with the exception of their updated modules from days of yore...those have been pretty good, IMO). I'm also not a fan of shoehorning other settings into the Realms (I mean Acerak really doesn't belong here, ya know?).
I honestly believe their sales would skyrocket even further if they'd just hire some of the talent available out there and show us more of the world Ed built during the current era. I know they'd likely just rehash Cormyr, the Dalelands and other well-established regions, but at least it would be something for us to consume. |
| Azar |
Posted - 18 Dec 2020 : 10:08:08
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
The Guild takes a full half, so you can crunch those numbers accordingly. I've made about $600 off my one book.
That's a good amount... Over how long a period was this amount earned?
Two years, though the vast majority of it came in during the first two or three months. Around $1300 in sales isn’t half bad, considering it’s a PWYW release.
Wow. Color me a glowing shamrock.
I have no idea what that means.
Also: it’s Blessed of The Traveler, my guide to transgender characters and culture in Eberron. I take at least partial credit for Keith including transition services at House Jorasco clinics in Exploring Eberron. Would feel wasteful not to plug it :p
Shamrock green...a bright shamrock green. I'm envious that you took what I imagine is your greatest attribute and used it to turn a profit through that marketplace. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 18 Dec 2020 : 08:46:06
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
The Guild takes a full half, so you can crunch those numbers accordingly. I've made about $600 off my one book.
That's a good amount... Over how long a period was this amount earned?
Two years, though the vast majority of it came in during the first two or three months. Around $1300 in sales isn’t half bad, considering it’s a PWYW release.
Wow. Color me a glowing shamrock.
I have no idea what that means.
Also: it’s Blessed of The Traveler, my guide to transgender characters and culture in Eberron. I take at least partial credit for Keith including transition services at House Jorasco clinics in Exploring Eberron. Would feel wasteful not to plug it :p |
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