Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Adventuring
 Multi-class rogue/

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert Email Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]
Rolling Eyes [8|] Confused [?!:] Help [?:] King [3|:]
Laughing [:OD] What [W] Oooohh [:H] Down [:E]

  Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
    

T O P I C    R E V I E W
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 07:32:42
If you're a rogue of a particular deity, and you agree to the call of a particular god, what class combo would you choose?
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 15 Nov 2020 : 18:40:40
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

I believe so, if heavy RP is not incorporated. I feel that's how it goes with any high level characters though. It shouldn't be about crunch at high levels, it should be about consequences of using such power, etc. No matter how powerful you are, those consequences will stay and affect a character and groups legacy, and soul.

Best regards,





Delnyn Posted - 14 Nov 2020 : 18:16:08
Sometimes I wonder if we say "rogue" when we really mean "skillmonkey". Especially in high level/epic adventures, of course antagonists account for magic and psionics, or on other planes, magic does not work as intended, if at all. (I adopted many of the planar restrictions on magic and psionics from 1st and 2nd edition into 3.x edition games by the way.)

In this light, a rogue is less a thief and more an expert. Maybe the player tells you she wants the Education regional feat at 1st level and does not give a toss about sneak attack or even stealth and agility features (no evasion or defensive roll). Her character fills the role of the party's "professor" and "MacGuyver" as effectively as any wizard. (Here Craft[alchemy] and Speak Language would be class skills as alternate class features.) Spellcasters should not monopolize the knowledge is power role.
cpthero2 Posted - 08 Nov 2020 : 17:29:57
Great Reader Ayrik,

quote:
To my sensibilities, a rogue character being relegated to a secondary/supporting/lesser role doesn't represent an underpowered class.


Agreed.

quote:
It represents a lack of attention by the DM or the campaign in utilizing the special skills a rogue can bring to the party.


I will preface my response to your statement with the understanding that when I run my campaigns, I don't have characters running them with the idea that they are a "rogue" persay. They have a set of skills that are colloquially referred to as roguish skills. The idea being they have something in their "Profession" skill and thus are 'x', but have a certain set of talents for ease of getting a character going.

I feel in telling a story that places a mandate, implied or otherwise, upon the DM to facilitate the utility of a character is a false premise from the onset. Are they a rogue, or are they a person, with a profession, etc., that happens to have those roguish skills? It pushes characters down a path that may or may not be their choice, and I like to leave those options open for development on their terms. In that case the PC's effectively look for prompts in the story from a DM to validate their function, defined by a class. In what I will call a linear progression game (a story running a pre-determined path), that does makes sense. However, if characters are really going to have the freedom to develop their own story apart and free from a pre-determined adventure/campaign, then it seems necessary to have the DM not push them into that role.

quote:
A rogue (or rogue multiclass) is not inferior to a warrior, wizard, or priest. Rogue characters are seen as unessential in many campaigns (especially at higher levels, where the warrior can tank and the spellcasters can do pretty much anything) simply because the campaigns are designed and implemented from the perspective of making the mighty warriors and mighty spellcasters shine.


I really feel that rogues, as well as diviners, or pick any other characters that don't fill the DPS/AOE/Agro function for the swarm and destroy outcome are "seen as unessential." Which is too bad, because stories are about the people/characters, as opposed to an emphasis being on their prowess in 'x' situation. Well, at least that is the high horse I am sitting on when I declare that, haha.

quote:
A cunning rogue in the party is indispensable in countless situations. Old-style Tomb of Horrors or Undermountain dungeon crawls, intrigue-laden Ruins of Adventure (Eye of the Beholder) or Waterdeep city adventures, pretty much any situation which interacts with Zhents, guilds, merchants, or travels through seedier corners of the Realms (like Westgate, Luskan, Baldur's Gate, Tantras, Calaunt, half of Sembia, etc).


I will say, most certainly, in "dungeon-crawl" environments, you are 100% correct there.

quote:
If the rogue is shut down or underplayed then it's really because of authors (and/or DMs) have too much bias towards glorious heroics in battle.


As above, yes. I agree 100% again. That's why I really prefer to have character's developed as fully fleshed people before the campaign begins and have the focus be on a story that allows them to tell, steer, and drive it with the emphasis on the person first and combat prowess second.

quote:
Compare to other RPGs where the rogue-type character (the netrunner, the decker, the outlaw, the procurer, guildsman, and so many more) is arguably the most critical member of the group, the one whose skills determine the fulcrum of success or failure for the mission. Where the novels and modules are written to emphasize what they can do in detail, where the other (fighter-like, wizard-like, priest-like) characters are relegated to "henchman" roles.


You make a really great point here. A lot of games, such as GURPS as well, make it to where avoiding danger is preferable because as in real life, when you take that .357 magnum round, a mace to the head, a laser hit, etc., you're usually toast.

Just to be clear, not being critical of any approach you utilize. I only put forward another set of thoughts on how to contend with certain character archetypes, and to discuss them. :)

Best regards,





Ayrik Posted - 07 Nov 2020 : 21:06:54
To my sensibilities, a rogue character being relegated to a secondary/supporting/lesser role doesn't represent an underpowered class. It represents a lack of attention by the DM or the campaign in utilizing the special skills a rogue can bring to the party.

A rogue (or rogue multiclass) is not inferior to a warrior, wizard, or priest. Rogue characters are seen as unessential in many campaigns (especially at higher levels, where the warrior can tank and the spellcasters can do pretty much anything) simply because the campaigns are designed and implemented from the perspective of making the mighty warriors and mighty spellcasters shine.

A cunning rogue in the party is indispensable in countless situations. Old-style Tomb of Horrors or Undermountain dungeon crawls, intrigue-laden Ruins of Adventure (Eye of the Beholder) or Waterdeep city adventures, pretty much any situation which interacts with Zhents, guilds, merchants, or travels through seedier corners of the Realms (like Westgate, Luskan, Baldur's Gate, Tantras, Calaunt, half of Sembia, etc). If the rogue is shut down or underplayed then it's really because of authors (and/or DMs) have too much bias towards glorious heroics in battle.

Compare to other RPGs where the rogue-type character (the netrunner, the decker, the outlaw, the procurer, guildsman, and so many more) is arguably the most critical member of the group, the one whose skills determine the fulcrum of success or failure for the mission. Where the novels and modules are written to emphasize what they can do in detail, where the other (fighter-like, wizard-like, priest-like) characters are relegated to "henchman" roles.
cpthero2 Posted - 07 Nov 2020 : 20:21:30
Master Rupert,

quote:
So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



quote:
Bingo!!


quote:
I can't imagine anyone willingly playing the peon for someone else's characters.


I can definitely see why, with the way it was phrased from Master Copper Elven Vampire, that his idea would come across (as it did) poorly.

I actually do have players play characters that do in fact end up being servants of another character, or possibly a scribe, apprentice, etc. Though, to be clear, the utility of that is done through heavy RP, and it is never meant to produce a sense of being a lesser player, but rather a mechanism to produce greater RP and a unique playing experience.

It sounds like to me from what Master Copper Elven Vampire was getting at, sadly, was not a true RP situation, but rather one that was using the PC's as mice. That's too bad. That doesn't sound good.

I just wanted to toss out there that there are ways to make it happen (I do in my campaigns as I said) that are not as antagonistic as was presented.

Best regards,

The Arcanamach Posted - 28 Aug 2020 : 15:59:18
For some reason I just like voting in polls but this one was a bit 'meh' to me. As pointed out earlier, it really depends on the deity you're following and not all viable options were put in. Cleric can be with any god, obviously. A war deity? Fighter or something similar (not an option above). Also, if you're playing 5e then paladins do not have to be lawful - just embody their deities' beliefs. Besides, one can play a rogue turned paladin with a redemption arc.

Regardless, I voted rogue/wizard because I love arcane trickster types and, well, MAGIC.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 03:07:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Like holy wow... are you trying to pick a fight with someone who actually lives and sleeps by the d20 system? A 1st level PC can answer that question just after reading the basic rules.

Once again my friend... we see the d20 system with different dice.



I don't care what rule system you live by. I've no idea why you keep bringing it up.

And no, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just pointing out that saying you aren't interested in something and then not talking about anything else is a contradiction.



Right. Okay. It's a moot point then.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 02:27:53
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Like holy wow... are you trying to pick a fight with someone who actually lives and sleeps by the d20 system? A 1st level PC can answer that question just after reading the basic rules.

Once again my friend... we see the d20 system with different dice.



I don't care what rule system you live by. I've no idea why you keep bringing it up.

And no, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just pointing out that saying you aren't interested in something and then not talking about anything else is a contradiction.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 02:25:46
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Yes. Indeed. When your PC's reach a certain level then everything becomes epic. DUH!! wow. Isn't that 3.5 101?



You miss my point. You say you don't want to be powerful -- but everything you post is about epic level play. I'm not saying there's anything bad about epic level play, but if all you talk about is X, saying you're not interested in it doesn't hold any water.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 01:31:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Like holy wow... are you trying to pick a fight with someone who actually lives and sleeps by the d20 system? A 1st level PC can answer that question just after reading the basic rules.

Once again my friend... we see the d20 system with different dice.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 01:25:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?



Yes. Indeed. When your PC's reach a certain level then everything becomes epic. DUH!! wow. Isn't that 3.5 101?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 27 Mar 2020 : 21:09:40
You're not looking to be powerful, but you focus just on epic campaigns?
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 27 Mar 2020 : 19:55:45
I think you all misunderstand me. My PC's and NPC's are not looking to be powerful or ultra death-slaying demi-humans. lol. Our group prefers to be challenged and take on classes and class-combos that don't always give you Max effect for your level for maximum awesomeness, but rather, a combined max of skill-sets and feats, PrC's and knowing how to play the game as a Rogue/ "whatever".

Once again my good friends, our campaign is an elven rogues guild. All 6 heads at our table follow or worship Erevan Ilesere. So everything we create I put on Candlekeep.

LordofBones Posted - 25 Mar 2020 : 05:28:12
The first is terrible. Why are you slapping arcane devotee with assassin? You're only getting 4th level spells.

The second doesn't need rogue. Go monk. Monk 2/cleric 8/SF 10 is a melee powerhouse.

The fixation on how rogues are powerful is especially funny when you consider that it's a t4 class. I like rogues, but let's not pretend that skill tricks are unique to them.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 25 Mar 2020 : 04:35:28
What if I don't care about Erevan Ilesere? What if I don't want to play a rogue, or I want to play one that's -- gasp! -- just a single class?

And even if I did care about him, you've still not explained why it's so great to be utterly useless, or how it's a challenge to have no choice but to sit back and let everyone else do everything else.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 25 Mar 2020 : 03:56:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Where's the challenge in not being able to do a damn thing except for wait for someone to bail you out? How is a person supposed to have any sense of accomplishment in this campaign? You have them doing minor things that more powerful people could do if it wasn't beneath them, and then they wait to get rescued.

Where does the fun come into this?

"Oh, let me tie your shoes for you, Great Warrior! Now, please rescue me from this thing I couldn't even annoy with a string of critical hits!"



Ha!! That is a very mundane way to think of the game. You're doing the same things that you would in a party of your peers, except now it's within the scope of an epic adventure or module. If you're the babysitter, then game on. If you're the Basbysitti... then game on again.

Either way, the challenge is there to be had. I'm dumbfounded that you cannot see this. D&D is not hack and slash, but mind over matter and skill over requisite. The hack and slash come after skill-tricks and skill-feats are placed on the table.

Do you even play the Complete Scoundrel supplement?

Skill-tricks alone can change combat, not to mention Skill-feats and the skill-point system.

Try a Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Devotee of Erevan Ilesere. That combo alone will get you very far in any campaign.

Or even try Rogue/Cleric/Sacred Fist of Erevan Ilesere. Who needs weapons when your fists, elbows, knees and feet are weapons? Yes, that is a great combo.

Wooly Rupert Posted - 25 Mar 2020 : 02:40:23
Where's the challenge in not being able to do a damn thing except for wait for someone to bail you out? How is a person supposed to have any sense of accomplishment in this campaign? You have them doing minor things that more powerful people could do if it wasn't beneath them, and then they wait to get rescued.

Where does the fun come into this?

"Oh, let me tie your shoes for you, Great Warrior! Now, please rescue me from this thing I couldn't even annoy with a string of critical hits!"
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 24 Mar 2020 : 23:42:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You, as the epic player, may think it's fun to be a useless peon dragged along on an adventure that you can't help with. I can guarantee you'd find few people that wouldd agree.



Wow... really?

To be the Pissasnt, would be a great challenge. To protect that person would be a greater challenge. Sorry I see things differently.

I just laid out a great example of DM play. If you don't see it then maybe we should question your knowledge of how D&D works.

As DM I can do anything... I try to play within the rules. Sometimes it calls for divine intervention I guess at lower levels. Otherwise... I'm on spot. I'm on call. I'm on tag. I get the job done!

Did you even read my DM approach? I could clearly have the 10th level rogue die if the 25th level PC didn't intervene. The game is up to the players.... The DM just makes the story move along.

Sure, you could have all PC's die in your Module, but in the end you have pissed friends who want to play a fair game.

Objective; Take the Shadow Stone and bring it to the elves of Myth Drannor.Not to die; Use every skill and feat you have, including skill-feats and Skill-tricks that change how you do things.

If you're a trickster, then you're golden. Your skill-tricks alone can cause a difference. Add your skill feats to the mix and you're nearly unstoppable.

Three levels in any 3'rd level class in CS will rock you hard.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Mar 2020 : 21:25:22
You, as the epic player, may think it's fun to be a useless peon dragged along on an adventure that you can't help with. I can guarantee you'd find few people that wouldd agree.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 24 Mar 2020 : 19:52:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



Bingo!!



I can't imagine anyone willingly playing the peon for someone else's characters.



I can. Maybe they were all put into place by forces unseen? Maybe the low-level PC has some hidden power that the Epic's know little about, except that it's imperative to keep him/her alive. I could seriously play a Low-level PC with Epics any day. Henchman, Lacky, whatever. It's a great way to level up quickly and see how others play epic level PC's. I've never played a game that was "fair" or DM'd a game that was "fair" so to say.

I don't try to kill the PC's or NPC's, but if I'm playing a Mezzoloth against the party, then I expect them to know how to play. I.E. use your skills and feats and abilities accordingly for your character to succeed.

Say you're a 10'th level Rogue... playing with Epic PC's that are all 21'st level to 25'th level. You can still find trap doors, disable or bypass traps, sneak attack to hurt or distract the enemy as your companion lays the killing blow. Or maybe you have a unique profession that needs to be preserved and only you can perform.

Maybe you're the only surviving blood member of a particular family line and epic beastie types want you dead. Maybe the Blood-Coven of The Vampire Manshoon wants you turned in a vampire for their own needs and as a 10th level rogue you cannot survive on your own.

IDK... I can see many possibilities to be a LL PC in a epic game, even as a Liability.

And if I were playing one of the said epic PC's then I'd have no problem with the challenge of helping babysit a much weaker PC. I mean, that makes for a great game.

Imagine this... 10'th level rogue and last of his blood line throws a perfectly aimed dagger at the Abyssal Retriever 60 feet away from him and bounces off the creatures eye. The 10th level rogue is frustrated that his dagger was not enchanted, for the trow was a dead-aim and should have hit.

The Retriever; a monstrous spider-like denizen of the lower planes turned its multiple eyes on the rogue. Without thought, seeing the target in question, the demon-spider rushed at the rogue with stunning speed.

The 10th level rogue broke the bonds of the fear and terror the Retriever placed on him and he darted backwards with twin shortswords now in hand.

As the spider-demon from the lower planes closed quickly on the rogue, another character was paying close attention amidst the chaos of the battle and suddenly burst into lightning-quick motion.

Just then, not even 10 feet away from the doomed rogue, a Star elf Rogue/ Duskblade appeared on top of the Retrievers back with two swords drawn and ready to plunge. The Star elf was successful on his Sneak Attack and actually rolled a Critical hit for the sneak attack as well. On top of a successful critical hit with a sneak attack, the star elf already had his blade suffused with the spell power of Disintegration. Within a few quick actions the demon-spider was reduced to nothingness as the star elf rogue/ Duskblade hurried the 10th level rogue to better shelter.

Just saying.... I see nothing wrong with that role in a game on either ends of the game-play.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 Mar 2020 : 02:47:28
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



Bingo!!



I can't imagine anyone willingly playing the peon for someone else's characters.
Delnyn Posted - 23 Mar 2020 : 00:13:52
This issue hits home for me. My namesake and the epic party in which he was the so-called "buffbot" had to rescue wood elven hostages from Menzoberranzan. The wood elves were non-combatants. Talk about babysitting, even though the elves are reasonably good troopers. It was a pain in the arse making sure the drow - and other Underdark baddies! - did not kill any of the elves as the party made its way out of Menzoberranzan and the Underdark. Remember faezress interferes with divination and teleportation magic, so those shortcuts were not a feasible option.

I would surmise that epic PC's would generally resent being put in a similar caretaker position with lower-level PC's. Please clear this with all parties before even attempting such a mission. I have some really bad feelings about it.

Now that I think about it, here is a quest for an super-duper epic party. [sarcasm]Rescue and babysit 1st level human commoners from Asmodeus' fortress of Malsheem until everyone returns safely to the Prime Material Plane.[/sarcasm]
Delnyn Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 23:54:20
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



Bingo!!



Wouldn't it be more productive if the lower level characters have the own separate mission in another place? The progress, success or failure of the lower level characters impacts the progress, success or failure of the epic level characters. So the lower level characters do not accompany the epic level characters to the 88th layer of the Abyss and fight Demogorgon in his fortress surrounded by servitor demons. Instead, they
  • delay or disrupt cult operations
  • intercept messages and infiltrating demons to and from the Abyss
  • garner spiritual, legal and possibly military support from churches, governments and other organizations
  • collect spells and equipment for the epic characters and deny equipment to Demogorgon's enemies.


How well the lower-level characters perform their mission will make the epic character's mission easier or potentially impossible. This raises the stakes for low-level characters without putting them into impossible situations. The last thing epic characters need is to, well, babysit their henchmen while fighting Demogorgon or some other cosmic threat.
LordofBones Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 22:57:54
That's... fairly insulting.

You're telling the guy his character can tag along as the lackey.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 22:36:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



Bingo!!

Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2021 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000