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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Seethyr Posted - 28 Sep 2020 : 17:18:25
I kind of wanted to open up a part of the forum for discussing Rime of the Forstmaiden and its implications with the assumption that everyone who looks at the thread has already read through it. If you are planning on playing the adventure, by all that is holy, please stop reading now!

Anyway, some of the implications in the adventure are incredibly exciting or terrifying depending on your standpoint and preferences. Some of those ideas have been discussed in other threads as well and I will try not to rehash them.

Some of the main things I am focused on are the following, but please feel free to add to this!

1. Creating magen (what a cool concept to bring from Mystara!)
2. Vecna???? Vecna was in the Realms at some point?
3. The black obelisks as a reset (I think other threads discussed this a bit)
4. Are there other flying cities that crashed in off the charts regions we don't know about? That would be a fun homebrew. (hrmmm Maztica, Lopango, Anchorome, Katashaka anyone?)
5. Combine Scroll of the Comet and the Tarrasque Summoning and your 12th level PCs are suddenly leveling a city.

Reading through that last adventure chapter really made me feel like the authors just went no-holds barred gonzo style writing which I was initially horrified by, but now I am thinking is actually pretty cool. the adventure brought back a sense of wonder for magic for me that has been lacking recently because of how carefully controlled all the balance issues are in 5e. I found myself excited once again that there is magic out there beyond the bounds of CR vs Party Level balance. It can wreck a game, or make it infinitely more exciting. But that is just my opinion. What is yours?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Wooly Rupert Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 03:09:57
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Veritas

To be frank, after the many limitations to temporal shenanigans in the Realms, having a few obelisks that reset the world, presumably including the deities, seems like a headscratcher. I can imagine Ao facepalming after all that recent work. That seems like something every major power would lock down.


-That's a good point. I mean, at the end of the day, nothing needs to necessarily be justified with in-setting logic, but trying to figure out the logistics of how it would seems...uhhh difficult. The only thing I can think of regarding deities is that if the physical world shifted back, worship would as well, so deities who no longer are around would be getting worship again, which would fuel them to some degree, though whether or not enough to bring them back to life, or uncombine them, or whatever else is anyone's guess.



Well, supposedly, all the deities are back -- though as I've pointed out, we've no idea how they're defining "all." The 4E divine changes have been undone, but what about other deities? Did Auppenser wake up? Murdane, Valigan Thirdborn, and Ibrandul were all introduced with "there was this deity, but they're dead now" -- so are they back? Ibrandul fell during the Time of Troubles, so he's fairly recent.

Their vague hand-waving is a mess.
Lord Karsus Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 00:58:34
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas

To be frank, after the many limitations to temporal shenanigans in the Realms, having a few obelisks that reset the world, presumably including the deities, seems like a headscratcher. I can imagine Ao facepalming after all that recent work. That seems like something every major power would lock down.


-That's a good point. I mean, at the end of the day, nothing needs to necessarily be justified with in-setting logic, but trying to figure out the logistics of how it would seems...uhhh difficult. The only thing I can think of regarding deities is that if the physical world shifted back, worship would as well, so deities who no longer are around would be getting worship again, which would fuel them to some degree, though whether or not enough to bring them back to life, or uncombine them, or whatever else is anyone's guess.
cpthero2 Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 04:42:33
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

quote:
Much as I have disliked the direction of certain things, I don't want a total reset, and doing it via time-travel or something similar seems particularly cheap (though it wouldn't be the first time cheap outs have been used).


Sadly, this is likely to come down to dollars. haha It could be an out for them to reset if they are not meeting projections. From a DM/players perspective...

As jacked up (speaking only for myself here of course) as it has been for 4e and 5e, with the Spellplague, etc., I could live with a go back in time to 1380DR'ish. I think the frustration would be there for sure for many folk, but the hardcore they would get back full throatedly. Additionally, it isn't like they are losing lots of 4d/5e lore, comparatively. haha

Best regards,



CorellonsDevout Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 00:29:27
Jumping in here. I'm not sure how I feel about the obelisks. I get that they are there for gamers to utilize if they want, but to have them in there, and then not do anything with them (other than what gamers do) makes me wonder. Then again, they could very well be putting them in their just for the sake of providing players with something, but I can't help but wonder if they aren't planning something with them.

Much as I have disliked the direction of certain things, I don't want a total reset, and doing it via time-travel or something similar seems particularly cheap (though it wouldn't be the first time cheap outs have been used).
cpthero2 Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 06:33:33
Learned Scribe Veritas,

I would just take a sick day that day, and if done well, come back happy about it. ;) haha

Best regards,




Veritas Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 02:21:37
To be frank, after the many limitations to temporal shenanigans in the Realms, having a few obelisks that reset the world, presumably including the deities, seems like a headscratcher. I can imagine Ao facepalming after all that recent work. That seems like something every major power would lock down.
cpthero2 Posted - 25 Oct 2020 : 20:23:23
Master Krashos,

All fair points. I feel the nostalgia one is a good one. It's quite difficult for me to want to participate in something at a certain point that feels as if it's been destroyed and then being told to "come have fun with us over here", from the people who did it. That's my view on it.

That being said, at the same time, I have literally heard a lot of new people to the Realms explain that they felt the "buy-in" was to great for time investment to play catch up with everyone that's been doing the Realms since the 80's. I get that. I remember playing Star Fleet Battles as a kid at conventions in the 80's and these guys that had been playing it since release in 1979 had a monstrous amount of knowledge that made me feel like I just couldn't get into it with that barrier to enter. Perhaps there is a bit of that in there too? Who knows.

Best regards,




George Krashos Posted - 24 Oct 2020 : 02:21:53
I'm not sure what "divide" you are talking about. Long time fans of any setting have shifting tastes and appreciation for product releases as time goes on, and I think that nostalgia kicks in to make some people feel that things were better "before".

I think WotC are simply writing products they think will sell. If that means leveraging off non-traditional Realms IP such as Acererak, Vecna, Strahd etc, they are more than willing to do so.

I think that they believe they have a good balance mix in their products to cater for new fans and old. Opinions will no doubt vary as to the truth of that belief.

They will continue to use the Realms as a backdrop for their quasi-adventure paths for as long as it suits them. Again, if some of the new settings they are looking to showcase show a sales pattern greater than what is normally seen in a product set in the Realms, they are likely to go back to that IP again. And again. And again. As long as the $$ are there. People seem to forget that they are running a business, not catering to a minority who want stuff a certain way. The "true" FR fans (whatever that means) are a small subset of the fanbase and not the sales arbiter for what WotC releases.

-- George Krashos
cpthero2 Posted - 23 Oct 2020 : 22:04:46
Master Krashos,

I agree with that outlook. I am curious about your view on something related to this topic broadly, since you've written so much lore yourself.

Do you feel, hypothetically, that if the divide continues to grow and the impact is felt long-term with WotC on the Realms that WotC would do one of two things: 1) shut the campaign down if sales are not consolidated from old and new Realms folk being onboard and keeping sales lower than needed/wanted, or 2) just ignore the old faction to focus on the younger customer segment and shoot for what they can get with lost cost production inputs?

Best regards,


Zeromaru X Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 15:26:02
The Alagondar scion (aka the Neverwinter Noble) is one of the player selectable themes in the excellent Neverwinter Campaign Setting. Basically, one player can choose to be the last living descendant of Nasher Alagondar, and try to claim the crown of Neverwinter from Dagult Neverember.

So, yeah, is somehow of a reused asset, but it makes no sense at all how they are using it.
PattPlays Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 09:24:49
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

So, the Alagondar scion endep up in Icewind Dale, instead of doing stuff, you know, in Neverwinter... well, at least they didn't ignored that bit of lore and just gave it an illogical treatment.



What's the history there? Perhaps they had some Neverwinter content online that was scrapped, and someone at WOTC rescued them from being completely abandoned.
Zeromaru X Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 06:15:20
So, the Alagondar scion endep up in Icewind Dale, instead of doing stuff, you know, in Neverwinter... well, at least they didn't ignored that bit of lore and just gave it an illogical treatment.

Wooly Rupert Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 04:19:18
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I just read and liked the splintered off tower from the enclave that's buried upside down. The one thing I'd say is that the special illusion machine needs charges or something, but other than that, I liked the story.

What do you think of the player character secrets and the MYTHAL that they have in there?

Is.. is it canonical that Mythals can have a save vs what is effectively obliteration when touched?



Are you talking about a mythal or a mythallar? Two very different critters, there.
PattPlays Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 02:51:42
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I just read and liked the splintered off tower from the enclave that's buried upside down. The one thing I'd say is that the special illusion machine needs charges or something, but other than that, I liked the story.

What do you think of the player character secrets and the MYTHAL that they have in there?

Is.. is it canonical that Mythals can have a save vs what is effectively obliteration when touched?
sleyvas Posted - 09 Oct 2020 : 14:40:06
I just read and liked the splintered off tower from the enclave that's buried upside down. The one thing I'd say is that the special illusion machine needs charges or something, but other than that, I liked the story.
PattPlays Posted - 09 Oct 2020 : 03:42:53
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I know we all love lore and backstory, but a lot of times the players just don't give a flying fart about that stuff. I really need to finish off reading the module, but I've got other stuff I want to work on, maybe later tonight.

Honestly I'm interested to see how much fun people have with those hidden backstories. I mean, come on! Having a PC be a Slaad is CLASSIC!
sleyvas Posted - 08 Oct 2020 : 16:08:53
Man, I'm currently relooking at our own thread here for brainstorming anchorome (I wanted to make a list of generic monsters that we were talking about like giant woodpeckers, etc..), and I can't help but notice some of the things we've mentioned there in this adventure (such as an awakened moose, etc...). I'll say while some of the things in this adventure (mainly the stuff like each village having to be immigrants from some specific place in faerun) hit my "why" button... it does look like a "fun" adventure, and it does look like the people there are at least coming here and possibly listening for ideas. I know we all love lore and backstory, but a lot of times the players just don't give a flying fart about that stuff. I really need to finish off reading the module, but I've got other stuff I want to work on, maybe later tonight.

Oh, and I'll say, I kind of liked the ghost giant imagery that was given in one section.
sleyvas Posted - 07 Oct 2020 : 20:15:56
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Rather than make up some new magical crystal, would've been cool to see if it somehow could have been instead linked to the magical purple crystals from Vaelen that were related to Pandorym. Not that I am a big fan of that whole story but (A) it was very random and still kind of sticks out like a sore thumb so additional lore connecting that to the Realms at large would help smooth that and (B) Pandorym exhibited the ability to control in some capacity time/space, so if these black crystals/obelisk have some kind of time travel capabilities, there's a connection there as well.



That's datharathi crystal (also called plangent crystal)... there was also a hint that linked them to the Curna Emeralds found in the same region I think in the 4e campaign guide or maybe the 3e shining south. So, if they can appear as both purple stones and green stones, nothing says they couldn't have had a black stone as well. That being said, they would then need an explanation for why that crystal is also tied to the crystal shard (since the storyline is that the crystal shard created all that chardalyn). Not insurmountable mind you.
sleyvas Posted - 07 Oct 2020 : 20:09:50
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Sounds like they ran out of colours for evil things.

My big problem with making things the same is that the icewind dale chardalyn and the netheril chardalyn have different physical properties which is a big clue that they are different materials.



Sadly, I agree, and show me any time they've ever really kept the rules the same between editions for materials. Its exceptionally rare, and I get really irritated with it too (moreso with more common stuff like adamantine and mithril). I'd have been just as fine if the stuff had been Datharathi crystal, or felliron, etc... (felliron would have needed some explanation for region and maybe timeframe since its mined from Telos, similar with Datharathi crystal since its from Pandorym but its a little more feasible as it was defined as extradimensional). However, all they need to do is say that Chardalyn crystal can also hold spells and it would work.
Lord Karsus Posted - 07 Oct 2020 : 15:52:55
-Rather than make up some new magical crystal, would've been cool to see if it somehow could have been instead linked to the magical purple crystals from Vaelen that were related to Pandorym. Not that I am a big fan of that whole story but (A) it was very random and still kind of sticks out like a sore thumb so additional lore connecting that to the Realms at large would help smooth that and (B) Pandorym exhibited the ability to control in some capacity time/space, so if these black crystals/obelisk have some kind of time travel capabilities, there's a connection there as well.
Gary Dallison Posted - 07 Oct 2020 : 14:13:31
Sounds like they ran out of colours for evil things.

My big problem with making things the same is that the icewind dale chardalyn and the netheril chardalyn have different physical properties which is a big clue that they are different materials.
sleyvas Posted - 07 Oct 2020 : 12:14:53
Or it could be that the Netherese simply didn't realize or possibly didn't document the ties between Chardalyn and the outer planes and only focues on its ability to store magical energy. It might be possible that we find out that a lot of these strange gems are just a variant of the same thing (for instance, down in the shining south there was that datharathi crystal.... over in Vaasa there's the Felliron .... there's a black obsidian like crystal in Maztica called plumastone... then there's "glassteel" which is a made crystal... the netherese were making darkswords (out of a black glass like material) for some Vaasans to get their loyalty). It might be worth a discussion to start gathering all this crystal data somewhere to discuss the various differences or similarities. After all, even in our own world, people thought one of the huge crystals on the crown of England was a ruby or something and it ends up being like an amethyst when they really look in modern day.

Thinking on it further, there's also the "black diamond" which is tied to Auril's holy symbol as well as the Queen of Air and Darkness and somewhat represented in Auril's 3rd form. There's also the shard (forget the name) that was stabbed into the Abyss. For non-canon stuff but which we know came from Ed via George's article on the Athora in Thay, it also appears to be a black metal instead of a crystal, but serves a similar purpose.
Gary Dallison Posted - 07 Oct 2020 : 08:55:13
On the plus side there is now a wealth of information to build up icewind dale properly.

Knights of the black sword will work. Ignore the levistus angle (they love to force in stuff that doesnt fit). An intelligent black sword that has a cult grow around it in an isolated part of the world.
Why is it centred in the ruined caer, I'm going to presume it is historical and the black sword was owned by the dinevs and lost in the ruins when the orcs attacked.
Centuries later other humans arrive and discover it and we have a new secret organisation to spice up the region. What is the swords goal I wonder, what are its powers.

Will have to rework the chardalyn thing as a sagely mistake. The person that named the crystal mistakenly believed it was chardalyn, it is in fact a new substance, perhaps an evolution of chardalyn created by the netherese enclave and used to create / power their mythallar. When the enclave crashed the black crystal continued to grow, fed by the mythallar. Whenever a piece of the crystal is removed it also grows when in contact with high concentrations of magic. Or something like that. A chardalyn hybrid crystal that replicates itself.

George Krashos Posted - 06 Oct 2020 : 23:23:47
It's a trend I've seen throughout the 5E run of FR "super" adventures: nods. As in nodding to the previous lore. Sometimes the nods are cool, sometimes they are ill-thought out, and sometimes they are cursory and shallow. It's that unevenness and inconsistency that I struggle with in this edition's products. That and the fact that the nods are just that and usually not well-explained, comprehensive or bedded down into "what has gone before". Throwing bones are the folks at WotC, throwing bones.

-- George Krashos
sleyvas Posted - 06 Oct 2020 : 22:09:21
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Just got a copy of Rime of the Frostmaiden, not happy with lore so far.

Caer Dinneval founded by the Dinev family from Cormyr.
Caer Konig founded by mountaineers from the Moonsea.
Easthaven founded by settlers from Cape Velen in Tethyr driven away by a thieves guild.
Goodmead founded by immigrants from Chult and the Vilhon Reach.
Lonelywood founded by a family from Urmlaspyr.
Termalaine founded by Calishite settlers.

Lazy design that every town is founded by newcomers from such far off places that they could never reasonably be expected to get there. How do a bunch of mountaineers travel from the Moonsea to Icewind Dale across thousands of miles of every terrain imaginable.




Then we have an awakened mammoth, awakened plesiosaurus, awakened sperm whale, awakened walrus, awakened wolf, awakened moose, awakened shrub. Could they not think of another way to add in interesting animals.



Then there is the chardalyns, what was originally black rocks and pebbles hidden in the lands around ascore that are brittle to the touch but can be used to store spells has morphed into a black crystal as hard as steel but easier to forge that can become infused with infernal or celestial energies and is created in huge and ever growing amounts in Icewind Dale by a laser obelisk mcguffin.
Could they not come up with a different name for crystalline substances that clearly have entirely different structural properties and are similar only in their colour.



And the Dwarven Valley is still the Dwarven Valley, after 20 novels, varying levels of elaboration in a half dozen sourcebooks, and now an entire adventure module, they still couldnt come up with a better name for a valley full of dwarves than the Dwarven Valley.



Its things like this that really irk me with the new edition, why create nuanced lore when you can be lazy and generic, why not reuse the same trope 30 times in the same adventure, why bother to properly name people and places when you can be childish or descriptive with the naming conventions (i'm surprised there is not a "Dwarfey" the dwarf or "Manny" the man, after all there is a "Grandolpha" the old duergar lady)



Agree on the multiple immigrants all from different areas.

On the awakened thing as well, while I enjoyed it to a degree, I couldn't help thinking "why would anyone waste the 1000 gp gem". I can see it happening to a limited degree. Of course, what will likely be said is that the person casting didn't have to use components.

Also, a lot of the quests are either insanely easy or make no sense (i.e. like some dwarves will spend a ton in gems to get a wagon load of iron ingots that cost less than the iron).

I'm still reading this adventure in between other things, so I'm just to the point to the nautiloid (which is cute and not scary at all except that they "released a bulette into the wild").

Also, they're doing things like "the sun hasn't come up for 2 years", and I can't help but think "they haven't all died or left yet?". The fix to this is pretty simple, just reduce the time.

Finally, there's an encounter that is probably hard (can't speak to it as I didn't look extensively at it, but was surprised that the damage wasn't high, etc...) for the character level against a representation of Auril. I'm not against that, because in my book that can be an avatar. If they kill the "avatar", then they stop all priests of Auril from getting spells for a year (until she can be reborn as a goddess). Personally, wouldn't be too upset except for that piece. I don't mind players taking on some kind of really weak avatar. I do mind that some low level players can stop a high priestess of Auril from getting her spells for a year.

Still, I don't want to be all negative. There's some things that look interesting. I just wish that for the storyline that this adventure wasn't built for higher level and thus more believable.
Gary Dallison Posted - 06 Oct 2020 : 19:56:07
Just got a copy of Rime of the Frostmaiden, not happy with lore so far.

Caer Dinneval founded by the Dinev family from Cormyr.
Caer Konig founded by mountaineers from the Moonsea.
Easthaven founded by settlers from Cape Velen in Tethyr driven away by a thieves guild.
Goodmead founded by immigrants from Chult and the Vilhon Reach.
Lonelywood founded by a family from Urmlaspyr.
Termalaine founded by Calishite settlers.

Lazy design that every town is founded by newcomers from such far off places that they could never reasonably be expected to get there. How do a bunch of mountaineers travel from the Moonsea to Icewind Dale across thousands of miles of every terrain imaginable.




Then we have an awakened mammoth, awakened plesiosaurus, awakened sperm whale, awakened walrus, awakened wolf, awakened moose, awakened shrub. Could they not think of another way to add in interesting animals.



Then there is the chardalyns, what was originally black rocks and pebbles hidden in the lands around ascore that are brittle to the touch but can be used to store spells has morphed into a black crystal as hard as steel but easier to forge that can become infused with infernal or celestial energies and is created in huge and ever growing amounts in Icewind Dale by a laser obelisk mcguffin.
Could they not come up with a different name for crystalline substances that clearly have entirely different structural properties and are similar only in their colour.



And the Dwarven Valley is still the Dwarven Valley, after 20 novels, varying levels of elaboration in a half dozen sourcebooks, and now an entire adventure module, they still couldnt come up with a better name for a valley full of dwarves than the Dwarven Valley.



Its things like this that really irk me with the new edition, why create nuanced lore when you can be lazy and generic, why not reuse the same trope 30 times in the same adventure, why bother to properly name people and places when you can be childish or descriptive with the naming conventions (i'm surprised there is not a "Dwarfey" the dwarf or "Manny" the man, after all there is a "Grandolpha" the old duergar lady)
Delnyn Posted - 04 Oct 2020 : 17:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was to run a post-Spellplague Realms, Halruaa would have never gone anywhere, and would would have weathered the Spellplague more or less intact (see my Five Companies Redux idea).

I'm not sure that a bunch of returned Netherese wouldn't be really disruptive. They've got a different approach to magic, they come from what is almost a different world, and some of them would have a hard time fitting into any society where they weren't on top and able to do whatever they pleased.



Would it reasonable to postulate Nentyarch Zalathorm (one heck of a diviner in his own right) and the Halruaans predicted a Toril-wide catastrophe involving Mystra and the Weave, and took whatever protective measures they could?



That depends... Other mortals are said to have known something was coming and were able to prepare. However, I personally think it doesn't make sense that mortals could somehow sense the coming Spellplague but the gods couldn't.

So canon says yes and logic says no.

So really, it comes down to however you want to spin it.



Spellplague and logic don't mix too well. I would rather scrap my idea and go with logic to be honest. I can picture Halruaan wards holding against the Spellplague like many elven mythals did. Thanks for your feedback.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 04 Oct 2020 : 15:27:50
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was to run a post-Spellplague Realms, Halruaa would have never gone anywhere, and would would have weathered the Spellplague more or less intact (see my Five Companies Redux idea).

I'm not sure that a bunch of returned Netherese wouldn't be really disruptive. They've got a different approach to magic, they come from what is almost a different world, and some of them would have a hard time fitting into any society where they weren't on top and able to do whatever they pleased.



Would it reasonable to postulate Nentyarch Zalathorm (one heck of a diviner in his own right) and the Halruaans predicted a Toril-wide catastrophe involving Mystra and the Weave, and took whatever protective measures they could?



That depends... Other mortals are said to have known something was coming and were able to prepare. However, I personally think it doesn't make sense that mortals could somehow sense the coming Spellplague but the gods couldn't.

So canon says yes and logic says no.

So really, it comes down to however you want to spin it.
Delnyn Posted - 04 Oct 2020 : 06:25:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was to run a post-Spellplague Realms, Halruaa would have never gone anywhere, and would would have weathered the Spellplague more or less intact (see my Five Companies Redux idea).

I'm not sure that a bunch of returned Netherese wouldn't be really disruptive. They've got a different approach to magic, they come from what is almost a different world, and some of them would have a hard time fitting into any society where they weren't on top and able to do whatever they pleased.



Would it reasonable to postulate Nentyarch Zalathorm (one heck of a diviner in his own right) and the Halruaans predicted a Toril-wide catastrophe involving Mystra and the Weave, and took whatever protective measures they could?
Compaste Posted - 02 Oct 2020 : 11:43:54
It is quite likely that they were scattered all over Toril.

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