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T O P I C    R E V I E W
sleyvas Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 12:13:23
I've seen many thoughts that certain people from OUR world (earth) came to Toril over the years. I can understand why people go with this idea, because Ed established from the get go that our world and Toril are linked with the assumption that Ed and Elminster were talking. However, I find myself wondering if that's a good idea, or is it like ancient philosophers of our own world who considered "we must be the center of the universe". What I'm about to propose isn't ground breaking, but I feel like its something we've teetered around for years but that we haven't fully discussed. I therefore throw this out for discussion and let's see where it goes. Perhaps some germ develops into something.

What I've been wondering is, since we're just making a story in either direction, WOULD it be a better story if some of the same people's that came to Toril ALSO came to earth at different times and from different worlds. Perhaps they brought with them the same beliefs and religions. Perhaps their temporary ties from their world to our world and their knowledge of magics in their world actually ALLOWED magic to work here. As belief in their gods died out, so did ties between their worlds. Maybe in OUR world DIVINE magics are not able to work as effectively as they do in OTHER worlds (maybe they require a stronger adherence to belief, maybe they require more sacrifice, maybe certain things only work at certain times, etc..).

Thus, we might have several migrations that happened in both Toril and earth from the same sources (not necessarily at the same times), but those sources are varied. By this, I mean the "Rus" who eventually come to Rashemen, the "Mulans" who come to the old empires, and even the "Chessentans" who seem to so resemble Greco/Roman society.

What got me thinking about this was the idea recently presented that Chessentans probably came from earth as well, but at the same time I'm reading this new "Mythic Odyssey of Theros" work. It occurs to me in reading it that possibly it might be an interesting idea if the Chessentan stock came from there. I then thought "and maybe that's where the Greeks came from in our own world". It could help explain away some of our own real world mythological races like centaurs, satyrs, minotaurs, etc...

I know one of the arguments is also the part about the Mulans coming from a world where "magic didn't work". However, I submit that magic DID work, because portals worked. So, perhaps "the weave didn't work the way its supposed to", and perhaps in the world of the Mulan arcane magic is not as strong as that of the divine or psionics or incarnum or pact magic or shadow magic, etc... Also, the Imaskari were able to function there well enough to take slaves, so perhaps they figured out some way to MAKE their magic work there. We have a concept known as the "weave tap" in canon which drew on the weave and converted the "energy" into shadow weave energy, so perhaps they developed something like that for that world.

Now, I know that folks are like "yeah, but there would be stories of some ancient portal opening up, etc...". However, I submit that what if the traversing was less of a "we walked through a portal and we were in another world" and more like the mists of Ravenloft. Most people don't have a huge knowledge of their own world outside of what they know to be beyond the horizon, so if there were sea portals that people might pass through, explorers might pass between worlds and not have a clue. This in fact is how the Isle of Jakandor setting was populated, and I think it could work here as well.

So, I put forth, which idea do you like better? Multiple cultures from earth being transferred to Toril OR multiple cultures on earth being affected by several different worlds at different times that also went to Toril at other times.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 19 Nov 2020 : 18:12:24
Great Reader Karsus,

quote:
-Haha, it does sound deep, doesn't it? Never read any Kant other than basic categorical imperative stuff in Philosophy 101 years ago. Regardless, it's just something I've noticed in any fantasy/sci-fi/alternate setting, regardless of how different the in-setting world wants to be from Earth. Geography might be different, technology might be different, societal mores might be different, but when you get down to the nitty-gritty nothing is ever that revolutionary and radical because it's always based off of the way we look at things and do things in the actual world.


I can certainly understand what you mean there. I find it interesting though when you think of things as Kant tended too: at what point does the point of initial observation and understanding become something more? Seeing it is never enough I think is what his point was; rather, it had to be interacted with to be understood. At what point is that interaction enough? I think that is the fun thing that allows us to engage with imagination, the things in the Realms. Why magic is so awesome.

Best regards,


Lord Karsus Posted - 19 Nov 2020 : 17:33:38
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Karsus,

Deep words for sure. Metaphysics in epistemology is some crazy stuff. I am assuming you are pulling that from something Immanuel Kant wrote in the Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics? I can't say that I remember that quote, but the way it comes across is very Kantian.

A brutal read that was for sure.

Best regards,



-Haha, it does sound deep, doesn't it? Never read any Kant other than basic categorical imperative stuff in Philosophy 101 years ago. Regardless, it's just something I've noticed in any fantasy/sci-fi/alternate setting, regardless of how different the in-setting world wants to be from Earth. Geography might be different, technology might be different, societal mores might be different, but when you get down to the nitty-gritty nothing is ever that revolutionary and radical because it's always based off of the way we look at things and do things in the actual world.
cpthero2 Posted - 15 Nov 2020 : 23:16:43
Great Reader Karsus,

Deep words for sure. Metaphysics in epistemology is some crazy stuff. I am assuming you are pulling that from something Immanuel Kant wrote in the Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics? I can't say that I remember that quote, but the way it comes across is very Kantian.

A brutal read that was for sure.

Best regards,




Lord Karsus Posted - 15 Nov 2020 : 21:04:07
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane

This thread has been fun, but when we get down to it, the whole entirety of the FR world is anthropic. We have magic in FR because we have magic superstitions in our past. We have pantheism because pantheism is in our past (and present for some cultures). And so on... you get the drift.


-Literally everything we as a society create is, because we know nothing else.
ElfBane Posted - 10 Nov 2020 : 07:59:02
This thread has been fun, but when we get down to it, the whole entirety of the FR world is anthropic. We have magic in FR because we have magic superstitions in our past. We have pantheism because pantheism is in our past (and present for some cultures). And so on... you get the drift.
cpthero2 Posted - 10 Nov 2020 : 02:54:56
Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
You know what.... I hadn't considered this until you just said it, but I think it was Dalor Darden the other day who was talking about adapting the five shires content to the realms (since Ed said he originally meant it to be there).


Indeed, Great Reader Darden was, but I believe Ed was talking about it being where Luiren was (if you refer to page 1 of 8 in that scroll). From what I saw of Master Markustay's map, the Five Shire's was placed alongside Turmish.

quote:
I wonder if he took this into consideration, because where he's putting it is right next to Calimshan.


As above, I thought that it had been placed alongside Turmish, and thus, across from Sembia.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/69/f9/fd69f97f4bf5d7a159eb371bec2a8cb9.jpg

Best regards,





sleyvas Posted - 09 Nov 2020 : 21:39:42
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

There is always the possibility that many people will hide or obscure where they came from and how.

You can find this world wide, but a great example are the people living in the Americas before 1492 or so. A great many of these people will claim with no question that their people have been there forever. Science shows people walked to the Americas or took a boat or two. And yet they will still say they have always been there and never came from anywhere. And this does not even scratch the surface of each group saying that their group was their first.

A Realms example is the Djen: who brought human and halfling slaves from elsewhere(maybe several places) to Toril 8,000 years ago. But most Realmslore says nothing about them. And very little is said about the halflings at all, but they would seem to be the ancestors of most of the Sword Coast and Heartland halflings.



You know what.... I hadn't considered this until you just said it, but I think it was Dalor Darden the other day who was talking about adapting the five shires content to the realms (since Ed said he originally meant it to be there). I wonder if he took this into consideration, because where he's putting it is right next to Calimshan.
sleyvas Posted - 09 Nov 2020 : 21:36:06
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

There is always the possibility that many people will hide or obscure where they came from and how.

You can find this world wide, but a great example are the people living in the Americas before 1492 or so. A great many of these people will claim with no question that their people have been there forever. Science shows people walked to the Americas or took a boat or two. And yet they will still say they have always been there and never came from anywhere. And this does not even scratch the surface of each group saying that their group was their first.

A Realms example is the Djen: who brought human and halfling slaves from elsewhere(maybe several places) to Toril 8,000 years ago. But most Realmslore says nothing about them. And very little is said about the halflings at all, but they would seem to be the ancestors of most of the Sword Coast and Heartland halflings.



You know what.... I hadn't considered this until you just said it, but I think it was Dalor Darden the other day who was talking about adapting the five shires content to the realms (since Ed said he originally meant it to be there). I wonder if he took this into consideration, because where he's putting it is right next to Calimshan.
cpthero2 Posted - 09 Nov 2020 : 06:37:54
Learned Scribe bloodtide_the_red,

I can certainly appreciate the reality that due to something being "pre-history", it is... well... not written about, haha.

There are a variety of reasons for that, so that makes sense too. It's the bane of most humans, I think, when it comes to stories: we want the mystery, but we must figure it out too!

Best regards,





bloodtide_the_red Posted - 09 Nov 2020 : 05:43:22
There is always the possibility that many people will hide or obscure where they came from and how.

You can find this world wide, but a great example are the people living in the Americas before 1492 or so. A great many of these people will claim with no question that their people have been there forever. Science shows people walked to the Americas or took a boat or two. And yet they will still say they have always been there and never came from anywhere. And this does not even scratch the surface of each group saying that their group was their first.

A Realms example is the Djen: who brought human and halfling slaves from elsewhere(maybe several places) to Toril 8,000 years ago. But most Realmslore says nothing about them. And very little is said about the halflings at all, but they would seem to be the ancestors of most of the Sword Coast and Heartland halflings.
cpthero2 Posted - 07 Nov 2020 : 18:04:33
Great Reader Ayrik,

Jumping back in here to revitalize this a bit later...

I agree with you there on the cross pollination idea. You really would think that people would be moving back and forth between those settings more often. I think if I had to guess though, that it is predicated upon the idea that WotC wanted to keep things clear and concise, though of course, that hasn't always been the case. haha I think it was that they felt they were keeping it that way, whatever their rubric for that was.

Best regards,





cpthero2 Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 06:49:52
Master Rupert,

quote:
It wouldn't even require a mass exodus to Earth to bring those religions here, if they originated elsewhere. It could have been just a handful of people, spreading the word as they integrated into an existing society.


I agree with that. I've seen it just as easy to consider that, like in Stargate the deities in question came from 'x' and they may have hit the Forgotten Realms just as easily as they did Earth, at different times, etc. I mean, I kind of think on it as well, with those good ole fashioned Traveller/GURPS star maps that covered enormous areas. Perhaps the deities are fleeing technologies growth, and they hit these primitive landscapes and try to keep them free from technology so they can maintain power.

Best regards,




Wooly Rupert Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 17:23:33
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the manifestations coming to Toril via some kind of magic ships, I have no problem with. There was a lore issue that could use some kind of explanation (i.e. why are there physical manifestations of the gods only in two countries). They created this artificial boundary as a result with lore, and they created a solution around the artificial boundary at the same time. In many ways, it was an elegant answer. The question I've always had was, where did the gods come FROM in their magic ships. Off the record, we've had several authors nod that it is Earth that they came from, so we do have the intent, though that may have been because that's what they were being asked as well (I don't propose that I can read minds, so I don't truly know the original intent).

So, people point out that our world had those gods. I like to think, well, what if some of the people from those regions went to earth? They might have come over with stories of these gods and their powers, and they could have brought the religions with them. Also, if the people of Mulhorand had advanced technology (which we've been led to believe they USED to study technology more), that might explain some of the amazing construction miracles that modern scientists wonder about (and if they did bring some limited magical ability, that might also help such). Furthermore, IF such were to happen, then in Toril the discussion wouldn't be about "where did these people come from", it might be just randomly that some people disappear..... (before someone tries to conflate that with what happened during the spellplague, remember then that OUR world and Toril are also supposed to be roughly in some kind of time sync, so unless those people got sent into our past.... not outside the bounds of possibility mind you.... then that's not what happened, because Ed's supposedly talking to Elminster in the 1350s-1370's).

To add to this, what Ayrik just pointed out, yes it could very much make sense if some things (dragons, giants, leprechauns, fairies, etc...) that were exceptionally rare things in our world that few ever saw.... well they might be much more common in the realms, but they crossed to this world because of some portal or fey crossroad on accident, and their myths dried up in a century or two because no more of them came through.

Also, Ayrik asks a very good question in why don't we have something more on other races, cultures, or civilizations claiming origins from other settings? I'd speculate that maybe a lot of them have forgotten that history from so long ago, because I find it hard to believe that so many intelligent races would spring into being in the same world (again, not impossible with magic, especially since magic can GIVE intelligence to even a dumb animal, just harder to believe).

I guess in the end, a good question to ask is what do we feel like we NEED to have come from earth? I mean, if we say that just having trees and such similar, well then that's going to mean that earth needs to touch nearly everything. If its that there's certain cultures or words that are just too similar, then which ones are they that we can't explain away in some other means? While I'm not averse to having contact between our worlds, the more "ties" we have between them, the harder it becomes to maintain credulity when fact A and fact B don't line up timeline wise, etc... whereas using some totally made up world allows us to play with facts at our whims. Having numerous points of origin for cultures allows even more flexibility (for instance maybe some avariels came from Mystara, but others came from the feywild, and a third group which was killed off came from Greyhawk.... and then maybe we find out that Mystara is to Greyhawk in a manner similar to how Abeir is to Toril).



I



It wouldn't even require a mass exodus to Earth to bring those religions here, if they originated elsewhere. It could have been just a handful of people, spreading the word as they integrated into an existing society.
cpthero2 Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 15:04:11
Great Reader sleyvas,

I certainly don't think it is needed. I believe people with their proclivity to know where they come from have an innate fascination with their origin. It's why humans keep trying at it to discover if it was creation or pure evolution with nothing else.

Best regards,


sleyvas Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 12:29:40
On the manifestations coming to Toril via some kind of magic ships, I have no problem with. There was a lore issue that could use some kind of explanation (i.e. why are there physical manifestations of the gods only in two countries). They created this artificial boundary as a result with lore, and they created a solution around the artificial boundary at the same time. In many ways, it was an elegant answer. The question I've always had was, where did the gods come FROM in their magic ships. Off the record, we've had several authors nod that it is Earth that they came from, so we do have the intent, though that may have been because that's what they were being asked as well (I don't propose that I can read minds, so I don't truly know the original intent).

So, people point out that our world had those gods. I like to think, well, what if some of the people from those regions went to earth? They might have come over with stories of these gods and their powers, and they could have brought the religions with them. Also, if the people of Mulhorand had advanced technology (which we've been led to believe they USED to study technology more), that might explain some of the amazing construction miracles that modern scientists wonder about (and if they did bring some limited magical ability, that might also help such). Furthermore, IF such were to happen, then in Toril the discussion wouldn't be about "where did these people come from", it might be just randomly that some people disappear..... (before someone tries to conflate that with what happened during the spellplague, remember then that OUR world and Toril are also supposed to be roughly in some kind of time sync, so unless those people got sent into our past.... not outside the bounds of possibility mind you.... then that's not what happened, because Ed's supposedly talking to Elminster in the 1350s-1370's).

To add to this, what Ayrik just pointed out, yes it could very much make sense if some things (dragons, giants, leprechauns, fairies, etc...) that were exceptionally rare things in our world that few ever saw.... well they might be much more common in the realms, but they crossed to this world because of some portal or fey crossroad on accident, and their myths dried up in a century or two because no more of them came through.

Also, Ayrik asks a very good question in why don't we have something more on other races, cultures, or civilizations claiming origins from other settings? I'd speculate that maybe a lot of them have forgotten that history from so long ago, because I find it hard to believe that so many intelligent races would spring into being in the same world (again, not impossible with magic, especially since magic can GIVE intelligence to even a dumb animal, just harder to believe).

I guess in the end, a good question to ask is what do we feel like we NEED to have come from earth? I mean, if we say that just having trees and such similar, well then that's going to mean that earth needs to touch nearly everything. If its that there's certain cultures or words that are just too similar, then which ones are they that we can't explain away in some other means? While I'm not averse to having contact between our worlds, the more "ties" we have between them, the harder it becomes to maintain credulity when fact A and fact B don't line up timeline wise, etc... whereas using some totally made up world allows us to play with facts at our whims. Having numerous points of origin for cultures allows even more flexibility (for instance maybe some avariels came from Mystara, but others came from the feywild, and a third group which was killed off came from Greyhawk.... and then maybe we find out that Mystara is to Greyhawk in a manner similar to how Abeir is to Toril).



I
Ayrik Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 09:29:26
Toril (Forgotten Realms) nominally has greater contact with Oerth (Greyhawk) and even with Krynn (Dragonlance) settings than with Earth settings.
Spellcasters, deities, spelljammers, and planeswalkers supposedly traffic between these worlds with some frequency. Indeed, they supposedly have done so across millennia of Realms history.

While contact with Earth is (in terms of Realms history), for the most part, a comparatively new thing.

So - aside from pesky elves - why don't any Realms races, cultures, or civilizations claim origins from other settings? Not everything in the Realms came from the gods, from the Creator Races, or from Earth. While Earth might claim some things (like giants and dragons of mythology) might have actually originated from the Realms.
sleyvas Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 02:07:28
So, that's what I thought I'd start to hear from folks once I laid out all the various options (i.e. they'd prefer a mix), and the main reason I started this thread was that I saw the exact opposite being said all the time (i.e. they must have come here from earth).
cpthero2 Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 23:57:46
Great Reader Darden,

I agree. In fact, one of the things that I like to think about are "lost" stargates in the deserts of Egypt, that could lead to the Realms.

Frickin' cool, and way better than the intergalactic god boats coming to the Realms. Those were kind of lame.

Best regards,


Dalor Darden Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 23:52:48
I'm an advocate of the "mix of all of the above" frankly. Portals would allow numerous movements over time.
cpthero2 Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 22:38:34
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

First of all: congratulations on your promotion good sir. Your contributions go well noticed and are greatly appreciated!

As to the godsmobiles: I was literally laughing my posterior off at that one, when I read Alfred Pennyworth. lol You sir, have a mixture of the joy of Lliira and the humor of Oghma in you! ;)

May Lliira bring you many dances of joy, and Oghma imbue upon you the continued blessing of humor. ;)

Best regards,




Delnyn Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 17:28:49
My choice: A mix of all of the above.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

The very premise of the Forgotten Realms is some real world crossover. The portals to and from worlds is what makes the FR something I really like.

The very fact that there are Elm Trees, Roses, Corn, Rice and on and on and on goes to show that there were obvious crossovers of more than just culture.

The solid foundation of this crossover idea is what gives the explanation for why things that exist in THIS world can exist in the Forgotten Realms. It gives more weight to the suspension of disbelief because it gives an explanation of how so much is similar.

Without it, it is MUCH more difficult to explain the co-existence of so many identical things and results in much hand-waiviam and gods being the reason so much is similar...which to me isn't as good a reason.

So I LIKE that Tyr and company exist in the Forgotten Realms. I LIKE that there are multiple instances of cultures and such passing between the worlds...

It just makes things far smoother and easier to "believe" when reading about the Forgotten Realms.



But do we like the idea more of everything being "it came from earth to Toril"

OR

do we like the idea that some things came from Toril to earth

OR

do we like the idea some things came to Toril from elsewhere and THEN went to earth

OR

do we like the idea that some things came to Toril and came to earth separately but from the same source

OR

a mix of all of the above

This is the question I was looking for in this thread, not whether or not there should be some crossover concepts. What I've noted is that everything seems to be people doing the first concept of "it came from earth to Toril".

To note, these same questions might be applied to other worlds as well, because, for instance, the norse gods exist all over. We also have canonically that there is a Ravenloft version of earth that's literally dating most everything similar up until the 1890's with the Masque of the Red Death setting.



sleyvas Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 16:51:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

The very premise of the Forgotten Realms is some real world crossover. The portals to and from worlds is what makes the FR something I really like.

The very fact that there are Elm Trees, Roses, Corn, Rice and on and on and on goes to show that there were obvious crossovers of more than just culture.

The solid foundation of this crossover idea is what gives the explanation for why things that exist in THIS world can exist in the Forgotten Realms. It gives more weight to the suspension of disbelief because it gives an explanation of how so much is similar.

Without it, it is MUCH more difficult to explain the co-existence of so many identical things and results in much hand-waiviam and gods being the reason so much is similar...which to me isn't as good a reason.

So I LIKE that Tyr and company exist in the Forgotten Realms. I LIKE that there are multiple instances of cultures and such passing between the worlds...

It just makes things far smoother and easier to "believe" when reading about the Forgotten Realms.



But do we like the idea more of everything being "it came from earth to Toril"

OR

do we like the idea that some things came from Toril to earth

OR

do we like the idea some things came to Toril from elsewhere and THEN went to earth

OR

do we like the idea that some things came to Toril and came to earth separately but from the same source

OR

a mix of all of the above

This is the question I was looking for in this thread, not whether or not there should be some crossover concepts. What I've noted is that everything seems to be people doing the first concept of "it came from earth to Toril".

To note, these same questions might be applied to other worlds as well, because, for instance, the norse gods exist all over. We also have canonically that there is a Ravenloft version of earth that's literally dating most everything similar up until the 1890's with the Masque of the Red Death setting.

Delnyn Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 13:16:18
Actually, two Godsmobiles, one for the Mulhorandi pantheon and one for the Untheric pantheon. Alfred Pennyworth was not available, so Ao had to settle for Ptah to contact and guide both pantheons to Realmsspace.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Salient points for sure. I don't mind crossover, as long as the story is sensible, believable, and I can suspend disbelief. :)

I rather enjoy the idea behind the Mulhorand people coming here, there was just some of that gods showing up in the Godmobile through the phlogiston that got a little weird. haha

Best regards,





cpthero2 Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 06:12:57
Great Reader Darden,

Well, I will say that I love the idea of how Tyr did appear during the Procession of Justice. So cool!

Best regards,


Dalor Darden Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 03:59:57
The very premise of the Forgotten Realms is some real world crossover. The portals to and from worlds is what makes the FR something I really like.

The very fact that there are Elm Trees, Roses, Corn, Rice and on and on and on goes to show that there were obvious crossovers of more than just culture.

The solid foundation of this crossover idea is what gives the explanation for why things that exist in THIS world can exist in the Forgotten Realms. It gives more weight to the suspension of disbelief because it gives an explanation of how so much is similar.

Without it, it is MUCH more difficult to explain the co-existence of so many identical things and results in much hand-waiviam and gods being the reason so much is similar...which to me isn't as good a reason.

So I LIKE that Tyr and company exist in the Forgotten Realms. I LIKE that there are multiple instances of cultures and such passing between the worlds...

It just makes things far smoother and easier to "believe" when reading about the Forgotten Realms.

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