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 New Evidence to Support Dead Three Theory

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Storyteller Hero Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 05:51:40
So...I've been throwing around a theory that the Dead Three are still fully fledged deities and that their "quasi-divine mortal forms" on Faerun are actually avatars; the mortal avatars are possibly a restriction that Ao has placed upon the deities of Realmspace - one limited mortal avatar projection per deity to limit their ability to endanger the Cosmic Balance while in the mortal realms.

Mystra's physical appearance in Spellstorm is a clue that the deities are still able to send avatars at will.

During the WOTC interview with Chris Perkins, he denoted that it was the Dead Three's "choice" - knowing the lore, Bane especially would not give up everything that he has worked for in the Outer Planes just to personally lead a cult on a single continent. The sacrifice mentioned in the interview could then refer to the limit on the number of avatars that any deity can project, and the risk of what happens to the main body should an avatar be destroyed.

Ed Greenwood has just tweeted some new weight to the speculation, revealing that Bahamut still wanders Faerun in the guise of an old man. I don't believe that the Platinum Dragon would abandon his divine realm and faithful in the Heavens just to satisfy his wanderlust. This must be an avatar. When asked about the Dead Three in an earlier tweet, the great sage managed to give an answer that begs more questions, without revealing the actual state of the divine realms of the Dead Three.

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1298108424887119872






30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 07:42:40
Master Bones,

lol...I love the expensive china hitting the floor there with that one. I completely agree with you there. That being said...

I do much prefer the idea of Leira posing in one fashion or another as those very weakened deity.

Best regards,


Mirtek Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 23:10:03
The novel that mentioned it was Stormlight
sleyvas Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 23:05:31
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Oh, sorry. I don't know why I though Old Empires was the FR10 book, . Anyways, check page 14, third (or fourth) paragraph.



Gotcha. I knew he came from elsewhere (some novel mentioned it I think), was hoping this might say something more. Still, posting that piece in case anyone else has questions. Ironically, I guess I glossed over the "translation" of Mulhorand to mean "Eternity" in Mulan as well. Not sure how I'd use that, but maybe in the name of something (i.e. "the eternal flame" becomes "the Mulhorand flame").

Within this expanse are desert, ruins, mountains, fertile fields, and cities that were great 2,000 years before the first stone was place on Waterdeep, before the Zhentarim ever unleashed an evil scheme, before Bane was even aware that the Realms existed, a time when the world was young, even to the elves. The words Mulhorand and "eternity" are the same in the language of the Mulhorandi.
Zeromaru X Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 22:12:35
Oh, sorry. I don't know why I though Old Empires was the FR10 book, . Anyways, check page 14, third (or fourth) paragraph.
sleyvas Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 22:02:04
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Interestingly enough, Achra-Bane took Magubliyet as an exarch, and when 4e came along, Magubliyet was described as Realmspace-Bane's exarch.

Despite the two deities being confirmed as separate entities in DRAGON magazine, there may be an important connection.

One possibility may be that Realmspace-Bane is either a progeny or divergent aspect of Achra-Bane, meaning he could have been at least a demigod in the origin story for the Dead Three - this would help explain why so much wonder was being expressed by Bane when he was forced into a mortal avatar form in the Avatar series.




There is also that line in FR10 Old Empires that states that Bane came to the Realms from some other place.

And yes, one of the origin stories of Achra is that he was either a demigod or a mortal king who killed an older god of war to gain his powers (The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea).



Just wondering, where in FR10?
Zeromaru X Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 17:24:28
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Interestingly enough, Achra-Bane took Magubliyet as an exarch, and when 4e came along, Magubliyet was described as Realmspace-Bane's exarch.

Despite the two deities being confirmed as separate entities in DRAGON magazine, there may be an important connection.

One possibility may be that Realmspace-Bane is either a progeny or divergent aspect of Achra-Bane, meaning he could have been at least a demigod in the origin story for the Dead Three - this would help explain why so much wonder was being expressed by Bane when he was forced into a mortal avatar form in the Avatar series.




There is also that line in FR10 Old Empires that states that Bane came to the Realms from some other place.

And yes, one of the origin stories of Achra is that he was either a demigod or a mortal king who killed an older god of war to gain his powers (The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea).
Mirtek Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 16:23:24
Bottom line is the the Dead Three are mortal demigods because the current D&D designers want them to be. They do not care anymore for a coherent lore that delivers any reason for it.

It's "cool" and it's needed for the new multi-million $ video game and tie-in modules and that is all the reason it needs

Same with why Tiamat is trapped in Avernus. It's nice of Ed to write up some lore that closes this gap, but we can be pretty sure that the current D&D team had none of that in mind when they decided to up with the frist two modules.

They'll just spitball a short explanation for whatever they need at the moment, not caring how many holes it has even for the current status and feel completely free to disregard it further down the line when they decide to do something else
sleyvas Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 11:10:43
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.



Nope. In fact, Achra just killed Xvim and took Bane's place as... well, Bane. After all, he is also a Bane

At least, that's how I did in my Realms, and also explains why the current Bane acts differently than the pre-ToT Bane.



Interestingly enough, Achra-Bane took Magubliyet as an exarch, and when 4e came along, Magubliyet was described as Realmspace-Bane's exarch.

Despite the two deities being confirmed as separate entities in DRAGON magazine, there may be an important connection.

One possibility may be that Realmspace-Bane is either a progeny or divergent aspect of Achra-Bane, meaning he could have been at least a demigod in the origin story for the Dead Three - this would help explain why so much wonder was being expressed by Bane when he was forced into a mortal avatar form in the Avatar series.




Hey may have been bypassing the godswall using an incarnation or manifestation similar to the Mulan gods. Since there's also hints that Myrkul came from Murghom as royalty, he may have been something related to said beings as well. Perhaps they were using some ritual to prepare themselves that involved something from the Mulan Manifestations (i.e. blood of a deity of similar aspect, some portion stolen from the gods that fell in the orcgate wars, etc...). To note, at least 2 sun gods and 2 death gods died in the time surrounding the orcgate wars (Nergal died and Osiris was killed soon thereafter, but Osiris was raised) along with gods of war & love (and I'd say Inanna was a tyrant), nature (Ki), fire (Girru), Marduk, Tiamat, plus gods like Enlil and Ishtar leaving.... so there was some "materials" left behind on the prime. That's assuming too that they named all the Untheric gods that were killed and didn't leave off lesser ones.
Storyteller Hero Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 07:22:15
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.



Nope. In fact, Achra just killed Xvim and took Bane's place as... well, Bane. After all, he is also a Bane

At least, that's how I did in my Realms, and also explains why the current Bane acts differently than the pre-ToT Bane.



Interestingly enough, Achra-Bane took Magubliyet as an exarch, and when 4e came along, Magubliyet was described as Realmspace-Bane's exarch.

Despite the two deities being confirmed as separate entities in DRAGON magazine, there may be an important connection.

One possibility may be that Realmspace-Bane is either a progeny or divergent aspect of Achra-Bane, meaning he could have been at least a demigod in the origin story for the Dead Three - this would help explain why so much wonder was being expressed by Bane when he was forced into a mortal avatar form in the Avatar series.






LordofBones Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 01:42:11
None of the Dead Three were actually active in meddling with mortal affairs during their tenures. The worst was Bhaal boinking everything in sight, but Bane and Myrkul were relatively hands-off, with the most being Myrkul just showing up at funerals to scare people.

It's seriously out of character, but this is the edition that tells us hyenas are evil by default, so...
Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 22:28:42
I really doubt Bahamut would help Gilgeam (or "Gilgeam") this time. Not only because what Gilgeam did to Marduk's memory back in the past, but because he now threatens his children (the dragonborn of Tymanther). Really, Gilgeam has a really difficult time ahead...

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Side note Auril is also wondering the realms in Mortal Forms and is the key villian of the next AP.

And of course Nobinion is still on Toril, the Mulhorandi Pantheon is too, Gilgeam, perhaps several Drow Gods, Lolth made a personal appearance in the last book series, ect..., so this could really use more clarity.

Oh side note if Bahumut aka Marduk is running around Faerun, with the return of Enlil, Gilgeam, Nana-Sin (sort of), plus Tiamat, Hoar, and most likely Ishtar and Ramman (because Anhur and Isis held either manifestations, so their return would likely be a package deal), we are seeing the first stages of the reimergence of the Unther Pantheon.


Sekolah is also said to dwell on the prime IIRC



Well, there is no problem with dwelling in the Prime. What Ao forbid was to meddle with the mortals or, if you want to meddle with them, then do it from the risking position of demigodhood. Or that's how I understand what they said in Descent into Avernus.

Gilgeam may rule physically in Unther, but he is in the same position as the Dead Three: he is just a demigod. The Mulhorandi gods are either demigods (incarnations) or acting through proxy (their Chosen). The Dead Three want to actually command their churches and followers, so you get the idea.

On the other hand Enlil may have returned, but he doesn't interferes personally with Unther or Tymanther. Bahamut may wander the world, but he didn't physically intervened when Tiamat was trying to escape the Hells, he just sent his metallic dragons to deal with the situation. Heck, Tiamat had to leave all the ritual's preparation to her followers, when before that she may have sent an avatar to help them. Mystra may appear to Elminster in person, but only to have tea with him and Mordenkainen. They do not meddle in mortal affairs, so aren't affected by the demigodhood thing.
sleyvas Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 21:12:33
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.



Nope. In fact, Achra just killed Xvim and took Bane's place as... well, Bane. After all, he is also a Bane

At least, that's how I did in my Realms, and also explains why the current Bane acts differently than the pre-ToT Bane.



Then "Bane" came back as Gilgeam, and he's headed to Mourktar to get the "Black Lord's Cloak" from his ancient temple there because it has a portion of his divine spark within it. Meanwhile Tiamat THINKS its Gilgeam, and is planning to attack him, while Bahamut in the form of Marduk seeks to protect his "Untheric" Pantheon and seeks to stop Tiamat. Meanwhile, Assuran's temple in Mourktar has renewed vigour and has decided to gain vengeance on the returned Untheric people by giving "Gilgeam" his comeuppance as he heads to Mourktar, because he's assuming that "Gilgeam" wants to conquer this city that is outside of Untheric control. Meanwhile the cast down Xvim seeks to recover his OLD deific position again, and having been contacted by an Abyssal Messenger sent by "Gilgeam that is Bane", he knows his dad needs help and he has a chance to become a minor deity again.

Of course, Ramman and Inanna (who are actually Thoros and Sifya of the Metahel Pantheon)....
Mirtek Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 21:07:08
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Side note Auril is also wondering the realms in Mortal Forms and is the key villian of the next AP.

And of course Nobinion is still on Toril, the Mulhorandi Pantheon is too, Gilgeam, perhaps several Drow Gods, Lolth made a personal appearance in the last book series, ect..., so this could really use more clarity.

Oh side note if Bahumut aka Marduk is running around Faerun, with the return of Enlil, Gilgeam, Nana-Sin (sort of), plus Tiamat, Hoar, and most likely Ishtar and Ramman (because Anhur and Isis held either manifestations, so their return would likely be a package deal), we are seeing the first stages of the reimergence of the Unther Pantheon.


Sekolah is also said to dwell on the prime IIRC
Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 19:04:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.



Nope. In fact, Achra just killed Xvim and took Bane's place as... well, Bane. After all, he is also a Bane

At least, that's how I did in my Realms, and also explains why the current Bane acts differently than the pre-ToT Bane.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 16:53:36
There is some actual support for the Xvim is Bane theory, though -- even taken all together -- it's not at all conclusive.
LordofBones Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 15:45:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, here's another theory I just came up with:

The divine roster hasn't changed at all. None of the dead deities are back.

The avatars of the Dead Three are avatars of Cyric, active as a way of keeping him relevant.

Any other "returned" deities are just aspects of the deities that replaced them -- they each decided if Cyric could do play that card, they could, too. But since they're not locked away, they didn't have to go the avatar route.

I still say that Bane never came back at all. Cyric murdered Xvim and played the whole return of Bane thing as a giant deception to avoid too much backslash



You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.



This could actually be fun.

Xvim knows he needs legitimacy and a power base, and as far as evil deities go, when you think of someone who isn't cray-cray, it's Bane. So Xvim needs Dad back in some form or another, only Pops is legitimately gone.

So, with Bane nowhere to be found (and consulting the Crown of Horns just ends up with Myrkul spouting cryptic philosophy at him), Xvim decides that if he can't bring back Bane, he'll become Bane.

Only that's not how it works.

Now Xvim's mind is haunted by memories that aren't his as the world corrects itself, and he no longer knows if he is Xvim-Who-Became-Bane or He-Who-Was-Always-Bane.
Gyor Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 09:44:16
Side note Auril is also wondering the realms in Mortal Forms and is the key villian of the next AP.

And of course Nobinion is still on Toril, the Mulhorandi Pantheon is too, Gilgeam, perhaps several Drow Gods, Lolth made a personal appearance in the last book series, ect..., so this could really use more clarity.

Oh side note if Bahumut aka Marduk is running around Faerun, with the return of Enlil, Gilgeam, Nana-Sin (sort of), plus Tiamat, Hoar, and most likely Ishtar and Ramman (because Anhur and Isis held either manifestations, so their return would likely be a package deal), we are seeing the first stages of the reimergence of the Unther Pantheon.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 29 Aug 2020 : 02:27:48
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, here's another theory I just came up with:

The divine roster hasn't changed at all. None of the dead deities are back.

The avatars of the Dead Three are avatars of Cyric, active as a way of keeping him relevant.

Any other "returned" deities are just aspects of the deities that replaced them -- they each decided if Cyric could do play that card, they could, too. But since they're not locked away, they didn't have to go the avatar route.

I still say that Bane never came back at all. Cyric murdered Xvim and played the whole return of Bane thing as a giant deception to avoid too much backslash



You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.
Mirtek Posted - 28 Aug 2020 : 21:56:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, here's another theory I just came up with:

The divine roster hasn't changed at all. None of the dead deities are back.

The avatars of the Dead Three are avatars of Cyric, active as a way of keeping him relevant.

Any other "returned" deities are just aspects of the deities that replaced them -- they each decided if Cyric could do play that card, they could, too. But since they're not locked away, they didn't have to go the avatar route.

I still say that Bane never came back at all. Cyric murdered Xvim and played the whole return of Bane thing as a giant deception to avoid too much backslash
Demzer Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 11:50:26
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

They want to start a boy band called "The Dead Three" XD.



Already done, but in our world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tre_Allegri_Ragazzi_Morti
LordofBones Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 11:37:16
Larian isn't exactly known for their writing chops.
Zeromaru X Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 00:43:29
Their goals and stuff will surely be revealed in Baldur's Gate 3. This "demotion to demigod" was done for the plot of this game, IIRC.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 00:31:38
They want to start a boy band called "The Dead Three" XD.

Okay, in all seriousness, I'm wondering if they're somehow trying to "bend the rules" (wouldn't be the first time). Ao restored the Tablets of Fate, and, iirc, mandated that deities could no longer steal each other's portfolios. Maybe the Dead Three are trying to "test the waters", so to speak, by walking the world as avatars. I'm not sure what their goal would be, but it's only a matter of time before they get up to mischief.
Gary Dallison Posted - 26 Aug 2020 : 22:08:23
Got bored of reading RAS novels so thought I might take a break and do a church of myrkul bit of research as it is massively undetailed.

I'm getting a bit of a kingmaker vibe from the myrkulites, offering their knowledge of the dead and undead to those seeking lichdom, while staying firmly in the background.
George Krashos Posted - 26 Aug 2020 : 10:23:30
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does it matter?

-- George Krashos




It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.




It's mythology. It's not meant to make sense or provide absolute answers.

You want to write a cool (and likely high-selling) DMs Guild product on the gods? Pick a deity, go into extreme detail re its priesthood, worshippers, temples, shrines, miracles, holy holidays, religious festivals, prayers, observances, dress, sects, important figures, unique sayings/spells/items, relics and dress it up with some accompanying crunch to add to anyone's game.

If you did that to any of the Dead Three it would have far more use, popularity and effect than musing whether they are avatars or not for a single line in a broad, top down look at "the gods".

Just my 2cp.

-- George Krashos
TheIriaeban Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 21:42:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.






You've chosen quite the challenge, there... I think the current design team is being as vague as they possibly can, on as much as they possibly can, just to leave themselves the maximum amount of wiggle room possible. I've begun to think of it as Schrodinger's Realms, now: "Is this thing X or Y? Both! Neither! Whatever!"



There you go, they are in a Quantum Divine State. Both mortal and gods at the same time. You only get to see which version you get based on how and when you interact with them.
Storyteller Hero Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 20:48:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does it matter?

-- George Krashos




It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.






You've chosen quite the challenge, there... I think the current design team is being as vague as they possibly can, on as much as they possibly can, just to leave themselves the maximum amount of wiggle room possible. I've begun to think of it as Schrodinger's Realms, now: "Is this thing X or Y? Both! Neither! Whatever!"



With the current state of WotC's lore obfuscation, online communities like this, where obscure references and scholarly discussions are bread and butter of everyday discourse, are a godsend.






Wooly Rupert Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 20:21:07
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does it matter?

-- George Krashos




It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.






You've chosen quite the challenge, there... I think the current design team is being as vague as they possibly can, on as much as they possibly can, just to leave themselves the maximum amount of wiggle room possible. I've begun to think of it as Schrodinger's Realms, now: "Is this thing X or Y? Both! Neither! Whatever!"
Storyteller Hero Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 20:05:45
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does it matter?

-- George Krashos




It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.


Zeromaru X Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 18:36:54
My guess is that this matters less for Bahamut, who is a multispheric power (and he is even a greater power in at least two worlds), so if lost his Torilian aspect, while a great setback isn't not a total loss (he still has other aspects and his essence will survive); than to deities like the Dead Three* that only exist in Toril. If they are killed there, they cease to exist, so being forced to become avatars it's a great risk.

So, for Bahamut pleasing Ao to influence Toril is not as stupid as the Dead Three doing it. And as LordofBones pointed out, it's something that Bahamut has been doing since always.



*With perhaps the exception of Bane, who may be multispheric if we assume he and Bane (Achra) are one and the same, something that we don't know.

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