| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 19:22:00
I have decided to include a tiefling in Iriaebor around 1370 so I am looking into how people would react to her. I know that large cities tend to be a bit more open in accepting the unusual but I am not sure that people would recognize her for what she is. Certainly, they would know a drow on sight but has there been enough mass tiefling appearances to justify some shopkeeper in Iriaebor knowing what she is? The only mass appearances of tieflings I have been able to find are the ones at Hellgate Keep, the ones that were in Westgate in the 700s, and the Scions of Astaroth in the mid to late 1360s. Am I missing any other tiefling groups that appeared in the Relams prior to 1370? |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 07 Aug 2020 : 19:03:44
So, based on the calculated expansion rate, that curse would have hit the following locations in:
Suzail (897 miles)=> 1365-1366
Hellgate Keep (1234 miles)=> 1368-1369
Skuld (1419 miles)=> 1369-1370
Waterdeep (1675 miles)=> 1371-1372
Border Kingdoms (1721 miles)=> 1372-1373
Calimport (1979 miles)=> 1374-1375
Halarahh (2623 miles)=> 1379-1380 |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Aug 2020 : 18:11:28
Yeah, the ritual was cast in Vaasa. It doesn't say the exact location, tho. It was some sort of secret cave or something. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 07 Aug 2020 : 17:25:43
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
The dates seem to be a bit off for me. 3e is in 1372 and 4e is 1385, right? If the change went into effect in 1358, then all tieflings born after that date would be Asmodean. That would "preload" them 14 years BEFORE even 3e started and 27 years before 4e. So, I would guess that the out is that the curse doesn't affect ALL tieflings being born prior to 1385. It is only after the Spellplague occurred that the magic of the curse really kicks in and there is no out for any tiefling.
Just how many people are there out there with latent tiefling blood, etc... There's no computer network to track the looks of such beings worldwide, so things may have changed and people just didn't notice until the next generation looks exactly the same, etc...
My guess is that, initially, the curse went slow and growing up exponentially year by year. So, perhaps, of the tieflings that were born in late 1358, only one or two were of Asmodean lineage, and I guess they were among those born in Vaasa (the place where the ritual was cast) or its environs.
Then, in 1359 that number doubles and Asmodean tieflings began to born in other countries near Vaasa. In 1360, the number doubles again, and affects tieflings born, I dunno, in Cormyr and the like. So, if there were just 2 Asmodean tieflings in Faerūn by 1358, by 1359 there were 4 more, and in 1360 there were 8 more, and so on. By 1385, I guess the curse will be affecting places such as Waterdeep and the Old Empires, but the number of Asmodean tieflings should still be really low.
Then, the Spellplague happens, Asmodeus attains/regains godhood, and super charges the curse to make it worldwide and super effective, so from that point onwards if affects all tieflings in the world, not just a few ones.
Or well, that's how I interpret it.
Does it say where in Vaasa it was cast? According to FRIA, Vaasa is roughly 1675 miles from Waterdeep and Mulhorand is about 1450 miles away. If I can get where it happened in Vaasa, I can get a better measurement and then figure out an expansion rate based on the time and distance given.
Edit: Actually, never mind. At that scale, exact values aren't needed. If the curse basically covered the Realms by 1385, that means it was expanding at about 580 yards a day so that towards the end it was adding about 6.5 million square miles a day to the area of effect. That puts the maximum radius at that point at about 3,150 miles from Vaasa so that it hasn't reached Zakhara yet. Post-Spellplague, it just went instantly global. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 18:01:53
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Well, if you acknowledge 4E D&D at all, you will just about always have a lore and history problem. 4E deliberately changed and destroyed most pre 4E lore and history with the silly "4E is and forever has always and only be the one single D&D". They obliterated anything old and published, because 4E was so great and cool.
Of course, 4E being as "great" as it was is now long gone....but the damage is spread out there, assuming you read anything 4E. And if you acknowledge the cool 4E stuff and try to fit it into some sort of rational and logical fantasy world.....you will have to iron out any stupid, crazy, dumb and outright ridiculous 4E spam by yourself.
That's the easy part. They used it in the Dallas TV show: You wake up, sweating, thinking about what 4e did to the Realms and then you hear the shower running and you go in there and see the Realms are just fine and all that bad stuff was just a dream.
Then you realize that the new reality is even more nightmarish than 4e, because 5e makes no sense at all. At least, 4e was following the storyline they started with 3e. There is no logic at all with the storyline of 5e...
Oh, wrong show then. It was Lost: after 3.5e, you were in Purgatory/Hell the whole time... |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 17:46:17
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Well, if you acknowledge 4E D&D at all, you will just about always have a lore and history problem. 4E deliberately changed and destroyed most pre 4E lore and history with the silly "4E is and forever has always and only be the one single D&D". They obliterated anything old and published, because 4E was so great and cool.
Of course, 4E being as "great" as it was is now long gone....but the damage is spread out there, assuming you read anything 4E. And if you acknowledge the cool 4E stuff and try to fit it into some sort of rational and logical fantasy world.....you will have to iron out any stupid, crazy, dumb and outright ridiculous 4E spam by yourself.
That's the easy part. They used it in the Dallas TV show: You wake up, sweating, thinking about what 4e did to the Realms and then you hear the shower running and you go in there and see the Realms are just fine and all that bad stuff was just a dream.
Then you realize that the new reality is even more nightmarish than 4e, because 5e makes no sense at all. At least, 4e was following the storyline they started with 3e. There is no logic at all with the storyline of 5e... |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 17:43:29
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
The dates seem to be a bit off for me. 3e is in 1372 and 4e is 1385, right? If the change went into effect in 1358, then all tieflings born after that date would be Asmodean. That would "preload" them 14 years BEFORE even 3e started and 27 years before 4e. So, I would guess that the out is that the curse doesn't affect ALL tieflings being born prior to 1385. It is only after the Spellplague occurred that the magic of the curse really kicks in and there is no out for any tiefling.
Just how many people are there out there with latent tiefling blood, etc... There's no computer network to track the looks of such beings worldwide, so things may have changed and people just didn't notice until the next generation looks exactly the same, etc...
My guess is that, initially, the curse went slow and growing up exponentially year by year. So, perhaps, of the tieflings that were born in late 1358, only one or two were of Asmodean lineage, and I guess they were among those born in Vaasa (the place where the ritual was cast) or its environs.
Then, in 1359 that number doubles and Asmodean tieflings began to born in other countries near Vaasa. In 1360, the number doubles again, and affects tieflings born, I dunno, in Cormyr and the like. So, if there were just 2 Asmodean tieflings in Faerūn by 1358, by 1359 there were 4 more, and in 1360 there were 8 more, and so on. By 1385, I guess the curse will be affecting places such as Waterdeep and the Old Empires, but the number of Asmodean tieflings should still be really low.
Then, the Spellplague happens, Asmodeus attains/regains godhood, and super charges the curse to make it worldwide and super effective, so from that point onwards if affects all tieflings in the world, not just a few ones.
Or well, that's how I interpret it. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 17:26:47
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Well, if you acknowledge 4E D&D at all, you will just about always have a lore and history problem. 4E deliberately changed and destroyed most pre 4E lore and history with the silly "4E is and forever has always and only be the one single D&D". They obliterated anything old and published, because 4E was so great and cool.
Of course, 4E being as "great" as it was is now long gone....but the damage is spread out there, assuming you read anything 4E. And if you acknowledge the cool 4E stuff and try to fit it into some sort of rational and logical fantasy world.....you will have to iron out any stupid, crazy, dumb and outright ridiculous 4E spam by yourself.
That's the easy part. They used it in the Dallas TV show: You wake up, sweating, thinking about what 4e did to the Realms and then you hear the shower running and you go in there and see the Realms are just fine and all that bad stuff was just a dream. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 17:20:29
Well, if you acknowledge 4E D&D at all, you will just about always have a lore and history problem. 4E deliberately changed and destroyed most pre 4E lore and history with the silly "4E is and forever has always and only be the one single D&D". They obliterated anything old and published, because 4E was so great and cool.
Of course, 4E being as "great" as it was is now long gone....but the damage is spread out there, assuming you read anything 4E. And if you acknowledge the cool 4E stuff and try to fit it into some sort of rational and logical fantasy world.....you will have to iron out any stupid, crazy, dumb and outright ridiculous 4E spam by yourself. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 17:19:16
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
The dates seem to be a bit off for me. 3e is in 1372 and 4e is 1385, right? If the change went into effect in 1358, then all tieflings born after that date would be Asmodean. That would "preload" them 14 years BEFORE even 3e started and 27 years before 4e. So, I would guess that the out is that the curse doesn't affect ALL tieflings being born prior to 1385. It is only after the Spellplague occurred that the magic of the curse really kicks in and there is no out for any tiefling.
Just how many people are there out there with latent tiefling blood, etc... There's no computer network to track the looks of such beings worldwide, so things may have changed and people just didn't notice until the next generation looks exactly the same, etc... |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 17:19:05
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
The dates seem to be a bit off for me. 3e is in 1372 and 4e is 1385, right? If the change went into effect in 1358, then all tieflings born after that date would be Asmodean. That would "preload" them 14 years BEFORE even 3e started and 27 years before 4e. So, I would guess that the out is that the curse doesn't affect ALL tieflings being born prior to 1385. It is only after the Spellplague occurred that the magic of the curse really kicks in and there is no out for any tiefling.
3e is 1372 to 1374, yeah. 4e is 1479 to 1482. There is a whole lost century gap there.
And yes, the magic curse really kicked up after Asmodeus became a god, so after 1385. Before that, the curse was active but wasn't as super effective. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 17:17:40
-That's good. I prefer Tieflings to have more subdued looks, but I like that they gave an explanation as to why there was a change, instead of just shrugging and not addressing it like the whole Elves/Eladrin boondoggle. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 16:51:53
The dates seem to be a bit off for me. 3e is in 1372 and 4e is 1385, right? If the change went into effect in 1358, then all tieflings born after that date would be Asmodean. That would "preload" them 14 years BEFORE even 3e started and 27 years before 4e. So, I would guess that the out is that the curse doesn't affect ALL tieflings being born prior to 1385. It is only after the Spellplague occurred that the magic of the curse really kicks in and there is no out for any tiefling. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 16:46:57
As with everything 4e, the details aren't given in a single book, but rather are scattered in many books; I had to read the 6 novels to "fish" the whole story of Bryseis Kakistos. Her intentions and the dates are revealed in The Devil You Know, the last novel of the series, however. I was under the assumption that you owned that one.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvasI do find it interesting that it was specifically in 1358 DR and did they try to link it somehow to the time of troubles.
Knowing Erin, I'm sure this was intentional on her part. She is nerdy as us when it comes to Realmslore  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 16:25:36
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah. It was introduced in the Brimstone Angels novel series to explain the unified appearance of tieflings in the 15th century of the Realms (4e/5e).
Long story short, a powerful tiefling warlock named Bryseis Kakistos was duped by Asmodeus into cursing the tiefling race so he could became a "racial god" (it didn't worked well), thought Bryseis did it because humans had killed her sister (stoned to death then burned until no remains were left) and Asmodeus promised he would resurrect her if Bryseis helped him (he didn't said when, tho; oldest trick in the book). Also, Bryseis thought that if all tieflings had the same appearance, they would generate a unified culture and would protect themselves better, so no tiefling will share the fate of her sister never again.
I think that was all in teh one book of that series that I don't have because it was so expensive online. I never realized the year until you blatantly typed it. I do find it interesting that it was specifically in 1358 DR and did they try to link it somehow to the time of troubles. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 15:36:14
Yeah. It was introduced in the Brimstone Angels novel series to explain the unified appearance of tieflings in the 15th century of the Realms (4e/5e).
Long story short, a powerful tiefling warlock named Bryseis Kakistos was duped by Asmodeus into cursing the tiefling race so he could became a "racial god" (it didn't worked well), thought Bryseis did it because humans had killed her sister (stoned to death then burned until no remains were left) and Asmodeus promised he would resurrect her if Bryseis helped him (he didn't said when, tho; oldest trick in the book). Also, Bryseis thought that if all tieflings had the same appearance, they would generate a unified culture and would protect themselves better, so no tiefling will share the fate of her sister never again. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 06:15:39
-The "Asmodean Curse" is the explanation that explains why Tieflings went from having their heritages usually being kind of demure to being the more over-the-top looking that 4e introduced I take it? |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 02:20:55
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The curse only affected tieflings born after the ritual was cast. The curse magically alters the lineage of any tiefling born in Toril to that of Asmodeus (regardless of parentage), so all tieflings born in or after 1358 DR should be of Asmodean lineage (aka the standard tieflings of 4e/5e). And then curses the child with the additional effect that their offspring will be always a tiefling regardless of the other parent biology (or race, if you're old school).
So, no, I guess she would be fine if she was 8 yo in 1358 DR. Her children would be affected, though.
She has an older brother. I suppose if her little niece or nephew was born "deformed", she may take that personally. That would also be an excellent reason for why she left Proskur in the first place. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 02:04:39
The curse only affected tieflings born after the ritual was cast. The curse magically alters the lineage of any tiefling born in Toril to that of Asmodeus (regardless of parentage), so all tieflings born in or after 1358 DR should be of Asmodean lineage (aka the standard tieflings of 4e/5e). And then curses the child with the additional effect that their offspring will be always a tiefling regardless of the other parent biology (or race, if you're old school).
So, no, I guess she would be fine if she was 8 yo in 1358 DR. Her children would be affected, though. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 01:50:15
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The Asmodean curse was created in 1358 DR according to "The Devil You Know", though it gained real power and went worldwide after Asmodeus attained (regained?) godhood after the Spellplague (1385).
That means that by the 1370s, you may find Asmodean tieflings among those tieflings born in Faerūn, that were younger than 20 years old.
I haven't read that. Was there an effect that tieflings would have seen or felt when the curse was cast? Raztalia would have been 8 yo then and that would be a nice little character trait for her to despise warlocks because of it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 01:08:07
A Leiran told me about a flash mob play that was put on in the streets before Castle Waterdeep that had an all-tiefling cast version of "Karsus' Fabulous Follies". |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 23:33:13
The Asmodean curse was created in 1358 DR according to "The Devil You Know", though it gained real power and went worldwide after Asmodeus attained (regained?) godhood after the Spellplague (1385).
That means that by the 1370s, you may find Asmodean tieflings among those tieflings born in Faerūn, that were younger than 20 years old. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 20:28:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Also, I have to confirm if the Asmodean curse was already in effect or not by the time (this would affect the appearance of the younger tieflings).
This is very relevant to the discussion. Before 4E came along with the "one-size fits all" approach to the appearances of the planetouched, every tiefling looked different from every other one. And some planetouched -- including tieflings -- could pass as human, provided they didn't have some immediate, telltale feature. One tiefling might have scales, another might have fangs, another might have red eyes and smell like brimstone.
I have used to tables in the Planescape book to "customize" her appearance. She can pass for human most of the time. Things get a bit dicey if she gets mad, though. That is when her "heritage" comes to the fore. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 20:24:21
The Asmodean curse is closer to the Spellplague and I don't think it would affect her anyway based on her actual bloodline (her grandfather was the first of the bloodline, born in 1285 in Westgate, and sired by the avatar of an Abyss based intermediate power).
Thank you, bloodtide. Avoiding and stares would seem to be the most logical reaction with maybe The Shield stopping her to question her?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 20:13:18
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Also, I have to confirm if the Asmodean curse was already in effect or not by the time (this would affect the appearance of the younger tieflings).
This is very relevant to the discussion. Before 4E came along with the "one-size fits all" approach to the appearances of the planetouched, every tiefling looked different from every other one. And some planetouched -- including tieflings -- could pass as human, provided they didn't have some immediate, telltale feature. One tiefling might have scales, another might have fangs, another might have red eyes and smell like brimstone. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 20:10:43
Tieflings are a bit uncommon in the 1370's Western Heartlands. Still there are plenty of places around The North with fiendish populations and fiendish creatures, half-feindish creatures and fiend blooded creatures would be somewhat uncommon. And someone seeing a humanoid that was not quite human/elf/dwarf/halfling that had "Demon like" features would not be unknown. Still, most tieflings would likey be mistaken for a half orc, or other such 'half' breed.
Even if a common folk does know and realize that the person is a "demon spawn" , they are most likely to act the same as they would to a race like the drow. Most will move away. Most will be scared. And so on. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 19:58:58
Perfect. Thank you. That gives me an idea of where else to look. Right now, I am thinking that merchants in those areas would have talked to merchants that ended up going through Iriaebor so they may have told stories about the "baby eating devils of a far away land" for a few free drinks in Iriaebor. The tales told in inns about Hellgate Keep and the "sea of devils" seen long ago in Westgate would reinforce that story. They may have even been including in the tales about Dragonspear Castle even through tieflings were not involved. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 19:42:35
Tieflings are common in the Old Empires region since always (or well, at least, since the foundation of Unther and Mulhorand), and also in Vaasa, Narfell and Damara for obvious historical reasons.
I don't know if people of Iriaebor may be knowledgeable about that, though.
Also, I have to confirm if the Asmodean curse was already in effect or not by the time (this would affect the appearance of the younger tieflings). |
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