| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| maransreth |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 06:22:59
Howdy all,
I partook in Brian Cortijo's live twitch stream today (sometimes you gotta love living in the future with time zones) and it was mentioned in the chat that the Old Empires we have today is not what Ed originally envisioned and used as his lore. I asked in chat how far east did Ed's realms originally go and George replied with Winterkeep, which makes sense as I "think" I remember a mention of Sossal in the Old Grey Box.
I also learnt recently that the Moonshaes by Douglas Niles also wasn't part of Ed's original realms. Not even sure if the Moonshaes is the original name for the island realm.
So it got me thinking of a couple of things about Ed's original realms that we no longer have.
Creator races - Did Ed originally have a history involving the Creator races?
I know FR5 The Savage Frontier has mention of "cruel lizard, amphibian and avian peoples". Were the Creator races created by Ed or by Paul Jacquays, the author of FR5, or by someone else. (no pun intended by creator created, of course :)).
Ao - Is the "Over-god" a creation of Ed's?
The original creation story of Toril, Selune and Shar that is listed on page 141 of Faiths and Avatars - did that come from the authors, Eric, Ed or someone else?
Are there other places that have been changed since Ed's time?
As Ed was interested in creating stories for his characters and then for his players, did Ed even bother with how Toril/Abeir came to be and where deities came from?
Happy to be pointed to other threads if they contain this information.
TIA
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| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Starshade |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 12:47:51
This might sound odd but... You guys liking to make typologies of Gods, any chance you guys are what MBTI or Myers Briggs would call an "INTP", "INTJ", "INSP" or "INSJ"?  What Jungian psychology call "Thinkers"?
Some DM's are good at entertaining, creating, but are not any of those 4. Those four, has been the core of the gaming marked, both analogue, and digital, for decades. I'm not, I'm a "INFJ", basically going to forums and talking/typing nonsense if I am bored.
If I roleplay, and make worlds for Players to play D&D, I make stuff as "this world is a Bronze Age style world, the gods of old died in the Chaos Wars 400 years ago, and the tiny pieces of Divine Blood in the Priest Kings, last decendants of the 40 gods, enemy of the Titans, are the last source of magic in the realm...." 
Maybe, this is more Ed's style than the super nerdy "Tolkien" ish style? I'd happily make Conlangs as well, but I'd never write an book because I made an language, I'd make a 300 word conlang, If an publish-able Fantasy Novel needed one to get into the print, as a physical book....
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| Baltas |
Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 05:38:51
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Not sure where your animosity to them comes from, but Ed himself has had the gods appear for tea in his books. Has he agreed with everything WotC has done with the gods over the years? Probably not. But that doesn't change the fact they are real and active forces in the Realms.
Yup.
Ed even detailed detailed of the gods past and other secrets. Like of Asgorath and Zotha:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/12/26/i-dont-see-much-in-the-way-of-lore-when-it-comes-to-zotha-can-you-impart-any-thing-about-its-form-or-relationship-with-asgorath/
Or Bane, Iyachtu Xvim and Jergal:
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1179837233454555139
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/06/23/im-a-little-confused-about-jergal-the-lord-of-the-end-of-everything/
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| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 04:13:37
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Ed did have Tempus or Tyr (I forget which one) appear and take on a Zhent army in the last of the Shadow of the Avatar books he wrote, and he had them kick some arse big time in a way not unlike you describe.
My own feelings are that Gods should NOT behave like Greek myth gods as naughty humans; and be much more mysterious and enigmatic - this is only because the way they are written is very inconsistent in the shared setting of novels and sometimes wildly inconsistent even within a novel in what the bad gods will do versus what the good gods do that oppose them and it frustrates me as a reader.
Leaving the gods out of it and just having them work behind the scenes through their priests and Chosen is much more pleasing as a reader, to me. But if it was done well and consistently I'd not mind.
For me it's a mix; I really like the gods (though yes, they do act very Greek sometimes), and it can be fun to have them appear "as characters" in a novel, so to speak. There are some novels that did this really well, like Evmermeet, Erevis Cale, Brimstone Angels. The Avatar series was fun, too. So I don't mind their involvement, but I agree they can be a little too "human" at times (and having a god sit down for tea is different than them appearing to help defend, or, in the case of Mask and Cale, try and sort things out with you because you're a despondent chosen). |
| Seravin |
Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 03:22:36
Ed did have Tempus or Tyr (I forget which one) appear and take on a Zhent army in the last of the Shadow of the Avatar books he wrote, and he had them kick some arse big time in a way not unlike you describe.
My own feelings are that Gods should NOT behave like Greek myth gods as naughty humans; and be much more mysterious and enigmatic - this is only because the way they are written is very inconsistent in the shared setting of novels and sometimes wildly inconsistent even within a novel in what the bad gods will do versus what the good gods do that oppose them and it frustrates me as a reader.
Leaving the gods out of it and just having them work behind the scenes through their priests and Chosen is much more pleasing as a reader, to me. But if it was done well and consistently I'd not mind. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 22:31:18
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ed has zero interest in detailing where deities come from - unlike about 98% of FR fans who seem to be in a constant existential, metaphysical search for "something more" re the gods.
-- George Krashos
Because it's interesting? Detailing--or trying to detail--the past and the cosmos makes the setting feel alive. Who knows--maybe Ed would have eventually expanded on this himself, had the Realms not been taken over by the TSR/Wotc. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 19:15:11
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Just because Ed says they are real, doesnt mean he would have them fight like cats and dogs, or teenagers on drugs.
Ed's a very nice man and wants people to enjoy his creation so he has enabled people to see bits of what they want in the realms.
The god nonsense is probably only in there because people want it, or because the likes of TSR and WoTC thought people wanted it. I'm certain Ed's vision is somewhat different. The likes of mystra and azuth appearing to players is so they can act as catalysts to good stories, not so they can behave as unruly, hormonal heroes on a power trip. I'm not even certain that Ed considers many of the beings we think of as gods as being true divine beings (that's why he created pseudo divine beings), mystra and azuth may not even be true gods if you look at their history (prior to ToT and spell plague and all that other guff)
Not sure where your animosity to them comes from, but Ed himself has had the gods appear for tea in his books. Has he agreed with everything WotC has done with the gods over the years? Probably not. But that doesn't change the fact they are real and active forces in the Realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 11:37:55
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Just because Ed says they are real, doesnt mean he would have them fight like cats and dogs, or teenagers on drugs.
Ed's a very nice man and wants people to enjoy his creation so he has enabled people to see bits of what they want in the realms.
The god nonsense is probably only in there because people want it, or because the likes of TSR and WoTC thought people wanted it. I'm certain Ed's vision is somewhat different. The likes of mystra and azuth appearing to players is so they can act as catalysts to good stories, not so they can behave as unruly, hormonal heroes on a power trip. I'm not even certain that Ed considers many of the beings we think of as gods as being true divine beings (that's why he created pseudo divine beings), mystra and azuth may not even be true gods if you look at their history (prior to ToT and spell plague and all that other guff)
Once more, you allow your blind hatred of the gods to cloud your judgement. The Realms had published info on the deities long before it was a published setting. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 07:33:45
Just because Ed says they are real, doesnt mean he would have them fight like cats and dogs, or teenagers on drugs.
Ed's a very nice man and wants people to enjoy his creation so he has enabled people to see bits of what they want in the realms.
The god nonsense is probably only in there because people want it, or because the likes of TSR and WoTC thought people wanted it. I'm certain Ed's vision is somewhat different. The likes of mystra and azuth appearing to players is so they can act as catalysts to good stories, not so they can behave as unruly, hormonal heroes on a power trip. I'm not even certain that Ed considers many of the beings we think of as gods as being true divine beings (that's why he created pseudo divine beings), mystra and azuth may not even be true gods if you look at their history (prior to ToT and spell plague and all that other guff) |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 23:06:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I never really understood this. The only product ever that made gods useful in roleplaying was the Immortal Rules way back in the day. PCs as gods fighting gods and doing god things. Other than that I can't imagine why it matters what the gods are doing - except for all the crazy RSE explanations in the novels that are just bad.
Wherever the gods came from, I love having them as part of the setting. I think they help enrich it. Ed also said in that interview that the gods are very, very real in the Realms. |
| maransreth |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 04:43:33
Hi George et al,
Thank you for the comments. It was honestly curiosity that got me thinking. I can understand Ed's desire to keep things vague about the far distant past as it honestly has no bearing on the players. It is just as a DM/world builder you like to "steal/borrow" thoughts from others that get your juices flowing.
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| Baltas |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 01:57:24
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
He did a nice thread on Twitter about the original Old Empires.
Yup.
Here is what Ed wrote about the original Unther and Mulhorand maransreth:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/07/04/the-forgotten-realms-god-kings-of-mulhorand-and-unther/
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ed has zero interest in detailing where deities come from - unlike about 98% of FR fans who seem to be in a constant existential, metaphysical search for "something more" re the gods.
-- George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I never really understood this. The only product ever that made gods useful in roleplaying was the Immortal Rules way back in the day. PCs as gods fighting gods and doing god things. Other than that I can't imagine why it matters what the gods are doing - except for all the crazy RSE explanations in the novels that are just bad.
Well, I think it's because people by nature are fascinated by larger by life characters, and search for origins of everything.
Hence the multitude of stories of gods, heroes, and the stories and theories of start of the world, cosmos, gods and humanity.
Gods had some interesting roles in stories.
(examples include - the old DC Dungeons & Dragons comics (taking place in Faerun), much less directly in Starlight & Shadows trilogy, and very directly so in Evermeet: Island of Elves both by Elaine Cunningham, Baldur's Gate series - also mostly indirectly, Enlil in Ashes of the Tyrant and The Devil You Know, in a small but impactful role - among examples.)
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| keftiu |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 22:27:30
He did a nice thread on Twitter about the original Old Empires. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 14:46:08
I never really understood this. The only product ever that made gods useful in roleplaying was the Immortal Rules way back in the day. PCs as gods fighting gods and doing god things. Other than that I can't imagine why it matters what the gods are doing - except for all the crazy RSE explanations in the novels that are just bad.
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 13:49:50
Re the Creator Races, Ed said that he deliberately kept such stuff "fuzzy" in his home campaign as that level of back story wasn't necessary for his campaign and when his PCs did query such matters, NPCs who provided responses were vague and in some instances contradictory.
Ao was created by TSR books department staff.
I believe Eric may have had a hand in the "creation myth" in F&A. Don't think Ed would have come up with that - like the Creator Races, he likes to keep his gods mysterious.
As for other changes, there are many. Ed's Realms had no Bloodstone Lands, Zakhara, Maztica, Hordelands, Kara-Tur and all the other real world analogue bolt ons. His Chessenta wasn't ancient Greek in flavour but reminiscent of the Italian city state condotierre (sp?) era. HIs Lands of Intrigue/Calimshan differed in detail from what Steven Schend came up with, as did his Impiltur and my spin on the place. There were no Bedine in Anauroch, no Inuit-rip offs in the Great Glacier, etc. etc.
The term Abeir-Toril was created by Jeff Grubb so it could be the first entry in the Cyclopedia of the Realms booklet in the Ol' Grey Box. Ed's Realms never had an Abeir and Abeir wasn't Abeir until 4E and the Spellplague needed it to be a thing (although Ed always had various open and not so open "reset" mechanisms scattered throughout the lore for such big, in game changes).
Ed has zero interest in detailing where deities come from - unlike about 98% of FR fans who seem to be in a constant existential, metaphysical search for "something more" re the gods.
-- George Krashos |
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