| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| keftiu |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 10:00:37
Is she forever doomed to be a sneering villain, or do you think she might ever take a turn? I know the non-canon LFR finale adventure offered the chance of her atoning. |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Baltas |
Posted - 24 Jan 2020 : 09:37:57
With a redeemed Shar, one can also see as a needed element of destruction, similarly to the mentioned by me Shiva and Kali in the "Why worship Dendar?" thread.
Shar as the Dark Dancer, could be even compared to Shiva as Nataraja.
The Wyrm from the World of Darkness (specificaly the Werewolf: Apocalypse) is also portrayed as a corrupted Shivan destroyer, but who can be redeemed.
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Wyrm
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Perfect_Metis
Another thing, could be focusing redeemed Shar's portfolio around the Darkcloaks:
"Unusual among other orders in the Church, the Darkcloaks were actually a compassionate group of oracles and care-givers who tended to those troubled souls who were emotionally damaged, often bringing the bliss of forgetfulness to soothe their pain. Their work did much to present the church in a positive light to the populace, though quite often the reaction was still negative. This order included some of the few non-evil, and even law-abiding clerics of the Church." |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 05:27:07
I don't see Shar as a blatantly evil deity at any rate. I think of her more as a Neutral deity with evil tendencies only.
On more than one occasion she has fought to protect creation, and I greatly dislike what was done with her becoming a nihilist deity...I hate it really.
I did run a campaign that used 3.x edition rules and there was Shadow Magic as well; but currently I haven't done this in my home campaign.
I think Shar should remain an aloof power that actually compliments Selune since they were once essentially the same power. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 04:25:43
Shar fills a "void" (pun intended) in that she offers an end to suffering, though her methodology is twisted, and, in a world where there are various good alternatives to her nihilism, I think her "redemption" would have to take a different form than it would for other evil deities, just due to the very nature of what she is. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 19 Jan 2020 : 14:13:51
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
According to elminster anyways.
Trusting Elminster on something pertaining one of the nemesis of his sugar mommy is not wise. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 18 Jan 2020 : 20:21:36
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
All she’s ever wanted is a complete return to the nothingness that existed before creation. I don’t define that as a sneering, greedy, demonic or devilish evil, but it’s hard to see her as anything but evil with that motivation. I know it’s just a children’s movie, but that was what the demon Azazel intended in the “House with the Clock in the Walls”. Seeing to the non existence of every living creature ever seems pretty dark to me.
Get ready for incoming complaints about how overdone Shar was in 3e. I don’t disagree, but I guess redemption would be a wholly different arc. I thoroughly enjoyed Mask’s evolution, though I wouldn’t say it was a full on redemption.
She doesn't ever want to win. She needs balance so good people despair over what her minions do.
Her supposed goal of ending reality is a lie. Smoke and mirrors. According to elminster anyways. It came up in the Herald or spellstorm |
| Baltas |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 00:04:32
Actually Shar and Sharess have definite similarities. As I mentioned, in time of Netheril, Shar had the portfolio of seduction, and one of her titles was "the Shadowy Seductress".
Not to mention Shar's avatar can seduce anyone to her service with a kiss - pretty seductive behavior, connecting to Sharess, along with the fact her avatars as "the Nightsinger" and "the Dark Dancer", further connect with Sharess as "The Dancing Lady".
The mentioned "Powers & Pantheons" stated the decadence of Sharess, was the prelude to the despair of Shar, after all hollow pleasures worn a person of.
Also in "Powers & Pantheons", it's mentioned Sharess's clergy tell stories that Garagos/Targos and Jergal competing over Sharess' affection, which is known have been the case with Shar, not Bast, Zandilar or Felidae. And that the the Avatars of three still meet in "The Meeting of Three", which fit with Shar, not Sharess, seeing Garagos and Jergal are Netherese deities.
With this at least also seems Sharess did absorb at least some of Shar's myths at least, but even more because of this, I think shows vestiges of the fact Sharess originally was planned to be Shar's aspect.
Wit Shar, she maybe never wasn't exactly good, but she wasn't at least always evil as even suggested in "Sisters of Light and Darkness".
With Shar destroying all worlds, it quite possible this is meant to be the use the Dark Side Makes you Forget" trope, were Shar's original motivations deteriorated (along with seeming her mental state - prolonged depression can lead to more serious mental health issues. It's also to me at least implied Shar wants to return everything to nothing as to a more natural state, and a mercy of sorts - of nonexistence) (of course, along with the fact the writers wanted to make Shar more of a threat, and probably exaggerated her goals).
Would Shar's redemption be difficult? Yes, but with that, it could make for an interesting story. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 23:01:51
I think the OGB reference was a belief that has later been stated to be incorrect. I honestly don't see any similarity between Shar and Sharess, aside from the name.
Powers & Pantheons explains how Bast fell under Shar's influence and became known as Sharess, and was seen as an aspect of Shar. She was freed after the Time of Troubles, though.
And her listing in the OGB doesn't prove that Ed had anything to do with Sharess -- he was not the sole author of that boxed set. Sharess is not listed in "Down-to-earth Divinity", the list of Realms deities Ed described in Dragon 54, so I'm inclined to think that she's not from Ed's pen.
All that aside, I really can't imagine a story arc that would lead to Shar's redemption -- especially since 3E took the idea of "she just wants to return to the nothingness that existed before" and changed it to "she's all about destruction, to the point of spreading to other worlds just to destroy them." Redemption story arcs usually feature a return to a lost innocence, a deliberate turn away from evil to go back to what the person was before -- and Shar was never good.
I'm not saying that someone who was never good is forever irredeemable, and cannot ever become good -- but it does make that journey much, much more difficult. And that's just for vanilla mortals -- a greater deity that literally predates the existence of all life in their home sphere is another level entirely. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 20:43:02
Well, I think Shar could be redeemed.
Again, Sharess was originally characterized as an benevolent aspect of Shar (presumably evolving from her seemingly lost seduction portfolio, and her Nightdancer aspect). As stated in the 1st edition Realms Cyclopedia:
quote:
Sharess, a CG aspect of Shar worshiped in Calimshan, Waterdeep, and by idle rich or decadents all over the Realms.
From the 2nd edition campaign setting:
quote:
This strange and radiant demipower is
believed to have once been a part of Shar, the
goddess of night and loss. She is a chaotic
good deity worshipped in large urban areas
such as Waterdeep, Calimport, and other cities
along the Sword Coast.
So I think Ed did intend Shar to have some good within her.
One could say Sharess still contains this aspect of Shar (along with Shar, Zandilar, and Felidae), and she, Sune and Selune could use this as a key to redeem Shar. |
| Nilus Reynard |
Posted - 10 Jan 2020 : 19:47:49
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
I don't want Shar to have a "redemption". Every fantasy world needs to have an irrevocably evil greater power to offset the overly virtuous good greater power. A ying to their yang, if you will.
Lolth? Asmodeus? Ghanandaur? Cyric? Bane? Any demon prince or archdevil? Aberrations? Elder evils? Most of the Primordials? The Realms aren’t exactly lacking cosmic baddies.
Never said there wasn't, did I. I was talking about Shar. She is interesting because of who she is now, changing or "redeeming" her would definitely take away from that. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 10 Jan 2020 : 11:44:51
Why Shar instead of, say, Bane? It seems odd to single out Shar specifically, the only evil deity who's actually doing things.
The problem with Shar is not that she's evil, it's that she's comic evil. She's also the goddess of loss, forgetfulness and secrets, which seems to be forgotten in recent events. She can definitely be a maternal, loving, caring goddess; it's just that she's relentlessly evil as well.
As for the other gods you mentioned, none of them are actually doing anything. Ilsensine, the Blood Queen, the Great Mother, Gzemnid, the Dark Trinity and the Lords of the Nine haven't done anything of note in years; the most is Lolth shaking up the drow during the Resurrection novels. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 10 Jan 2020 : 09:42:51
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
I don't want Shar to have a "redemption". Every fantasy world needs to have an irrevocably evil greater power to offset the overly virtuous good greater power. A ying to their yang, if you will.
Lolth? Asmodeus? Ghanandaur? Cyric? Bane? Any demon prince or archdevil? Aberrations? Elder evils? Most of the Primordials? The Realms aren’t exactly lacking cosmic baddies. |
| Nilus Reynard |
Posted - 10 Jan 2020 : 07:42:13
I don't want Shar to have a "redemption". Every fantasy world needs to have an irrevocably evil greater power to offset the overly virtuous good greater power. A ying to their yang, if you will. |
| BrennonGoldeye |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 21:11:04
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Is she forever doomed to be a sneering villain, or do you think she might ever take a turn? I know the non-canon LFR finale adventure offered the chance of her atoning.
My Mystra 2 had contingencies,Mystra 4 is making Her move. Shar is soon to get her comeuppance for Her actions. Loss is all she will have.....Muhahahahah! Well if the PCs figure it out that is.  |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 15:58:03
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
All she’s ever wanted is a complete return to the nothingness that existed before creation. I don’t define that as a sneering, greedy, demonic or devilish evil, but it’s hard to see her as anything but evil with that motivation.
I aggree. Shars "redemtion" would mean hear switching to another portfolio. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 13:39:28
It was just a mood swing. The goddess of depression got depressed and otherwise emotionally distraught and tried to take it out on her daughter (who had after all taken all of her best traits and left her old and wasted with a darkening complexion). |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 09 Jan 2020 : 10:52:09
All she’s ever wanted is a complete return to the nothingness that existed before creation. I don’t define that as a sneering, greedy, demonic or devilish evil, but it’s hard to see her as anything but evil with that motivation. I know it’s just a children’s movie, but that was what the demon Azazel intended in the “House with the Clock in the Walls”. Seeing to the non existence of every living creature ever seems pretty dark to me.
Get ready for incoming complaints about how overdone Shar was in 3e. I don’t disagree, but I guess redemption would be a wholly different arc. I thoroughly enjoyed Mask’s evolution, though I wouldn’t say it was a full on redemption. |
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