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 Why has the Aglarond-Thay war stopped?

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
keftiu Posted - 14 Dec 2019 : 22:11:02
In 4e’s setting, Aglarond was fighting what sure seemed like a losing war against Thay, who was invading them with an army of undead supplemented with orc and gnoll mercenaries; come 5e, the scant info we have says that the fighting has stopped because Aglarond’s ruling council has “backed away from hostilities,” as if they were the aggressor. Any insight folks might have on this?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 22:03:29
Master Zeromaru X,

The original deal, as far as I am aware is the FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards from 1988, followed by the Spellbound Boxset. Those are the most informative. That being said, there is a ton of material out there on Thay! :)

[url]https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Thay[/ur]

Polyhderon #74 as well, from the early 90's.

Best regards as always,




quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

Oh, I concur with your point about the slaves: slaves are not people there. That's just how Thay is. Pro-slavery, deny basic rights, etc. When I was talking about how the "people" likely didn't see themselves as evil, I was talking about the non-slaves. Slaves as far as I've read as well in Thay are just that: sub-species, not worthy of anything, so we wouldn't include them in any relevant discussions about rights, privileges, etc.

For me, the pre-undead Thay is alluring because of its potential. The unabashed approach to magic that they take which in many other countries would be denied because of risk to life, property, and more. They could be a real powerhouse nation that could have so much more influence in their region, and by that, create more fantastic adventuring opportunities for characters. :)

Best regards,



I see. It makes sense, even if I still see it as a place of evil. Just change undead for evil living magi.

Do you know sources where I can learn more about the original Thay. Even if I never use it, it's good to know how it was before Szass Tam. As already mentioned, I have the 3e Unapproachable East sourcebook.

Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 19:05:31
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

Oh, I concur with your point about the slaves: slaves are not people there. That's just how Thay is. Pro-slavery, deny basic rights, etc. When I was talking about how the "people" likely didn't see themselves as evil, I was talking about the non-slaves. Slaves as far as I've read as well in Thay are just that: sub-species, not worthy of anything, so we wouldn't include them in any relevant discussions about rights, privileges, etc.

For me, the pre-undead Thay is alluring because of its potential. The unabashed approach to magic that they take which in many other countries would be denied because of risk to life, property, and more. They could be a real powerhouse nation that could have so much more influence in their region, and by that, create more fantastic adventuring opportunities for characters. :)

Best regards,



I see. It makes sense, even if I still see it as a place of evil. Just change undead for evil living magi.

Do you know sources where I can learn more about the original Thay. Even if I never use it, it's good to know how it was before Szass Tam. As already mentioned, I have the 3e Unapproachable East sourcebook.
cpthero2 Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 16:43:37
Master Zeromaru X,

Oh, I concur with your point about the slaves: slaves are not people there. That's just how Thay is. Pro-slavery, deny basic rights, etc. When I was talking about how the "people" likely didn't see themselves as evil, I was talking about the non-slaves. Slaves as far as I've read as well in Thay are just that: sub-species, not worthy of anything, so we wouldn't include them in any relevant discussions about rights, privileges, etc.

For me, the pre-undead Thay is alluring because of its potential. The unabashed approach to magic that they take which in many other countries would be denied because of risk to life, property, and more. They could be a real powerhouse nation that could have so much more influence in their region, and by that, create more fantastic adventuring opportunities for characters. :)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

I can absolutely concur with the outlook that people of Thay may not see themselves as evil. It's all about what they've been acculturated too, in terms or values, ethics, and morals. Clearly Thay is a consequentialist country focusing on what delivers the best (Utilitarian specifically) to the masses. That's why the silliness of how alignment is dealt with in D&D in general is so childish. It reduces the very nature of people, why they make their decisions for a job, to take a life, to be kind, or mean, to plot map.

The Realms are a lot richer, because they are grayer, with all of the values based issues. People love to have it easy and have clear cut choices, etc., but we all know, that's not how it works.

The best characters deal with those moral and ethical quandaries all the time.

Best regards,



Oh, yeah. But the "grey morality dilemma" can be used either in Nazi Thay and in Undead Thay. It's not something inherent of a given version of something.

Anyway, I read Unapproachable East's section about Thay, and I found that slaves there are harshly treated (see the Rashemi entry) and that they are non-persons without any rights. I didn't find any entry saying they were "well-treated" or something like that. So, basically, no different between Thayan slaves and Thayan undead... or between Thay, and Calimshan, or Unther, or *insert here any other slaver nation of pre-Spellplague Faerûn*...

Again, I fail to see the alure of the pre-undead Thay.

Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 16:33:17
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

I can absolutely concur with the outlook that people of Thay may not see themselves as evil. It's all about what they've been acculturated too, in terms or values, ethics, and morals. Clearly Thay is a consequentialist country focusing on what delivers the best (Utilitarian specifically) to the masses. That's why the silliness of how alignment is dealt with in D&D in general is so childish. It reduces the very nature of people, why they make their decisions for a job, to take a life, to be kind, or mean, to plot map.

The Realms are a lot richer, because they are grayer, with all of the values based issues. People love to have it easy and have clear cut choices, etc., but we all know, that's not how it works.

The best characters deal with those moral and ethical quandaries all the time.

Best regards,



Oh, yeah. But the "grey morality dilemma" can be used either in Nazi Thay and in Undead Thay. It's not something inherent of a given version of something.

Anyway, I read Unapproachable East's section about Thay, and I found that slaves there are harshly treated (see the Rashemi entry) and that they are non-persons without any rights. I didn't find any entry saying they were "well-treated" or something like that. So, basically, no different between Thayan slaves and Thayan undead... or between Thay, and Calimshan, or Unther, or *insert here any other slaver nation of pre-Spellplague Faerûn*...

Again, I fail to see the alure of the pre-undead Thay.
cpthero2 Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 02:44:27
Great Reader sleyvas,

I can absolutely concur with the outlook that people of Thay may not see themselves as evil. It's all about what they've been acculturated too, in terms or values, ethics, and morals. Clearly Thay is a consequentialist country focusing on what delivers the best (Utilitarian specifically) to the masses. That's why the silliness of how alignment is dealt with in D&D in general is so childish. It reduces the very nature of people, why they make their decisions for a job, to take a life, to be kind, or mean, to plot map.

The Realms are a lot richer, because they are grayer, with all of the values based issues. People love to have it easy and have clear cut choices, etc., but we all know, that's not how it works.

The best characters deal with those moral and ethical quandaries all the time.

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.



Oh, sorry. I guess it sounded like if I was criticizing your idea, but I was talking about the canonical Thay. If it's just another magocracy of evulz slavers (that, TBH, there's a LOT of those in the Realms... like 5 or 6 in Faerûn alone), then I prefer it's 4e incarnation. And, honestly, I fail to see the alure of the original canon Thay if it just yet another evil nation of evil, racist/speciesist slavers...

Your idea of the tarches is really good (I've said this in a lot of post now, lol), tho I have a few qualms because it bends to much the canonical stuff.

As for Tam vs the Eminence, in my Realms Lod is still alive (and I guess I'm going to ignore his canonical death), so for the moment, Tam and Lod are at odds. And as I said, the conflict it useful for my campaign as it allows the players to not feel themselves railroaded to fight against the Thayans.



I can see why in hindsight this culture tends to look like many of the others to you having come in after it fell, but Thay was a good bit different than the classic tropes, so if you don't mind I'll kind of touch on that for a second.

The big difference between them and other slave cultures comes down to how they used them to a degree. Unlike say Calimshan, which just grinds the lower classes down, or Unther that did much the same... Thay was a beautiful country, with abundant wealth and food for its citizens IN GENERAL. Most Thayan slaves were likely the cast off criminals taken from other countries. So, most citizens aren't oppressed by the ruling class. Basically, one can see why some people living in Thay could actually not see the evil in their country. They may make hard choices "but its for the good of the many". One can also see why they believe their race to be preeminent, because they aren't so advantaged that they believe they're entitled to their positions (Mulan people still must strive to advance within their government, and royalty only extends to one's children and not the grandchildren... so each generation must earn the right to be noble). Now, were all Thayan campaigns portrayed this way? No.

Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 02:12:40
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


That all comes down to "do you want Tam to be the Sauron of the realms". Personally, I don't. For that role, we already have a being like Larloch. I'd rather Tam as a threat to the Eastern Realms. I throw out the hordelands because it is relatively near to Thay (just the other side of their own sunrise mountains). However, he could just as easily move into some place like the western portions of Chessenta (Cimbar and Soorenar both previously had huge populations, and Soorenar was the mortal home of the god of necromancy with its "Tower Terrible"). I personally wouldn't like that, but it could work.



All fantasy settings needs a Sauron. I mean, if we have hobbits enforced in the Realms cuz Tolkien (even when they have no context and are just "small humans") then why not a Sauron?

As for Larloch, I didn't knew about him when I started my campaign, but I see that he is the kind of "sleeping evil", not the "active evil" both 4e Thay and Netheril were. I don't think he will make a good Sauron. He is more like Cthulhu, sleeping in his keep until the stars are right, something that will not happen in this lifetime.


On the Crintri/Dambrath, I don't have something against them. In fact, I find them more interesting than current day Dambrath (though, there is the issue that in the Realms, all matriarchies are portrayed as evil that is worrisome...). I just wondered why people here like that much the evil slaver tropes, but dislike other evil tropes that are more palatable, such as the evil empire or the necroland...
Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 02:00:29
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


I can see why in hindsight this culture tends to look like many of the others to you having come in after it fell, but Thay was a good bit different than the classic tropes, so if you don't mind I'll kind of touch on that for a second.

The big difference between them and other slave cultures comes down to how they used them to a degree. Unlike say Calimshan, which just grinds the lower classes down, or Unther that did much the same... Thay was a beautiful country, with abundant wealth and food for its citizens IN GENERAL. Most Thayan slaves were likely the cast off criminals taken from other countries. So, most citizens aren't oppressed by the ruling class. Basically, one can see why some people living in Thay could actually not see the evil in their country. They may make hard choices "but its for the good of the many". One can also see why they believe their race to be preeminent, because they aren't so advantaged that they believe they're entitled to their positions (Mulan people still must strive to advance within their government, and royalty only extends to one's children and not the grandchildren... so each generation must earn the right to be noble). Now, were all Thayan campaigns portrayed this way? No.



Well, I don't know if you have played or know about Dragon Age videogames, but that situation makes me remember one of the conversations with one of the characters about how slavery was all bad and that stuff, but there is that country where "serfs" are well-treated and well-payed, and the character answers "I prefer to be poor and free than a well-treated slave".

Slavery is an evil thing, and that doesn't change no matter how you put it. A well-treated slave is still a slave, when all comes down to it.

And this don't even touch the stuff of racial-supremacism that you mentioned (like non-human only slaves and that stuff). I really fail to see the beautiful country you mention behind all the mage nazis that ruled the original Thay. It's not something I would like to use in my games. I find the "necroland" more palatable.

But, I may be biased here. So, I guess I'm going to search old sources to search for that beautiful place you mention that I fail to see.
cpthero2 Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 01:44:43
Great Reader sleyvas,

I don't want to see Tam as the Sauron of the Realms. To be honest...I think that very well may over time go to Khelben Arunsun. He isn't that bad now, but some of the things he's done (though, admittedly, he has done much good too) makes me think he's got a purple light saber and could go either way at any time.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was thinking a bit about this.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, those who know me know I've gone a different path, but one that kind of aligns with the goals of 5e. Basically, I feel the Tam taking over Thay and turning it into undead land was no good. I'd prefer that he get ousted and setup an undead place somewhere in the hordelands where he can still be a problem, but not one in Thay.



I feel that sending him to a faraway place like the Hordelands makes his threat irrelevant. I mean, the gist of an "evil, undead nation" is that it can be an immediate threat to (and a foil to) nations like Cormyr and the city-states of the Sword Coast, something that can be used as a "looming war in the horizon" kind of feeling, full of hooks for players and DMs. That's why I feel Thay is the perfect "actively evil nation" in the Realms: Is in a corner of the map, so you can have the other countries live "normal lives", but is close enough to the traditional "Feudal European-expy nations" to feel like its threat is a real one.

In the Hordelands Tam maybe will be a threat to Thay, but he will be not a relevant one to the rest of Faerûn.
He just will be wasted, like everything set in Kara-Tur.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

for instance, there is a significant Crintri population that was to recapture Dambrath



Aren't the Crinti another set of "evil slavers" NPCs? I'm beginning to wonder why people here like the "evil slaver culture" trope that much...





That all comes down to "do you want Tam to be the Sauron of the realms". Personally, I don't. For that role, we already have a being like Larloch. I'd rather Tam as a threat to the Eastern Realms. I throw out the hordelands because it is relatively near to Thay (just the other side of their own sunrise mountains). However, he could just as easily move into some place like the western portions of Chessenta (Cimbar and Soorenar both previously had huge populations, and Soorenar was the mortal home of the god of necromancy with its "Tower Terrible"). I personally wouldn't like that, but it could work.

On the Crintri/Dambrath… they weren't big slavers. They were racists and pirates though. They also worshipped Loviatar, so they were masochists. They were also a matriarchy that wasn't portrayed as mothering without having to be crazy drow beneath the surface. Essentially, they were a bunch of entitled females who believed they were better than everyone else and loved their horses more than other people. Now, why do I like this culture? Because just like in our world there are often people who are like this, but the way the realms is, it could encourage this. I've said in the past that the forgotten realms isn't politically correct, and by that I mean that people live a life where a monster might move in and eat their children, destroy their home, take their gold... so if someone provides protection, the "little people" are likely to be happy to let these same people think they are extremely important. So, if the Crintri want to roam the countryside and take invaders, strap them to a pole and whip them... hey at least those invaders aren't raping or eating the populace. Its that lack of fear of someone just coming in and destroying everything you own that's become lost in our own world/society that makes us sometimes not see why the realms would be different. But goblins exist there, and so do gnolls and orcs and ogres and unseelie fey, etc... and most such creatures view humans as a meal, plaything, or just simply something to kill.

sleyvas Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 01:41:17
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was thinking a bit about this.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, those who know me know I've gone a different path, but one that kind of aligns with the goals of 5e. Basically, I feel the Tam taking over Thay and turning it into undead land was no good. I'd prefer that he get ousted and setup an undead place somewhere in the hordelands where he can still be a problem, but not one in Thay.



I feel that sending him to a faraway place like the Hordelands makes his threat irrelevant. I mean, the gist of an "evil, undead nation" is that it can be an immediate threat to (and a foil to) nations like Cormyr and the city-states of the Sword Coast, something that can be used as a "looming war in the horizon" kind of feeling, full of hooks for players and DMs. That's why I feel Thay is the perfect "actively evil nation" in the Realms: Is in a corner of the map, so you can have the other countries live "normal lives", but is close enough to the traditional "Feudal European-expy nations" to feel like its threat is a real one.

In the Hordelands Tam maybe will be a threat to Thay, but he will be not a relevant one to the rest of Faerûn.
He just will be wasted, like everything set in Kara-Tur.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

for instance, there is a significant Crintri population that was to recapture Dambrath



Aren't the Crinti another set of "evil slavers" NPCs? I'm beginning to wonder why people here like the "evil slaver culture" trope that much...





That all comes down to "do you want Tam to be the Sauron of the realms". Personally, I don't. For that role, we already have a being like Larloch. I'd rather Tam as a threat to the Eastern Realms. I throw out the hordelands because it is relatively near to Thay (just the other side of their own sunrise mountains). However, he could just as easily move into some place like the western portions of Chessenta (Cimbar and Soorenar both previously had huge populations, and Soorenar was the mortal home of the god of necromancy with its "Tower Terrible"). I personally wouldn't like that, but it could work.

On the Crintri/Dambrath… they weren't big slavers. They were racists and pirates though. They also worshipped Loviatar, so they were masochists. They were also a matriarchy that wasn't portrayed as mothering without having to be crazy drow beneath the surface. Essentially, they were a bunch of entitled females who believed they were better than everyone else and loved their horses more than other people. Now, why do I like this culture? Because just like in our world there are often people who are like this, but the way the realms is, it could encourage this. I've said in the past that the forgotten realms isn't politically correct, and by that I mean that people live a life where a monster might move in and eat their children, destroy their home, take their gold... so if someone provides protection, the "little people" are likely to be happy to let these same people think they are extremely important. So, if the Crintri want to roam the countryside and take invaders, strap them to a pole and whip them... hey at least those invaders aren't raping or eating the populace. Its that lack of fear of someone just coming in and destroying everything you own that's become lost in our own world/society that makes us sometimes not see why the realms would be different. But goblins exist there, and so do gnolls and orcs and ogres and unseelie fey, etc... and most such creatures view humans as a meal, plaything, or just simply something to kill.
sleyvas Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 01:16:38
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.



Oh, sorry. I guess it sounded like if I was criticizing your idea, but I was talking about the canonical Thay. If it's just another magocracy of evulz slavers (that, TBH, there's a LOT of those in the Realms... like 5 or 6 in Faerûn alone), then I prefer it's 4e incarnation. And, honestly, I fail to see the alure of the original canon Thay if it just yet another evil nation of evil, racist/speciesist slavers...

Your idea of the tarches is really good (I've said this in a lot of post now, lol), tho I have a few qualms because it bends to much the canonical stuff.

As for Tam vs the Eminence, in my Realms Lod is still alive (and I guess I'm going to ignore his canonical death), so for the moment, Tam and Lod are at odds. And as I said, the conflict it useful for my campaign as it allows the players to not feel themselves railroaded to fight against the Thayans.



I can see why in hindsight this culture tends to look like many of the others to you having come in after it fell, but Thay was a good bit different than the classic tropes, so if you don't mind I'll kind of touch on that for a second.

The big difference between them and other slave cultures comes down to how they used them to a degree. Unlike say Calimshan, which just grinds the lower classes down, or Unther that did much the same... Thay was a beautiful country, with abundant wealth and food for its citizens IN GENERAL. Most Thayan slaves were likely the cast off criminals taken from other countries. So, most citizens aren't oppressed by the ruling class. Basically, one can see why some people living in Thay could actually not see the evil in their country. They may make hard choices "but its for the good of the many". One can also see why they believe their race to be preeminent, because they aren't so advantaged that they believe they're entitled to their positions (Mulan people still must strive to advance within their government, and royalty only extends to one's children and not the grandchildren... so each generation must earn the right to be noble). Now, were all Thayan campaigns portrayed this way? No.
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 21:22:40
Master Zeromaru X,

Oh, I agree it is not them alone, for sure. Hasbro has always been known to be tightfisted and bottom line. An important function for any CEO is to be able to capture the data and provide results to that CEO and Board above you. Chris Cocks has a lot of experience in marketing. Hasbro has a ton of expertise in supply chain management (hence their recent sourcing decision regarding China after their awful Q32019), so they WotC doesn't have to be as masterful with that as they do with product and service management. That is right in Chris Cocks' backyard with his resume.

I just really think Cocks should go get a little rougher with the board, but back up his veracity with the data for that ever critical projection to show why it would pay off in the long term to get things squared away.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

I think the lack of consistency and what not is just WotC as the deciders waking up and having a big bowl of "I don't give a crap" for breakfast. Which is sad. What can we do other than discuss it in detail here and kind of get good ideas to tool it into our own ends?

Best regards,



I don't think WotC is to blame alone. I know some of them have a fame of disregarding lore, but a few others are known for caring about lore. The thing is that WotC answers to Hasbro. And Hasbro cares only about money.

Zeromaru X Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 19:30:00
I was thinking a bit about this.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Well, those who know me know I've gone a different path, but one that kind of aligns with the goals of 5e. Basically, I feel the Tam taking over Thay and turning it into undead land was no good. I'd prefer that he get ousted and setup an undead place somewhere in the hordelands where he can still be a problem, but not one in Thay.



I feel that sending him to a faraway place like the Hordelands makes his threat irrelevant. I mean, the gist of an "evil, undead nation" is that it can be an immediate threat to (and a foil to) nations like Cormyr and the city-states of the Sword Coast, something that can be used as a "looming war in the horizon" kind of feeling, full of hooks for players and DMs. That's why I feel Thay is the perfect "actively evil nation" in the Realms: Is in a corner of the map, so you can have the other countries live "normal lives", but is close enough to the traditional "Feudal European-expy nations" to feel like its threat is a real one.

In the Hordelands Tam maybe will be a threat to Thay, but he will be not a relevant one to the rest of Faerûn.
He just will be wasted, like everything set in Kara-Tur.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

for instance, there is a significant Crintri population that was to recapture Dambrath



Aren't the Crinti another set of "evil slavers" NPCs? I'm beginning to wonder why people here like the "evil slaver culture" trope that much...
Zeromaru X Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 14:30:50
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

I think the lack of consistency and what not is just WotC as the deciders waking up and having a big bowl of "I don't give a crap" for breakfast. Which is sad. What can we do other than discuss it in detail here and kind of get good ideas to tool it into our own ends?

Best regards,



I don't think WotC is to blame alone. I know some of them have a fame of disregarding lore, but a few others are known for caring about lore. The thing is that WotC answers to Hasbro. And Hasbro cares only about money.
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 05:10:45
Master Zeromaru X,

I think the lack of consistency and what not is just WotC as the deciders waking up and having a big bowl of "I don't give a crap" for breakfast. Which is sad. What can we do other than discuss it in detail here and kind of get good ideas to tool it into our own ends?

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu


I would assume killing everyone there would generate the death energy for his rite. And he is on the offensive; 4e FRCS establishes he captured a border city, Undummor, that’s being used as a beachheads, and will probably push over the border into Glarondar, too.


Yeah, but at the same time he is sending forces to Neverwinter AND waging war against the Netherese both in Neverwinter Wood and in the Shadowfell (and the NCS happens at the same time that the 4e FRCG). Plus, the 4e FRCG states that is at war with the Eminence of Araunt in the crypts and that stuff... so, Tam has more priorities than just Aglarond, and the necessity of turning Aglarond into Necroland #18 is something new (it arised last year, in the timeline of the 4e FRCG). And then, at all that stuff of 5e and the Thayan Revolution.

So, I see Aglarond as the least of his priorities right now.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


5e Thay isn't back at the status quo. It's still a mostly undead nation, but the difference is that there are factions of living Red Wizards wanting to restore the Zulkirate. Apparently, however, they have reached some kind of agreement with Tam? Maybe? Not sure, the SCAG made it sound like this.



It depends on the source you use. And I mean it. The SCAG mentions the truce you talk about. But Death in Thay mentions Tam was expelled from Thay. Problem is, the SCAG is the newer source... and then the AL adventures state Tam is still in Thay, but the living mages are there as well...

Welcome to 5e's lore "consistency". And people here only complaints about 4e.

cpthero2 Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 05:07:40
Great Reader Irennan,

I just wonder a) what the deal would be, and b) what would be the impetus for it? I mean, frankly the negotiations in light of how much he has tried to take them to the mat in the civil war makes me wonder, a lot.

What do you think it could be?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still would have preferred to see the Thayan Civil War I've discussed before: Szass Tam makes a play for power but it doesn't go as planned, and some Zulkirs side with him, while others -- including the Red Wal-Mart guys -- set up a Thay-In-Exile government in Mulmaster.

Both sides would have been working against the other, and just about every power group in the Realms would have some sort of involvement -- either stirring things up between the two factions, or trying to aid one faction over the other. Some groups would be doing it for their own power, some just to make money, some would work against one or both groups for ideological reasons...

I'm not saying it would be like the clumsy faction stuff that WotC's doing, with groups being involved in issues that have no interest to them and are clearly beyond their sphere of influence... But given the reach of the Red Wizards and their varied interests, a lot of groups would have reason to interfere, to varying degrees.

It would be a huge opportunity for role-playing, because of that... And for me, at least, far more interesting than Generic Necro-Land #17.



I mean, that very much could be somewhere in the 5e story since we don’t know how Thay went from Tam’s nightmareland to 5e’s return to status quo.



5e Thay isn't back at the status quo. It's still a mostly undead nation, but the difference is that there are factions of living Red Wizards wanting to restore the Zulkirate. Apparently, however, they have reached some kind of agreement with Tam? Maybe? Not sure, the SCAG made it sound like this.

cpthero2 Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 04:56:51
Master Zeromaru X,

Well, there are two ways to look at that I feel:

1) The seemingly non-conventional approach that mages play with their games of domination, protection, etc. in the world approach, and largely (minus certain series like the Empire Series as one example) ignore conventional as an aspect of war, and stories, etc.

2) Include the conventional component alongside the magic aspect. There is a reason to take Aglarond: resources. It's why 99% of wars begin. In a world of magic alongside everything else you have, land itself, ports, natural resources in water, trees, arable land for crops, military grounds for training, infrastructure that you can take and not have to build, etc.

I'd personally like it if they added in that element. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it seems like it is vastly underutilized as a means of conquest, etc.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, if I've understood the novels correctly (as English is not my native tongue, I may be lost in translation), but it seems Tam is not interested in Aglarond at all. He needs a place where his ritual can be done, but Aglarond don't meet the requirements. Neverwinter does (the large number of casualties during the eruption of Mount Hotenow and the subsequent destruction of the city). Thay also meet those requirements until the ritual was botched by the other Zulkirs, just a year before the starting date of a 4e campaign. I guess this is why Tam just send forces to stop invaders, but never attacks in earnest. He gains nothing conquering Aglarond.

Irennan Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 03:52:31
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


It depends on the source you use. And I mean it. The SCAG mentions the truce you talk about. But Death in Thay mentions Tam was expelled from Thay. Problem is, the SCAG is the newer source... and then the AL adventures state Tam is still in Thay, but the living mages are there as well...

Welcome to 5e's lore "consistency". And people here only complaints about 4e.



If AL states that both factions are still in Thay, then they're using the SCAG lore. It means that after Dead in Thay, something happened that led to this. Granted, 5e has tons of problems in terms of consistency, but here I see a gap to fill more than hard incompatibility.
keftiu Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 03:31:04
Zeromaru, got a source on the Aglarond war being that new? I could never find a date for that or Tam’s ritual.
Zeromaru X Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 03:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu


I would assume killing everyone there would generate the death energy for his rite. And he is on the offensive; 4e FRCS establishes he captured a border city, Undummor, that’s being used as a beachheads, and will probably push over the border into Glarondar, too.


Yeah, but at the same time he is sending forces to Neverwinter AND waging war against the Netherese both in Neverwinter Wood and in the Shadowfell (and the NCS happens at the same time that the 4e FRCG). Plus, the 4e FRCG states that is at war with the Eminence of Araunt in the crypts and that stuff... so, Tam has more priorities than just Aglarond, and the necessity of turning Aglarond into Necroland #18 is something new (it arised last year, in the timeline of the 4e FRCG). And then, at all that stuff of 5e and the Thayan Revolution.

So, I see Aglarond as the least of his priorities right now.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


5e Thay isn't back at the status quo. It's still a mostly undead nation, but the difference is that there are factions of living Red Wizards wanting to restore the Zulkirate. Apparently, however, they have reached some kind of agreement with Tam? Maybe? Not sure, the SCAG made it sound like this.



It depends on the source you use. And I mean it. The SCAG mentions the truce you talk about. But Death in Thay mentions Tam was expelled from Thay. Problem is, the SCAG is the newer source... and then the AL adventures state Tam is still in Thay, but the living mages are there as well...

Welcome to 5e's lore "consistency". And people here only complaints about 4e.
Irennan Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 02:37:56
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still would have preferred to see the Thayan Civil War I've discussed before: Szass Tam makes a play for power but it doesn't go as planned, and some Zulkirs side with him, while others -- including the Red Wal-Mart guys -- set up a Thay-In-Exile government in Mulmaster.

Both sides would have been working against the other, and just about every power group in the Realms would have some sort of involvement -- either stirring things up between the two factions, or trying to aid one faction over the other. Some groups would be doing it for their own power, some just to make money, some would work against one or both groups for ideological reasons...

I'm not saying it would be like the clumsy faction stuff that WotC's doing, with groups being involved in issues that have no interest to them and are clearly beyond their sphere of influence... But given the reach of the Red Wizards and their varied interests, a lot of groups would have reason to interfere, to varying degrees.

It would be a huge opportunity for role-playing, because of that... And for me, at least, far more interesting than Generic Necro-Land #17.



I mean, that very much could be somewhere in the 5e story since we don’t know how Thay went from Tam’s nightmareland to 5e’s return to status quo.



5e Thay isn't back at the status quo. It's still a mostly undead nation, but the difference is that there are factions of living Red Wizards wanting to restore the Zulkirate. Apparently, however, they have reached some kind of agreement with Tam? Maybe? Not sure, the SCAG made it sound like this.
keftiu Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 02:22:37
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, if I've understood the novels correctly (as English is not my native tongue, I may be lost in translation), but it seems Tam is not interested in Aglarond at all. He needs a place where his ritual can be done, but Aglarond don't meet the requirements. Neverwinter does (the large number of casualties during the eruption of Mount Hotenow and the subsequent destruction of the city). Thay also meet those requirements until the ritual was botched by the other Zulkirs, just a year before the starting date of a 4e campaign. I guess this is why Tam just send forces to stop invaders, but never attacks in earnest. He gains nothing conquering Aglarond.



I would assume killing everyone there would generate the death energy for his rite. And he is on the offensive; 4e FRCS establishes he captured a border city, Undummor, that’s being used as a beachheads, and will probably push over the border into Glarondar, too.
Zeromaru X Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 02:02:04
Well, if I've understood the novels correctly (as English is not my native tongue, I may be lost in translation), but it seems Tam is not interested in Aglarond at all. He needs a place where his ritual can be done, but Aglarond don't meet the requirements. Neverwinter does (the large number of casualties during the eruption of Mount Hotenow and the subsequent destruction of the city). Thay also meet those requirements until the ritual was botched by the other Zulkirs, just a year before the starting date of a 4e campaign. I guess this is why Tam just send forces to stop invaders, but never attacks in earnest. He gains nothing conquering Aglarond.
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 01:22:58
Master Zeromaru X,

I agree with your final statement for sure.

It gets very tropey after a while with that kind of Scooby-Do villain approach to things. That's why I've argued in other threads (that you've been on) that Thay would have wrecked Aglarond during the Smellplague, conventionally.

There needs to be some real evil out there. Not like the Emerald Enclave just murdering towns, and hundreds of thousands of people, but...well, actually, that may work just fine. That being said, it would be cool to see a truly, horrifically vile, evil nation get played out to its fullest extent. You know, Darth Vader in a daycare kind of bad...

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.



Oh, sorry. I guess it sounded like if I was criticizing your idea, but I was talking about the canonical Thay. If it's just another magocracy of evulz slavers (that, TBH, there's a LOT of those in the Realms... like 5 or 6 in Faerûn alone), then I prefer it's 4e incarnation. And, honestly, I fail to see the alure of the original canon Thay if it just yet another evil nation of evil, racist/speciesist slavers...

Your idea of the tarches is really good (I've said this in a lot of post now, lol), tho I have a few qualms because it bends to much the canonical stuff.

Zeromaru X Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 01:17:02
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.



Oh, sorry. I guess it sounded like if I was criticizing your idea, but I was talking about the canonical Thay. If it's just another magocracy of evulz slavers (that, TBH, there's a LOT of those in the Realms... like 5 or 6 in Faerûn alone), then I prefer it's 4e incarnation. And, honestly, I fail to see the alure of the original canon Thay if it just yet another evil nation of evil, racist/speciesist slavers...

Your idea of the tarches is really good (I've said this in a lot of post now, lol), tho I have a few qualms because it bends to much the canonical stuff.

As for Tam vs the Eminence, in my Realms Lod is still alive (and I guess I'm going to ignore his canonical death), so for the moment, Tam and Lod are at odds. And as I said, the conflict it useful for my campaign as it allows the players to not feel themselves railroaded to fight against the Thayans.
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 00:41:11
Great Reader sleyvas,

I can totally see an exiled (by force) Szass Tam being both a great pissed off villain to come back and later wreck everyone with which then allows some sort of stabilization, as well as terror that Szass Tam is coming back. He could just as easily find a less resilient nation to overthrow with his army that has no real logistical needs to speak of.

Kind of cool there.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

None, yet. My Realms campaigns are focused in Tymanther and Neverwinter. The latter means Thay is going to be visited by the players at some point (as the Thayans are one of the main evil factions in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). So, I'll be planning something sooner or later.

However, if you want me to choose between generic necroland #17 and generic magocracy of evil slavers #300, I'm going to chose the necroland. At least there the common evil tropes can be justified...



Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.

sleyvas Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 00:30:50
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

None, yet. My Realms campaigns are focused in Tymanther and Neverwinter. The latter means Thay is going to be visited by the players at some point (as the Thayans are one of the main evil factions in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). So, I'll be planning something sooner or later.

However, if you want me to choose between generic necroland #17 and generic magocracy of evil slavers #300, I'm going to chose the necroland. At least there the common evil tropes can be justified...



Just to be clear.. I'm not saying choose between. Tam's undead realm can be anywhere he can kill a bunch of people. What I'm proposing is have both, but just move Tam and restore Thay. Furthermore, I'd say have Tam vying against the restored Thay. Then I'd further have my United Tharchs adding a third spoke in that wheel.

Oh, and rather than have Tam vying against the Eminence, I'd probably have him seeking to take a leadership role amongst them. Granted, there should be some internal issues there.
cpthero2 Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 16:30:55
Master Zeromaru X,

Ahhh, ok. That makes more sense now.

Thanks!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Both of my campaigns take place in 1480 DR, so in the 4e years, but yes, Tymanther is a 4e thing that still exist in 5e.


quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

I can certainly appreciate that.



Sure, as soon as I finish updating my campaign diary, I can share my ideas here (it usually takes time, as I have to translate it Spanish to English, and my English is self-learned and full of grammar fails, lol).

But, so far, in my campaign the Thayans are locked in a war with the Eminence of Araunt, and this is what allows the players to ignore Thay and pursue their own agenda.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eminence_of_Araunt

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
What about an evil group of druids? Huh? Compelling. Even better........generic magocracy of evil slavers who contract out to undead druids who live nearby? haha



I can see the merit of this idea,

Zeromaru X Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 13:25:50
Both of my campaigns take place in 1480 DR, so in the 4e years, but yes, Tymanther is a 4e thing that still exist in 5e.


quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Zeromaru X,

I can certainly appreciate that.



Sure, as soon as I finish updating my campaign diary, I can share my ideas here (it usually takes time, as I have to translate it Spanish to English, and my English is self-learned and full of grammar fails, lol).

But, so far, in my campaign the Thayans are locked in a war with the Eminence of Araunt, and this is what allows the players to ignore Thay and pursue their own agenda.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eminence_of_Araunt

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
What about an evil group of druids? Huh? Compelling. Even better........generic magocracy of evil slavers who contract out to undead druids who live nearby? haha



I can see the merit of this idea,
cpthero2 Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 05:25:37
Master Zeromaru X,

Now, isn't Tymanther 4e, or is it 5e?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

None, yet. My Realms campaigns are focused in Tymanther and Neverwinter. The latter means Thay is going to be visited by the players at some point (as the Thayans are one of the main evil factions in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). So, I'll be planning something sooner or later.

However, if you want me to choose between generic necroland #17 and generic magocracy of evil slavers #300, I'm going to chose the necroland. At least there the common evil tropes can be justified...

keftiu Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 04:10:15
Eberron has great evil druids, if you need.

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