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 Scyllua Darkhope from 1368-1375

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
rangerstranger Posted - 13 Sep 2019 : 19:48:22
So, I am DMing a campaign set in the Dales region. The current month and year are Eleasis 1368 DR. I have a bunch of ideas and modules I want to sorta mesh together but the timeline is going to need some manipulating. So here are a list of items I want to weave together and the years in which they occur in cannon, according to my knowledge of the realms. I would like to know what the scribes here at Candlekeep think about my ideas.

1. The Randal Morn Trilogy. (Fall 1368?) I want to have Scyllua Darkhope appear in this somewhere, before she begins her fall from grace. I've already run the Doom of Daggerdale in a different campaign with some of the players who are also in this campaign. I was thinking of having her come to the Daggerfalls in the aftermath to secure the trade routes across Anauroch or maybe deal with Colderan, who got away. Perhaps the party meets Scyllua along with a Zhentilar Patrol and Randal Morn with some of his freedom riders arguing along the Tethymar Trail south of the Falls, perhaps the same ones that get attacked at the beginning of the Sword of the Dales. I think this makes sense, but feel free to critique. Hopefully the party leaves a good impression on Scyllua, and she could call upon them to help in the Keep before it's destruction. The lands they receive from Lhaeo in Shadowdale may become an issue as I want to run Shadowdale: Scouring the Land to cap off the campaign.

2. I also want the Party to be present in Zhentil Keep during the siege in late 1368 or early 1369. While in the Keep I'd like for them go through the siege and also become good friends with Scyllua during her ascent of the ranks in the Zhentilar and also meet some of the Lords of Zhentil Keep, like Fzoul, Orgauth (before Arbarax), and Desmonda (before Eshaeris). After the destruction I'd like to run them through the Ruins of Zhentil Keep adventure where Iyachtu Xvim ascends to an intermediate or lesser deity (I'm not sure the name of this adventure.) Also after the destruction I'd like to have them interact with Orgauth when he repents and promises to Scyllua to help turn Zhentil keep around, especially now that the Zhentarim have left the city. I'd like to see how they deal with Arbarax and Eshaesis after taking the places of Orgauth and Desmonda. This could maybe link into the next step of the campaign.

3. Either from Orgauth or Desmonda, or maybe from Scyllua herself the characters learn about some documents in Scardale that indicate Scyllua's father to be Lashan, and in theory, the rightful ruler of Scardale. This has the characters going off to Scardale to find said documents and then, with Scyllua, have them approach the rulers of the other dales, the Zhentilar, the purple dragons present in Scardale to have her put in place as the city's new leader and end the anarchy. Despite her being a Paladin of Tyr, all but the Zhentilar are fearful of another "Lashan" conquering the dales and reject the documents as fakes. Especially as some of the leaders of the dales are informed by Khelben that Orgauth is infact Arbarax, Fzoul would learn this before or after this event and the Harper schism would happen at this point, some characters may join the harpers by this point so this could be interesting. Scyllua vehemently denies the fact she has been fooled by Arbarax and this would be the catalyst of her falling from grace. She becomes resentful of the Dales and their leaders and leaves for Zhentil Keep to plot her revenge. This doubt leaves her as easy prey for "Orgauth", and he assists in completing her fall from grace. Depending on the characters action, she will complete her fall and join the Zhentarrim or retire from the Zhentilar settle in some small town either in the dales or the Moonsea.

4. Cormyr: Tearing the Weave. Fall of 1374. This date would have to be brought forward I think but not before 1372 when Tilverton is destroyed. I can probably have Tunaster appear in daggerfalls in part 1. He could have been their investigating the Dream Fever and also know a bit about these heroes. Perhaps have them build a personal connection. This would provide an easy hook for this adventure when the time comes.

5. Shadowdale: Scouring the Land. 1375. Probably pushed forward as well. Depending on the events of part 3. Scyllua would either fight along with the Zhentarrim as is cannon or if she left the Zhentilar she could be coaxed out of retirement by the party and redeem herself.

My big issue is with the documents found in Scardale is suppose to happen in 1372 after Scyllua has clearly fallen, according to the 3E FRCS. I'd like to rewrite it as the catalyst for her fall, and give the party the chance to talk her off the ledge so to speak.

Also the details surrounding Fzoul discovering Orgauth's true identity evades me. I don't understand why Khelben told Fzoul and I don't understand Khelben's motivations to make the deal with Fzoul and the Zhentarim but I'd like to use that to try event steer Scyllua toward the Zhentarim and Iyachtu Xvim. Maybe Bane after his return, if I have that happen.

Yeah sounds like I have a ton of stuff planned and the last thing I want to do is railroad the characters into "MY" adventure. So I'll just have things go as they did in cannon if the party/campaign goes another direction. They haven't been too difficult to subtly steer in one direction or another but sometimes things go way off the rails and that's fine.

Anyway I'd like hear everyone's opinions of my ideas. What things should I add in to make things a little more nuanced? Am I just way off on certain events? What could I add in or take out?

Thanks
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Icelander Posted - 22 Oct 2019 : 20:20:58
Does anyone have a rough idea of where Scyllua Darkhope was, month by month, tenday by tenday, in the years 1368-1375 DR?

There are mentions in numerous novels and sourcebooks. Can we get any kind of unified timeline, establishing rough geographic position at certain times and what kind of resources she commanded at that time?

My PCs have from 1371-1373 DR run into knights in her service in Calaunt, Scardale, Yhaunn and Ravens Bluff, as well as heard all sorts of rumours, primarily that she is the reightful heir of Scardale. Her knights seem willing to provide the first duty of a liege lord, protection.

I'd like to establish how much time she has to spend entangled in Zhentarim-wide schemes with dubious success rates and how much time and resources she can free up for her legitimate bid for rulership of at least one Dale.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 27 Sep 2019 : 21:47:43
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I'm fairly certain, however, that Abraxis is really Abraxas, who's a different demon Prince with no ties to Grazzt.



You are correct. Sorry, I was thinking Thraxxia (sp), whom I had read somewhere was a union of Grazzt and a monk female and transcended into a female Balor.
LordofBones Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 02:52:52
Novels are independent of game stats. That's how pit fiend killer, Scyllua Dark hope has a Str of 13 and an attack roll that will never hit a typical pit fiend AC.
rangerstranger Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 22:39:28
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

I assume you saw that Lashan appears in Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land, page 57, in the form of a nycaloth.

Could make for an interesting plot twist for Scyllua to confront her dad, if you want her to have a redemption arc.

--Eric



Lashan the Nycaloth almost destroyed our entire party during that module. Our DM had to implement divine intervention from Erevan Ilesere to win the battle. I'm not sure that Scyllua is a high enough level to destroy her father in one on one combat.

Our party consisted of Curudin Ahmaquissar: Trickster-Touched Moon elf Rogue 5/ Cleric 5/ Mischiefmaker 5/ Shadowtrick Priest 5 of Erevan Ilesere.

Lairlefain Starleaf: Copper elf Rogue 5/ Swashbuckler 10/ Shadowblade 5.

Terrindill Shaelarra: Gold elf Rogue 10/ Shadowdancer 10.

Pheyloo Audark: Wild elf Rogue 5/ Assassin 10/ Quietknife 5.

Nym Nightsong: Star elf Rogue 5/ Sorcerer 5/ Shadowmage 10.

All 20th level PC's. In the end of the module we had our epic battle against Her Nycaloth father and herself, and our DM had to send an Avatar of Erevan to even up the fight. I do understand that the module is not a "High-level" adventure, but our DM tweaked all the stats in the game to bring everything up to a 15th thru 20th level module.

Even at the normal level adventure, I'm not sure Scyulla could defeat her father in single combat for redemption. unless her redemption was to die at her fathers hands to save the party. A basic, standard Nycaloth is powerful to begin with. Now add class levels to his profile and Ka-pow... you have a CR 20 Nycaloth minimum. It's that kind of horror that helped Myth Drannor fall before the elven crusade. Even the legendary elven warrior Starbrow was slain in combat fighting a Nycaloth during the fall of that city.

Just saying that not every demon or devil or Nycaloth is standard black and white stats. Most of the more prominent ones have class levels in something. A Nycaloth is a Nycaloth... but then add 10 levels of fighter or sorcerer to a particular prominent Nycaloth and you have a denizen of the lower planes that Scyllua cannot hope to defeat herself.

It would make a great redemption arc if she helped the PC's to slay her father, or die doing so. But she couldn't slay him herself unless the DM was sleeping. lol.



Scyllua also defeat Arbarax, a Pit Fiend, CR 20. I assume she had help from Fzoul and getting rid of Arbarax and bringing Scyllua under his wing was all a part of the plan. But she defeated a put fiend none the less.
AJA Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 14:57:37
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
(although there may have been a preceding Dragon article, AJA!!!)

Dragon Magazine #91, "Treasure Trove," p.60, under the "Demonbane" entry.
"Forty-seven fantastic magic items for the AD&D game, from the imaginations of DRAGON Magazine readers!"

(Also has three Ed articles, including one of his "Nine Hells" pieces. Good issue! )

ericlboyd Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 14:37:24
For the curious, the original reference to Errtu is in the AD&D DMG (1e), page 198, in the appendix that lists all the monsters.

There you will find a list of the "top 6" Type VI demons. The first was "Balor", which became the name of the subrace in AD&D2 and beyond. The other five include Alzoll, Errtu, Ndulu, Ter-Soth, and Wendonai.

Errtu first appeared in a Realmsian context in The Crystal Shard, IIRC, which was written during the AD&D1 era. Ndulu first appeared in a Realmsian context in FR4 - The Magister (although there may have been a preceding Dragon article, AJA!!!). I think it was me who added Wendonai in Lost Empires of Faerun, pages 54-55. I don't think Alzoll or Ter-Soth have been mentioned in a Realmsian context yet, but I might be forgetting. Another Balor who has been mentioned in the Realms is Grintharke.

In my mind, Errtu, Ndulu, and Wendonai are examples of elite balors. In 1e and 2e, that means they have a balor's stats. In a 3e/3.5e context, if detailing them, I would probably advance them in HD (to the max if it fit the mechanics-requirements, less if I wanted lower level PCs to be able to battle them) or give them levels in an appropriate prestige class (e.g. fiend of corruption 6 for Wendonai). I would not, however, consider them demon lords or princes. (They were not mentioned in the list of demon lords and princes given in the AD&D Monster Manual II (1e), page 35).

I would add that my theory is that the Abyss is filled with infinite demons, demons acquire specific "associations" with specific regions of specific Prime Material Worlds. So, Ndulu is "associated" with The North and Ndulu is associated with Narfell and its heirs. Wendonai is a bit of an outlier, and has moved around Faerun from an initial association with the Ilythiiri to drow in general (Dark Court Slaughter) to Narfell.

I should note that Soneillion, from Champions of Ruin, is noted on the list of demon lords (not princes) in AD&D Monster Manual II (1e), page 35. In her case though, I left it ambiguous (moreso in my original draft) as to whether she was THE Soneillion or not.

Just my two cents.

--Eric

LordofBones Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 10:50:58
Charon is an altraloth. To be more specific, he was a marraneoloth that became an altraloth.

Nobody mentioned balor genders either. The fact that they have titles doesn't make them actual Abyssal Lords, either. The only balor that happens to also be an Abyssal Lord is Kardum.

I've never heard of the others, but I'm dubious of a guardian of the gates of Avernus being a tanar'ri, much less a balor, considering what happened the last time balors tried to meddle in Baator. I'm fairly certain, however, that Abraxis is really Abraxas, who's a different demon Prince with no ties to Grazzt.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 10:44:19
What about Terezerez, Lord of The blackened Marsh?

Or Symphelthest, Queen of the burning bogs?

What about Abraxis... Daughter of Grazzt... Princess of Sorrows. Queen of despondency. Lady of Ice, Lady of death!

Cifinfrond... General of The Blood Wars?

Wraxaldorm... Keeper of the River Styx?

Charon... Lord of the river Styx?

Durmexal Durgan.... Lieutenant to the gates of Avernus?

All Balors... Each and every single one. Some male, some female. Ohh wait! did you think Balors were only males? lol

Sindafel Sardarion... an elf that was banished to the abyss during the Crown Wars. Transformed into a Balor to Rule over the realm of Grazzt as a general in war.

Sharlapinquill... Yochlol Queen of The Demonweb Pits. Huntress of Devils and Mistress of Loth.

Have none of you read this? All Balors... some are male, some are female.
Icelander Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 09:16:19
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Errtu has always been a typical balor. He was 13HD back in 2e when balors were 13 HD. He's not especially unique among his kind; the Lords of Woe also rule a layer, and they're just 20HD nalfeshnee.



Yeah cool.. so I guess all Balors have somewhere to sit then. NO!!

It specifically says that Errtu sits on his own throne in his Mushroom hell of the abyss. Remember Wulfgar pining at his feet as Loth came to collect him? It's wicked clear that Errtu is a Demon Lord of the abyss. 1 of 100,000 demon lords. The layers of the abyss are infinite as I hope you know. The Hells are 9 layers and much more put together. The Dukes of Hell will suffer no chaos.

If you think Errtu is a standard Balor then I wish you well. I guess that means Malkizid is a standard Solar with demonic attributes. lol. Too damn funny.

I bet my rogue elf slays your Necromancer before he can even say the word "bone". Ohh... what's that? Too late, you're already dead. Killed by a 3d6 roll Sneak attack! lol.


Standard balors are lords among demons, by virtue of belonging to the highest class of demon, but that doesn't make them 'Demon Lords' in D&D terminology. All balors are potentially capable (and most actually do) of ruling over lesser demons, sitting on thrones that tower over mortals and a variety of other demonic behaviour, but their high positions in the demonic hierarchy doesn't mean individual balors all have powers beyond the standard listed for their kind.

No more than human fighters, aristocrats or members of other classes gain special powers over and above other characters of their levels if they have noble titles.
LordofBones Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 08:52:19
Errtu has never been anything more than a balor in any edition of the game, nor has he demonstrated anything that makes him more special than a typical balor. The Lords of Woe have more metaphysical oomph than he does and are also 20 HD nalfeshnee.

He's so unremarkable that his layer isn't even mentioned in Hellbound, Faces of Evil or FC.

Unless you have an official source that states he's a demon Lord in the actual sense of having a portfolio and being a unique fiend, there's nothing that sets him apart from Glyphimor, except Glyphimor had the balls to flip off a goddess even while knowing that Orcus, his boss, was dead.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 08:33:51
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Errtu has always been a typical balor. He was 13HD back in 2e when balors were 13 HD. He's not especially unique among his kind; the Lords of Woe also rule a layer, and they're just 20HD nalfeshnee.



Yeah cool.. so I guess all Balors have somewhere to sit then. NO!!

It specifically says that Errtu sits on his own throne in his Mushroom hell of the abyss. Remember Wulfgar pining at his feet as Loth came to collect him? It's wicked clear that Errtu is a Demon Lord of the abyss. 1 of 100,000 demon lords. The layers of the abyss are infinite as I hope you know. The Hells are 9 layers and much more put together. The Dukes of Hell will suffer no chaos.

If you think Errtu is a standard Balor then I wish you well. I guess that means Malkizid is a standard Solar with demonic attributes. lol. Too damn funny.

I bet my rogue elf slays your Necromancer before he can even say the word "bone". Ohh... what's that? Too late, you're already dead. Killed by a 3d6 roll Sneak attack! lol.
LordofBones Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 07:32:25
Errtu has always been a typical balor. He was 13HD back in 2e when balors were 13 HD. He's not especially unique among his kind; the Lords of Woe also rule a layer, and they're just 20HD nalfeshnee.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 07:24:31
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Novels and histories are independent of statistics. Power of plot, essentially.

And also because progression of gameplay editions, like Drizzt against Errtu.



Here we go... Drizzt vs. Errtu... Drizzt is stated as a 18th level NPC, so CR 19 due to him being a drow. Errtu is NOT a standard Balor... He owns his own throne in the abyss. That is very much known. Most Balors work for a demon lord or prince or princess of the abyss. But Errtu himself is possibly a Demon lord. Errtu is no simple Balor.

That being said... Drizzt vs. Errtu. By the current year in FR I assume that Drizzt is now a 20+ level NPC.(add your own classes as you see fit) Errtu is and has always been a Demon Lord, a vassal of Loth or some such insanity. So Errtu is not your standard Balor demon. He sits on his own throne in the abyss. Not typical. Not standard.

Let's just say Drizzt is a Drow Ranger 10/ Dervish 10/ Divine Champion of mielikki 5. So that's a CR 26. Errtu must be a CR 25. IDK, maybe more as he is a demon lord. When it comes to a 1 on 1 battle, I would say that Errtu wins due to SLA and such. Drizzt has no spells to speak, although it's retarded that a ranger of his age and experience has no spells. Drizzt should be at minimum a 10th level ranger, commanding spells for the appropriate level. So dumb.

If you build your own Drizzt, then yes, he may have a chance against Errtu. As the current Drizzt is stated and then add 10 levels of experience, no. Errtu would wear him like a belt.

My personal opinion. It's very clear that Errtu is no simple Balor. But Drizzt is no simple Drow. I would say Errtu is a Demon Lord as he owns his own throne in the abyss. Drizzt cannot even cast a simple ranger spell. RAS needs to expand on that if his drow ranger is ever going to go anywhere. Otherwise just call him a drow fighter.

So Errtu wins in the end due to his innate SLA's and sheer power, not even giving him class levels in anything. Imagine Errtu as a 10th level sorcerer on top of what he already has. LIke I said... RAS needs to give Drizzt some Ranger spells at least. I mean, you can't keep calling him an amazing ranger if he can't even cast a single 1st level ranger spell. lol.
LordofBones Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 05:58:03
Novels and histories are independent of statistics. Power of plot, essentially.

And also because progression of gameplay editions, like Drizzt against Errtu.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 05:45:18
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

11 HD with 22 bonus hp, not CR 33.




Well, that's ludicrous... An 11HD fiend (22 added HP is paltry) slaying elves of 20+HD is absurd. Not to mention a city full of them. 3 Nycaloths at 11HD +22 HP and an army of orcs, goblins, ogres, Bugbears, and humanoid shamans would NEVER destroy a city of elves encompassed by a living Mythal that prevents just such a thing. That hoard would have to be 100,000,000 strong to even breach the boundaries of the city proper, let alone slay all their most powerful warriors, wizards, clerics and druids. Not to mention the epic Scouts, Sorcerers, Bladesingers, Duskblades, Bards and Spell-Singers. Then you have the lesser artists, such as stone masons, gem artificers, cloth weavers, road builders and Chefs.

I find it ludicrous that an army led by 3 Nycaloths could so destroy a city of such powerful magic. I've had this same discussion with several friends pertaining to this very matter. We all agree that the size of the army doesn't matter at all, as the Mythal takes care of that. It lies within how powerful the 3 Nycaloths were.

11HD+22HP would be slain by the Coronal himself.

11HD+22HP would be slain by the Archmage of Cormanthyr.

11HD+22HP would be slain by the master at arms.

That's all 3 Nycaloths.

Please explain to me how the city fell, besides a good plot line for future adventures?

Hell... My above mentioned wild elf rogue 5/ assassin 10/ Quietknife 10 would clean the floor with 1 Nycaloth at those stats, let alone the Coronal of the kingdom. Also consider that the Coronal was fighting with THE RULERS BLADE!
LordofBones Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 01:04:09
11 HD with 22 bonus hp, not CR 33.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 22:08:07
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire


So what levels were the 3 Nycaloths that destroyed Myth Drannor?
A standard Nycaloth (Yugoloth, Greater) is HD11+22
They also had an army, however.

quote:
Even Fflar... a legendary elven warrior died at their claws. By 2ED standards Fflar was a fighter of no less than 20th level.

Wrong. He was so non-legendary that no survivor knew who he is beyond the first name, until he got resurrected.
We know stats of his boss (deceased by that time): Arms-Major Kelvhan Olortynnal (NG gold em F16). Kelvhan got there via a field promotion, and was groomed for this post as his teacher - and he was a master strategist, not duelist, of course. Still, he was fit for it.

To have some benchmarks for warriors' notability vs. levels, let's look at the elves' stats in Cormanthyr and The Fall of Myth Drannor:
F25/W19 - 1: the Coronal.
F24 - 0.
F23 - 1: a clan Patriarch.
R22 - 1, co-founder of the Harpers. FMD:+1: senior officer.
F22 - 0.
R21 - 2: a clan Elder, a clan Patriarch.
F21 - 1: a clan Heir. FMD:+1: a clan Heir
R20 - 0
F20 - 0
R19 - 1: a clan Patriarch.
F19 - 2: a clan Elder, a clan Patriarch.
R18 - 1: a clan Patriarch.
F18 - 0
R17 - 0
F17 - 1: commander of a military outpost with reputation of "the finest archer who ever lived". FMD:+1: senior officer.
F16/W14 - FMD:+1: senior officer in magic corps, chief of black ops corps.
F16 - 4: 2 clan Elders, commander of the dragonriders and commander of the "mundane" army.
F15/W15 - 2: commander of the Moonshadows "special forces", clan Elder. FMD:+1: (bladesinger) Spell-Major.
R15 - 1: a clan Heir and Arms-Captain (also, second-in-command of "mundane" forces).
F15 - 1: a clan Heir.
You get the picture.



A standard Nycaloth (Yugoloth, Greater) is HD11+22.

So a CR of 33 maximum? That makes Malkizid look like an Arch-Duke of gerbers baby food. lol.

It also mentions that the 3 Nycaloths were NOT standard... they were advanced for their kind.

An ancient elven city with a functioning mythal would not fall to 3 standard Nycaloths and a hoard of bugbears, orcs, ogres, and more unless there was something more involved. From the list you describe above, there were more than enough elves with sufficient power to combat the evil.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 21:54:00
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Richard Baker noted that Fflar is around 16th to 20th level. Malkizid is CR 26 with 20th level cleric casting.



16th to 20th is a bit of a gap, but not too huge. Enough to die or live certainly.

Malkizid is CR 26 with 20th level cleric casting. He would wipe the floor with my CR 26 Wild elf Rogue 5/ Assassin 10/ Quietknife 10 (even with the Shadow-walker template). Even if you're not hack-n-slash, or sling-n-slay types, My wild elf would be hard pressed to kill the Anti-Solor/ Arch-Duke, whatever he is.
LordofBones Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 00:12:28
Richard Baker noted that Fflar is around 16th to 20th level. Malkizid is CR 26 with 20th level cleric casting.
TBeholder Posted - 21 Sep 2019 : 21:50:46
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire


So what levels were the 3 Nycaloths that destroyed Myth Drannor?
A standard Nycaloth (Yugoloth, Greater) is HD11+22
They also had an army, however.

quote:
Even Fflar... a legendary elven warrior died at their claws. By 2ED standards Fflar was a fighter of no less than 20th level.

Wrong. He was so non-legendary that no survivor knew who he is beyond the first name, until he got resurrected.
We know stats of his boss (deceased by that time): Arms-Major Kelvhan Olortynnal (NG gold em F16). Kelvhan got there via a field promotion, and was groomed for this post as his teacher - and he was a master strategist, not duelist, of course. Still, he was fit for it.

To have some benchmarks for warriors' notability vs. levels, let's look at the elves' stats in Cormanthyr and The Fall of Myth Drannor:
F25/W19 - 1: the Coronal.
F24 - 0.
F23 - 1: a clan Patriarch.
R22 - 1, co-founder of the Harpers. FMD:+1: senior officer.
F22 - 0.
R21 - 2: a clan Elder, a clan Patriarch.
F21 - 1: a clan Heir. FMD:+1: a clan Heir
R20 - 0
F20 - 0
R19 - 1: a clan Patriarch.
F19 - 2: a clan Elder, a clan Patriarch.
R18 - 1: a clan Patriarch.
F18 - 0
R17 - 0
F17 - 1: commander of a military outpost with reputation of "the finest archer who ever lived". FMD:+1: senior officer.
F16/W14 - FMD:+1: senior officer in magic corps, chief of black ops corps.
F16 - 4: 2 clan Elders, commander of the dragonriders and commander of the "mundane" army.
F15/W15 - 2: commander of the Moonshadows "special forces", clan Elder. FMD:+1: (bladesinger) Spell-Major.
R15 - 1: a clan Heir and Arms-Captain (also, second-in-command of "mundane" forces).
F15 - 1: a clan Heir.
You get the picture.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 21 Sep 2019 : 06:07:09
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

After playing the 3 module campaign I have always wondered why no living clones of Manshoon weren't present.

quote:
I mean, the Vampire Manshoon from Westgate alone could wipe the floor with Fzoul in my opinion. a 20th level arcane caster, plus a Vampire Lord to boot?? Wow. pretty powerful indeed. That's actually more powerful than the REAL Manshoon, lol.


The real wizard Giovanni is 25th level.

quote:
You're not going to slay a Nycaloth at 5th level, or even at 10th level. Fzoul himself would be hard pressed to slay a Nycaloth without any class levels involved. Maybe whatever deal he made with "The Blackstaff" had something to do with it all.


A nycaloth is CR 10. 10th level parties are absolutely capable of killing it.

Fzoul without class levels would be kind of dead, seeing as how a humanoid is defined by its class levels. He's also fully capable of trivially killing a nycaloth, given that he's a 17th level cleric with access to 9th level spells.

[quote] Hadrhune alone could possibly kill Fzoul in this campaign the way it is stated. But even Hadrhune would find it difficult to slay a Nycaloth on his own.


Haddy, being a 20th level wizard, is capable of trivially killing lots of nycaloths. Even if you scaled up nycaloths to their baatezu and tanar'ri counterparts, they'd still be CR 14, at most.

You need the big three (pit fiend, balor, theoretical CR 20 ultroloth) to deal with 20th level parties. Of course, they'd have to be intelligently played.



Absolutely correct on all accounts. So what levels were the 3 Nycaloths that destroyed Myth Drannor? Even Fflar... a legendary elven warrior died at their claws. By 2ED standards Fflar was a fighter of no less than 20th level. In 3.5ed Fflar was resurrected as a Fighter 20/ Champion of Corellon 10. Yet he would be hard pressed to defeat Malkazid, the unholy Solar. Which in game terms would be a Arch-Duke of Hell I assume. Total guess there.
LordofBones Posted - 18 Sep 2019 : 06:03:10
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

After playing the 3 module campaign I have always wondered why no living clones of Manshoon weren't present.

quote:
I mean, the Vampire Manshoon from Westgate alone could wipe the floor with Fzoul in my opinion. a 20th level arcane caster, plus a Vampire Lord to boot?? Wow. pretty powerful indeed. That's actually more powerful than the REAL Manshoon, lol.


The real wizard Giovanni is 25th level.

quote:
You're not going to slay a Nycaloth at 5th level, or even at 10th level. Fzoul himself would be hard pressed to slay a Nycaloth without any class levels involved. Maybe whatever deal he made with "The Blackstaff" had something to do with it all.


A nycaloth is CR 10. 10th level parties are absolutely capable of killing it.

Fzoul without class levels would be kind of dead, seeing as how a humanoid is defined by its class levels. He's also fully capable of trivially killing a nycaloth, given that he's a 17th level cleric with access to 9th level spells.

[quote] Hadrhune alone could possibly kill Fzoul in this campaign the way it is stated. But even Hadrhune would find it difficult to slay a Nycaloth on his own.


Haddy, being a 20th level wizard, is capable of trivially killing lots of nycaloths. Even if you scaled up nycaloths to their baatezu and tanar'ri counterparts, they'd still be CR 14, at most.

You need the big three (pit fiend, balor, theoretical CR 20 ultroloth) to deal with 20th level parties. Of course, they'd have to be intelligently played.
rangerstranger Posted - 17 Sep 2019 : 15:49:53
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

After playing the 3 module campaign I have always wondered why no living clones of Manshoon weren't present.

I mean, the Vampire Manshoon from Westgate alone could wipe the floor with Fzoul in my opinion. a 20th level arcane caster, plus a Vampire Lord to boot?? Wow. pretty powerful indeed. That's actually more powerful than the REAL Manshoon, lol. So I never understood how Fzoul continued to rule the Zhents uncontested. Maybe the Manshoon wars made the surviving clones realize that they had better things to do? lol.

You're not going to slay a Nycaloth at 5th level, or even at 10th level. Fzoul himself would be hard pressed to slay a Nycaloth without any class levels involved. Maybe whatever deal he made with "The Blackstaff" had something to do with it all.

Hadrhune alone could possibly kill Fzoul in this campaign the way it is stated. But even Hadrhune would find it difficult to slay a Nycaloth on his own.



Very rarely do battles come down to one on one duels. Fzoul had help in slaying manshoon the first time and there is no reason to believe he wasn't ready for one of Manshoon's clones to come back to claim the Leadership of the Zhentarim for it's own. I think Fzoul even had one of the Manshoon Clones on working inside the Zhentarim. So while it is interesting that this clone did not show up in the Tearing of the Weave, Scouring of the Land or The empire of Shade, I also see why no other Manshoon clones showed themselves. It was far to dangerous of an event and way too many powerful players were at work. The Zhentarim, the Churches of Shar and Bane, the Drow, the Shades, Elminster and the other chosen of Midnight and the Harpers. Plus the PCs. These guys always seem to come out of nowhere.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 21:01:18
After playing the 3 module campaign I have always wondered why no living clones of Manshoon weren't present.

I mean, the Vampire Manshoon from Westgate alone could wipe the floor with Fzoul in my opinion. a 20th level arcane caster, plus a Vampire Lord to boot?? Wow. pretty powerful indeed. That's actually more powerful than the REAL Manshoon, lol. So I never understood how Fzoul continued to rule the Zhents uncontested. Maybe the Manshoon wars made the surviving clones realize that they had better things to do? lol.

You're not going to slay a Nycaloth at 5th level, or even at 10th level. Fzoul himself would be hard pressed to slay a Nycaloth without any class levels involved. Maybe whatever deal he made with "The Blackstaff" had something to do with it all.

Hadrhune alone could possibly kill Fzoul in this campaign the way it is stated. But even Hadrhune would find it difficult to slay a Nycaloth on his own.
rangerstranger Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 20:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


Kind of makes you wonder what is in elminster genetics that makes two of his relatives so horribly evil.



Damn Elminster, such a dead-beat great great great grandfather.

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