Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Gods of the creator races

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert Email Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]
Rolling Eyes [8|] Confused [?!:] Help [?:] King [3|:]
Laughing [:OD] What [W] Oooohh [:H] Down [:E]

  Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
    

T O P I C    R E V I E W
Zeromaru X Posted - 26 May 2019 : 20:50:00
Hey, guys, I'm wondering which gods existed back then in the era of the Creator Races. I know about the World Serpent and its sarrukh incarnations, but what gods worshiped the batrachi, the aearee or the fey?

I believe, the ape-like humans didn't had gods back then, so gods of Netherese origins such as Shar, Selűne and the others shouldn't have existed in that age. Or at least, not in the form and with the names the Netherese later gave them.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 20:31:05
Master Rupert,

A fine, fine day to "see" you again! :)

I can certainly appreciate your perspective. However, in light of our rather protracted and I will say, thoroughly appreciated debates, I'll say I refer you back to my previous argumentation for my position. :)

Best regards as always good master of the 'Keep!




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master TBeholder,

I appreciate the thoughtful response.

Here is the dogma of Silvanus:

quote:
Silvanus saw and balanced all, meting out wild water and drought, fire and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest.



Even if someone disregards the ""cleansing" of a startup community in Chondalwood in 1362, which was actually performed by the Emerald Enclave" (Vilhon Reach, p.17), it is hard to ignore that they are so violent that canon says, "That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that
swept through the Vilhon." (Vilhon Reach, p.17).

Bear in mind [as I've made a solid case for in another post] that the plagues that are being discussed, I argue, killed between 713k and 2.8 million people in the Vilhon Reach between all recorded plague. The Emerald Enclave is being compared to that kind of violence and death. That is in fact legendary, and I believe goes against:

quote:
Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Kill only when needful,...


I mean....wow, that must have been a lot of needfulness, because they've really done a lot of killin'!

I honestly just think that the Emerald Enclave, especially those members that would have had any affiliation with Eldath, would have cut ties and let the world know just how unhinged that group is.



Gods, not this again.

They're compared to the ruthlessness, not the body count. There is zero proof that they've killed anyone beyond that single referenced community, and we have no data on what happened there. When I see that druids cleansed something, what I think it means is that there was some sort of corruption present, something that was an active threat -- and the druids acted to contain it. Not a thing of "oh, we don't like people here" but instead something to do with fiendish or arcane corruption.

Wooly Rupert Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 11:55:16
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master TBeholder,

I appreciate the thoughtful response.

Here is the dogma of Silvanus:

quote:
Silvanus saw and balanced all, meting out wild water and drought, fire and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest.



Even if someone disregards the ""cleansing" of a startup community in Chondalwood in 1362, which was actually performed by the Emerald Enclave" (Vilhon Reach, p.17), it is hard to ignore that they are so violent that canon says, "That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that
swept through the Vilhon." (Vilhon Reach, p.17).

Bear in mind [as I've made a solid case for in another post] that the plagues that are being discussed, I argue, killed between 713k and 2.8 million people in the Vilhon Reach between all recorded plague. The Emerald Enclave is being compared to that kind of violence and death. That is in fact legendary, and I believe goes against:

quote:
Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Kill only when needful,...


I mean....wow, that must have been a lot of needfulness, because they've really done a lot of killin'!

I honestly just think that the Emerald Enclave, especially those members that would have had any affiliation with Eldath, would have cut ties and let the world know just how unhinged that group is.



Gods, not this again.

They're compared to the ruthlessness, not the body count. There is zero proof that they've killed anyone beyond that single referenced community, and we have no data on what happened there. When I see that druids cleansed something, what I think it means is that there was some sort of corruption present, something that was an active threat -- and the druids acted to contain it. Not a thing of "oh, we don't like people here" but instead something to do with fiendish or arcane corruption.
cpthero2 Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 21:30:25
Master TBeholder,

I appreciate the thoughtful response.

Here is the dogma of Silvanus:

quote:
Silvanus saw and balanced all, meting out wild water and drought, fire and ice, life and death. Hold your distance and take in the total situation, rather than latching on to the popular idea of what is best. All is in cycle, deftly and beautifully balanced. It is the duty of the devout to see this cycle and the sacred Balance as clearly as possible. Make others see the Balance and work against those that would disturb it. Watch, anticipate, and quietly manipulate. Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Fight against the felling of forests, banish disease wherever you find it, defend the trees, and plant new flora wherever possible. Seek out, serve, and befriend the dryads and learn their names. Kill only when needful, destroy fire and its employers, and beware orcs and others who bring axes into the forest.



Even if someone disregards the ""cleansing" of a startup community in Chondalwood in 1362, which was actually performed by the Emerald Enclave" (Vilhon Reach, p.17), it is hard to ignore that they are so violent that canon says, "That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that
swept through the Vilhon." (Vilhon Reach, p.17).

Bear in mind [as I've made a solid case for in another post] that the plagues that are being discussed, I argue, killed between 713k and 2.8 million people in the Vilhon Reach between all recorded plague. The Emerald Enclave is being compared to that kind of violence and death. That is in fact legendary, and I believe goes against:

quote:
Resort to violence and open confrontation only when pressured by time or hostile action. Kill only when needful,...


I mean....wow, that must have been a lot of needfulness, because they've really done a lot of killin'!

I honestly just think that the Emerald Enclave, especially those members that would have had any affiliation with Eldath, would have cut ties and let the world know just how unhinged that group is.

Thoughts?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Why would a god continue to bless said followers that go do stuff antiethical to teachings they push, i.e. Emerald Enclave?

A good example to dissect.
Emerald Enclave's approach isn't antithetical, or even contradictory to the dogma. They just discard or re-prioritize some conventions outside it, and disagree with other worshippers.
That's different. Sure, they have no problem killing followers of their gods or allies thereof, and may be a little too hostile to the humanity...
And some parts of their deities' churches are clearly is in disagreement with them to some degree.
But then, Sylvanus isn't Torm. As far as he is concerned, some cooperation is an advantage, but a bit of competition and natural selection is a good thing too. That's just not what he is about.
EE ways may look unpalatable ethically, in that they abuse a gift of Mystra against her followers.
May be bad politically, in that they antagonize lots of outsiders and it shall eventually backfire once some of those who see them as traitors and general sonovabiches will have significant power and free time.
Sure. But is this something that must bother all followers of Sylvanus? His teaching is more "how to tend the trees" than "being a good neighbour for dummies", let alone "how to make friends and influence people".
So, why not?

Same deal with other gods: they usually care little about things outside their portfolio.
We know at least some Chaotic gods not bothered by seeing their followers violently disagree even about their names (Tempus/Tempos).
Same deal with Lolth/Lloth, but she also let every noble House in Guallidurth start its own sect.
And the Seldarine generally encourage sticking together had worshippers on both sides of Crown Wars for millennia. There were apostates, but relatively few, and allowed to run with it very far before being crushed.
Thus vast amount of heterodoxy is possible for the followers as long as they by and large stick with the important points, before their gods are bothered enough to comment.


TBeholder Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 20:41:54
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Why would a god continue to bless said followers that go do stuff antiethical to teachings they push, i.e. Emerald Enclave?

A good example to dissect.
Emerald Enclave's approach isn't antithetical, or even contradictory to the dogma. They just discard or re-prioritize some conventions outside it, and disagree with other worshippers.
That's different. Sure, they have no problem killing followers of their gods or allies thereof, and may be a little too hostile to the humanity...
And some parts of their deities' churches are clearly is in disagreement with them to some degree.
But then, Sylvanus isn't Torm. As far as he is concerned, some cooperation is an advantage, but a bit of competition and natural selection is a good thing too. That's just not what he is about.
EE ways may look unpalatable ethically, in that they abuse a gift of Mystra against her followers.
May be bad politically, in that they antagonize lots of outsiders and it shall eventually backfire once some of those who see them as traitors and general sonovabiches will have significant power and free time.
Sure. But is this something that must bother all followers of Sylvanus? His teaching is more "how to tend the trees" than "being a good neighbour for dummies", let alone "how to make friends and influence people".
So, why not?

Same deal with other gods: they usually care little about things outside their portfolio.
We know at least some Chaotic gods not bothered by seeing their followers violently disagree even about their names (Tempus/Tempos).
Same deal with Lolth/Lloth, but she also let every noble House in Guallidurth start its own sect.
And the Seldarine generally encourage sticking together had worshippers on both sides of Crown Wars for millennia. There were apostates, but relatively few, and allowed to run with it very far before being crushed.
Thus vast amount of heterodoxy is possible for the followers as long as they by and large stick with the important points, before their gods are bothered enough to comment.
cpthero2 Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 07:13:09
Great Reader Ayrik,

Oh man, you hit the nail on the head with that schism comment.

That is my beef with the gods that showed up at the Dancing Place in 721 DR. Many Chosen, etc. have gone off the rails, and many from each of the faith have done things that have effectively split the church by their different values, ethics, etc.

Why would a god continue to bless said followers that go do stuff antiethical to teachings they push, i.e. Emerald Enclave?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

But there is an important difference between RW and FR ...

A deity in the Realms grants followers and priests magic. Spells, granted powers, miracles. Direct manifestations with very obvious and real results. Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra might be different individuals assuming the divine portfolio of magic ... but there wasn't any ambiguous uncertainty each time a new goddess displaced an old goddess ... those who worshipped the "real" goddess got spells while those who worshipped the "dead" goddess did not get spells.

It can be more complex in the Realms when a deity continues to grant spells to all faithful on all sides after a schism of faith divides the church. Or when a deity (like Leira, Cyric, Mask, Shar) deliberately misleads worshippers with false/impersonated faiths.
But for the most part it seems fairly straightforward. In the Realms there's almost always a "true" deity, the (non)existence of the deity can almost always be proven (or disproven), the validity (or falseness) of the faith can almost always be confirmed (or exposed).

CorellonsDevout Posted - 11 Oct 2019 : 21:38:39
Rillifane is back again in 5e though, isn't he (I thought the majority of the Seldarine remained in tact in 4e, if some lessened in power), but maybe I am misremembering. I will have to check the SCAG deity listing, but Rillifane should have returned in 5e.

EDIT: yup, he is indeed listed in the SCAG.
Baltas Posted - 11 Oct 2019 : 21:34:10
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Regarding Relkath and Silvanus, the intimations are that Silvanus is a relative newcomer to the realms, whereas Relkath is relatively old. Also, the intimations are that he was "taken over" by Rillifane Ralathil and has no ties to Silvanus (that being from demihuman deities where it has Rillifane taking over several deities like Magnar the Bear, Relkath, and the spirit beasts of things like coyote). I personally like the idea that he's still alive in other pantheons, but not Faerun or the elven pantheon, and thus Rillifane is using his name there. That being said, whether he dates back to the age of the creator races, would easily be in question (that's a long long time ago).



quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

That then begs the question of how much of one deity another can absorb. For example, the Seldarine absorbing the Yuir gods. Are these Yuir gods still active elsewhere? If they are, this would suggest that all deities are, to varying degrees, multispheric.



Well, it is implied Rillifane Ralathil at least absorbing at least the Faeruian aspect of Relkath, as this absorption was mentioned to have altered Rillifane predisposition and personalty, with him becoming more primal again - even directly stating Rillifane Ralathil and Relkath merged - and Magnar the Bear actually merged with the "Primeval Bear" spirit that served Rillifane, and now serves him, along the Eagle, and the Raven.
Magnar the Bear and Relkath also returned in the 4E era, when Rillifane Ralathil was noted to disappeared, suggested Relkath unfused from Rillifane (or fully over dominance in their fusion), and Magnar the Bear became independent.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 11 Oct 2019 : 00:09:16
That then begs the question of how much of one deity another can absorb. For example, the Seldarine absorbing the Yuir gods. Are these Yuir gods still active elsewhere? If they are, this would suggest that all deities are, to varying degrees, multispheric.
sleyvas Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 23:49:57
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

With Silvanus, his origins are quite mysterious, and he is very old, although in the Fey Pantheon, Relkath of the Infinite Branches would probably be worshiped by Fey including Eladrin, although possible Relkath and Silvanus were still one "World Tree" deity during the Ages of Thunder, or both split from the World Tree deity, like Jazirian, Merrshaulk, Ahriman, Shekinester, Ramenos, and possibly Io/Asgorath split from World Serpent.

With Herne and Malar, I can see they were originally the same being - with Araushnee/Lolth even noting that they are extremely similar, when Malar slain Herne, and even then looked very similar, and were noted of similar nature, in Evermeet: Isle of Elves:
quote:
Malar, the Great Hunter, stood over the rapidly fading body of a creature much like himself. Well over twelve feet tall he was, with fur like that of a black bear covering a powerful, thick-muscled body shaped roughly like that of an orcish warrior. Malar lacked prominent fangs to seize and rend his opponents; in fact, he had no snout at all, merely a flesh-draped cavity in the center of his face that served as both nose and mouth. He did not seem to suffer from this lack. From his massive head sprouted a rack of antlers, each point dagger-sharp. The curving claws on his hands were each fully the size of Araushnee's hand. Yet victory had not come easily to Malar: His huge chest rose and fell like waves on a frenzied sea, and the breath that rasped through his oral cavity was harsh and labored.
Araushnee took her daughter's bow from her shoulder and fitted to it one of Eilistraee's enchanted arrows. She sighted down her target and readied the weapon. Although she fully intended to make a deal with the god, she knew the value of negotiating from a position of apparent strength.
"Hail, Beastlord, Master of the Hunt!" Araushnee called out to him.
Malar whirled toward the musical sound of an elven voice and dropped into battle stance: knees bent and muscles bunched in preparation for a quick spring, arms spread in a parody of an embrace, claws hooked into terrible rending weapons. His eyes narrowed into malevolent slits as he regarded the armed goddess.
"What do you here, elf?" he growled out in a thunderous rumble. "This place is none of yours!"
"No, it is yours by right of conquest," the goddess agreed, nodding toward the fallen god. By now, little remained of the bestial avatar but a dim gray outline. "That was Herne, was it not? I have caught glimpses of him before, on other worlds. A pale copy of Malar, to my thinking."


With this, it did seem to me like a battle of aspects.



Regarding Relkath and Silvanus, the intimations are that Silvanus is a relative newcomer to the realms, whereas Relkath is relatively old. Also, the intimations are that he was "taken over" by Rillifane Ralathil and has no ties to Silvanus (that being from demihuman deities where it has Rillifane taking over several deities like Magnar the Bear, Relkath, and the spirit beasts of things like coyote). I personally like the idea that he's still alive in other pantheons, but not Faerun or the elven pantheon, and thus Rillifane is using his name there. That being said, whether he dates back to the age of the creator races, would easily be in question (that's a long long time ago).
CorellonsDevout Posted - 10 Oct 2019 : 21:37:43
Since the multiverse is, well, multiple, I can imagine any number of deities existing long before there was a Toril. Some may have inhabited other spheres before coming to the Realms, and others may have hung around, then chosen Realmspace as their "home", and these are the "native" deities (though some were probably already multispheric).
sleyvas Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 05:01:06
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

There's a whole lot of avian-themed deities in Races of the Wild for the raptoran pantheon. Seems like that could be repurposed to the Realms as a pantheon for the aearee.




Good point. Looking at them, let's do a quick compare against the great spirits to see if any of them are so similar as to be the same thing (and I only say that because the Aearee were roughly in that area and/or the continents near to that).

Tuilviel Glithien - CG - protector goddess of the raptorans, night birds, stars, moon.…. except for alignment differences (LN instead of CG), this could correspond to the Great Spirit Moon Mother/Yellow Woman/Tih'kuyi who is both a huntress and protector goddess

Duthila - N - hunting and food storage.... no direct correlation to any specific great spirit

Kithin - N - male god of winter, sleep, and death …. no direct correlation... there is a great spirit of winter named Shakak, who is also tied to Magpies, but he's LE. Given that Shakak has ties to birds, I'd say keep him. Maybe even he killed Kithin within realmspace, which could explain animosity with summer (Miochin)…. the two great spirits don't like each other.

Lliendil - CN - male weather god …. this one very much could be Sho#146;tokunungwa who is a similar weather god (and one with oddly a "horn" sticking out of his head.... maybe a beak?), but that great spirit is true neutral

Nilthina - N - male god of summer …. this one very much could be Miochin the god of summer (who is NG) and who has ties to Eagles….

Ventila - N - goddess of spring, fertility, growth, love... no direct correlation to any one great spirit as these portfolios would be split to several (the spring goddess Morityema, as well as Corn Mother, etc... would control these roles)

So, out of the 6 there's 3 of them that would roughly fit amongst the already created Great Spirits if we wanted to say that these are Aearee "gods" who are still around.
Wrigley Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 02:18:53
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

There's a whole lot of avian-themed deities in Races of the Wild for the raptoran pantheon. Seems like that could be repurposed to the Realms as a pantheon for the aearee.


Thank you for pointing that out. I have looked at them and they do not look like racial deities to me at all. They are too broadly written so they ovelap main Faeruninan deities. On the other hand they may be proto-deities of which later ones developed or simply ceased to exist as they are no longer known...
ericlboyd Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 22:23:34
There's a whole lot of avian-themed deities in Races of the Wild for the raptoran pantheon. Seems like that could be repurposed to the Realms as a pantheon for the aearee.
Wrigley Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 12:28:50
Thank you for the quote but for me, gods do not act like that. They are not bigger adventurers on the Planes and there is no better weapon than deity's will.
As for battle of aspects I do not see a need for this internal conflict within the deity to manifest outside and split into two beings who battle (unless this story was inside Malar's mind - that would be cool).
For Io/Asgorath splitting from World Serpent - I do not think they have anything in common. Dragons are not serpents in my realms - they are actually closer to Fey.
Baltas Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 09:30:10
With Silvanus, his origins are quite mysterious, and he is very old, although in the Fey Pantheon, Relkath of the Infinite Branches would probably be worshiped by Fey including Eladrin, although possible Relkath and Silvanus were still one "World Tree" deity during the Ages of Thunder, or both split from the World Tree deity, like Jazirian, Merrshaulk, Ahriman, Shekinester, Ramenos, and possibly Io/Asgorath split from World Serpent.

With Herne and Malar, I can see they were originally the same being - with Araushnee/Lolth even noting that they are extremely similar, when Malar slain Herne, and even then looked very similar, and were noted of similar nature, in Evermeet: Isle of Elves:
quote:
Malar, the Great Hunter, stood over the rapidly fading body of a creature much like himself. Well over twelve feet tall he was, with fur like that of a black bear covering a powerful, thick-muscled body shaped roughly like that of an orcish warrior. Malar lacked prominent fangs to seize and rend his opponents; in fact, he had no snout at all, merely a flesh-draped cavity in the center of his face that served as both nose and mouth. He did not seem to suffer from this lack. From his massive head sprouted a rack of antlers, each point dagger-sharp. The curving claws on his hands were each fully the size of Araushnee's hand. Yet victory had not come easily to Malar: His huge chest rose and fell like waves on a frenzied sea, and the breath that rasped through his oral cavity was harsh and labored.
Araushnee took her daughter's bow from her shoulder and fitted to it one of Eilistraee's enchanted arrows. She sighted down her target and readied the weapon. Although she fully intended to make a deal with the god, she knew the value of negotiating from a position of apparent strength.
"Hail, Beastlord, Master of the Hunt!" Araushnee called out to him.
Malar whirled toward the musical sound of an elven voice and dropped into battle stance: knees bent and muscles bunched in preparation for a quick spring, arms spread in a parody of an embrace, claws hooked into terrible rending weapons. His eyes narrowed into malevolent slits as he regarded the armed goddess.
"What do you here, elf?" he growled out in a thunderous rumble. "This place is none of yours!"
"No, it is yours by right of conquest," the goddess agreed, nodding toward the fallen god. By now, little remained of the bestial avatar but a dim gray outline. "That was Herne, was it not? I have caught glimpses of him before, on other worlds. A pale copy of Malar, to my thinking."


With this, it did seem to me like a battle of aspects.
Wrigley Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 17:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I don't think that Mielikki or Silvanus were present in the Days of Thunder. These are clearly human deities, and humanity wasn't that developed at the time. And I believe they started as interlopers from other worlds as well.


I can agree on Mielikki but hardly on Silvanus - he is mainly a god of any plant creature on Toril so humans are interested only because they interact with his domain.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I think that while many members of the Seelie Court might not had been yet "born", or present on Toril, but I think Titania might be.

She is Auril's/The Queen of Air and Darkness' sister, and could come to Toril with her, possibly even both being ascended Primal Elves (as 5E calls the Fey Creator species, and group from which LeShay broke of). It's also hard to well when Auril was corrupted by the Black Diamond, so it's possible her and Titania had a good relationship, at least in part of the Age of Thunder.

With Mielikki, I'm not sure if she wasalready present in the Age of Thunder - it is possible she merged with an older fey deity named Khalreshaar/Khelliara (ie Mieliki's elven and Rashemi aspects/aliases), who I think also could be a Yuir deity.


I haven't found any notion about Titania in FR except Demihuman dieties. Auril is clearly local and I only made connection to her older name. Same with Malar and Herne who I believe is a older name and aspect of the same diety (Herne was important in hunter/gatherer society and he later give in to his bestial aspect as he lost worshipers).
Similar to Herne is a story of World Serpent - he lost interest in serpents and focused more on his aspect of corruption becoming Moander to humans (his symbol is literal biting snake misinterpreted as hand with fangs).

As for primal elves - I have adopted Eladrin as ancient form of elves before they came to Toril (they fit to existing subraces perfectly, see Planescape Apendix II, p.28) and call them Eldarin in connection to S'eldarin (higher or noble eldarin). Older Fey gods live in Faerie/Feywild as did S'eldarin before they left for Arvandor.
Zeromaru X Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 16:00:47
I don't think that Mielikki or Silvanus were present in the Days of Thunder. These are clearly human deities, and humanity wasn't that developed at the time. And I believe they started as interlopers from other worlds as well.
Baltas Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 13:54:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

Question was about time of creator races and in that time elves were not on Toril yet. They might possibly be in Arvandor/Faerie but on Toril there were probably only older fey creatures like treanants, satyrs, pixies, unicorns, ... and the gods who came with them.



I think that while many members of the Seelie Court might not had been yet "born", or present on Toril, but I think Titania might be.

She is Auril's/The Queen of Air and Darkness' sister, and could come to Toril with her, possibly even both being ascended Primal Elves (as 5E calls the Fey Creator species, and group from which LeShay broke of). It's also hard to well when Auril was corrupted by the Black Diamond, so it's possible her and Titania had a good relationship, at least in part of the Age of Thunder.

With Mielikki, I'm not sure if she wasalready present in the Age of Thunder - it is possible she merged with an older fey deity named Khalreshaar/Khelliara (ie Mieliki's elven and Rashemi aspects/aliases), who I think also could be a Yuir deity.
Wrigley Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 21:17:59
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
(...)
Fey - Silvanus, Mielikki, Eldath, Lurue, (Malar/Herne), Queen of Air and Darkness (Auril), possibly elven gods
(...)


Not the Seelie Court?


Question was about time of creator races and in that time elves were not on Toril yet. They might possibly be in Arvandor/Faerie but on Toril there were probably only older fey creatures like treanants, satyrs, pixies, unicorns, ... and the gods who came with them.
Barastir Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 11:46:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
(...)
Fey - Silvanus, Mielikki, Eldath, Lurue, (Malar/Herne), Queen of Air and Darkness (Auril), possibly elven gods
(...)


Not the Seelie Court?
Wrigley Posted - 20 Sep 2019 : 00:34:15
Batrachi - Ramenos, Blipdoolpoolp, Sekolah, Umberlee, Great Mother, Ghaunadaur, Eadro, Ilesere

Aaocra - Syranita, Remnis, Stillsong

Fey - Silvanus, Mielikki, Eldath, Lurue, (Malar/Herne), Queen of Air and Darkness (Auril), possibly elven gods

Giants - Annam, (Talos), Othea, Hiatea, Stronmaus, Skoraeus, ...

Sarrukh - detailed in book, except for their leader World Serpent.
My take is that he is now a Ahriman/Moander hiding in hell and Asmodeus is the first fallen angel who created Nine hells being corrupted by him. (read carefully Moander's description in older books and you might understand my point).

Other - Amaunator, Jergal, Lathander, Chauntea, Mystra, Shar, Selune, Kossuth, Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Tyche, Garagos, Oghma

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Thanks, Eric. Didn't knew about Syranita.

Are there other sources about her besides Monster Mythology?


end of this book is very good source but you have to read carefully. It is in the details...
Baltas Posted - 01 Jun 2019 : 18:52:12
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, I guess that stuff of Nerull being brother of Pelor may be from 3.x, as in 4e he is an ascended mortal as well (he killed an earlier deity of death and stole his godhood).

As for the Bane stuff, much of it is part of a goblin myth (ie. Kord and him being brothers), but you have to take into account that Dawn War Bane was designed to be different to FR Bane, as per his article in Dragon 372. It was with 5e and its need to Planescape it all, that they fused DW Bane with his FR counterpart.

As for Lurue, it makes sense, and I've using that alternative as well. Although, perhaps she had a different name during the Days of Thunder.



I apologize for the confusion, with Bane, Kord, and Nerull and mostly the Raven Queen, I mean the 4E versions of them. I just wanted how different versions of Gods, especilly the 4E, could have different origins, to explain the different origins of the Raven Queen and Wee Jas. again though, many of these could be just legends, and those could become essentially truth via power of belief, making the situation even more confusing.

This is in part, as Wee Jas, has some fairly interesting lore with the original Mystra and Midnight. From On Hallowed Ground:
quote:
The old Mystra of Toril was an ally of Wee Jas, but the new Mystra has managed to fully alienate her. That might be part of the reason Wee Jas has taken a turn for the worse - her only good friend in the cosmos passed on, and was replaced by a berk who claimed the name but didn't pursue the same vision.


Because of that, identifying Wee Jas with Raven Queen, gives her more attachment to Toril via this - as it stated the original Mystra and Wee Jas were very close (ie Wee Jas only friend in the multiverse), and gives some ground for conflict with Midnight.

But about Nerull and Pelor - yes it seems they might have been only made brothers in 3E, or late 2E, but I must research it more.

Especially that Gary Gygax, in his Gord novels revealed Nerull in reality is the Oinoloth/Oinodaemon Infestix, so this might be his plan for Nerull, ie him being a Daemon-God (Infestix), and Oerth! Nerull being one of his aspects/guises.:
http://greyhawkonline.com/gord/outer.html

For the name Lurue used, it could be Yathaghera, at least among LeShay.
Zeromaru X Posted - 01 Jun 2019 : 15:34:26
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas


She is also Lawful Neutral in 5E, like Wee Jas, further cementing the connection (and yes, the Raven Queen has different origins than Wee Jas, but so did Nerull, who was like her a former mortal, and not Pelor's brother. As did other gods, like Bane being born a god, or Kord being the son of the winter goddess Khala, and persumably Zehir, while Oerth Kord was the son of Phaulkon and Syrul etc.)


Well, I guess that stuff of Nerull being brother of Pelor may be from 3.x, as in 4e he is an ascended mortal as well (he killed an earlier deity of death and stole his godhood).

As for the Bane stuff, much of it is part of a goblin myth (ie. Kord and him being brothers), but you have to take into account that Dawn War Bane was designed to be different to FR Bane, as per his article in Dragon 372. It was with 5e and its need to Planescape it all, that they fused DW Bane with his FR counterpart.

As for Lurue, it makes sense, and I've using that alternative as well. Although, perhaps she had a different name during the Days of Thunder.
Baltas Posted - 01 Jun 2019 : 12:58:52
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, the Raven Queen is canon in the Realms as of 5e, and following her new 5e lore, she may have been there by the time of the aearee.

I don't recall the tale in Monster Mythology, but if it involves Pazuzu, it doesn't contradicts what was said in 4e.



With the Raven Queen', it's interesting it was somewhat confirmed she was inspired in part by Greyhawk's Wee Jas, when disusing by who deities of the 4E core pantheon were inspired - from page 11:
quote:
The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon's Hel and Greyhawk's Wee Jas


She is also Lawful Neutral in 5E, like Wee Jas, further cementing the connection (and yes, the Raven Queen has different origins than Wee Jas, but so did Nerull, who was like her a former mortal, and not Pelor's brother. As did other gods, like Bane being born a god, or Kord being the son of the winter goddess Khala, and persumably Zehir, while Oerth Kord was the son of Phaulkon and Syrul etc.)

quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye


I would agree this is how it is in the RW, and to some extent the FR, but the death and reconstitution of Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Whoever she really is now, Lathander/Amaunator and Jergal playing tag with various mortals all point to constant change. I mean, Mystra has always been in the FR, but I'm quite sure the Sarruhk didn't give homage to the same Face that wizards do now.

Sam



With Mystryl, Mystra and Midnight though, Ed stated the Mystra and Mystryl are part of Midnight now. And that because of that, Midnight feels uncomfortable around Helm, as she remembers the original's Mysta's love of him, but also how he killed her. And that she fears the primal being, that Mystryl is, and with both fears her personality will be lost to Mystra or Mystryl.

After the Sundering, while Midnight is the mainly the Mystra who returned, she has now has the wisdom of the original Mystra, according to Ed.

So with Mystra, she kinda is is the same, but with a new personality being dominant in the fusion. It always reminded me of the situation with Daniel being the new Dream, after Morpheus died, with him being different, yet the same being, and that in a fashion, it was a "change of perspective".

With the Creator races though, I think the goddess of Magic they worshiped, was Lurue though. Ed himself designed Lurue to be the embodiment of magic in his capaign, but TSR decided they need a more human goddess.:
quote:
Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.

The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now.


But seeing the Creator races are inhuman (except cavemen), this would be a perfect fit.
ericlboyd Posted - 30 May 2019 : 22:14:19
I think it's more complicated than that. Even in the Realms, divine support or lack thereof of a specific individual can be very hard to determine.

Look at the religion chapter in Power of Faerun and the discussion of heresies.

--Eric

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

But there is an important difference between RW and FR ...

A deity in the Realms grants followers and priests magic. Spells, granted powers, miracles. Direct manifestations with very obvious and real results. Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra might be different individuals assuming the divine portfolio of magic ... but there wasn't any ambiguous uncertainty each time a new goddess displaced an old goddess ... those who worshipped the "real" goddess got spells while those who worshipped the "dead" goddess did not get spells.

It can be more complex in the Realms when a deity continues to grant spells to all faithful on all sides after a schism of faith divides the church. Or when a deity (like Leira, Cyric, Mask, Shar) deliberately misleads worshippers with false/impersonated faiths.
But for the most part it seems fairly straightforward. In the Realms there's almost always a "true" deity, the (non)existence of the deity can almost always be proven (or disproven), the validity (or falseness) of the faith can almost always be confirmed (or exposed).

Ayrik Posted - 30 May 2019 : 21:21:54
But there is an important difference between RW and FR ...

A deity in the Realms grants followers and priests magic. Spells, granted powers, miracles. Direct manifestations with very obvious and real results. Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra might be different individuals assuming the divine portfolio of magic ... but there wasn't any ambiguous uncertainty each time a new goddess displaced an old goddess ... those who worshipped the "real" goddess got spells while those who worshipped the "dead" goddess did not get spells.

It can be more complex in the Realms when a deity continues to grant spells to all faithful on all sides after a schism of faith divides the church. Or when a deity (like Leira, Cyric, Mask, Shar) deliberately misleads worshippers with false/impersonated faiths.
But for the most part it seems fairly straightforward. In the Realms there's almost always a "true" deity, the (non)existence of the deity can almost always be proven (or disproven), the validity (or falseness) of the faith can almost always be confirmed (or exposed).
BrennonGoldeye Posted - 30 May 2019 : 18:55:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

"Heresy: adherence to religious opinion contrary to church dogma."

Seems to me that claiming an ancient deity is gone and supplanted by some new deity would be the ultimate form of "opinion contrary to church dogma". Centuries of conflicts between Western faiths (along with all their own internal divisions, denominations, and schisms) have been caused by exactly this: each faith attests that only their version of the "one" deity exists and any other versions must therefore be somehow misguided, wrong, or false.

Of course "heretic" and "infidel" and "apostate" and "pagan" each has a distinct meaning which tacitly implies some sort of opposition or rejection of a dominant church/religion. They're less applicable when that religion simply lacks any real presence - in which case words like "unbeliever" or "cult" or "fanatic" tend to be used.



I would agree this is how it is in the RW, and to some extent the FR, but the death and reconstitution of Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Whoever she really is now, Lathander/Amaunator and Jergal playing tag with various mortals all point to constant change. I mean, Mystra has always been in the FR, but I'm quite sure the Sarruhk didn't give homage to the same Face that wizards do now.

Sam
Ayrik Posted - 30 May 2019 : 18:21:56
"Heresy: adherence to religious opinion contrary to church dogma."

Seems to me that claiming an ancient deity is gone and supplanted by some new deity would be the ultimate form of "opinion contrary to church dogma". Centuries of conflicts between Western faiths (along with all their own internal divisions, denominations, and schisms) have been caused by exactly this: each faith attests that only their version of the "one" deity exists and any other versions must therefore be somehow misguided, wrong, or false.

Of course "heretic" and "infidel" and "apostate" and "pagan" each has a distinct meaning which tacitly implies some sort of opposition or rejection of a dominant church/religion. They're less applicable when that religion simply lacks any real presence - in which case words like "unbeliever" or "cult" or "fanatic" tend to be used.
BrennonGoldeye Posted - 30 May 2019 : 18:12:19
Hello all!

I have actually DM'd a campaign where the "bad guys" were 2 priests that had been trapped in one of those ever present stasis vaults in the Realms. They were both from Days of Thunder, since there were no Gods of the Sun or Moon or even Darkness they were both Heretics, one of the Darkmoon and the other of the Three Faced Sun. Both Lawful Neutral in a very "Follow the law or die" sorta way. Any ideas about these heresies being based on the Ancient forms of these Deities?

Sam
Zeromaru X Posted - 30 May 2019 : 18:00:58
Well, the Raven Queen is canon in the Realms as of 5e, and following her new 5e lore, she may have been there by the time of the aearee.

I don't recall the tale in Monster Mythology, but if it involves Pazuzu, it doesn't contradicts what was said in 4e.

Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000