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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Gary Dallison Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 20:07:20
I'm looking for all things Moonshae. I've read the Moonshae book, the Halls of the High King adventure, Treasure Hunt adventure, Dragon 405, Dungeon 196, Dragon 362.

Are there any other Moonshae mentions anywhere in any other sourcebooks or magazines? Even if its only half relevant to the Moonshae such as Grond Peaksmasher, is he featured in any articles.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of concrete information about the area. I have an idea for an alternate take but would prefer it if there were a bit more info to go on.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Gary Dallison Posted - 21 Jul 2019 : 21:02:22
Settled on the Church of the Great Mother for the name of the branch of chaunteas church in the moonshae isles (the name is chosen for a moniker used to refer to Chauntea that also could refer to the Earthmother)

Detailing a number of npcs found in the novels now.

Keren i've renamed to Keren pen Donnell (pen meaning son of). Noted that in Hall of Heroes he is referred to as a Harper, so i've made him a Harper Friend (not an agent) that passes news onto Bran Skorlsun and his agents that are hunting false and renegade harpers.
Gary Dallison Posted - 20 Jul 2019 : 09:21:19
Given that there is no explanation of the prophet that I could find I'm thinking perhaps he is a druid gone mad, one that perhaps delved too deeply into combining with his quasi divine patron (and discovered she didn't like him much).

In darkwalker all the druids were petrified except Genna (I'm aware the heart of kazgoroth brought her back but I'm not necessarily going that route). Perhaps the petrified druids could be a side effect of trying to call upon the power of the earthmother and awaken all the children.
The old stone wood in Oman isle gives me enough of an indication that this has happened before. Perhaps during 201 DR, the first druids tried to awaken the children then and were petrified as a result except for one who is now the prophet of moonshae (might be a way for me to keep the first druid alive and have another way for players to learn about the true history of the moonshae isles).

Genna Moonsinger could become another prophet, driven mad by her commune with the earthmother. That way I can get rid of her like the books, but still keep the heart of kazgoroth in play as a way to bring kazgoroth back, and ignore the whole darkwell nonsense with bhaal, instead it can be the Ravager form of Kazgoroth (from -2000 DR).
Gary Dallison Posted - 19 Jul 2019 : 08:33:01
Ahh it feels good to get back to creating rather than reading novels, I was very unimpressed with the part where Deirdre was casting a spell to allow the new gods access to the moonshae isles, such meta gaming codswallop.

I've renamed corlyth (my version of caomhin) to corwyss (a hound from darkwaller) as it sounds closer to corwell and still fits as the bane of a Fey lord and moonwalk guardian.
Low hill is now situated on the southern side of corwyss Tor (the hill where caer corwell rests), while the town is on the northern side.

Erian is a pseudo lycanthropy, waiting for a shape shifter to touch him and awaken his own shape shifting abilities (inherited from a survivor of 201 DR who was injured by kazgoroth).

Friar Nolan is now Frewwar Nolan (Frewwar meaning brother and that comes from his chauntean title of Watchful Brother). He is a spy of sorts sent to report on events to Reginald Carrathal and persuade the kendricks of his beneficent rule (and to eventually accept him as high king) as well as to spread chauntea worship to corwell.
Gary Dallison Posted - 18 Jul 2019 : 12:35:54
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Still no explanation as to who or what the prophet is, I doubt he will feature in the druid queen novel. All I have on him is that he is clearly insane, every time he is killed he returns a short time later as himself and thus far appears only on alaron



You’ll find out when the twist is revealed.

— George Krashos



Well i've read all the Moonshae novels now and still no clue as to who/what the prophet is/was. Did i miss something important?
Couldnt really find a twist either other than Grond Peaksmasher siding with the Earthmother but no big revelation as to the prophet.

Gary Dallison Posted - 18 Jul 2019 : 07:44:12
Ugh, now I have to finish the book properly with 130 pages to go. Thus far druid queen has less lore in it than the darkwalker books.
George Krashos Posted - 17 Jul 2019 : 22:50:05
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Still no explanation as to who or what the prophet is, I doubt he will feature in the druid queen novel. All I have on him is that he is clearly insane, every time he is killed he returns a short time later as himself and thus far appears only on alaron



You’ll find out when the twist is revealed.

— George Krashos
Gary Dallison Posted - 17 Jul 2019 : 08:30:03
Still no explanation as to who or what the prophet is, I doubt he will feature in the druid queen novel. All I have on him is that he is clearly insane, every time he is killed he returns a short time later as himself and thus far appears only on alaron
Gary Dallison Posted - 16 Jul 2019 : 19:23:55
Onto the last of the moonshae novels (finally). The coral kingdom was not really about the moonshae isles at all and contained very little lore, I'm half expecting druid queen to be the same.

The author of both trilogies really loved his scrying magic items, cyndres mirror, the deep glass, and the mirror of scrying, I will have to find a way to link them together and perhaps link them to sinioth, who I can turn into a major moonshaes villain who has been around for a lot longer than the novel appearance.

Looking back I find that Gotha was most underused for a awesomely powerful dracolich, he didn't appear much and achieved even less and succumbed to the perma death of novel dracoliches which is meant to be incredibly difficult for such creatures.

Gary Dallison Posted - 11 Jul 2019 : 21:05:17
So the llewyrr were stranded on the Moonshae Isles by a great storm as they tried to reach Evermeet.

I'm thinking that the llewyrr along with illefarni elves stole the Vyshaan fleet (the vyshaan where about to set sail to find Evermeet) and set sail. In revenge the Vyshaan called down a huge storm to sink the fleet.

Now reading the Coral Kingdom it talks about cyclones that smash ships trying to sail there. What if the cyclones are still part of the "Eternal Storm" (i'm trying to think up a suitable name for such a powerful ritual) and the elves of Evermeet just learned how to direct them so that elves can sail safely while others are annihilated (after all some Vyshaan elves now dwell on Evermeet so they probably shared some secrets of the storm).

Gary Dallison Posted - 11 Jul 2019 : 11:47:01
So the coral kingdom also worship talos, necessary for the plot of the story i guess, but problematic from a lore point of view.

Also when sinioth (as a squid) and the king of kressilacc meet with the king of the coral kingdom the scrags and the sahuagin are described as cousin, implying a kindred relation between the two species, meaning that these scrags are not necessarily the same scrags as elsewhere but merely look a bit like sea trolls.

So why would two disparate nations of undersea creatures worship talos, abandoning their own gods in favour of human ones (humans they would have very limited contact with).

My initial feelings are that Talos is a god of the northmen, brought here by them around -2000 DR and the coral kingdom enslaved a number of them and were exposed to the worship of talos in a similar way that the sahuagin were exposed to Bhaal.

Need to research Talos' first mention in faerun history (not confusing Kozah or Bhaelros with Talos as i count them as separate religions subsumed by the church of Talos at a later date), to see if he first sprang up along the sword coast and if it is before or after the northmen arrive.

Gary Dallison Posted - 10 Jul 2019 : 12:00:17
Got to the end of the Prophet of Moonshae.

Still no idea who the prophet is or what he is.

Still no idea who Malawar / Coss-Axell-Sinioth is or what he is. At the end he transformed into a lump of green ichor with podlike limbs, given his possession of powerful magic i'm tempted to make him some kind of twisted sharn (an end stage transformation).

The Earthmother comes back to life after a large amount of magic was dumped into the Moonwell, so i must make sure that magic can be absorbed by the moonwells as well as being donated by those attuned to the moonwells.

Lots of magic items to link to the ffolk and the northmen. Angus Blackstone's dark bladed axe seems like a family relic and potentially potent magic item of the northmen. I think i might make the blackstones be of part northmen origin, from Vlan and the line of Aeroth Silverhelm.

Got a horn carved from an ice elephant in the savage north presumably which was brought to the moonshaes by the illuskans perhaps. I can use it to explain the horns on the helms of the gnarhelm warriors (vikings never had horns on their helms) as only people of gnarhelm can hear the sounds so i'm thinking the horns pick up the resonance frequencies of the horn.

Gnarhelm lodge has a sea dragon head on its wall, perhaps the spawn of leviathan (from elder evils).

Gary Dallison Posted - 09 Jul 2019 : 08:48:13
Sinioth is going to be the storm knight in the moonshae, tempting young nobles to rebel against the establishment and using bandits to sow chaos in the kingdoms.

I figure he needn't be the real or the only storm knight, he is merely using the name as a cover.
Gary Dallison Posted - 08 Jul 2019 : 20:54:05
So Newt appeared to predict Alicia journeying to the barrow of Cymrych Hugh (6 years early, but still incredibly accurate) and nobody even raises an eyebrow or asks him to explain this incredible feat.

Then the heroes enter the barrow and again find items that will surely prove to be exactly what they require on their coming adventure.

I'm of course going to twist this to be the work of the Heralds of the High King, it means that Newt is one of the heralds and is steering potential candidates for High King towards the legacies of Cymrych Hugh and on missions to save the Moonshae Isles and restore the High Kingdom.

One line that did catch my eye was when Newt said Cymrych Hugh was King of the fey creatures as well. I'm not entirely sure what to do with that.

Fey creatures would never swear allegiance to a human on another plane of existence that they had never met, nor would they maintain this allegiance over a thousand years of service (they are too inconstant).
So perhaps Cymrych Hugh used some of the faeree folk in his war with Kazgoroth, perhaps due to his alliance with the elves (it strikes me that the fey might aid the elves), perhaps he was given an item or sigil that the fey were bound to aid the wearer of. Does silver hold any significance to fey creatures, the bracers that Alicia wears could be fashioned into a celtic knot and be faeree made (perhaps once gifted by LeShay to the llewyrr and then later gifted to Cymrych Hugh).
Gary Dallison Posted - 05 Jul 2019 : 22:35:36
So the cult of tales was performing a ritual across the moonshae that didn't cause the 5 years of storms and bad winters (according to sinioth), but for my purposes it suits that the cultists did cause the storm.

This isn't the first time a decade of bad winters and storms has struck the sword coast or the moonshae isles, I'm thinking some powerful magic would be required to do it (netherio or vyshaan perhaps I have a thought about the vyshaan causing a great storm to slay the illefarni elves sailing to ever meet so perhaps it's related).

Does that mean that every few centuries a band of nutter cultists (probably talos or umberlee cultists) are holed up across the sword coast working together on a great ritual to cause humongous changes to weather patterns.
The changes aren't continuous, there are a few days gap occasionally, which says it me whenever the cultists have a break the storm ceases. Perhaps it needs a triangulation of three groups of casters to cause a storm between them (meaning the vyshaan had a spy/high mage among the illefarni elves fleeing to evermeet).

Gary Dallison Posted - 04 Jul 2019 : 11:19:46
So Prophet of Moonshae, Coss-Axell-Sinioth, no idea who or what he is, i doubt i will get any answers and it doesnt really matter. However, the novel implies that the cult of Talos has been growing in Callidyrr and throughout the Moonshaes for centuries.

Strangely and yet again this growth is mirrored in the sahuagin nation of Kressilacc. Its too much of a coincidence to have a number of surface religions appear in both the above and below sea nations of the Moonshae Isles. There must be a link, i could use the Deepglass and Cymbre's mirror (i'm intending to make them linked and part of a set), but that would imply the cultists of all religions are present in the government of Callidyrr for many centuries (unlikely).

So i'm thinking perhaps that these sahuagin take prisoners quite regularly (and dont just eat them) and so have a much greater exposure to surface world influences than other sahuagin nations. the Kraken Society is operating in the Sea of Swords so perhaps they have a relationship with Kressilacc to capture ships and their crew for information.
Talos' religion in Kressilacc would have to be given another cool name (hopefully George is lurking and has a suggestion).





Next up is the golem that Sinioth manufactures. I find it unlikely that even with all that gold and iron, one man could create an iron golem by himself (especially since i dont run the realms as high magic but as high fantasy). I'm wondering perhaps if he didnt use the magical left overs from a number of other powerful items, forging them into a gigantic metal suit that he animated.
The armour could be from the firbolg (Grond's armour perhaps), the weapons could be ancient dwarven or illuskan in nature. The helmet i'm thinking should be the Gnarled Helm of a legendary warrior that became the symbol of the nation of Gnarhelm.
Gary Dallison Posted - 04 Jul 2019 : 10:20:26
For the Fey, anything that is humanoid and not monstrous or bestial is from this primal elfin group (terrible naming, I'm sticking with drine for now).

Those with satyr like form or korred or centaur or anything animal are unrelated, same for the more monstrous fey (guardian trolls - they seem like a good candidate for twisted material plane creatures). Then there are the faery like creatures which are also a separate group.

Not really looked at the archfey in any detail so I don't know how many are primal selfish in form.
Gary Dallison Posted - 04 Jul 2019 : 10:15:26
For the carrathal name I figured that a name change is a major upset for a royal line. By no longer being a cymrych it likely played a major part in them losing the fealty of the other ffolk kingdoms and effectively ending the high kingdom.

So I'm assuming such a change would not be taken lightly. My decisions was that High King Tanner may have had children but upon his death a bloody dynastic struggle began with the loss of the sword and the last symbol of the legacy of cymrych hugh as well as the threat posed by the northmen.

Out of this dynastic struggle I'm assuming there were a few murders, a few minor battles and a lot of dead relatives.
That left the carrathal, a bastard son of high king tanner, who may have been in tethyr with his mother, he arrived with a number of supporters from tethyr (who he awarded nobility to after his success in becoming king).

Thus began the carrathal line and the beginning of tethyrian dominance in callidyrr.
Baltas Posted - 03 Jul 2019 : 14:58:10
Well, I personally would say the Kendrick line existed, but possibly under another name, or branched out from the previously mentioned families

The Carrathal line did technically exist for a longer time, just named Cymrych, as the other families also named themselves such, before changing their names spelling and pronunciation.

Although one could have just the Kendrick line as fairly minor line of Cymrych Hugh's descendants, till recently, or branched of from another Cymrych line fairly recently.

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes actually kinda makes exactly Corellon one of the most powerful being in the planes, but I myself (as suggested) would chalk it up to Mordenkainen researching very biased sources (as the thing is, Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes is actually in universe written by Mordenkainen, so by nature biased, and very possibly flawed) , as I also have Corellon as you suggested a powerful Fey Lord who became a Greater God, but just that.

Especially that it's implied Titania, the Queen of Air and Darkness, Cegilune, Oberon and especially Emmantiensien are at least implied to predate Corellon - especially Emmantiensien, who is described as being "timeless", having "always existed", or even "having no origin in time".

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes actually (possibly intentionally) gives a window of possibility that the stories about Corellon being ancestor of all things elven is not true - as it mentions 2 possible origins for Ghaunadaur - one it/him being another of Primal Elves spawned from Corellon, and other Ghaunadaur being an alien being a being predating Corellon, and most other things (which is generally Ghaunadaur backstory in other sources.)

[EDIT]

Although to be clear, I find the idea of "Primal Elves" very interesting and useful, with the exception of the fact they were born from Corellon's blood.
Gary Dallison Posted - 03 Jul 2019 : 14:19:22
I did catch that mention of Kendrick but discounted it as proof because it mentions carrathal in there and thay line did not exist until 944 DR.

Does anyone have any feelings for or against keeping the Kendricks as an ancient line or should they be a more recent evolution in light of the lore from the novel (if they aren't more ancient why did the pontswains not get chosen to rule).


As for primal elves. I'm very much against having all the elves, eladrin, leshay and other elfin beings descended from corellon and I would definitely regard anything supporting that claim as propaganda. But that's just my personal feelings, I'm not anti elf but I see no reason to overly glorify corellon in such a way.

Making him the ancestor of many millions of powerful beings would make him among the most powerful beings in the planes (every leshay, eladrin, and elf would owe him fealty). I much prefer him to be one of many lords of the fey who are the "primal elves" and that later some of them became gods.
Baltas Posted - 03 Jul 2019 : 13:24:47
Well, I found is the description of the monarchies of the Ffolk in the Grand History of the Realms - The Moonshaes in Dragon #362, stating the Kendrick are relatives/descendants of the Cymrych Dynasty/family, along with several other royal families. With the name Kendrick being a corruption/alternate spelling and pronunciation of Cymrych:

quote:
The Legacy of Cymrych Hugh: The war with Kazgaroth in the Year of the Student (201 DR) resulted in the
death of most of the ruling families of the Ffolk. Surviving nobles married their daughters to the children and
grandchildren of Cymrych Hugh to establish a connection to the royal bloodline. Within a few short generations,
every ruling family in the Moonshaes adopted the surname Cymrych.
With High King Tanner's death and the loss of the Sword of Cymrych Hugh in the Year of the Animated Armor
(944 DR), the noble families begin to distance themselves from the legendary (or imaginary some would say)
Cymrych Hugh. Each family took to spelling and pronouncing their particular names differently. Thus, the
bloodline of Cymrych diverged into the royal lines of Carrathal, Kendrick, Selkirk, Cambridge, Kimball, Cyric,
Riker, and Kincaid.



Although this makes it possible the Kendrick family might had a different spelling, or even being a branch of Carrathal, Selkirk, Cambridge, Kimball, Cyric, Riker, or Kincaid families.

Also, about the LeShay and Primal Elves - after (finally) buying and reading Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, I discovered that book established all elves and most fey and seemingly nearly Archfey are described be descended from Corellon via the the Primal Elves that sprouted from his blood.

Among this these Primal Elves though, curiously were the first members of Seldarine, who were the greatest of the Primal Elves (curiously, including here Zandilar the Dancer as one of the proto-Seldarine).

It also mentions the Eladrin are closer to the Primal Elves, and the as mentioned Moonshae Isles Regional Guide, the LeShay are the closest among the Eladrin to the Primal Elves.

As I mentioned though, the all elves and most or all fey and Archfey being descended from Corellon Larethian, might be just seen as a version of the reall events thought up, or at least interpreted by Corellon's worshipers, which spread to the vast majority of the elven population.
Gary Dallison Posted - 01 Jul 2019 : 20:51:16
Thank you for the approval, its good to know at least someone likes it. I try to include at least a nod to all the lore (unless its truly dire in quality), George i believe got his idea from a quote from the 1e campaign setting (or a quote from Ed) so i tried to obey that first. I picture the northmen arriving on the Moonshaes, then heading south and gradually moving north, each time abandoning former holds entirely or being driven away, so almost nothing of their more southerly holdings remain until they reach the wilderness of the Sword Coast North.



My latest quandary however is what to do with the Kendricks. One of the novels mentions that the Kendricks ruled only Corwell for 200 years. I have found nothing to prove or disprove that the Kendrick line existed further back than 200 years.

So i still have two options, either i invent a kingdom that the Kendrick line also ruled and that rule ended (with the kingdom being absorbed or destroyed) 200 years ago thus fulfilling the ruling only Corwell for 200 years. Or the Kendrick line did not come into existence as a royal dynasty until 200 years ago.

I've checked the lineages and nothing mentions an old kendrick, i checked the history entries and it mentions King Durnhal and Queen Morgan but no indication of a family name. I checked all the sources i can find and nothing Kendrick before Bryon Kendrick

The only spurious link i can make is the picture in Dragon 362 of Prince Ketheryl capturing King Durnhal is that he carried a cloak with the emblem of a wolf's head on it (or a bears head, either could be the symbol of the Kendrick dynasty), however, i've already made King Durnhal of a different dynasty to the Kendricks and his death ended that dynasty (although some kin survived and changed their name to Pontswain - hence a claim to royal blood).


So anyone got any thoughts or lore i've missed that proves or disproves the existence of the Kendricks and solves the problem.
Baltas Posted - 01 Jul 2019 : 20:08:25
I actually quite like it - it makes more sense than Netherese knowing the Earthmother, but her Jannath's faith influencing the Talfir who came to the Moonshae Isles, works very well.

With the Changelings, Rusalkas and Veelas, I mentioned them to set precedence for Eladrin, but I really like your idea/take on it with Kazgoroth - especially that it uses a version George's Krashos idea of Northmen coming from Moonshae Isles, although here it being an important (in unlucky) landing point for them from which they (or a portion of Northmen) spread to Amn and Tethyr, and the Sword Coast, to Sword Coast North (which connects to their classic origins.)
Gary Dallison Posted - 01 Jul 2019 : 16:36:30
I did note the rumour in the norheim isles that northmen dislike were seals (realms bestiary) because they think they are stealing their children. I've solved that myth through sea wolves (sea wolves and were seals look the same from the surface)

However northmen fear of Fey and child stealing goes much deeper. I decided since the northmen arrived ages ago (-2000 ish) that they landed on the moonshae but were driven away, hence their deep rooted fear and mistrust of the islands and all things fey.

This landing coincided with kazgoroths first war and I figured they northmen were unwilling conscripts and their children became breeding stock for more fey cannon fodder.

I hadn't decided if any survived in faeree but I did conclude most northmen were slain and the few survivors headed south to amn and tethyr, slowly moving up the coast until reaching the sword coast north.

I suppose the enslaved women could become Veela like, the men could be the guardian trolls in the novels
Gary Dallison Posted - 01 Jul 2019 : 16:26:32
I wont make the Earthmother and Jannath the same, but the talfir fled former netherese territory and so likely inherited some form of Jannath based religion that survived in some form until they arrived on the Moonshae Isles and this allowed them to easily accept the teachings of the llewyrr about balance and the earthmother.
The above is also how I will explain the scrolls of arcanus being similar and understandable to the ffolk - it was also created by people that inherited Jannath worship which eventually morphed into chauntea through immigration of northmen or jhaam or calishite people.
Baltas Posted - 01 Jul 2019 : 15:14:38
I think the Earthmother was identified with Chauntea, as it was seen as an attempt to integrate the Moonshae Isles with the rest of Toril, and to "streamline" the pantheon.

This was further attempted to be cemented, by having Chauntea in past - as Jannath - be more similar to the Earthmother, up to Jannath being known as "the Earthmother".

Our of this though, I started to think maybe Jannath is the Earthmother (whose cult was present in Netheril, which could explain some things), while Chauntea is another being, possibly Othea.

Also continuing about Eladrin - I don't think LeShay (or another group of Drine) influencing/changing Arborea to have petitioners become Eladrin, is outright soul stealing, rather changing the mechanisms of the plane if for the drine's own good and "survival' of their species in their own way, but still "mortally gray" enough to fit the LeShay. When one thinks about is also not different from (if I remember right) non-elven petitioners of the Seldarine being given an elven forms on Arvandor.

There is also the fact it seems the Seelie Court/Faerie Demiplane in 2E wandered between Arborea, Ysgard, and the Beastlands, and the Unseelie court in Pandemonium, and there were described as dwelling the Fey of the Seelie and Unselie courts.

Although to be clear, I personally have the Faerie/Feywild Fey/Elven Eladrin and planar Eladrin as separate, but related beings.

[EDIT]

Some interpreted the stories of Changelings, as abducted by Fairies children overtime themselves become Fairies, like in Changeling: The Lost.

There is something similar in Slavic folklore, with Rusalkas and Vile being incarnated souls of young women or girls (ie Rusalkas from virgins that weren't married, or drowned, while Vila from unbaptized girls), although this is connected with the (pagan) Slavic belief in reincarnation.

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