| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alexander Clark |
Posted - 17 Mar 2019 : 23:02:31
I am wondering why a person would worship Kelemvor.
For some other deities it's easy. "I like sex so I worship Sharess" or "I believe in justice so I really, really like Tyr."
But other than classic and frankly somewhat boring trope "some undead killed my relatives" I can't think of a good reason for someone to become a cleric of Kelemvor. Any ideas? |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wenin |
Posted - 25 Mar 2019 : 19:03:22
As I recall from my reading of the novels, when someone dies their soul goes to the Fugue Plane. It wanders the plane, as its soul attempts to recall and recite the prayers of its deity. If successful, their wandering path leads them to a gathering of similarly praying souls. A proxy for their deity sweeps over the Fugue Plane, listening for the prayers of its God's faithful. The proxy finds them, and gathers them up, leading them on to the afterlife within their deity's realm. Kelemvor never sees these souls.
For those that are unsuccessful in their attempts, their path eventually leads them to the gates of the City of the Dead. Allowed into the gates, they are sorted by the devils, faithless go to the Wall, and the False are claimed and tortured.
If there is a dispute over a soul, those claiming the dispute petition Kelemvor, who presides over the court that rules on the fate of the soul.
Back to the wall... there are times that the Demons of the Abyss invade the Fugue Plane and attack the city's wall. Their goal is to rip as many souls from the walls as possible.
---- The following is my further interpretation ----
I also believe that for those souls that are wandering the Fugue Plane, destined for the gates to the City of the Dead, Devils are allowed to offer them "deals". They are unable to bargain from a position of strength, so the resulting deals are fairly one sided. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 23 Mar 2019 : 22:40:17
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I imagine that clerics, in their own way, are considered part of the bureaucracy. They can work it, but IIRC and without looking-so I could be wrong, there has been lore that Kelemvor is not fond of allowing resurrections.
Actually, Kelemvor is against the unnatural extension of life, which is not necessarily the same as resurrection. If a person does not seek undeath, eternal youth, or resurrection long after they died of expended lifespan, Kelemvor is fine with the revival of dead people.
In fact, Kelemvor's specialty priests are given a special advantage of making resurrection less traumatic on revived creatures in Faiths and Avatars.
Kelemvor's high clerics are among the best revivers to go to, as long as they are not asked to touch natural biological lifespans in the process of resurrection.
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| TomCosta |
Posted - 23 Mar 2019 : 21:52:03
I imagine that clerics, in their own way, are considered part of the bureaucracy. They can work it, but IIRC and without looking-so I could be wrong, there has been lore that Kelemvor is not fond of allowing resurrections. |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 23 Mar 2019 : 13:49:08
So Kelemvor's (highest-level) clerics would not dare to perform resurrections? |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 23 Mar 2019 : 12:23:51
I think we are making this seem way more simplistic than it needs to be. God shows up and takes soul and done. If it were that simple, why even need Kelemvor (or Myrkul or Jergal beforehand). This is clearly a highly Byzantine process with lots of nuance, thus Jergal keeping the rolls. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Mar 2019 : 05:58:10
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Kelemvor controls whether souls make it to the afterlife with their patron deity or if they are faithless or false.
My understanding is the opposite: normally deities claim "their own" and are given "close enough" cases, Faithless and False are the ones unclaimed.
Having him more in control than this in a non-unified pantheon wrecks the balance of power. Which is why his pocket mini- Great Wheel had to go, and the Wall is back, of course.
Claiming everyone "by default" (unless claimed by another god) was not something the rest could allow. Nor incentives to ditch them.
So the conditions on which the Wall could be removed are simple. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Mar 2019 : 03:16:59
Don't remind me of that Wall. Is the only thing I don't like about him... |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 21 Mar 2019 : 02:21:23
Well what do we know. Does a god ask for the soul or does Kelemvor send it on or both. Does it matter? The bottom line is Kelemvor has the souls and his bureaucracy is the bottleneck to getting them where they need to go or to punishing them in his wall. He follows the rules, but that doesn't mean he can't occasionally slow roll someone moving on (in fact IIRC, he's done it) or lose one (granted I think he's probably too ethical to do something like that, but give the right circumstances, he might). |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 20 Mar 2019 : 14:47:49
Many on the surface of Faerun would pray for safe passage in the afterlife for their loved ones.
Some would decide to serve as priests and ministers to help comfort the bereaved.
|
| Alexander Clark |
Posted - 20 Mar 2019 : 10:50:40
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Kelemvor controls whether souls make it to the afterlife with their patron deity or if they are faithless or false.
Oh, I did not know that. I thought if some deity wants a dead person they go to Kelemvor's place and take them. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 20 Mar 2019 : 01:24:36
Kelemvor controls whether souls make it to the afterlife with their patron deity or if they are faithless or false. That's pretty important at least to anyone who wants to think that deeply about such things. Granted there's rules he has to follow to get along with the other gods and such, but doesn't change the fact that he's the bureaucrat in charge of this process, and there's real power in that.
As for Jergal, he's LN, but he's trafficked in evil to meet his ends. In 1E parlance, I'd probably make him LN with evil tendencies. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 19 Mar 2019 : 20:28:09
If I recall correctly, Jergal was legal evil by the time of Netheril. He was considered "the ultimate tyrant" by the Netherese (nobody could escape from him in the end), and was also the lord of the undead. So, another "death is evulz" god. |
| Alexander Clark |
Posted - 19 Mar 2019 : 14:19:13
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
whose main attractive point is that his take on death is not "hurr, durr, death iz evulz *insert evil laugh here*", like Myrkul or Jergal did in times past.
I am quickly going off the topic, but was Jergal ever explicitly stated as evil? I thought he was more of an indifferent deity that just doesn't care about mortals that much. Powers and Pantheons list Jergal as Lawful Neutral. Now Cyric and Myrkul, those were some evil jerks.  |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 18 Mar 2019 : 22:00:38
Yeah, they're still the most popular, as the Realms has mostly an agrarian culture still.
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Tradition
Isn't Kelemvor actually a relatively new god that does stuff differently than his predecessors?
Kelemvor is more than 150 years old by now. By this point, you can consider his religion tradition.
If you're playing in the Realms before the Spellplague, then yes, he a new god, whose main attractive point is that his take on death is not "hurr, durr, death iz evulz *insert evil laugh here*", like Myrkul or Jergal did in times past. |
| Alexander Clark |
Posted - 18 Mar 2019 : 18:27:04
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Tradition
Isn't Kelemvor actually a relatively new god that does stuff differently than his predecessors?
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
My guess is more people come to the faith later in life (after they've experienced loss or approach their own end) than earlier.
I am not sure about that idea. I think all deities offer an afterlife and someone like Sune has an afterlife that an average person would consider more pleasant.
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz660
being a lay follower of Kelemvor could open opportunities for access to wealth and power being a merchant or tradesperson could not. The promise of retailing and immortalising ones life and death and performing well with dignity could see you immune to intrigues and prospering in the chaos. Likewise elsewhere cut and thrust intrigues survive. Death has always been a business.
I'd think being a cleric of any popular deity would be a nice career if you can get it.  Aren't "agrarian" clerics more popular among people anyway? |
| Jaz660 |
Posted - 18 Mar 2019 : 02:47:38
I tend to think fantasy medieval life expectancy is lowish, and for most folk death is the end. In large urbanised areas ( Calimshan cities for example ) with societal class and gender bias, being a lay follower of Kelemvor could open opportunities for access to wealth and power being a merchant or tradesperson could not. The promise of retailing and immortalising ones life and death and performing well with dignity could see you immune to intrigues and prospering in the chaos. Likewise elsewhere cut and thrust intrigues survive. Death has always been a business. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Mar 2019 : 01:38:17
That's a good point. I wonder if Kelemvor gets a lot of converts from other religions who have seen too many friends die on adventures. If that is true, then this church may be somewhat top heavy with fewer low level clergy. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 18 Mar 2019 : 00:27:21
Tradition (ghostwise halflings worship Urogalan who is surprisingingly similar to Kelemvor, for as much that reason as any other). Death is an ever present part of life. Focus on the afterlife is an extremely important of many current religions and Kelemvor is at the center of that for the Realms. Plus there are all the executioners, graveskeepers, morticians, professional keeners, providers of last rites, and the like, not to mention folks who have to set up inheritances (if in question), that have to manage death for others--all of which are never ending businesses. Some are drawn to the provision of solace to those in grief. Some are simply fascinated by the unknowable. Some are both. Plus as you ably point out, in a world where the suffering of loved ones may continue into undeath and the undead are all too common, the orderly maintenance of the circle of life is even more important. My guess is more people come to the faith later in life (after they've experienced loss or approach their own end) than earlier. |
| Matthian |
Posted - 18 Mar 2019 : 00:23:40
From what I understand, one of Kelemvor's big things is about a peaceful transfer of the dying into the afterlife. Maybe good people who want to ease the passing of others, so they're not scared, would be a cleric of Kelemvor. This might arise from someone just genuinely being a good person, or perhaps seeing a loved one die while scared, or had a love one die alone, and they'd want to help others avoid that in the future. |
