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 The order of the red wizards of thay

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Ozzimandias Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 15:50:03
I tried to find any Information about the red wizard order by looking in your archives and elsewhere.

So I guess my basics are pretty Solid so far.
What i am missing in the lore is:
Any explanation for their symbol. I chose it as my Avatar and found it before but I couldn't find a better Version or any explanation of it's means.
Plus: is the Symbol an official guild-like sigil?
Would a former red wizard (as far as I know the order was destroyed in the treachery of a former Leader of the order) still use the Symbol for example on His clothing?

Next question:
Since the order was all about Power and treachery, i guess they distrusted everyone and espeacially everyone who was not Part of their Order (their "allied" drow for example). Did they have some Kind of secret written Code to communicate without a foreigner to be able to read it or something like that?
Do you know anything about this?
15   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 10 Oct 2018 : 05:05:44
Seeker Fineva,

Agreed. The items of power, and spells at their disposal, were truly an awe-inspiring array of devastating power!

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Fineva

Pre spell plague the Zulkirs had incredible artifacts that made them safe unless they ticked off the Ustikir
-thanks George Krashos for your facts.
Sleyvas I think there's an artifact run by Mystra there that people might mistake for red weave? Heh heh heh
-Fineva

Fineva Posted - 10 Oct 2018 : 04:34:29
Pre spell plague the Zulkirs had incredible artifacts that made them safe unless they ticked off the Ustikir
-thanks George Krashos for your facts.
Sleyvas I think there's an artifact run by Mystra there that people might mistake for red weave? Heh heh heh
-Fineva
cpthero2 Posted - 09 Oct 2018 : 23:37:56
Acolyte Ozzimandias,

Aside from analysis as to what the Red Wizards are or are not, I will address your question directly, which I quote below for posterity:
quote:
Did they have some Kind of secret written Code to communicate without a foreigner to be able to read it or something like that?


I do not believe, from anything I know regarding the Red Wizards, pre-Spellplague, that they had any particular approach to communication that was secret and specific to the Red Wizards, such as for example, the secret form of communication that Drow use with one another.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Ozzimandias

I tried to find any Information about the red wizard order by looking in your archives and elsewhere.

So I guess my basics are pretty Solid so far.
What i am missing in the lore is:
Any explanation for their symbol. I chose it as my Avatar and found it before but I couldn't find a better Version or any explanation of it's means.
Plus: is the Symbol an official guild-like sigil?
Would a former red wizard (as far as I know the order was destroyed in the treachery of a former Leader of the order) still use the Symbol for example on His clothing?

Next question:
Since the order was all about Power and treachery, i guess they distrusted everyone and espeacially everyone who was not Part of their Order (their "allied" drow for example). Did they have some Kind of secret written Code to communicate without a foreigner to be able to read it or something like that?
Do you know anything about this?

sleyvas Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 23:35:24
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

Your information is hilariously wrong. The Image is an old representation of the 8 outdated Schools of Magic in Thay. With the raising of Arch Zulkir Tam, the schools have evolved to 12. Thay has also abandoned your Silver Mystra Weave and adopted its own Red Tam Weave. Although we also dabble with Shars' Shadow Weave which we have strengthened.

The Symbol is also representative of the the Map of Thay. Main Cities of Thay, etc...

As for the rest of your Information. It is about as accurate as Elminster actually being a Dwarf named Gloop who plays with a silver hammer. It is true we Red Wizards tell tall tales about Thay but what is written here is so far from the truth as to be hilarious.

As for the Twelve Schools well here is a hint.

Abjuration
Chronomancy
Thaumaturgy
Transformation

Illusion
Evocation
Conjuration
Apportation

Necromancy
Demonology
Enchantment
Scryology (Formerly Divination)


As a Scryology Specialist I tend to look in and laugh at other Wizards musings and ramblings.





Of course the symbol is the old version. It was pre-spellplague. As to the musings about the Red Tam Weave, I can tell that you have obviously fallen victim to a merchant from the United Tharchs of Toril.... probably one from either the Tharch of the Wizard's Reach or the Tharch of Peleveran. I'd heard that they were selling a certain powdered berry from the Red Mineral Forest of Shyr that induces hallucinations to Tam's red wizards, hallucinations that seem like miraculous visions, so I can see why someone from the school of Scryology was tricked into taking it. Please tell me you didn't sniff any of the grey stuff they've been selling.... if you did, please make sure you are close to a place with a chamberpot and I highly recommend some wind control spells. I honestly didn't believe Zulkir Lauzoril when he said he was going to break down Tam's wizards with as simple of a trick as drug peddling, but apparently the horrors of their homeland (which in its heyday was quite beautiful with growing and living things) must make the current occupants of the country simple marks for the red wizards returning from Abeir. Add to the fact that Tam himself has gone insane by all accounts.... I guess the question of "will Thay fall to the returning red wizards?" should instead become "do the returning red wizards really want their old homeland anymore, and will they simply wipe out the threat just to remove the obstacle?".


The Masked Mage Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 21:25:30
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

[quote]Side note: you'll see me occasionally discussing a side project I'm developing that I'm calling "The United Tharchs of Toril" in which I'm taking small sections of unexplored or slightly explored areas of Faerun and adapting them for a new "empire" of red wizards composed of small tharchs all over the world. With portals and other magics, this is a lot more doable than it would be in our real world, but even then Britain and other countries had such for a time.


Tell me more. I like that idea, Red Wizards ruling all of Toril.


And that's the short version.



I don't think the red wizards ever had the kind of power to capture much of the World, especially because they would never unite to seize anything, but I do think they could have gained powerful footholds in certain regions following the spellplague.

In my mind many of the Zulkirs survived their conflict with Tam and retreated to various holdings of power, both inside and outside of Thay. There was another thread about this (or several) some time ago where I explained how we only really see 1 killed. The rest are just supposition that can be explained away many ways.

I imagine half a dozen or so powerful factions of Red Wizards following the Undead Wars, and eventually one or more of them would bring Eltab back into the mix again (max 100 year wait). I also think there is something that keeps the more powerful among them in Thay. Nodes or something like that that they draw power from.
George Krashos Posted - 27 May 2018 : 11:11:11
I'll leave it to sleyvas to respond.

-- George Krashos
Thraskir Skimper Posted - 27 May 2018 : 07:05:51
Your information is hilariously wrong. The Image is an old representation of the 8 outdated Schools of Magic in Thay. With the raising of Arch Zulkir Tam, the schools have evolved to 12. Thay has also abandoned your Silver Mystra Weave and adopted its own Red Tam Weave. Although we also dabble with Shars' Shadow Weave which we have strengthened.

The Symbol is also representative of the the Map of Thay. Main Cities of Thay, etc...

As for the rest of your Information. It is about as accurate as Elminster actually being a Dwarf named Gloop who plays with a silver hammer. It is true we Red Wizards tell tall tales about Thay but what is written here is so far from the truth as to be hilarious.

As for the Twelve Schools well here is a hint.

Abjuration
Chronomancy
Thaumaturgy
Transformation

Illusion
Evocation
Conjuration
Apportation

Necromancy
Demonology
Enchantment
Scryology (Formerly Divination)


As a Scryology Specialist I tend to look in and laugh at other Wizards musings and ramblings.

sleyvas Posted - 22 Jun 2017 : 03:17:28
Oh, and just to show the layout of these various Tharchs, I made this JPEG map to give a rough overview. I have more specific maps I've developed as well, but I'm not ready to release them yet. Still tweaking.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CYc8h_6sg8YVJTU1FxbVhSWmc/view?usp=sharing
sleyvas Posted - 22 Jun 2017 : 02:57:16
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

[quote]Side note: you'll see me occasionally discussing a side project I'm developing that I'm calling "The United Tharchs of Toril" in which I'm taking small sections of unexplored or slightly explored areas of Faerun and adapting them for a new "empire" of red wizards composed of small tharchs all over the world. With portals and other magics, this is a lot more doable than it would be in our real world, but even then Britain and other countries had such for a time.


Tell me more. I like that idea, Red Wizards ruling all of Toril.




Well, I've got about 80 pages written so far, but just to break it down into bite sized chunks...

Firstly, the United Tharchs of Toril were mainly founded while in Abeir. Its only since they've come back in the last year or so that the extent of their expansion is being known to the rest of Toril.

Mythrell'aa faked her death. She had discovered a lost Netherese Enclave known as Doubloon, which can turn itself invisible, was stolen by the Nimbraii fleeing Halruaa, and eventually had a spelljamming helm attached and moved into orbit. This has become known as the Tharch of Luneira. It has made alliances with a strange fey race known as the ellefolk that inhabit the moon after Mythrell'aa rescued Phlandra Alabaster (their ruler). This Tharch visited the Oslander Islands off the eastern shores of Osse (how much of which went to Abeir I have yet to decide, though I'm leaning towards a small amount). These Oslanders treat the red wizards with reverence and great respect.

Zulkir Samas Kul built a red wizard trade enclave at Fort Flame (the Balduran Bay colony setup by the flaming fist) prior to the start of the civil war. They offered to help protect the colony in return for land. This colony grew in population during the civil war as Thayan civilians fled their country to enclaves. This one in particular offered free land to anyone who would come, as well as lumber and other materials necessary to start anew. Though Samas did not see the fruits of his labor, this colony would be the starting point for several other colonies. After the spellplague, many red wizards and people from the surrounding territories of Thayan Enclaves of Tashluta in Tashalar, Lundeth in Thindol, and Samargol in Samarach flee via secret portals in the red wizard enclaves for Balduran Bay. These three cities of the Serpent Kingdoms had also transferred to Abeir, but they were conquered by Abeirans in the surrounding territories.

BTW, the red wizards believe (and they may be correct) that the reason that much of the territories that transferred to Abeir had something to do with the portal network that they had established between several of their trade enclaves. This portal network was in use during the spellplague linking several cities at once, and the portal network survived intact. It was due to this portal network that the red wizards in Chessenta (Cimbar and Soorenar) were able to contact the red wizards in the other enclaves and everyone was able to quickly relay information about what had happened (whereas most of the people in Maztica and Anchorome and Katashaka had no clue.

Zulkir Yaphyll, upon being required to by Szass Tam, cast a spell which split herself in two and sent a portion of herself into the future (this is from the Haunted Lands Trilogy), wherein she saw the spellplague. This version of Yaphyll in the future actually was hit by the spellplague and transferred to Abeir. She became a mortal servant of Savras (as did Mythrell'aa for Leira) in Abeir.

Cimbar, Soorenar, and several other areas of Western Chessenta were copied at least in portions to Abeir, as did much of Northern Unther and Eastern Threskel and the Northeastern Shaar. In Soorenar, Velsharoon's avatar is awakened from a phylactery stored in the Tower Terrible by Mimuay (Lauzoril's daughter from the Simbul's Gift who is touched by necromancy). Zulkir Lauzoril's clone is awakened by Mimuay, as is the clone of "Tharchion" Dmitra Flass. Some of the Mulan peoples of these areas would unite to rebuild the city of Peleveran down in the Shaar (on Abeir). They then expand to cover much of the Shaar over the next century, founding the Tharch of Peleveran.

Prior to the spellplague, red wizards in Balduran Bay Enclave (aka Fort Flame), expand eastward seeking the fabled "City of Gold". They uncover an ancient city of evil known as Esh Alakar filled with powerful magic golems and undead. They magically subvert these magical beings and along with their personal armies subjugate several tribes of the region. The surrounding lands are full of deserts and they set about making the area more prosperous. In particular, they begin studying the art of glass making in particular to uncover the art of making glassteel, and much slag glass is mixed with clay to form "the City on the Great Glass Lake" (which is filled with water by weather control magics). This tharch eventually gets some "Gondsmen" from a city in the serpent kingdoms named Lundeth, and they bring the art of further technology with them (wind and water mills, manufacturing technologies, etc..). This will eventually become the Tharch of Esh Alakar.

A few years after the founding of Esh Alakar, but just before the Spellplague, several red wizards decide to head further south into the jungles of Lopango "The Land of Fire". They found another colony, this one much richer in agriculture and far enough away from the local Mazticans that it can grow. It has some issues with some jungle orcs nearby, but they soon put the nearer orcs in their place. This group begins studying of breeding creatures, and they also begin to "lose their cultural identity" according to some red wizards, who believe these red wizards have embraced the local populations too much. Some also don't like how religious this colony is. This will eventually become the Tharch of the Lopango Jungles.

Around two decades after the founding of the Lopango enclave (and a similar time after the spellplague), of those red wizards who feel their race is being diluted in the Lopango, they decide (along with some Metahel humans) to expand into the continent of Katashaka. Their searching of this continent finds that it has not seen humanity for centuries, if not millennia, and they decide to setup colonies along the western coastline. These colonies bring civilization to Katashaka, but a civilization with all its attendant horrors as well. However, with this civilization comes an easier life for many who live in Katashaka, which begins to change from multiple hunter/gatherer societies into agricultural and animal husbandry society. They also become masters of the sea and expand to some islands to the west of Katashaka (though the Metahel humans lay claim to most of these more secure but isolated island domains while the red wizards slowly expand down the western coastline over the next four decades. This becomes known as the Tharch of the Western Pridelands, and during its growth is when the United Tharchs officially are born as a united group.

Eventually, the red wizards of the Western Pridelands decide to set themselves for expansion again. They set their eyes on a settlement in Eastern Katashaka, and through aiding some cast out cat folk, seizes some prize territory on an Escarpment. They quickly use magic to make the central lake larger and begin construction of a beautiful city, which they name New Eltabbar. Though this Tharch is confined to a small region (it would be perhaps half the size of Aglarond), it is very rich and its people decadent.

And that's the short version.
Brimstone Posted - 21 Jun 2017 : 14:32:56
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

[quote]Side note: you'll see me occasionally discussing a side project I'm developing that I'm calling "The United Tharchs of Toril" in which I'm taking small sections of unexplored or slightly explored areas of Faerun and adapting them for a new "empire" of red wizards composed of small tharchs all over the world. With portals and other magics, this is a lot more doable than it would be in our real world, but even then Britain and other countries had such for a time.


Tell me more. I like that idea, Red Wizards ruling all of Toril.
sleyvas Posted - 21 Jun 2017 : 14:11:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzimandias

Lets not hang Up on the Word "Order". It might be a Problem of my lack in translation german into english.

My question aims for the Symbol mainly and if there maybe is another Symbol for recognition and/or an explanation of what this Symbol means.



The symbol is from 3rd edition. Prior to that all references were that they used a dancing flame symbology. This symbology is basically to denote 8 schools of magic by the 8 orbs. Then throw in lightning and silver to make it look "magicky".

I'm a big red wizards fan. I'll be glad to answer any questions you have after doing a little research. Check out "Dreams of the Red Wizards" and "Spellbound" and "Unapproachable East" for the major stuff. I'd also recommend checking out the Old Empires as well. There's red wizard lore all over the place. In 5e, the red wizards are significantly changed from their pre-spellplague natures. There's some novels that explore this (the haunted lands trilogy).

Side note: you'll see me occasionally discussing a side project I'm developing that I'm calling "The United Tharchs of Toril" in which I'm taking small sections of unexplored or slightly explored areas of Faerun and adapting them for a new "empire" of red wizards composed of small tharchs all over the world. With portals and other magics, this is a lot more doable than it would be in our real world, but even then Britain and other countries had such for a time.
Ozzimandias Posted - 21 Jun 2017 : 04:26:57
Lets not hang Up on the Word "Order". It might be a Problem of my lack in translation german into english.

My question aims for the Symbol mainly and if there maybe is another Symbol for recognition and/or an explanation of what this Symbol means.
TBeholder Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 22:46:44
"Orders" used to exist before the secession - as totally-not-rebellious-cabals-honest! in Mulhorand. And presumably were gone like a tadpole's tail soon after the civil war started.

Either way, this emblem is fancy to the point of being unusable for intended purpose (easy identification), thus my bet it's introduced in 3e.
Earlier versions, IDK, maybe in FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards?
Ozzimandias Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 16:31:59
I am refering to a Wiki article i found on this, though I don't know how accurate
this is with the Lore.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Wizards_of_Thay
Hoondatha Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 16:25:26
Unless this is some massive change 5e made to the Realms, you have a completely wrong picture of the Red Wizards.

Red Wizards are not an order. They are the wizard rulers (and would-be rulers, and most of the nobility) of the nation of Thay. And they are basically all out to get each other. Each Red Wizard thinks they should be the ruler of the country, or a large chunk of the country, and they are constantly scheming against each other. They also want to expand Thay's borders and influence, though they don't agree on how, and they'll fight over the "right" way to make Thay great.

Basically, picture a council of archmages (the Zulkirs), all of whom want to kill all the others, but who are willing to work with certain others toward limited aims (before the inevitable betrayal). Behind each archmage is a huge number of apprentices and middling wizards, and a few additional archmages, who are all scheming to increase in power and replace the Zulkir.

Toss in a slave-based economy, where the word of a Red Wizard is law, unless it runs afoul of a more powerful/influential Red Wizard, and you're starting to get the picture of Thay.

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