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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Phantom_Lord Posted - 08 Sep 2004 : 08:28:14
I needed some comprehensive info on this quasi-power. Pre-ToT of course.

For example, the origins of Xvim are not entirely clear some say his mum was a demon some say she was a goody two shoes paladin that fell head over heels for Bane. He was also a ruler of Westgate for a while!

Anyone with any notes or info on Xvim?

Thanks, much appreciated!

Phantom_Lord
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Derulbaskul Posted - 10 Jan 2021 : 14:24:09
Bane always had the ability to reincarnate.

Remember Dragon 57 with Ed's Down to Earth Divinity article. It mentions of Bane:

BANE The “big baddie,” Lord Bane is never seen, although there are tales of a freezing black-taloned hand and eyes
of blazing fire, and can be considered as roughly equivalent to Druaga (DDG, p.23). He does not, however, rule the archdevils (see Note #4).

Going to DDG, we see this of Druaga:
"Druaga only fights in person when his soul object (always put in a living being) is threatened. The soul object is the total essence of his being. If Druaga's bodily form is destroyed, the soul object will begin regenerating a whole new being with all the memories of the old devil. The human that has Druaga's soul implanted in him or her has no knowledge of this, and will die at the same time the devil body's dies, so that when the human's body is buried, there will be a safe place for the new devil to grow."


sleyvas Posted - 30 Dec 2020 : 02:52:12
quote:
Originally posted by Bootravsky

Oh, that’s easy: nothing but slight phonetic similarities between Iyachtu Xvim and Ambuchar Devayam. I just like the idea of something that ties the east and west realms tighter. They’ve always felt so separate, since most Realms products ignore Semphar and Murghom. Wasn’t Bane from the East as a living being? I think Myrkul was from Murghom, and Baal was Netherese (4e...).


quote:


What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.





I don't see a lot of phonetic similarity between Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim, nor much similarity in their stories, nor anything to link Ambuchar to Jergal as his son.
Bootravsky Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 02:48:43
Oh, that’s easy: nothing but slight phonetic similarities between Iyachtu Xvim and Ambuchar Devayam. I just like the idea of something that ties the east and west realms tighter. They’ve always felt so separate, since most Realms products ignore Semphar and Murghom. Wasn’t Bane from the East as a living being? I think Myrkul was from Murghom, and Baal was Netherese (4e...).


quote:


What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.

sleyvas Posted - 28 Dec 2020 : 22:29:32
quote:
Originally posted by Bootravsky

In a similar way, I had the theory that Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim were different iterations of the Baneson, just from different lands and times - their names seem similar enough also. Maybe, they are all immortal beings that feed into the story cycle of the Strife Father being consumed by his child, a Faerunian version of Chronos/Zeus, or Arthur/Mordred. AND maybe Gilgeam is yet another iteration.
Jergal’s first child (DR -1377) = Ambuchar Devayam
Jergal splits his portfolio (-350s - -88)
The early first millennia = Gilgeam
DR 759 -1368 = Iyachtu Xvim

Timeline is messy, but who cares?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.





What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.
Bootravsky Posted - 28 Dec 2020 : 15:36:39
In a similar way, I had the theory that Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim were different iterations of the Baneson, just from different lands and times - their names seem similar enough also. Maybe, they are all immortal beings that feed into the story cycle of the Strife Father being consumed by his child, a Faerunian version of Chronos/Zeus, or Arthur/Mordred. AND maybe Gilgeam is yet another iteration.
Jergal’s first child (DR -1377) = Ambuchar Devayam
Jergal splits his portfolio (-350s - -88)
The early first millennia = Gilgeam
DR 759 -1368 = Iyachtu Xvim

Timeline is messy, but who cares?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

cpthero2 Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 06:39:02
Learned Scribe Returnip,

I must say, I have a real love for a little more mystery in there as well. Having the gods too defined makes it a little pointless to me!

Best regards,






PattPlays Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 04:10:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.



Apparently making a new planet is easier than stopping a big snowball.



I wonder where said ice-ball is now if it passed between the two planetary bodies and went careening off into realmspace...
Wooly Rupert Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 03:21:06
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.



Apparently making a new planet is easier than stopping a big snowball.
Delnyn Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 23:26:47
Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 22:25:22
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.

-- George Krashos



Ok, so two copies of the same reality but just slightly out of sync? Like vision after a hard hit to the head or after a few drinks too many? Or perhaps you can only see one of them at a time?



Not even a copy, which is one of the reasons the idea just doesn't work for me. It's a separate world with its own distinct landmasses and everything. It's a fraternal twin, not an identical one.
Returnip Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 21:20:19
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.

-- George Krashos



Ok, so two copies of the same reality but just slightly out of sync? Like vision after a hard hit to the head or after a few drinks too many? Or perhaps you can only see one of them at a time?
George Krashos Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 21:02:49
It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.

-- George Krashos
Returnip Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 20:52:49
I've tried to understand the difference between Abeir and Toril but none of the links I've googled up has provided me with any satisfying explanation. Would you care to enlighten me or point me to a link that explains it?
Delnyn Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 19:40:24
Now imagine Xvim not only posing as Bane, but splitting off a portion of his essence to go to Abeir per Sleyvas' ruminations. So Xvim is Bane on Toril and Gilgeam on Abeir. Quite a way to double-dip.
Returnip Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 18:54:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's never been conclusively stated anywhere..


No, I get that. I just thought it was obvious. I tend to think of divine power not as people but as an energy in these cases. The domains move around between the gods of the Forgotten Realms all the time. Xvim calls himself Bane. Tiamat calls herself Entropy. These beings will do anything for a little more power.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 17:50:00
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Xvim is Bane 2.0.


I thought that was pretty obvious. Didn't know it was contested. A vision is just a vision, and Xvim could have planted it as it was percieved on purpose, sending a message. I never assumed that vision described was literally what had happened.



It's never been conclusively stated anywhere, and even if it was the intent, I think it's been forgotten or disregarded by the current design team... Which is sad, because -- in my opinion, of course -- it's one of the many opportunities to make things more interesting that was utterly kicked to the curb by later designers.
Returnip Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 13:58:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Xvim is Bane 2.0.


I thought that was pretty obvious. Didn't know it was contested. A vision is just a vision, and Xvim could have planted it as it was percieved on purpose, sending a message. I never assumed that vision described was literally what had happened.
cpthero2 Posted - 08 Oct 2018 : 13:54:56
Learned Scribe Misereor,

Wow. I commiserate.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Misereor

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that?



I'm afraid not. Between a flooded basement and a divorce, I usually have to go by recollection when quoting stuff. Lost damn near a full collection of FR stuff from 1st and 2nd ed. >:p



cpthero2 Posted - 08 Oct 2018 : 13:46:32
Learned Scribe Misereor,

haha...fair enough!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Misereor

quote:
Originally posted by redking
It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.



If an Unholy Ghost shows up at some point, I'm calling shenanigans.


Misereor Posted - 08 Oct 2018 : 08:11:31
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that?



I'm afraid not. Between a flooded basement and a divorce, I usually have to go by recollection when quoting stuff. Lost damn near a full collection of FR stuff from 1st and 2nd ed. >:p

Misereor Posted - 08 Oct 2018 : 08:01:14
quote:
Originally posted by redking
It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.



If an Unholy Ghost shows up at some point, I'm calling shenanigans.
cpthero2 Posted - 07 Oct 2018 : 14:49:53
Seeker redking,

I can absolutely see that. Though, I can see that they are and are not, at the exact same time.

I mean...there are rumors from the real world there is a religion that has some sort of confusing group of entities being individual and the same at the same time...

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by redking

I am with Wooly Rupert. Xvim is Bane, Bane is Xvim.

It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.

redking Posted - 07 Oct 2018 : 01:15:18
I am with Wooly Rupert. Xvim is Bane, Bane is Xvim.

It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.
cpthero2 Posted - 06 Oct 2018 : 03:38:45
Great Reader sleyvas,

You're quite welcome!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.





Thank you, and I don't use such products, but I do come up with wild ideas a lot. The other folks often have to reign me in by catching the parts I may miss, which usually leads to more extrapolation, and better ideas.

sleyvas Posted - 05 Oct 2018 : 22:59:36
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.





Thank you, and I don't use such products, but I do come up with wild ideas a lot. The other folks often have to reign me in by catching the parts I may miss, which usually leads to more extrapolation, and better ideas.

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