Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Malaugrym - Phoenix Prophecies Deep Question

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert Email Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]
Rolling Eyes [8|] Confused [?!:] Help [?:] King [3|:]
Laughing [:OD] What [W] Oooohh [:H] Down [:E]

  Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
    

T O P I C    R E V I E W
cpthero2 Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 21:53:28
Fellow Scribes,

I just ran across something that was a bit crazy to me: old history regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies.

I was reading a bit and I came across some information regarding Elminster, when he was still in his late 20's, and a fugitive/outlaw from Athalantar when his parents were murdered. Now, I know his parents were murdered proximate to 240 DR, and the future Royal Mage of Athalantar, Undorl, was responsible for it, but turned out to be a Malaugrym in disguise. Now, I was aware of that fact, but something dawned on me as I was considering it: the Phoenix Prophecies.

In light of the fact that The Great Sage would have a rather epic situation with the Malaugrym as we all know centuries later, it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

Thank you in advance and best regards,


25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 01:22:07
Master Mage,

I can certainly appreciate what you mean by your sentiment; however, I tend to give someone of Master Krashos' clout the latitude to expound. He has certainly earned his place in being a master of Realmslore. :)

Best regards,


The Masked Mage Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 00:39:59
The development of Malaug into Malaughadorn reminds me of nothing so much as the similar change of Ganon into Ganondorph. Both seem equally pointless.

But hey - they both carved a kingdom out of a Dark Realm so why not?
The Masked Mage Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 00:36:34
I don't really see much that is Leira-esque about them. Their lies are not founded in pure deception, rather in domination and hatred and vengeance.

I think of Leira as more of a purist :P
cpthero2 Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 00:13:56
Great Reader sleyvas,

Yeah, I love using Mask, Leira, Cyric, and Shar for all manner of plot devices in the vein of intrigue, lying, deception, etc. One of things I like to do greatly [and in case any of my players are reading this site for in game karma points and thinking this post of mine will help you, take it for what you will, as you know I sometimes do stuff like this to purposefully mislead you] is use the color schemes of purple and black for example to cause confusion between possible signs of Cyric or Shar, when it is really another god, perhaps, Mask and/or Leira, when in actuality, it is just a clever but powerful illusionist.

All sorts of good stuff to use!

Best regards,


cpthero2 Posted - 13 Sep 2020 : 00:09:02
Master Krashos,

When are we going to get that additional information?! :) That sounds absolutely awesome!

Best regards,



sleyvas Posted - 12 Sep 2020 : 15:33:29
On the question of whether I have any personal input to this, nothing is coming to mind at this time. Honestly, I'm barely remembering it now. On the idea though that the Malaugrym have some kind of ties to Leira.... that I can get behind. I wouldn't be surprised if this were "revealed" to be an organization that either Mask AND/OR Leira were involved in the creation of. I honestly like the idea where both these deities are involved with the group, sometimes competitively and sometimes cooperatively. I also know its only my homebrew, but the idea that "what's in heaven is mirrored on earth", wherein some portion of the leaders of both groups are in love but still serving their own god's agendas could be very fun and fit this group. Given that they are shapechangers, if this relationship had a gender fluidity to it as well (i.e. neither is specifically feminine or masculine), that could prove a weird but believable addition that some folks might like (though I see it having very little gameplay effect unless the party specifically interacts with both leaders, multiple times, but in different bodies).
George Krashos Posted - 12 Sep 2020 : 03:32:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I always thought the reveal that Undarl was Malaug was clumsy at best. There was zero evidence of him even being malaugrym in the novel - his "true form" reveal revealing a yaun-ti, and none of the characteristic transformation descriptions of shadowmasters from the other novels. I get why Ed decided to make the connection - to make Elminster's struggle against Shadowmasters literally life-long.

Still, there is no benefit to having him be Malaug. More importantly, from the other novels, Malaug is known to have created more than one artifact level magical item. He has none of them in Making of a Mage.
He created an entire pocket plane within the shadow plane, and was among the most powerful masters of shadow magic ever. He uses zero such magic in the novel. It is absurd. He is the creator and master of an entire race of powerful planeswalking and shapechanging archmages, but for some random reason chucks it all, and says to himself 'I want to lord over a couple wizards in a backwater realm and be bossed around by an incompetent and power hungry prince.' Why? It makes zero sense. He isn't even the most powerful mage lord.

If he had the power that the lord of the Malaugrym possessed, he could have simply killed the crown prince and taken his place. There was zero need to have a puppet prince. Worst shapechanging villain ever written.



There is more to be revealed about Malaug. Well, actually Malaughadorn the Mighty. And let's just say he had a beef with the Stout Folk and leave it at that.

-- George Krashos
cpthero2 Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 23:58:11
Great Reader Mage,

Even though it does of course appear you are right that the writing was clumsy at best, I like to write it off as being a possible Aspect of Leira or something like that. The idea that such a lie could be going on, and clearly not have access to, or possess certain assets, could be easily tied to that.

Leira is one of my most favorite deities for being so under written and utilized about.

What do you think Great Reader Mage? Aspect of Leira, or Chosen of Leira perhaps?

Best regards,




The Masked Mage Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 20:03:53
I always thought the reveal that Undarl was Malaug was clumsy at best. There was zero evidence of him even being malaugrym in the novel - his "true form" reveal revealing a yaun-ti, and none of the characteristic transformation descriptions of shadowmasters from the other novels. I get why Ed decided to make the connection - to make Elminster's struggle against Shadowmasters literally life-long.

Still, there is no benefit to having him be Malaug. More importantly, from the other novels, Malaug is known to have created more than one artifact level magical item. He has none of them in Making of a Mage.
He created an entire pocket plane within the shadow plane, and was among the most powerful masters of shadow magic ever. He uses zero such magic in the novel. It is absurd. He is the creator and master of an entire race of powerful planeswalking and shapechanging archmages, but for some random reason chucks it all, and says to himself 'I want to lord over a couple wizards in a backwater realm and be bossed around by an incompetent and power hungry prince.' Why? It makes zero sense. He isn't even the most powerful mage lord.

If he had the power that the lord of the Malaugrym possessed, he could have simply killed the crown prince and taken his place. There was zero need to have a puppet prince. Worst shapechanging villain ever written.
cpthero2 Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 18:00:27
Good morning all,

I was bumping this back up to the top as I was recently looking at the prophecies again. Great Reader sleyvas, did you have any ideas as to my earlier posed question?

Best regards,



cpthero2 Posted - 02 Jun 2019 : 17:48:06
Master TBeholder,

haha... I can certainly appreciate that outlook for sure! My desire to get more information on the Phoenix Prophecies and the Malaugrym was about the relationship between particular Harper's and the Malaugrym. If the Phoenix Prophecies (which did identify the Harpstar Wars) did identify some sort of foreknowledge regarding Elminster, the Harper's in general, and the Malaugrym, then what else would they know? Perhaps one of those prophecies talks about the Blackstaff going full on criminal (according to some ethical systems, not the overly teleological one that he clearly justified his criminal behavior by). If so, did any of the Herald's of Holdfast know about it? If they did, did that lead to that schism between the Harper's and the Herald's?

There is a lot that could be potentially explained by many of those other 7900+ prophecies that have already shed light on a great many important events, and call into question the actions of many leaders and influential people over the years making certain decisions if they knew what was to come.

I've read a great deal of the prophecies, but though I could not find more information about this, it doesn't mean it isn't out there, and I was hoping some of you may have more insight into it. :)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

That being said, I wanted to expound upon your statement that,
quote:
It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.
(22) twenty-two of the most famous/infamous (depending on what side of the fence you find yourself I suppose) auguries identified in the Phoenix Prophecies explained and/or confirmed the nine Ages of Calimshan.

I mean, how much Harpstar Wars have to do with Calimshan?
Or even the the Malaugrym, really. I suppose, they infiltrate and steal there too sometimes, but unless they'd munch someone really important, how significant they can be compared to the rest of local problems?
Plagues, fires, politics, dangerous lunatics, corruption, naval troubles (which calishites mostly bring on themselves), borders, beholders, drow raids, various unpleasant religions, elemental weirdness, and even surface elves... I mean, it's good old Calimshan.

TBeholder Posted - 01 Jun 2019 : 18:24:35
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

That being said, I wanted to expound upon your statement that,
quote:
It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.
(22) twenty-two of the most famous/infamous (depending on what side of the fence you find yourself I suppose) auguries identified in the Phoenix Prophecies explained and/or confirmed the nine Ages of Calimshan.

I mean, how much Harpstar Wars have to do with Calimshan?
Or even the the Malaugrym, really. I suppose, they infiltrate and steal there too sometimes, but unless they'd munch someone really important, how significant they can be compared to the rest of local problems?
Plagues, fires, politics, dangerous lunatics, corruption, naval troubles (which calishites mostly bring on themselves), borders, beholders, drow raids, various unpleasant religions, elemental weirdness, and even surface elves... I mean, it's good old Calimshan.
cpthero2 Posted - 31 May 2019 : 18:58:13
Great Reader Sleyvas,

Bumping back to your request for me to clarify my question and to cite my sources to remove the cryptic nature of my initial post, did you have any insight to my question regarding Nar'ysr at Mount Abbalayat writing a specific prophecy regarding the Maulagrym and the Harpstar Wars?

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering, do we actually have mention of a Phoenix in any canon lore related to the realms itself? I was going to include one in Katashaka for something else, but thought that the term itself might be unusual to the realms itself if they don't actually have references. That being said, I want to say Lathander had some linkage.

cpthero2 Posted - 30 May 2019 : 19:37:48
Master TBeholder,

It is always a privilege to engage in these academic discussions with you! :) That being said, I wanted to expound upon your statement that,
quote:
It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.


Unless I am misunderstanding your statement (and if I am, I ask your humble forgiveness), that statement appears to run contrary to the fact that (22) twenty-two of the most famous/infamous (depending on what side of the fence you find yourself I suppose) auguries identified in the Phoenix Prophecies explained and/or confirmed the nine Ages of Calimshan. In fact, (14) fourteen of the auguries are argued by sages (and perhaps we should argue it more here for posterity and enlightenment) to have come true by 1370 DR. Empires of the Shining Sea, pgs. 6 - 8

As to your point regarding the volumes, you are most certainly correct that there were (7) volumes. Though there is an ability to view all of them, if I recall correctly, not all of them are in one place. Much to the chagrin of the Herald's at Herald's Holdfast, I'm certain...

Again though, if I misunderstood, and went off on a tangent, my apologies.

Best regards as always,



quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.
Either way, the Phoenix Prophecies are what, 7 tomes? There may well be yet another cryptic reference to that, too. Who knows?

cpthero2 Posted - 30 May 2019 : 19:21:57
Great Reader Sleyvas,

Regarding as to whether there is any
quote:
mention of a Phoenix in any canon lore related to the realms itself
, there is in the novel "Tymora's Luck":

quote:
"It's a phoenix! Some trick of Lathander's!" Beshaba gasped. "I warned you the bard's life would be forfeit", she growled to Holly. She turned about and lunged for Joel, grabbing him by his ponytail. "No, Beshaba!" Finder cried out. "He had nothing to do with this. Leave my priest out of it." The phoenix's shadow covered them all. Tymora's Luck, pg. 271


It is at that point that Finder pursues the phoenix, but all to late, as the phoenix escapes in a gate.

Additionally, the "Monster Manual II" from 2002, has an entry on it. Since the Forgotten Realms was the official campaign setting at that time, and the phoenix is listed in it, it does appear to comport with both Ed Greenwood's acknowledgement of the phoenix being in the Realms, and the novel I mentioned above as well.

I love that book so much.

Best regards,



[quote]Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering, do we actually have mention of a Phoenix in any canon lore related to the realms itself? I was going to include one in Katashaka for something else, but thought that the term itself might be unusual to the realms itself if they don't actually have references. That being said, I want to say Lathander had some linkage.

cpthero2 Posted - 30 May 2019 : 18:52:49
Good morning Acolyte Amblecrown,

I very much appreciate the compliment: thank you! :) I've been away for a while and am just getting back to some of the more relaxing, and fun activities, such as being here at Candlekeep! :)

I really feel there is a lot of very deeply connected and important issues that go overlooked and/or unexplored in the annals of the Realms. Exploring those materials, such as the Phoenix Prophecies, is amazingly interesting to me.

Thanks again,



quote:
Originally posted by Darvin_Amblecrown

This a great bit of Realmslore! cpthero2! I was just looking up stuff on the Malaugrym for questions about them in 5e, and this is helpful.

I wonder if they will talk about this in an upcoming Interview with the Old Mage?

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22814&fbclid=IwAR0pdj0gV-RLwXQIFkyoz3ncDrwTUE1yCF_hTdRRQYZlEAf8wbbAV_6wMfE

TBeholder Posted - 19 May 2019 : 03:23:32
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

It doesn't concern Calimshan as much as some other areas.
Either way, the Phoenix Prophecies are what, 7 tomes? There may well be yet another cryptic reference to that, too. Who knows?
AJA Posted - 19 May 2019 : 01:11:54
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That being said, I want to say Lathander had some linkage.

Morningdawn Hall (the temple of Lathander in Shadowdale) is built in the shape of a phoenix. There's also an old Candlekeep scroll on the subject.

EDIT: There is also Ed, of course;
quote:
Originally posted by @TheEdVerse, 11:42 AM - 16 Jul 2018
Replying to @PastorGall
The phoenix is found in the Realms, but they are rare and tend to be in remote wilderland areas.


sleyvas Posted - 19 May 2019 : 00:27:31
Just wondering, do we actually have mention of a Phoenix in any canon lore related to the realms itself? I was going to include one in Katashaka for something else, but thought that the term itself might be unusual to the realms itself if they don't actually have references. That being said, I want to say Lathander had some linkage.
Darvin_Amblecrown Posted - 18 May 2019 : 19:52:45
This a great bit of Realmslore! cpthero2! I was just looking up stuff on the Malaugrym for questions about them in 5e, and this is helpful.

I wonder if they will talk about this in an upcoming Interview with the Old Mage?

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22814&fbclid=IwAR0pdj0gV-RLwXQIFkyoz3ncDrwTUE1yCF_hTdRRQYZlEAf8wbbAV_6wMfE
cpthero2 Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 04:17:34
Great Reader Brimstone,

I am not sure if you are referring to the tree by itself, or possible the entire remaining collection of 7,978 Phoenix Prophecies? If the latter, I would be beyond delighted to see such an epic undertaking considered and acted upon!

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Undarl wasn’t just a malaugrym, he was actually Malays himself. And I recently had the privilege of reading some lore on those shapeshifters which even included a family tree.

— George Krashos


I find that very interesting. Future DM's Guild product, maybe??

cpthero2 Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 04:14:39
Great Reader sleyvas,

In following up to your response to my initial post from earlier, I have more information. So, first, I will identify what body of works I was initially reading "regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies", so that you can have a reference point as to where I am coming from.

Elminster and the Magelords of Athalantar
I was reading an article 'Dragon Magazine #228, called 'The Athalantan Campaign.' pgs. 27-37 That article discusses the nation of Athalantan, and very importantly, the history behind Elminster in a very specific manner. It appears that it is the most exhaustive account of Elminster's early life.

Malaugrym
Additionally, I read 'The Villains Lorebook', pgs. 99-101, as well as Dungeon #206 to refresh myself on these creatures.

The Phoenix Prophecies
As found in The Empires of the Shining Sea, pgs. 6-8, and 85-86.
_________________________________________________________________
My initial question read as:


quote:
Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?


Rephrasing it so that it makes more sense now:

Is anyone aware of a Phoenix Prophecy written by Nar'ysr at Mount Abbalayat (The Phoenix of Calimport, p.6-8, 85-86, The Empires of the Shining Sea), that addresses that Malaugrym would be a world wide foe during the extraordinarily dangerous Harpstar Wars?

Of particular note is the fact that Malaug (the creator of the Malaugrym per Dungeon #206) was posing as Undarl of Athalantar (Dragon #228: The Athalantan Campaign). Undarl/Malaug, as Malaugrym, was known to be:

quote:
His true form (a yuan-ti) was revealed in his battle with Elminster... but this was only the body he possessed on Toril. He was actually a Malaugrym or Shadowmaster (of whom more is told in the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy).


Great Reader sleyvas: thank you for asking me to clarify the question I was driving at. I do want to make sure I am getting my point across well. If something is off again, please do let me know if you think I need to clarify, etc., if you feel so inclined.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Fellow Scribes,

I just ran across something that was a bit crazy to me: old history regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies.

I was reading a bit and I came across some information regarding Elminster, when he was still in his late 20's, and a fugitive/outlaw from Athalantar when his parents were murdered. Now, I know his parents were murdered proximate to 240 DR, and the future Royal Mage of Athalantar, Undorl, was responsible for it, but turned out to be a Malaugrym in disguise. Now, I was aware of that fact, but something dawned on me as I was considering it: the Phoenix Prophecies.

In light of the fact that The Great Sage would have a rather epic situation with the Malaugrym as we all know centuries later, it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

Thank you in advance and best regards,






Please take this in the vein its intended. Quotes or this isn't useful. You're expecting people to read your mind about what you have read when there are literally millions of pages of D&D material out there. Don't think you're the only one, as we have several other sages who like to drop cryptic phrases, and I admit to doing it myself. But if you want to build a conversation, you have to really lay out what you're talking about. If you're trying to have us help you tie two and two together... What's in the Phoenix Prophecies that you want us to read.


Brimstone Posted - 27 Sep 2018 : 02:07:59
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Undarl wasn’t just a malaugrym, he was actually Malays himself. And I recently had the privilege of reading some lore on those shapeshifters which even included a family tree.

— George Krashos


I find that very interesting. Future DM's Guild product, maybe??
cpthero2 Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 15:40:31
Great Reader sleyvas,

I appreciate the comment. In examining my post, I think I can see where it seemed cryptic. That certainly wasn't intended. I figured I'd leave what I felt was extraneous information out. I'll get back to those documents I was looking at, get those back in here and open this back up to more examination.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Fellow Scribes,

I just ran across something that was a bit crazy to me: old history regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies.

I was reading a bit and I came across some information regarding Elminster, when he was still in his late 20's, and a fugitive/outlaw from Athalantar when his parents were murdered. Now, I know his parents were murdered proximate to 240 DR, and the future Royal Mage of Athalantar, Undorl, was responsible for it, but turned out to be a Malaugrym in disguise. Now, I was aware of that fact, but something dawned on me as I was considering it: the Phoenix Prophecies.

In light of the fact that The Great Sage would have a rather epic situation with the Malaugrym as we all know centuries later, it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

Thank you in advance and best regards,






Please take this in the vein its intended. Quotes or this isn't useful. You're expecting people to read your mind about what you have read when there are literally millions of pages of D&D material out there. Don't think you're the only one, as we have several other sages who like to drop cryptic phrases, and I admit to doing it myself. But if you want to build a conversation, you have to really lay out what you're talking about. If you're trying to have us help you tie two and two together... What's in the Phoenix Prophecies that you want us to read.


sleyvas Posted - 26 Sep 2018 : 13:43:19
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Fellow Scribes,

I just ran across something that was a bit crazy to me: old history regarding Elminster, Malaugrym, the Magelords of Athalantar, and the Phoenix Prophecies.

I was reading a bit and I came across some information regarding Elminster, when he was still in his late 20's, and a fugitive/outlaw from Athalantar when his parents were murdered. Now, I know his parents were murdered proximate to 240 DR, and the future Royal Mage of Athalantar, Undorl, was responsible for it, but turned out to be a Malaugrym in disguise. Now, I was aware of that fact, but something dawned on me as I was considering it: the Phoenix Prophecies.

In light of the fact that The Great Sage would have a rather epic situation with the Malaugrym as we all know centuries later, it strikes me as unusual that there is no reference to this situation in any of the other 7,978 prophecies. That is, unless I am unaware of one regarding that. So, on to my question.

Does anyone know of any identification as to the future Harpstar Wars between Elminster, the Harpers in general, and the Malaugrym?

Thank you in advance and best regards,






Please take this in the vein its intended. Quotes or this isn't useful. You're expecting people to read your mind about what you have read when there are literally millions of pages of D&D material out there. Don't think you're the only one, as we have several other sages who like to drop cryptic phrases, and I admit to doing it myself. But if you want to build a conversation, you have to really lay out what you're talking about. If you're trying to have us help you tie two and two together... What's in the Phoenix Prophecies that you want us to read.

Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2020 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000