Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Interloping Deities and the Realmspace

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert Email Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]
Rolling Eyes [8|] Confused [?!:] Help [?:] King [3|:]
Laughing [:OD] What [W] Oooohh [:H] Down [:E]

  Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
    

T O P I C    R E V I E W
Sesserdrix Posted - 08 Sep 2018 : 23:08:12
Howdy all,

Thanks for the thorough answers to my last question! I have a couple more about a slightly different subject that would help me get a better understanding of Realmspace.

How does it work with Ao's rules and interloping gods? Like Tharizdun came from Oerth, meaning that at least in FR lore, the existence of Oerth is a thing, right? But Ao isn't managing Greyspace, so in the case of Tharizdun being an interloping deity... Does Ao give them a pass? Or are they violating the system?

How about a god like Corellon? Does he count as an interloper into Realmspace or a native? I remember reading that Eilistraee was banished from the Planes by Ao during the Time of Troubles which leads me to believe that the Seldarine are considered under Ao's 'jurisdiction' if you will. So if they counted as interloping, it would suggest Ao still has power over those. Or did Corellon spawn from Shar and Selune like the rest and just broke into his own pantheon? Honestly I don't have a firm grasp of Corellon's origins in FR. Did the Untheric and Mulhorandi Pantheons do the same?


I've got a pretty good grasp of the main Faerunian pantheon and their place in this ecosystem that Ao seems to be balancing, I think, but it is when moving into other pantheons that I start running into some of these confusing situations!

Thanks all!
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
sleyvas Posted - 15 Sep 2018 : 14:47:41
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.



I don't agree. The only two overpowers we know of don't match any of the other gods in character or mechanics. IMO, seeing Ptah, or Io, or other previous "normal" deities as an overpower represents significant "power creep," in that essentially people are saying "we want these individual deities to be powerful, but calling them a greater god and having them match the power levels of Zeus or Ra or whoever doesn't feel powerful enough."

I believe Overpowers should be seen as aloof administrators, and almost completely inscrutable to mortals, and mostly inscrutable to the gods themselves, while being very powerful in some regards (allowing/disallowing gods, for example), but completely powerless in others (granting spells for example). That we don't know who the overpowers of most other crystal spheres are makes me feel this matches the lore best.

Jeff



Agreed. As I was saying before, perhaps Ptah and Celestian should be looked at as another "kind" of being that can issue divine power in a way similar to a god. Essentially, when you look at these other "kinds" of beings they are powers in relation to a certain "planar structure". Primordials GENERALLY have ties to the elemental planes. Demon and Devils who can extend divine power are related to the nine hells and the abyss. Powers of Shadow obviously have ties to the shadowfell and other "shadow" planes. Archfey have ties to the feywild and other "fey" planes like Faerie. "Spirit" beings have ties to the Spirit World (which opens up an interesting can of worms with Kara-Tur). Then there's far realms powers and beings that have transitioned to being vestiges. Perhaps Ptah and Celestian somehow or other actually draw power from the Phlogiston itself as something akin to a "primordial" of the flow.
TBeholder Posted - 15 Sep 2018 : 12:13:35
There certainly are powers that "stepped aside" of the usual hierarchy, too (like Anubis).
But these two fall under "it's directly related to the primary part of their portfolio".
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Realmspace can't be an (obvious) exception since it is one of the major published spheres; the Spelljammer material would have mentioned any notable exceptions with the sphere. Of course, the published material focuses on Wildspace rather than the planets themselves, which allows for flexibility with how things operate on Toril itself.

Whether they have access because they always do, or "on contract" with Ao like everyone else would make any difference only in context of what happened in spelljamming community of Realmspace during ToT. Which was never touched, AFAIK.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 15 Sep 2018 : 04:17:04
I dunno, with only a couple of overpowers to look at, neither one of which is overly well-defined, we're reduced to saying "this one is not like these other two." And while you could certainly argue, based on that, that Ptah is not an overpower, I'm thinking that perhaps our definition of overpower is overly restrictive -- maybe Ao is the overpower that's the oddball, not Ptah.

Not saying that I think Ptah is an overpower; I'm saying that we have an awfully small sample size for what overpowers are like. It's not inconceivable that overpowers could fit into different categories, each very different than the others, with only a certain level of power as the common denominator.
AuldDragon Posted - 15 Sep 2018 : 01:14:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.



I don't agree. The only two overpowers we know of don't match any of the other gods in character or mechanics. IMO, seeing Ptah, or Io, or other previous "normal" deities as an overpower represents significant "power creep," in that essentially people are saying "we want these individual deities to be powerful, but calling them a greater god and having them match the power levels of Zeus or Ra or whoever doesn't feel powerful enough."

I believe Overpowers should be seen as aloof administrators, and almost completely inscrutable to mortals, and mostly inscrutable to the gods themselves, while being very powerful in some regards (allowing/disallowing gods, for example), but completely powerless in others (granting spells for example). That we don't know who the overpowers of most other crystal spheres are makes me feel this matches the lore best.

Jeff
sleyvas Posted - 15 Sep 2018 : 00:48:13
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.

And, if you accept 4E canon, then Mystra must also be an overgod ... how else could her death have consequences spanning worlds across the the entire D&D cosmos? Quite a grand feat for a mere "Greater Goddess" supposedly born in and of and for the Realms. I mean, the death of Corellon, for example, would touch many worlds - every world populated by elves or fey - and still not have as much cosmic scope as the 4E Spellplague.

(I keep things simple for myself by rejecting 4E canon, lol.)



If one wanted to accept that the confluence of the changes by Vecna a little over a decade prior were "rolling" through the "multiverse" still (because he had in theory split out the links of the prime planes to the outer planes, while Ao himself had split out Abeir and Toril into a prime with a crystal sphere and something else), and that Mystra provided enough "stability" that the crystal sphere was "holding this off"... the spellplague might be considered the confluence of many other changes rolling into one.
sleyvas Posted - 15 Sep 2018 : 00:34:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.

And, if you accept 4E canon, then Mystra must also be an overgod ... how else could her death have consequences spanning worlds across the the entire D&D cosmos? Quite a grand feat for a mere "Greater Goddess" supposedly born in and of and for the Realms. I mean, the death of Corellon, for example, would touch many worlds - every world populated by elves or fey - and still not have as much cosmic scope as the 4E Spellplague.

(I keep things simple for myself by rejecting 4E canon, lol.)



If one wanted to accept that the confluence of the changes by Vecna a little over a decade prior were "rolling" through the "multiverse" still (because he had in theory split out the links of the prime planes to the outer planes, while Ao himself had split out Abeir and Toril into a prime with a crystal sphere and something else), and that Mystra provided enough "stability" that the crystal sphere was "holding this off"... the spellplague might be considered the confluence of many other changes rolling into one.
Ayrik Posted - 14 Sep 2018 : 14:45:14
Krashos and Shemmy have suggested Ptah is an overgod. Based on the abilities of Ptah (and his followers) described within Spelljammer material. Not "canon" but good enough authority for me.

And, if you accept 4E canon, then Mystra must also be an overgod ... how else could her death have consequences spanning worlds across the the entire D&D cosmos? Quite a grand feat for a mere "Greater Goddess" supposedly born in and of and for the Realms. I mean, the death of Corellon, for example, would touch many worlds - every world populated by elves or fey - and still not have as much cosmic scope as the 4E Spellplague.

(I keep things simple for myself by rejecting 4E canon, lol.)
sleyvas Posted - 14 Sep 2018 : 14:04:20
It kind of makes me wonder if Ptah and Celestian are a "different kind" of "god". Much as how we have demons and devils, Archfey, Primordials, Powers of Shadow, Vestiges, etc... that grant divine power "like a god".
LordofBones Posted - 14 Sep 2018 : 02:28:38
Notably, Celestian was involved with trying to smuggle Waukeen's avatar away, though he refused to get further involved and annoy AO.
AuldDragon Posted - 14 Sep 2018 : 01:39:15
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Ptah and Celestian are specifically accessible from any sphere by their nature. In Realmspace they may be an exception.
But even if not? They had some divine essence cut off as "avatars", but probably waited it out away from Toril. Being the only ones who would start in wildspace, and at peace with each other, their avatars won't have serious problems, unlike the groundling gods.



The clergies of Ptah and Celestian say it is their nature. Others point out that there could be other reasons (Ptah's church is very old, and they could have established their faith almost everywhere, and Celestian's church encourages actively wandering everywhere and have a strong connection with the Seekers, allowing them to have established themselves everywhere in short order, for example). In other words, it is the classic case of "this is what people believe to be true but we have left you, the DM, wiggle room to do something different or throw in a surprise for the players."

Realmspace can't be an (obvious) exception since it is one of the major published spheres; the Spelljammer material would have mentioned any notable exceptions with the sphere. Of course, the published material focuses on Wildspace rather than the planets themselves, which allows for flexibility with how things operate on Toril itself.

Jeff
TBeholder Posted - 13 Sep 2018 : 22:21:44
But what's the problem?
Normally, a deity can provide divine magic if a sphere provides certain minimum of worship necessary to ensure access.
There's no reason why in Realmspace it can't be the same plus requirement of a "contract" with Ao.

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Given that Krynnspace is detailed, and not listed as exceptions to "Ptah and Celestian are present eveywhere," it is reasonable to conclude that it is possible for the Seldarine to have access to the sphere (but not the planet of Krynn), although it is just as possible the good deities grant spells to foreign elves so long as they don't proselytize.

Ptah and Celestian are specifically accessible from any sphere by their nature. In Realmspace they may be an exception.
But even if not? They had some divine essence cut off as "avatars", but probably waited it out away from Toril. Being the only ones who would start in wildspace, and at peace with each other, their avatars won't have serious problems, unlike the groundling gods.

The Seldarine are merely widespread on their own and have allies for extra coverage.
AuldDragon Posted - 13 Sep 2018 : 17:36:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, look at Krynn... elven deities aren't there. Eberron didn't have them. Athas didn't have them. Birthright didn't have the standard elven pantheon either (though they had Moradin in the world), and those elves are noted as not worshipping deities. Mystara had other elven deities. And that's just the big campaign settings... we don't know about smaller places like Jakandor, Ghostwalk, etc... that never got a whole world type explanation. It may actually be that the Seldarine are only found in Greyspace, Realmspace, and maybe a few other crystal spheres.



The planets themselves not having the deities isn't conclusive; Ptah has no sway on Toril itself for example, nor does Celestian. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't gain spells though, or that the deities aren't found in the Crystal Sphere itself. Many of those campaign settings you mentioned don't have canonical crystal spheres, so we don't have enough information to really judge them.

Given that Krynnspace is detailed, and not listed as exceptions to "Ptah and Celestian are present eveywhere," it is reasonable to conclude that it is possible for the Seldarine to have access to the sphere (but not the planet of Krynn), although it is just as possible the good deities grant spells to foreign elves so long as they don't proselytize.

Unfortunately, it is one of the many elements Spelljammer didn't detail well enough.

Jeff
Ayrik Posted - 13 Sep 2018 : 14:17:12
Tyr has been around for ages, along with those who worship Tyr (under different names). He's a well-established facet of the Realms, a pillar of the Faerunian mythos.

My point is only that Tyr wasn't originally made in and for the Realms, he's not one of Ao's creations. He might (or might not) have been part of Ao's grand plans all along. But he came from somewhere else. And his arrival spilled much blood. The literature we have always describes strife and discord among established Realms deities (and catastrophic fallout in the Realms) whenever a new (or old) member attempts to (re)join their divine ranks and elbow into the balance of portfolios and powers - it's reasonable to expect that these deities always behaved that way before (even when Tyr arrived), even if we have no records of it, unless Ao directly imposed himself and his rules upon them.
sleyvas Posted - 13 Sep 2018 : 13:16:27
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The topic has drifted.

Planescape has its own rules for defining where deities have power, and where they don't, and why. So does Spelljammer, although in the context of crystal spheres (and places between them) instead of planes.

And the Realms has its own rules for defining which deities are in charge of which things, and how they interact, and why. A big jumbled mess after five editions of Realmslore (and five editions of game rules by which they abide). In the end there is always the same choice: pick an edition and strictly adhere to working within it, or pick things you like from anywhere you like and work out for yourself how/why they co-exist.

The novel Tymora's Luck describes an interloping deity from Krynn, along with the responses of deities from Faerun.

Another oft-given example is Tyr, basically an "invader" from some Norse world ... he simply arrived at the front of a celestial army and claimed (seized, invented, installed) his divine station in the Realms.

A few other Ao-Approved Realms deities/powers/entities have foreign origins as well. There's not "many" examples but there are enough to suggest that each godly incursion is a unique event handled in a unique fashion and ending in unique consequences.



On Tyr specifically, I honestly don't think he's as brand new to the realms as its made out to be. I think the northmen that are found elsewhere in the realms have him.... but that's my own belief. I also think the Rus had him. I think his previous sources are correct in that he is an interloper, but that his interloping came much much earlier and in different parts of the world. But, I also know that that's very much non-canon.
BadLuckBugbear Posted - 13 Sep 2018 : 02:54:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The topic has drifted.

Planescape has its own rules for defining where deities have power, and where they don't, and why. So does Spelljammer, although in the context of crystal spheres (and places between them) instead of planes.

And the Realms has its own rules for defining which deities are in charge of which things, and how they interact, and why. A big jumbled mess after five editions of Realmslore (and five editions of game rules by which they abide). In the end there is always the same choice: pick an edition and strictly adhere to working within it, or pick things you like from anywhere you like and work out for yourself how/why they co-exist.

The novel Tymora's Luck describes an interloping deity from Krynn, along with the responses of deities from Faerun.

Another oft-given example is Tyr, basically an "invader" from some Norse world ... he simply arrived at the front of a celestial army and claimed (seized, invented, installed) his divine station in the Realms.

A few other Ao-Approved Realms deities/powers/entities have foreign origins as well. There's not "many" examples but there are enough to suggest that each godly incursion is a unique event handled in a unique fashion and ending in unique consequences.



True.

I'm going to delete some of my posts to help get it back on track.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 13 Sep 2018 : 02:33:07
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear



Maybe they just decided to cancel those campaigns, in effect?

Think about it this way: both Spelljammer and Planescape represented changes to established cosmology.
The center of Concordant Opposition was altered in PS to introduce Sigil. That's a significant change.


Sigil is visible from the Outlands, but it's physically impossible to reach -- so Sigil is likely its own plane.

I'd not call adding a city to be a significant change, especially when that city may not even be there. (Unless, of course, there was prior lore saying the center of the plane of Concordant Opposition was empty)

Even if it was a change, adding one city in one place, in all of the planes of existence, isn't significant. Some planes are infinite -- even a large city is nothing compared to infinity.

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear


But I'd argue SJ made bigger changes, because it altered the physics and structure of the Prime Material Plane, and brought separate campaign worlds together in one plane, instead of leaving them as alternate Primes or simply standalone worlds.


It didn't alter physics -- the physics of space travel was simply not previously explored. And with each sphere having its own rules, I see no reason not to assume that each campaign world is an alternate Prime (or another of the infinite layers of the Prime, which is my theory). Remember, all planar connections were cut off in the Flow, which goes a long way towards saying that each sphere is its own Prime (or layer of the Prime).

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

I'm not sure how accurate it is, but one idea that's often kicked around about the failure of TSR is that TSR created too many campaign settings. By doing so it committed resources to niche product lines (all campaign settings are niche)and fractured its own market.



This I have heard before. Though with gaming being more popular and closer to mainstream, I'd think that such a strategy would be more likely to succeed now, as opposed to how it was back in the waning days of TSR.
Ayrik Posted - 13 Sep 2018 : 01:56:38
The topic has drifted.

Planescape has its own rules for defining where deities have power, and where they don't, and why. So does Spelljammer, although in the context of crystal spheres (and places between them) instead of planes.

And the Realms has its own rules for defining which deities are in charge of which things, and how they interact, and why. A big jumbled mess after five editions of Realmslore (and five editions of game rules by which they abide). In the end there is always the same choice: pick an edition and strictly adhere to working within it, or pick things you like from anywhere you like and work out for yourself how/why they co-exist.

The novel Tymora's Luck describes an interloping deity from Krynn, along with the responses of deities from Faerun.

Another oft-given example is Tyr, basically an "invader" from some Norse world ... he simply arrived at the front of a celestial army and claimed (seized, invented, installed) his divine station in the Realms.

A few other Ao-Approved Realms deities/powers/entities have foreign origins as well. There's not "many" examples but there are enough to suggest that each godly incursion is a unique event handled in a unique fashion and ending in unique consequences.
Ayrik Posted - 12 Sep 2018 : 20:51:11
Transition period aside, TSR was a non-entity while WotC was firmly at the helm on 3E and all subsequent lore. It's certainly WotC's fault for making no effort to ensure WotC's products were plausibly consistent or compatible with all that came before. WotC's conspicuous lack of any effort to integrate Planescape or Spelljammer lore into their products after all these years has basically voiced their opinion of it all quite plainly.
sleyvas Posted - 12 Sep 2018 : 12:43:58
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

More emphasis on one setting means less on another ... it's fair enough, even rewarding, to focus on a more immersive Realms with less thought to what goes on elsewhere.

But yeah, WotC has done a terrible job of coordinating their own "canon", poor workmanship always eventually shows on shoddy products. That being said ... it is what it is, and it's up to individual GMs/authors to pick and choose or clean up the mess in their own Realms, most people eventually come to that realization and stop buying "canon" after enough inconsistencies and disappointments have piled up. 2E Planescape is best served in 2E Planescape rules, 3E Realms is best served in 3E Realms rules, they were never really intended to be parts of the "same" game.



Another thing to bear in mind is that when all that happened, it wasn't technically WotC yet. It was the whole nebulous TSR to WotC transition with many of the fans even unaware exactly of what was going on from a company standpoint. I can understand WHY it happened kind of the way it did, and actually, given all that, I'm impressed with what that staff came up with for 3e and its transition. What saddens me is that there was no company transition (that I'm aware of for 4e).
Ayrik Posted - 12 Sep 2018 : 08:58:14
More emphasis on one setting means less on another ... it's fair enough, even rewarding, to focus on a more immersive Realms with less thought to what goes on elsewhere.

But yeah, WotC has done a terrible job of coordinating their own "canon", poor workmanship always eventually shows on shoddy products. That being said ... it is what it is, and it's up to individual GMs/authors to pick and choose or clean up the mess in their own Realms, most people eventually come to that realization and stop buying "canon" after enough inconsistencies and disappointments have piled up. 2E Planescape is best served in 2E Planescape rules, 3E Realms is best served in 3E Realms rules, they were never really intended to be parts of the "same" game.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 22:15:54
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.



I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.

So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been.



Just ditch the 'official' stuff, then. What's authoritative is whatever the DM says is the ways things are in the gameworld, not the latest thing put out by a publisher.

Problem solved, neh?



The issue is that the publisher should not be creating problems by ignoring and willfully changing prior lore. I like published game settings because there are so many more and better ideas than I can come up with on my own, and one of the things that first drew me to the Realms was the (at the time) relatively tight continuity.

Basically, I don't want to have to fix things that shouldn't have been broken.
BadLuckBugbear Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 21:01:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.



I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.

So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been.



Just ditch the 'official' stuff, then. What's authoritative is whatever the DM says is the ways things are in the gameworld, not the latest thing put out by a publisher.

Problem solved, neh?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 20:11:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.



I would disagree. They basically said "things changed" in a Planescape supplement -- but the 3E Realms was divorced from Planescape, and had "always" been that way.

So a 2E Planescape module couldn't explain planar changes in the post-2E Realms, because the official stance was that the post-2E FR planar structure was the way it had always been.
sleyvas Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 18:50:35
Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.
sleyvas Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 18:32:55
Yeah, but the thing is some of that stuff was written as subjective to the speaker's viewpoint. The other stuff (in that first response) was written in the form of "this is what happened" for DM's and meant to be for the game in its entirety. That being said, as with anything, ignore what you want, swallow what you want... but we can say that they DID try to explain away the planar and other changes using this mechanism.
Ayrik Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 16:14:04
(Technically a cambion is half-human, half-devil ... and Planescape was never brought up to 3E rules which confuse the very-important-in-Planescape distinctions between devils and demons and fiends ... but details about one individual don't really change anything important in the bigger scene, lol.)

Although every big religion proclaims some sort of "One" "True" Godhead who reigns supreme over all others. So I don't read anything significant from that Planescape story, it's really only meaningful if it's supported by other stories coming from other bias. Especially since Vecna has a lot going for him but in the end he never really amounted to much on a cosmic stage crowded by other powers. Ao's power in the Realms is apparently supreme ... just as the Lady of Pain's power in Sigil or Anubis's power in the Astral, etc ... and it seems highly unlikely any of them would ever leave their power bases to subject themselves to other powers ... so maybe Vecna really is (or could be) The Big Deal in Greyhawk or some other realm.
sleyvas Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 14:37:17
By the way in that adventure, there's also a reference to the realms in which its said that a cambion follower of Vecna who was formerly a leader of the Doomguard Faction of Sigil (and who apparently has a golden eye, hand, right arm, and right leg, and says

The man giving the sermon is not a man at all. He is a cambion (half human, half demon). His name is Ely Cromlich, and he once served as a leader of the Doomguard Faction in Sigil. Though slain in the Faction War, Cromlich was raised back to life by Vecna because of his secret devotion to the Whispered One. He, too, possesses a golden left hand and eye, but he also has an entire golden right arm and right leg.

If left interrupted, Ely sermonizes hour after hour in a Stalinesque manner, expounding on Vecna’s plans for the rearrangement of the multiverse, where even Ao will hold a subordinate position to the one true god.

Should heroes with relics physically enter this chamber or make themselves visible, Vecna immediately sees the heroes with his purely physical senses. When Vecna finally does sense the heroes, either by sight, or in the aftermath of attack on Ely and his flock, Vecna also reveals himself.

sleyvas Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 14:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear



Was it declared 'Will of Ao' or was the reason just never even addressed?




Like the majority of the changes in 3E, if it got any attention at all from WotC, it was "it's always been this way -- just no one knew about it!"



No, there was a reason for the change in the cosmology given, and it was almost a copy of something they used later. It was at the very end of 2nd edition. Though it is a bit obscure, its basically hinted that Vecna was pursuing some kind of powerful ritual in... I think... Die Vecna Die! Anyway, he did some kind of ritual that basically fractures reality from within Sigil. Consequently, this must mean (and I say this without rereading that adventure from 20 years ago) that Vecna was somehow able to oppose the Lady of Pain's restrictions on deities entering Sigil.

from the wiki of Vecna
Vecna did not stay gone forever, and rose as a demigod of magic and secrets in the world of Greyhawk. In 581 CY, his cult helped set events in motion that would have granted him the power of a greater god, but the plan was ultimately foiled. After these events, Vecna ended up imprisoned in the demiplane of Ravenloft, but broke free again later, emerging with the power of a greater god, after absorbing the power of Iuz. He then broke free into the city of Sigil, where he came perilously close to rearranging all existence to his whims. (Vecna's multiverse shattering campaign in Sigil is used as an in-universe way to explain the differences between the 2nd and 3rd editions of Dungeons & Dragons.) When Vecna was ejected from Sigil by a party of adventurers, Iuz was freed and Vecna returned to Oerth greatly reduced in power, though still a lesser god.


This is from the end of Die Vecna Die
Vecna has successfully tested Sigil's wards, showing a way for other power-mad deities to find entry. Thus, the Lady of Pain, a confidant or perhaps even peer to the Serpent, speaks in the Language
Primeval (the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren, in which the three words of Creation Once Spoken were uttered). Uttering her words, while standing in the crux of the multiverse known as Sigil, she reorders reality. Uttering her words, the only words spoken by her in the last several millennia, she shores up Sigil’s wards against entry by deities who attempt to ”cheat” as Vecna did.

Uttering her words, she attempts to shore up the sum of all creation, also called superspace. Even with Vecna’s removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain
attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna’s time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased.

Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs ”aground” on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag
Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane.

The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn’t yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed, and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months.

However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever bethe same again.


Secondarily, Szass Tam's ritual to "remodel the world" mirrors this action by Vecna for those that look into both things. In theory neither is "instantaneous" either, as the repercussions of the spellplague may have been a kickoff a few years later from some power Vecna release, and the repercussions of the Sundering may have been a kickoff a few years later of the actions of Tam and Malark Springhill.

IRONICALLY, if one wants to look at it this way... Vecna's action IN GAME are from around 1371 DR (I think this is the end of 2nd edition). Then sometime AROUND 1371 to maybe 1374 presumably, Zulkir of Alteration, Druxus Rhym finds the "Tome of Fastrin the Delver" which reveals the ritual that Szass Tam is later to try and which kicks off the Thayan civil war in 1375 DR.

Along these lines Vecna held the portfolios of "Destructive and Evil Secrets, Magic, Hidden Knowledge, Intrigue" within greyspace.... things which would very much interest Talos, Shar, Leira, Mask, and Mystra (and of course their servants)... It should be noted that Vecna's performing of his ritual did have planar repercussions BUT they did not make him stronger. In fact, he was no longer a greater power in 3rd edition, so it actually lessened him in power.
The Masked Mage Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 07:34:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-The different rules and editorial mandates that were put in place during different editions make keeping track of this a complete mess. I stopped playing/following when 4e came about, but before hand it was basically like bloodtide said: in 1e/2e, everything was connected and in 3e, everything was separated. Except that led to a problem in that outside stuff still very much existed and influenced the Forgotten Realms, so in a way, 3e caused there to be multiple dimensions, if you will: the "actual" Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms-contained Greyhawk; the "actual" Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms-contained Dragonlance; the "actual" Ravenloft and the Forgotten Realms-contained Ravenloft.

-All in all, I think the 1e/2e way of thinking about it makes the most sense. 3e unnecessarily convoluted things, and 4e/5e probably exacerbated that.



Agreed. There was absolutely no need to revamp the planes after 2E, and doing so broke a hell of a lot of prior lore.

I've seen some other planar set-ups, for other settings, and I've seen the various ones the Realms has been a part of. And I think the Great Wheel is the best of all the arrangements. That's not to say I'd not happily lift from other settings -- Paizo has some great material on some of the planar inhabitants, and there are some 3rd party planes that are great -- but nothing beats the Great Wheel, for me.




I explain away the changes using Planescape. The idea behind the books of Planescape was that information was 2nd hand (very much like the Forgotten Realms). Planar explorers would report what they know about the planes in a matter of fact manner.

3rd Ed sources that seem contradictory are not - they are just the written cosmology of a NON-PLANAR realms scholar. The whole view of the universe was constructed by a scribe reading over dusty old tomes instead of seeing them. As such, 2nd Ed cosmology is 2nd hand while 3rd E is 3rd or 4th hand. :)

Loophole found :)
BadLuckBugbear Posted - 11 Sep 2018 : 06:25:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear



Was it declared 'Will of Ao' or was the reason just never even addressed?




Like the majority of the changes in 3E, if it got any attention at all from WotC, it was "it's always been this way -- just no one knew about it!"



For things related to the differences in rules mechanics between 2e and 3E, like race and class restrictions and rules, that approach seems fine.

For major changes to cosmology that aren't driven by a rule changes?
Nope.

But what actual effect did it have on the printed content of 3E materials?
Are we talking about a page or two of new cosmology that can easily be ignored, or a long chapter full of material that's basically useless to a DM using the older cosmology?

Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000