| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 19 Jul 2018 : 08:53:28
Several NPCs in my campaign, set for the moment in Unthalass, have an innate ability to cast Animate Dead once or more per day and/or are likely to cast it as a spell daily. Two of them are Ak'Chazar rakshasa (Animate Dead 3/day at 20th lvl; control pool 80 HD) and the third is Gula bit Kiqiluttu (Animate Dead as spell, 19th CL arcane, 14th CL divine; control pool 246 HD; doubled to 492 HD for Necklace of Undead Mastery).
All three maintain a position in mortal society that makes it impractical to surround themselves with rotting corpses strutting around. Nevertheless, it's a waste of resources not to be able to call upon a defence force of unintelligent undead if the need should arise.
I want each of them to have a preference in the article of unintelligent undead that serves to distinguish them from each other.
Gula will favour expertly embalmed corpses raised as zombies, her extensive knowledge of thanatology serving to make more effective undead (equivalent in D&D terms to Corpsecrafter and similar Feats). She may also inscribe cuneiform glyphs on the skin of such undead, to give them special abilities. She'll store them in one or more secret rooms when not in use, where they'll have arms available.
Her apprentice, Ashlultum, is also an expert mortician and her particular specialization is skeletons. She has a way of removing the flesh from the bones and immersing the result so that the bones are stronger and move with preternatural agility and speed. I'd welcome any suggestions for the aesthetic of skeletons so treated, i.e. if they take on a copper tone or some other superficial point of apperance. Also, I'd like suggestions on how they could best be 'packed' into a a small area so that they take up as little space as possible, but are still able to 'unpack' quickly to respond to threats, when given the command.
Abhisyanta, one of the Ak'Chazar rakshasa, has taken on the identity of a Gala priest at the Mortuary Temple just outside the city walls of Unthalass. This gives him access to an unending stream of fresh (and not so fresh) corpses, as well as providing him with an environment where the aroma of eau de mort is unremarkable. I imagine that he'll be an enthusiastic experimenter with various funerary practises and forms of undeath.
Ghanashyam, the other Ak'Chazar rakshasa, however, is living as a wealthy merchant of Durpari ancestry. He enjoys personal comforts and beautiful surroundings. I don't think mere skeletons and zombies would suit his tastefully appointed villa in a nice neighbourhood of Unthalass.
Unlike Gula, her apprentices or Abhisyanta, Ghanashyam is not an expert embalmer or mortician. They all have what in D&D terms would be Feats and/or class abilities to enhance their preparation of bodies and creation of corporeal undead, but Ghanashyam has no interest in studying such things. He has a tremendously powerful innate connection to death and necromancy, allowing him to create and control undead better than most necromancers ever learn, but he'd prefer that other people perform the actual labour involved with procuring and preparing dead bodies.
I'm looking for ideas on how he'd use his Animate Dead ability to control 80 HD of something that doesn't smell and, ideally, is stylish and classy. One thing I've been contemplating are skeletal cats, perhaps intermixed with the skeletons of some other, larger predatory animals, but I'd welcome other suggestions.
How to use Ghanashyam's Animate Dead ability without being crass? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Jul 2018 : 02:14:03
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
If you want to armour them just give them the old bracers and rings that you have lying around or have replaced. +1 - +3 rings cloaks and bracers of protection. Heavy crossbows with bolts enhanced with extra piercing. To fight them others will shoot back at them and your skeletons and such are resistant to piercing damage already.
1/2 - 1 HD skeletons with heavy crossbows do as much damage as 10 HD skeletons with heavy crossbows. You can put them in a crows nest up top a 30-50 foot post, don't have to feed them, don't worry about sleep and fill the crows nest with quarrels.
Or if you really want to make it interesting make their arm bones into wand or rods that fire off various spells. Fireball or lightning bolt or magic missile or web or grease spells.
A stinking cloud is a great spell for a skeleton hoard to use.
Skeletons in crows nests can also throw oil and acid and various other 'grenades'.
Some of that is more useful for the black sails of the Pirates of Alkoth than for a secret necromancer who lives in an occupied city and makes her living as a proprietress of opium dens, a seller of charms, philtres and alchemical compounds and an information broker. Gula is a respected figure in Unthalass's underworld, but most consider her a well-connected, business-savvy herbalist and wise woman, not someone who'd muster a private army.
She can muster a private army, of course, but ironically, heavy draw weight military crossbows, imported from foreign nations with more advanced steelcraft and more efficient industry than the Old Empires, would be much more expensive, difficult and dangerous for her to acquire than even the corpses of exceptional people, suitable for creating powerful undead.
Of course, such powerful undead might very well be modified with magic. She particularly values magic that will allow her undead servitors to be stored or concealed discreetly, yet deployed quickly, as well as magic that allows them to be subtle in their work, whether that is as servants, guards, kidnappers, enforcers or assassins.
Ghanashyam, the Ak'Chazar rakshasa, is also living as a supposedly inoffensive mortal in the Untheri society of occupied Unthalass. Under Mulhorandi martial law, he is not even allowed armed house guards for his personal protection, though as with many of the wealthier inhabitants of Unthalass, he is flouting that edict within his own household, trusting that the Mulhorandi garrison have other concerns at the moment. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 21:58:54
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
not specifically realmslore, but there's been a lot of third party things where like the skeleton becomes one undead, the skin another, and the spirit another... all from one corpse.
I've seen undead types that are just the skin and, of course, spectres are incorporeal spirits that rise from the corpse, leaving it behind. But I don't recall seeing it specifically stated anywhere that all three can be made from the same corpse. Do you recall any source specifically saying that?
On one hand, it's efficient and thrifty. 'At Karallu, we use every part of the body!
On the other, I've always considered typical spells that create undead, even corporeal types, to work by trapping some part of the soul into the corporeal body. This is, indeed, why animating dead bodies is universally considered horrifying and evil, as it prevents the person whose body was animated from going to their natural afterlife.
And I'm concerned that by making a spectre or shadow from the soul of a person, it doesn't leave anything for Animate Dead to trap in the corpse to make a corporeal undead.
That being said, I'd still allow the corpse to be used as raw materials, either as part of an undead type that requires a multiple corpses, or for creating a type of undead that traps a minor spirit in it, but that kind of magic would usually be more powerful than Animate Dead, at least in my view.
Again, in third party, yes. There was sword and sorcery product... maybe one of the tome of horrors? I just remember it because it specifically called out that they were making 3 undead from one corpse. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 14:49:36
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
good points. Imbue undead with spell ability from 2nd edition was a VERY dangerous spell if used correctly. Various other cloud type effects, such as cloudkill and wall of force (or similar effects) combined with spells to prevent magical transport were especially deadly in second edition. Less so in third, but still very dangerous. When released from skeletal/zombie mice/rabbits/squirrels, etc... that can occupy the same space as a person, especially ones that are invisible.....
In my campaign, I can have the various versions of Imbue Undead with Spell Ability all exist simultaneously, just requiring varying levels of investment.
Gula likes to inscribe magical effects into the skin of carefully embalmed zombies. Granted, what they can produce is mostly very low-level effects, like Touch of Fatigue, but the inscriptions also aim to allow the wrestlers and tough-men she prefers to animate as guards for her opium den to retain some of their fighting skill (i.e. not be totally unskilled, which in GURPS makes any character pretty much useless in combat) and even have some minor protections from fire and lightning.
For more powerful undead, I expect she'd sometimes Imbue them with more powerful spells.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Along similar lines, having incorporeal undead that can release spells from the ground beneath a character's feet can be deadly, as even if the characters have spells up to see invisbility, the incorporeal being can start out towards them from half a mile away simply walking through the earth. Then they just pop their head up and release the spell from behind the characters where they aren't even looking.
Of course, such undead need senses that can penetrate walls and floors if they are supposed to be able to even know where the characters are.
Lifesense would probably work best. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 14:35:26
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
not specifically realmslore, but there's been a lot of third party things where like the skeleton becomes one undead, the skin another, and the spirit another... all from one corpse.
I've seen undead types that are just the skin and, of course, spectres are incorporeal spirits that rise from the corpse, leaving it behind. But I don't recall seeing it specifically stated anywhere that all three can be made from the same corpse. Do you recall any source specifically saying that?
On one hand, it's efficient and thrifty. 'At Karallu, we use every part of the body!
On the other, I've always considered typical spells that create undead, even corporeal types, to work by trapping some part of the soul into the corporeal body. This is, indeed, why animating dead bodies is universally considered horrifying and evil, as it prevents the person whose body was animated from going to their natural afterlife.
And I'm concerned that by making a spectre or shadow from the soul of a person, it doesn't leave anything for Animate Dead to trap in the corpse to make a corporeal undead.
That being said, I'd still allow the corpse to be used as raw materials, either as part of an undead type that requires a multiple corpses, or for creating a type of undead that traps a minor spirit in it, but that kind of magic would usually be more powerful than Animate Dead, at least in my view. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 14:18:03
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
If you want to armour them just give them the old bracers and rings that you have lying around or have replaced. +1 - +3 rings cloaks and bracers of protection. Heavy crossbows with bolts enhanced with extra piercing. To fight them others will shoot back at them and your skeletons and such are resistant to piercing damage already.
1/2 - 1 HD skeletons with heavy crossbows do as much damage as 10 HD skeletons with heavy crossbows. You can put them in a crows nest up top a 30-50 foot post, don't have to feed them, don't worry about sleep and fill the crows nest with quarrels.
Or if you really want to make it interesting make their arm bones into wand or rods that fire off various spells. Fireball or lightning bolt or magic missile or web or grease spells.
A stinking cloud is a great spell for a skeleton hoard to use.
Skeletons in crows nests can also throw oil and acid and various other 'grenades'.
good points. Imbue undead with spell ability from 2nd edition was a VERY dangerous spell if used correctly. Various other cloud type effects, such as cloudkill and wall of force (or similar effects) combined with spells to prevent magical transport were especially deadly in second edition. Less so in third, but still very dangerous. When released from skeletal/zombie mice/rabbits/squirrels, etc... that can occupy the same space as a person, especially ones that are invisible.....
Along similar lines, having incorporeal undead that can release spells from the ground beneath a character's feet can be deadly, as even if the characters have spells up to see invisbility, the incorporeal being can start out towards them from half a mile away simply walking through the earth. Then they just pop their head up and release the spell from behind the characters where they aren't even looking. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 14:15:49
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
If you want to armour them just give them the old bracers and rings that you have lying around or have replaced. +1 - +3 rings cloaks and bracers of protection. Heavy crossbows with bolts enhanced with extra piercing. To fight them others will shoot back at them and your skeletons and such are resistant to piercing damage already.
1/2 - 1 HD skeletons with heavy crossbows do as much damage as 10 HD skeletons with heavy crossbows. You can put them in a crows nest up top a 30-50 foot post, don't have to feed them, don't worry about sleep and fill the crows nest with quarrels.
Or if you really want to make it interesting make their arm bones into wand or rods that fire off various spells. Fireball or lightning bolt or magic missile or web or grease spells.
A stinking cloud is a great spell for a skeleton hoard to use.
Skeletons in crows nests can also throw oil and acid and various other 'grenades'.
good points. Imbue undead with spell ability from 2nd edition was a VERY dangerous spell if used correctly. Various other cloud type effects, such as cloudkill and wall of force (or similar effects) combined with spells to prevent magical transport were especially deadly in second edition. Less so in third, but still very dangerous. When released from skeletal/zombie mice/rabbits/squirrels, etc... that can occupy the same space as a person, especially ones that are invisible..... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 14:11:40
not specifically realmslore, but there's been a lot of third party things where like the skeleton becomes one undead, the skin another, and the spirit another... all from one corpse. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 13:59:21
Does anyone know if it has been established in Realmslore if it is possible to animate a corporeal undead, like a zombie or skeleton, from the corpse of a creature whose spirit has already been made an incorporeal undead, like a spectre or shadow? |
| Thraskir Skimper |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 14:39:44
If you want to armour them just give them the old bracers and rings that you have lying around or have replaced. +1 - +3 rings cloaks and bracers of protection. Heavy crossbows with bolts enhanced with extra piercing. To fight them others will shoot back at them and your skeletons and such are resistant to piercing damage already.
1/2 - 1 HD skeletons with heavy crossbows do as much damage as 10 HD skeletons with heavy crossbows. You can put them in a crows nest up top a 30-50 foot post, don't have to feed them, don't worry about sleep and fill the crows nest with quarrels.
Or if you really want to make it interesting make their arm bones into wand or rods that fire off various spells. Fireball or lightning bolt or magic missile or web or grease spells.
A stinking cloud is a great spell for a skeleton hoard to use.
Skeletons in crows nests can also throw oil and acid and various other 'grenades'. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 12:51:38
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Intact has many definitions. One is "whole", "complete", "not missing parts". It doesn't necessarily mean "put together". You can interpret it the way you want though.
In general, a thing that is in many pieces is not intact, even if the pieces it is missing are located in fairly close geographic proximity.
Take the example of a ceramic vase or a clock, for example. No one would use the term 'intact' for a fragmented vase or broken clock, even if all the fragments were swept up in a pile or the pieces of the broken clock were placed near each other. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 00:43:11
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Leg bones might be a problem, but spines are nothing more than a bunch of vertebrae. Granted, yes getting the body of a dragon may be hard, but not outside the realms of possibility, especially for someone with determination. That being said, reducing the "age" of the dead dragon also fits. As to getting an extradimensional space... there's plenty of examples of cheap extradimensional magic, and in fact nothing even says that all of it needs to go into the same bag/portable hole/etc... If he wanted to keep it in a specified place, a rope trick could even work, with it being renewed each day and the skeleton servants refilling it (and this might be what's used for other skeletons that are animated). Let's face it, its all for an example.
'A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact body or skeleton'. By D&D 3/3.5 edition rules, a skeleton where the spine has been separated into individual vertebrae and the various bones stored in different places, cannot be made into an undead skeleton with Animate Dead.
For the purposes of my campaign, I might allow some semblance of effect when a very powerful spellcaster casts Animate Dead on a pile of bones, but by the D&D RAW, nothing would happen. In any case, I tend to correlate the physical abilities of corporeal undead with how well their remains were preserved and prepared by the necromancer (or assistant), with corpses that were merely found laying around requiring much more energy to animate and having much less functionality than skeletons where the bones have been carefully cleaned and articulated by a skilled necromancer or necromancer's assistant.
So if you want a skeletal dragon or other monster that will move fast, hit hard and resist falling to pieces at the first hit, you'd want to store it as an articulated skeleton display, treated with secret necromantic unguents and glues, not as piles of unconnected bones in different places.
Intact has many definitions. One is "whole", "complete", "not missing parts". It doesn't necessarily mean "put together". You can interpret it the way you want though. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 16:30:23
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Leg bones might be a problem, but spines are nothing more than a bunch of vertebrae. Granted, yes getting the body of a dragon may be hard, but not outside the realms of possibility, especially for someone with determination. That being said, reducing the "age" of the dead dragon also fits. As to getting an extradimensional space... there's plenty of examples of cheap extradimensional magic, and in fact nothing even says that all of it needs to go into the same bag/portable hole/etc... If he wanted to keep it in a specified place, a rope trick could even work, with it being renewed each day and the skeleton servants refilling it (and this might be what's used for other skeletons that are animated). Let's face it, its all for an example.
'A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact body or skeleton'. By D&D 3/3.5 edition rules, a skeleton where the spine has been separated into individual vertebrae and the various bones stored in different places, cannot be made into an undead skeleton with Animate Dead.
For the purposes of my campaign, I might allow some semblance of effect when a very powerful spellcaster casts Animate Dead on a pile of bones, but by the D&D RAW, nothing would happen. In any case, I tend to correlate the physical abilities of corporeal undead with how well their remains were preserved and prepared by the necromancer (or assistant), with corpses that were merely found laying around requiring much more energy to animate and having much less functionality than skeletons where the bones have been carefully cleaned and articulated by a skilled necromancer or necromancer's assistant.
So if you want a skeletal dragon or other monster that will move fast, hit hard and resist falling to pieces at the first hit, you'd want to store it as an articulated skeleton display, treated with secret necromantic unguents and glues, not as piles of unconnected bones in different places. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 14:25:31
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, the utility of it comes whenever they find out someone is actually invading their territory, and they pick up the rod, reach into some extradimensional space (because even a colossal sized creature when reduced to just bones can probably fit in a 10x10 cube before its animated), and animate that 35 HD ancient gold dragon skeleton that they had prepared for emergencies, plus with another animate dead casting 2 other creatures with around 20 HD each. Then with the remaining few HD they can prep some kind of fodder to take the brunt of any initial turn attempts. Then, as the enemy wipes half his current undead breaking in, they can use another animate dead for 2 more 20 HD creatures. If they can delay the enemy long enough with some kind of puzzle, they can even cast create greater undead to make a devourer and create undead to make a morhg (this would take 2 hours mind you, unless some shenanigans were pulled somehow to speed it up). Thus, when the party shows up to face the rakshasa, he might have an ancient gold dragon skeleton, 4 ~20 HD skeletal creatures, a devourer, and a morhg…. Which should be enough that he might be able to hide and escape if need be.
BTW, putting up a minor image of blue, crackling flames on that dragon skeleton with a raspy voice coming from it, and strange glowing runes on its bones is sure to attract the party's attention and convince them its a dracolich for at least a round or two.
The broader point, that a Rod of Undead Mastery is very useful for emergencies, is well taken.
As for the specifics, the skeleton of an ancient gold dragon is not exactly easy to obtain. I imagine that kinsmen and allies, not to mention the dragon's legal heir, would deal with such remains as part of funeral arrangments. And react to anyone stealing it much like the Soviet Union would have reacted to anyone stealing Lenin. Ancient gold dragons aren't exactly wandering monsters, they are highly intelligent and socially organized beings, who belong to a regimented society, and are powerful enough to be midway between monarch and demigod.
And I'm pretty confident that something with a spine much longer than 10' is never going to fit in a 10' x 10' x 10' cube. I use 2e sizes for dragons and even the individual leg bones of an ancient dragon are probably more than 10' long. An extadimensional spave that can fit a dragon's skeleton can also fit enough trade goods for an entire caravan or a mid-sized cargo ship. It's an artifact that will yield a return in the hundreds of thousands of gold pieces per year, more if you know about a portal or can use teleport. Using it for anything else would be owning a functioning space shuttle, but using it as fishing boat.
Leg bones might be a problem, but spines are nothing more than a bunch of vertebrae. Granted, yes getting the body of a dragon may be hard, but not outside the realms of possibility, especially for someone with determination. That being said, reducing the "age" of the dead dragon also fits. As to getting an extradimensional space... there's plenty of examples of cheap extradimensional magic, and in fact nothing even says that all of it needs to go into the same bag/portable hole/etc... If he wanted to keep it in a specified place, a rope trick could even work, with it being renewed each day and the skeleton servants refilling it (and this might be what's used for other skeletons that are animated). Let's face it, its all for an example.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 14:11:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, on the above idea of low level rituals for the "everyday man", has anyone seen a good gathering of such on the DM's guild?
Well, not quite the DM's Guild, but there is Goody White's Book of Folk Magic.
quote:
Goody White's Book of Folk Magic is a Pathfinder-compatible sourcebook written in-character by a knowledgeable witch named Goody White, explaining ways to cure illness, ward off undead, brew a love potion, or afflict your enemies. Translated to Pathfinder RPG game terms by Sean K Reynolds, it presents each of these 45 "folk remedies" as a spell, witch hex, and ritual. Much like actual folk magic, the rituals can be learned by anyone who bothers to study them--even characters who have no spellcasting ability.
Some of the topics it covers:
Animal (curing sickness)
Animal (taming)
Bad dream (repelling)
Bees (calming)
Birth (easing)
Bleeding (stanching)
Bowels (harm or soothe)
Bruises (treating)
Burns (healing and treating)
Cataracts (causing or curing)
Crops (blessing)
Curses (warding against)
Dowsing
Dreams (repelling bad)
Fairies (communicating)
Fertility (enhancing or obstructing)
Fits (causing or treating)
Food (flavor or ruin)
Hair (grow or lose)
Household spirits (conjuring)
Impotence
Lameness (causing or healing)
Love (potion)
Luck
Pain (treating)
Passion (cooling or rekindling)
Possession (expelling spirits)
Pregnancy (hiding or showing)
Sickness (curing)
Sleeping (potion)
Spirits (communicating)
Spirits (conjuring household)
Spirits (expelling)
Teeth (repairing or rotting)
Undead (repelling)
Warts (curing)
Weight (gaining or losing)
Though I've disagreed with some of the things he's said, in general, I really like SKR's game material. This was originally a Kickstarter that I backed, partially because I like SKR's stuff, and partially because it seems to me that something like this is very suitable for the Realms. The lovely Lady Hooded One has said:
quote:
Hi again, all.
Erendriel, I can paraphrase Ed here to give you a ready answer:
There are lots of witches in the Realms. However, many of them keep their true natures as hidden as possible, because of the negative views SOME local folk everywhere have towards witches.
So when someone is referred to as a "witch" or a "hedge-wizard," they may or may not have any aptitude for the Art (casting magic). Some "witches" are local herbalists/Wild Talent healers or just crones who know a lot of lore ("wise women"), just as some "hedge-wizards" are really old retired adventurers or sages who have accumulated a few magic items which they use to defend themselves against robbers from time to time, and acquire a "don't mess with HIM; he knows magic!" reputation.
In other words, with both "witch" and "hedge-wizard," there's a pejorative use of the word and the sloppy misuse of it by the ignorant and various more precise usages, and thye often get mixed up together.
Some witches are really sorceresses or incantatrixes, some are priestesses of Selûne or Eilistraee or Chauntea (or even Malar or Loviatar or Moander) who get labelled witches; and some are members of various nature (star worshippers, forestr place-spirit worshippers) and beast cults. And yes, there are male and female witches of all of these sorts, despite my female terminology (though use of the word "witch" by others often arises from witnessing female leadership or female-wielded power).
Their "practices" vary depending on what they really are, and who (as people) they really are; nasty, or insane, or hurt by events in their lives, and their personal world-views and aims.
How they get treated depends a lot on their behaviour; someone who heals the sick or at least eases pain and death will be regarded far more favorably than someone who uses magic to bully or harm. The overall society tends to view "witches" with wariness, if not suspicion and fear, in part because some clergy encourage such views because they see "witches" as "unregulated competitors" (i.e. spellcasters not closely regimented by an organized church). This view may or may not be true, of course, depending on the witch.
Almost all "witches" are to some extent Wild Talents, whose innate, born aptitudes for magic or herbalism or attunement to nature blossom or awaken as they grow up (sometimes triggered by a traumatic event). Most worship a widely-known deity or a locally-known "place spirit," or take counsel with druids, to acquire some guidance in the use and development of their powers, and in moral life decisions. (And some such guides grant or "turn on" increasing powers within a witch, in return for "doing the right things.")
There. That's about where Ed's general notes stop, and we get into individual cases.
love,
THO
So it seems reasonable to me that a lot of people may know one or two of these rituals, and most villages will have a witch or respected elder who knows a lot of them.
Hmmm, worth reading, but was hoping someone had already done the legwork to make such for 5e and put it on dm's guild, that way people could use it by just referencing it. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 00:23:07
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, the utility of it comes whenever they find out someone is actually invading their territory, and they pick up the rod, reach into some extradimensional space (because even a colossal sized creature when reduced to just bones can probably fit in a 10x10 cube before its animated), and animate that 35 HD ancient gold dragon skeleton that they had prepared for emergencies, plus with another animate dead casting 2 other creatures with around 20 HD each. Then with the remaining few HD they can prep some kind of fodder to take the brunt of any initial turn attempts. Then, as the enemy wipes half his current undead breaking in, they can use another animate dead for 2 more 20 HD creatures. If they can delay the enemy long enough with some kind of puzzle, they can even cast create greater undead to make a devourer and create undead to make a morhg (this would take 2 hours mind you, unless some shenanigans were pulled somehow to speed it up). Thus, when the party shows up to face the rakshasa, he might have an ancient gold dragon skeleton, 4 ~20 HD skeletal creatures, a devourer, and a morhg…. Which should be enough that he might be able to hide and escape if need be.
BTW, putting up a minor image of blue, crackling flames on that dragon skeleton with a raspy voice coming from it, and strange glowing runes on its bones is sure to attract the party's attention and convince them its a dracolich for at least a round or two.
The broader point, that a Rod of Undead Mastery is very useful for emergencies, is well taken.
As for the specifics, the skeleton of an ancient gold dragon is not exactly easy to obtain. I imagine that kinsmen and allies, not to mention the dragon's legal heir, would deal with such remains as part of funeral arrangments. And react to anyone stealing it much like the Soviet Union would have reacted to anyone stealing Lenin. Ancient gold dragons aren't exactly wandering monsters, they are highly intelligent and socially organized beings, who belong to a regimented society, and are powerful enough to be midway between monarch and demigod.
And I'm pretty confident that something with a spine much longer than 10' is never going to fit in a 10' x 10' x 10' cube. I use 2e sizes for dragons and even the individual leg bones of an ancient dragon are probably more than 10' long. An extadimensional spave that can fit a dragon's skeleton can also fit enough trade goods for an entire caravan or a mid-sized cargo ship. It's an artifact that will yield a return in the hundreds of thousands of gold pieces per year, more if you know about a portal or can use teleport. Using it for anything else would be owning a functioning space shuttle, but using it as fishing boat. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 20:28:49
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, in thinking back to the mechanics I'm describing for these items that control a simple skeleton using 3.5 rules, I'm also reminded of the "rod of undead mastery". I'm pretty much picturing any ak'chasar rakshasa as seeking one of these out or having one made. They're not terribly expensive and increase the number of controllable undead. I can easily picture the temple of Velsharoon at his mortal abode (the Tower Terrible in Soorenar) as having these amongst their priests.
Mechanically, I think you need to be wielding a Rod to use its power, so the utility of such a Rod for an increase in the number of undead controlled in the long-term is questionable. After all, no one is going to want to eat, sleep or do a range of other things while holding a rod all the time. That being said, I'd allow an item that didn't require a free hand, like an amulet, holy symbol or crown, at a double cost.
The effects are also ambigious as to whether they merely double the HD of the Animate Dead control pool, or if they double the control pool regardles of source, which would mean it also doubled the HD of the pool that could potential be controlled with the clerical/dread necromancer ability of Rebuke Undead. I doubt that was the intention, but such an item ought to exist as well, and it would make sense to combine the enchantments into one item.
In Gula's case, she'll have a neclace with her holy symbol, enchanted to boost her control pool of undead from all sources. Individual charms on the necklace will be attuned to various items given to intelligent undead to focus her control through, allowing her to command her most powerful servants, like the vampire familiar Ahhusha (control now broken), the ghost Karab who possesses her bodyguard Zage, the mohrg torturer Akilkuba, Aydargalama the mohrg, and the skeleton warriors Timgiratee and Maharbaal Spinecrusher.
I suppose there might also be some mummies, ghasts and lesser undead, as yet unnamed, as well as a Devourer, controlled through the necklace or some other magical items Gula owns. The majority of such, however, are probably bound to areas where they died, as guardians that Gula can't command beyond a basic duty to attack strangers and leave those carrying ward keys alone. Gula's incorporeal undead are mostly controlled through the means of a magical mosaic which traps them, but I suppose she might have a couple bound to charms.
I'm unsure whether Ghanashyam should have a Rod of Undead Mastery. As noted earlier, he really needs a better way to control 4+ HD undead of at least limited self-will, not just a higher number of mostly useless zombies or skeletons. He can cast Control Undead as an innate ability 2/day, but that lasts mere minutes. Some way to extend that to hours or days would definately be ideal for Ghanashyam and his force of juju zombie fighters and skeletal assassins.
Yeah, the utility of it comes whenever they find out someone is actually invading their territory, and they pick up the rod, reach into some extradimensional space (because even a colossal sized creature when reduced to just bones can probably fit in a 10x10 cube before its animated), and animate that 35 HD ancient gold dragon skeleton that they had prepared for emergencies, plus with another animate dead casting 2 other creatures with around 20 HD each. Then with the remaining few HD they can prep some kind of fodder to take the brunt of any initial turn attempts. Then, as the enemy wipes half his current undead breaking in, they can use another animate dead for 2 more 20 HD creatures. If they can delay the enemy long enough with some kind of puzzle, they can even cast create greater undead to make a devourer and create undead to make a morhg (this would take 2 hours mind you, unless some shenanigans were pulled somehow to speed it up). Thus, when the party shows up to face the rakshasa, he might have an ancient gold dragon skeleton, 4 ~20 HD skeletal creatures, a devourer, and a morhg…. Which should be enough that he might be able to hide and escape if need be.
BTW, putting up a minor image of blue, crackling flames on that dragon skeleton with a raspy voice coming from it, and strange glowing runes on its bones is sure to attract the party's attention and convince them its a dracolich for at least a round or two. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 12:33:17
When I was determining what differentiated various forms of corporeal undead from one another, I came across a really strange oddity in 3e/3.5 D&D rules.
Apparently, 3e Ghouls have Int 13 and Wis 14. That's a major change from original D&D, where they had Intelligence 3 in the first book where intelligence for them as monsters was given (1991 Rules Cyclopedia) and from AD&D 1e and 2e, where they had Intelligence Low (5-7). In addition, all Realmslore I can recall having seen on ghouls portrays them as bestial, appetite-driven creatures, without memories of their former lives and with only a predator-like cunning, not actual high-order intelligence.
Why would D&D 3e/3.5 make ghouls as intelligent as the average college faculty?
Sure, there are legends of underground cities of ghouls living in cannibalistic societies, but surely, these could have been regarded as a distinctly different archetype of ghouls, ones with much higher intelligence than the common run of flesh-eating walking corpse. And even then, I'd expect them to have the same Intelligence as they had in life, at best, i.e. Average (8-10). I don't see how turning someone into a ravenous undead creature with a taste for rotting flesh should be expected to give them a significant boost to their Intelligence.
Besides, if ghouls really did have Int 13, on average, why wouldn't they use weapons to hunt instead of their bare hands? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 04:10:04
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, in thinking back to the mechanics I'm describing for these items that control a simple skeleton using 3.5 rules, I'm also reminded of the "rod of undead mastery". I'm pretty much picturing any ak'chasar rakshasa as seeking one of these out or having one made. They're not terribly expensive and increase the number of controllable undead. I can easily picture the temple of Velsharoon at his mortal abode (the Tower Terrible in Soorenar) as having these amongst their priests.
Mechanically, I think you need to be wielding a Rod to use its power, so the utility of such a Rod for an increase in the number of undead controlled in the long-term is questionable. After all, no one is going to want to eat, sleep or do a range of other things while holding a rod all the time. That being said, I'd allow an item that didn't require a free hand, like an amulet, holy symbol or crown, at a double cost.
The effects are also ambigious as to whether they merely double the HD of the Animate Dead control pool, or if they double the control pool regardles of source, which would mean it also doubled the HD of the pool that could potential be controlled with the clerical/dread necromancer ability of Rebuke Undead. I doubt that was the intention, but such an item ought to exist as well, and it would make sense to combine the enchantments into one item.
In Gula's case, she'll have a neclace with her holy symbol, enchanted to boost her control pool of undead from all sources. Individual charms on the necklace will be attuned to various items given to intelligent undead to focus her control through, allowing her to command her most powerful servants, like the vampire familiar Ahhusha (control now broken), the ghost Karab who possesses her bodyguard Zage, the mohrg torturer Akilkuba, Aydargalama the mohrg, and the skeleton warriors Timgiratee and Maharbaal Spinecrusher.
I suppose there might also be some mummies, ghasts and lesser undead, as yet unnamed, as well as a Devourer, controlled through the necklace or some other magical items Gula owns. The majority of such, however, are probably bound to areas where they died, as guardians that Gula can't command beyond a basic duty to attack strangers and leave those carrying ward keys alone. Gula's incorporeal undead are mostly controlled through the means of a magical mosaic which traps them, but I suppose she might have a couple bound to charms.
I'm unsure whether Ghanashyam should have a Rod of Undead Mastery. As noted earlier, he really needs a better way to control 4+ HD undead of at least limited self-will, not just a higher number of mostly useless zombies or skeletons. He can cast Control Undead as an innate ability 2/day, but that lasts mere minutes. Some way to extend that to hours or days would definately be ideal for Ghanashyam and his force of juju zombie fighters and skeletal assassins. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 03:14:00
Also, in thinking back to the mechanics I'm describing for these items that control a simple skeleton using 3.5 rules, I'm also reminded of the "rod of undead mastery". I'm pretty much picturing any ak'chasar rakshasa as seeking one of these out or having one made. They're not terribly expensive and increase the number of controllable undead. I can easily picture the temple of Velsharoon at his mortal abode (the Tower Terrible in Soorenar) as having these amongst their priests. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 00:32:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Right, the idea of this item would only fit for someone who wants more undead of minor capability. Essentially, it would be someone who sees more value in having workers than he does in having protectors. The drawback to this is the fact that each such item must be attuned, thus a given person could only have at most 3 such devices (in 3e rules, if we had it as neck, ring, and head slots, it could be 4). Thus, you could gain a larger workforce using it, but only by having other individuals of free will to guide said workforce. In this instance, I envision the rakshasa actually only doing 1 item per servant, and thus each skeleton would also have a human servant guiding it.
Of course some of these "servants" may actually just be house guards as well, who then have control of a skeleton as a guard as well. As another option, it could be a single house guard commanding 3 skeletons. Or perhaps there is a more powerful version of the item which links to 2 or 4 collars, and one individual guard might control 6 or 12 skeletons (and they may all be dressed alike, so you can't tell the living guard from the dead).
To turn around and do similar math with your formula for 3.5e where "each skeleton controlled counts half against the pool of hit dice", IF these same rakshasa had an 80 HD pool limit and were interested in making tons of little servants, they could have up to 160 such skeletons, and they'd still be under their control unlike the above, but they'd have servants who would be guiding them day to day. Under the 3.5e rules as well, I'd make different versions of these items, each able to control a skeleton of more HD, but at a gold piece cost that squares by the number of hit dice maybe (i.e. 50 gold for a single 1 HD skeleton, 200 gold for a 2 HD skeleton, 450 gold for a 3 HD skeleton, 800 gold for a 4 HD skeleton, 5000 gold for a 10 HD skeleton, etc...). This would fit more with a rakshasa having a smaller household with some household guards, each of which he entrusts to have his own personal undead protector to work with and provide say flanking bonuses which make individuals prone to sneak attacks, etc... or providing powerful undead dinosaur mounts for his house soldiers, etc..
Ghanashyam lives in a nice villa, not a mansion or castle. From his perspective, mere numbers aren't the priority. He wants to use the 80 HD of zombies or skeletons he gets 'free' as effectively as he can, but he really doesn't have all that much call for over a hundred 1 HD skeletons.
I doubt more than thirty slaves or servants could fit into his home and any more than that wouldn't have anything to do. Granted, skeletons or zombies can be packed a lot tighter than living slaves, but that's useful for emergency defence, not daily tasks.
More relevant for Ghanashyam's needs, I guess, is the fact that he can create two ghasts, juju zombies, skeletal champions, mummies or mohrgs (along with some other, more exotic undead) every day. However, he doesn't have access to the 7th level spell Control Undead, and using his Rebuke Undead ability, he can only control 20 HD.
That's only ten ghouls, five ghasts, two mummies or one mohrg. Assuming 4th level characters, it's only five juju zombies or skeletal champions.
That's only a tiny fraction of the number of these more powerful undead that Ghanashyam is capable of creating in a month. If he wants to make use of his gifts, he really has to find a way to control a greater number of these more powerful undead.
Not to mention the shadows, wraiths, spectres or devourers that he can crank out with Create Greater Undead. Even at only one per night, that racks up pretty fast, if he can find a way to control them.
I'm assuming that necromancers should know some way to bind undead guardians to certain places, without taking up ongoing mental effort or part of their power. Some ritual where they carve glyphs into a wall or bind the undead to an item.
For undead that must be able to leave the home, I think that a kind of focus item for the negative energy channeled with Rebuke Undead, that makes them easier to control on an ongoing basis, would make sense. Such as, yes, an collar that makes their HD count as half for control purposes.
Of course, Ghanashyam is not really an enchanter, but that's one of the things his strategic partnership with Gula is about. She sells him embalmed bodies, material components, ritual objects and, yes, focus items and enchanted items. In return, he shares with her a lot of information gathered through his foreign contacts, which might affect her interests in Unthalass. He also trades with her some of the valuable items and materials that he is able to source in Chessenta. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 23:33:52
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
but its obviously not a permanent magical item (the 5e version), because it has to have someone recast animate dead on it every 2 months for it to keep working. That's the concept, its a magic item which someone milks a casting of animate dead to simply last longer but only last on a single simple undead skeleton. The making of the initial magic item... not sure how many days it might take... the renewing of animate dead is just a casting. Low powered magic items in 5e generally cost from 50 to 100 gold. Given that the item would take an attunement slot, no sane adventurer would want one of these for themselves except maybe at first to fifth level when they have no items yet. The item would only be good for 2 months, they'd have to run across skeletons ot use it on, and then they'd have to pay some more powerful caster to recast animate dead on it for them (and said caster may charge them a hefty price to do so)…. or the spellcaster may cast animate dead on it for free, give them a skeleton, and ask them to do some minor service in return.
Fair enough.
Of course, for someone who is able to cast Animate Dead three times a day without any cost, but is only able to control the undead created by two of those spells, the requirement to cast it daily is not much of a limitation.
I get that it's useful in 5e, but for my game, it's effectively a permanent magical item, though I suppose that for flavour, requiring an Animate Dead spell to be cast on it monthly would be fine.
Of course, the number of corporeal undead created by Animate Dead is not really the asset that Ghanashyam (and a lot of other necromancers) want to boost. Anyone who has the ability to Command Undead through the priestly ability of channeling negative energy (Rebuke Undead) will want to be able to control more powerful undead and more of them.
How do you control a whole guard force of juju zombies and skeletal champions?
Not to mention ghouls, ghasts, shadows, wraiths, mohrgs, spectres and devourers.
By 3e or 3.5 rules, a death priest or anyone else with the ability to command undead by channeling negative energy can only command as many HD of undead as his effective level at Rebuke Undead. That's not a whole lot, if you want a guard force, let alone if you want an undead army.
Right, the idea of this item would only fit for someone who wants more undead of minor capability. Essentially, it would be someone who sees more value in having workers than he does in having protectors. The drawback to this is the fact that each such item must be attuned, thus a given person could only have at most 3 such devices (in 3e rules, if we had it as neck, ring, and head slots, it could be 4). Thus, you could gain a larger workforce using it, but only by having other individuals of free will to guide said workforce. In this instance, I envision the rakshasa actually only doing 1 item per servant, and thus each skeleton would also have a human servant guiding it.
Of course some of these "servants" may actually just be house guards as well, who then have control of a skeleton as a guard as well. As another option, it could be a single house guard commanding 3 skeletons. Or perhaps there is a more powerful version of the item which links to 2 or 4 collars, and one individual guard might control 6 or 12 skeletons (and they may all be dressed alike, so you can't tell the living guard from the dead).
Just to put a bit of math to this formula, in the 5e ruleset, if a rakshasa were to have animate dead 3 times per day, then they could only maintain 12 skeletons or zombies (regular ones, not powerful ones). There is no cost to animate dead in 5e, so the control is in having to continually cast it every day to maintain what you have. If each of these "items" controlled a single skeleton, but maintained control for 60 days instead of 1 day, then the rakshasa could effectively "control" up to 180 of these skeletons instead of 12 via spending the money and paying servants to control them (a cost of 9000 gold for the items if they're 50 gold each, which would be in the range of a very rare item that an 11th level character might have). He wouldn't have control of the undead himself though in this scenario, so he'd have to trust his servants. If each of the items were made much more expensive (say 300 gold each), but they allowed control of 2 skeletons instead of 1, that could be 360 skeletons (at a cost of say 54,000 gold, which in the 5e economy is the equivalent of a legendary item which only a 17th lvl character would have).
The problems with the 5e ruleset are that there's no written rules as yet (that I've seen) for creating more powerful skeletons, etc... They exist in say a monster manual, but their creation methods are undocumented except in third party materials like DM's Guild. The only types of undead that can be "created" by necromancers are basic skeletons, zombies and ghouls.
To turn around and do similar math with your formula for 3.5e where "each skeleton controlled counts half against the pool of hit dice", IF these same rakshasa had an 80 HD pool limit and were interested in making tons of little servants, they could have up to 160 such skeletons, and they'd still be under their control unlike the above, but they'd have servants who would be guiding them day to day. Under the 3.5e rules as well, I'd make different versions of these items, each able to control a skeleton of more HD, but at a gold piece cost that squares by the number of hit dice maybe (i.e. 50 gold for a single 1 HD skeleton, 200 gold for a 2 HD skeleton, 450 gold for a 3 HD skeleton, 800 gold for a 4 HD skeleton, 5000 gold for a 10 HD skeleton, etc...). This would fit more with a rakshasa having a smaller household with some household guards, each of which he entrusts to have his own personal undead protector to work with and provide say flanking bonuses which make individuals prone to sneak attacks, etc... or providing powerful undead dinosaur mounts for his house soldiers, etc.. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 21:42:08
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
but its obviously not a permanent magical item (the 5e version), because it has to have someone recast animate dead on it every 2 months for it to keep working. That's the concept, its a magic item which someone milks a casting of animate dead to simply last longer but only last on a single simple undead skeleton. The making of the initial magic item... not sure how many days it might take... the renewing of animate dead is just a casting. Low powered magic items in 5e generally cost from 50 to 100 gold. Given that the item would take an attunement slot, no sane adventurer would want one of these for themselves except maybe at first to fifth level when they have no items yet. The item would only be good for 2 months, they'd have to run across skeletons ot use it on, and then they'd have to pay some more powerful caster to recast animate dead on it for them (and said caster may charge them a hefty price to do so)…. or the spellcaster may cast animate dead on it for free, give them a skeleton, and ask them to do some minor service in return.
Fair enough.
Of course, for someone who is able to cast Animate Dead three times a day without any cost, but is only able to control the undead created by two of those spells, the requirement to cast it daily is not much of a limitation.
I get that it's useful in 5e, but for my game, it's effectively a permanent magical item, though I suppose that for flavour, requiring an Animate Dead spell to be cast on it monthly would be fine.
Of course, the number of corporeal undead created by Animate Dead is not really the asset that Ghanashyam (and a lot of other necromancers) want to boost. Anyone who has the ability to Command Undead through the priestly ability of channeling negative energy (Rebuke Undead) will want to be able to control more powerful undead and more of them.
How do you control a whole guard force of juju zombies and skeletal champions?
Not to mention ghouls, ghasts, shadows, wraiths, mohrgs, spectres and devourers.
By 3e or 3.5 rules, a death priest or anyone else with the ability to command undead by channeling negative energy can only command as many HD of undead as his effective level at Rebuke Undead. That's not a whole lot, if you want a guard force, let alone if you want an undead army. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 20:03:21
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, on the above idea of low level rituals for the "everyday man", has anyone seen a good gathering of such on the DM's guild?
Well, not quite the DM's Guild, but there is Goody White's Book of Folk Magic.
quote:
Goody White's Book of Folk Magic is a Pathfinder-compatible sourcebook written in-character by a knowledgeable witch named Goody White, explaining ways to cure illness, ward off undead, brew a love potion, or afflict your enemies. Translated to Pathfinder RPG game terms by Sean K Reynolds, it presents each of these 45 "folk remedies" as a spell, witch hex, and ritual. Much like actual folk magic, the rituals can be learned by anyone who bothers to study them--even characters who have no spellcasting ability.
Some of the topics it covers:
Animal (curing sickness)
Animal (taming)
Bad dream (repelling)
Bees (calming)
Birth (easing)
Bleeding (stanching)
Bowels (harm or soothe)
Bruises (treating)
Burns (healing and treating)
Cataracts (causing or curing)
Crops (blessing)
Curses (warding against)
Dowsing
Dreams (repelling bad)
Fairies (communicating)
Fertility (enhancing or obstructing)
Fits (causing or treating)
Food (flavor or ruin)
Hair (grow or lose)
Household spirits (conjuring)
Impotence
Lameness (causing or healing)
Love (potion)
Luck
Pain (treating)
Passion (cooling or rekindling)
Possession (expelling spirits)
Pregnancy (hiding or showing)
Sickness (curing)
Sleeping (potion)
Spirits (communicating)
Spirits (conjuring household)
Spirits (expelling)
Teeth (repairing or rotting)
Undead (repelling)
Warts (curing)
Weight (gaining or losing)
Though I've disagreed with some of the things he's said, in general, I really like SKR's game material. This was originally a Kickstarter that I backed, partially because I like SKR's stuff, and partially because it seems to me that something like this is very suitable for the Realms. The lovely Lady Hooded One has said:
quote:
Hi again, all.
Erendriel, I can paraphrase Ed here to give you a ready answer:
There are lots of witches in the Realms. However, many of them keep their true natures as hidden as possible, because of the negative views SOME local folk everywhere have towards witches.
So when someone is referred to as a "witch" or a "hedge-wizard," they may or may not have any aptitude for the Art (casting magic). Some "witches" are local herbalists/Wild Talent healers or just crones who know a lot of lore ("wise women"), just as some "hedge-wizards" are really old retired adventurers or sages who have accumulated a few magic items which they use to defend themselves against robbers from time to time, and acquire a "don't mess with HIM; he knows magic!" reputation.
In other words, with both "witch" and "hedge-wizard," there's a pejorative use of the word and the sloppy misuse of it by the ignorant and various more precise usages, and thye often get mixed up together.
Some witches are really sorceresses or incantatrixes, some are priestesses of Selûne or Eilistraee or Chauntea (or even Malar or Loviatar or Moander) who get labelled witches; and some are members of various nature (star worshippers, forestr place-spirit worshippers) and beast cults. And yes, there are male and female witches of all of these sorts, despite my female terminology (though use of the word "witch" by others often arises from witnessing female leadership or female-wielded power).
Their "practices" vary depending on what they really are, and who (as people) they really are; nasty, or insane, or hurt by events in their lives, and their personal world-views and aims.
How they get treated depends a lot on their behaviour; someone who heals the sick or at least eases pain and death will be regarded far more favorably than someone who uses magic to bully or harm. The overall society tends to view "witches" with wariness, if not suspicion and fear, in part because some clergy encourage such views because they see "witches" as "unregulated competitors" (i.e. spellcasters not closely regimented by an organized church). This view may or may not be true, of course, depending on the witch.
Almost all "witches" are to some extent Wild Talents, whose innate, born aptitudes for magic or herbalism or attunement to nature blossom or awaken as they grow up (sometimes triggered by a traumatic event). Most worship a widely-known deity or a locally-known "place spirit," or take counsel with druids, to acquire some guidance in the use and development of their powers, and in moral life decisions. (And some such guides grant or "turn on" increasing powers within a witch, in return for "doing the right things.")
There. That's about where Ed's general notes stop, and we get into individual cases.
love,
THO
So it seems reasonable to me that a lot of people may know one or two of these rituals, and most villages will have a witch or respected elder who knows a lot of them.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 19:39:45
but its obviously not a permanent magical item (the 5e version), because it has to have someone recast animate dead on it every 2 months for it to keep working. That's the concept, its a magic item which someone milks a casting of animate dead to simply last longer but only last on a single simple undead skeleton. The making of the initial magic item... not sure how many days it might take... the renewing of animate dead is just a casting. Low powered magic items in 5e generally cost from 50 to 100 gold. Given that the item would take an attunement slot, no sane adventurer would want one of these for themselves except maybe at first to fifth level when they have no items yet. The item would only be good for 2 months, they'd have to run across skeletons ot use it on, and then they'd have to pay some more powerful caster to recast animate dead on it for them (and said caster may charge them a hefty price to do so)…. or the spellcaster may cast animate dead on it for free, give them a skeleton, and ask them to do some minor service in return. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 19:08:00
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, good, I'm glad we started this discussion. True, the piece stopping them fighting would actually make the creation of the item "harder". The mechanic of making a 1 hd skeleton counting as a 1/2 hd skeleton however for control purposes makes much more sense. Also, the controlling necromancer CAN give the undead the command himself that they are never to attack a living being unless he gives the order. That would work for 3e/3.5e rules.
Yeah, that works for me.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As I think on 5e rules and how they function for animate dead, the animate dead spell must be cast daily to RENEW control over any undead available, and is much much more limiting. Cast as a 3rd level spell, it only animates 4 undead of size medium or small, and each higher spell slot adds 2 additional undead. This is one of the weaknesses of 5e in that they don't necessarily have the spells written up to do everything we can envision in previous editions, but it does heavily lessen the power of necromancers.
So, in 5e, your limit on the number of lesser undead you can have isn't hard set as it is in previous editions, but rather controlled by how often one can cast animate dead. Personally, I can see there being a "control skeleton" spell that's second level that lets you take control of a pair of skeletons that already exist (or even a first level spell that lets you do one). Thus it can't create undead as animate dead can, only reassert control of existing, like animate dead does for renewing control in 5e.
However, this mechanic makes 5e actually more dangerous if put in an item that could be made cheaply than say the option you suggested above for 3e/3.5e.
I won't be endeavouring to emulate 5e in any way, as it doesn't seem to fit the Realmslore that I'm interested in.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, so looking at the previous stuff I wrote, keep the part of the two separate pieces. It takes a month to "re-attune" to a new collar. Also, the servant must attune to the item. Also, if the servant is killed, the undead goes wild. Finally, another restriction... the item itself must periodically have animate dead RECAST upon it (perhaps once every 60 days). Also, if the skeleton is killed, another casting of animate dead must be cast on the item to help it attune to a new collar (which takes another month). This would make it such that it puts limitations on the size of the workforce and one's willingness to just waste these servants (i.e. you have to waste an entire casting of animate dead on a single skeleton, but it SHOULD last for 60 days). If each ring/tiara/necklace cost maybe 50 gold each to create and the collars are just simple leather that can maybe even be reused, they just have to "re-attune" to the item for a month.... in that instance, I can see where some societies might use something like this for labor, but its not going to be society changing.
I don't know how much a gold piece is worth in 5e, but if it's meant to be similar to the worth of gold pieces in previous editions, no way that works. Any spellcaster who can cast Animate Dead (and therefore, one assumes, a range of other spells of up to 3rd level, at least), can get much more than 50 gp per day for non-hazardous work. And it seems unlikely that enchanting a permanent magical item would take only a day. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 18:55:56
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I agree, under 3e/3.5e yes, this could even be a cantrip. The 5e rules being what they are, I would strongly hesitate to make them a cantrip versus a 1st level spell. In fact, a lot of them might be better as a 1st level ritual in 5e, something that can be cast with minimal ritual components (say 1 cp), this due specifically to how cantrips work differently.
In GURPS, Preserve Food is part of the Food College and can be learned fairly easily by any beginning spellcaster with access to that College.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In fact, that could make for something interesting to get past the issues we see in 5e with minor magics (i.e. you only have X number of cantrip slots, so a lot of people spend way too much time considering what to use). Whereas mending is a very very versatile cantrip, there could possibly be 1st level spells workable as rituals for "repair ceramics", that will maybe put ceramics back together ROUGHLY (they may need to be resanded slightly and repainted with any imagery that was on them destroyed). Similar things might be used to "rejoin metal" or "stitch rip together" where they make things whole again, but not exactly "great"... such that a ripped shirt for instance will LOOK stitched, and a metal weapon rejoined may be off balance and easier to rebreak.
In GURPS, repairing items magically is harder than it is in D&D (it requires the equivalent of a 3rd level spellcaster, not an apprentice who hasn't reached 1st level), which I don't really mind, as Mending, as written, has immense economic implications.
Of course, the GURPS spell, Repair, is more powerful than Mending and it's easy enough to add a minor version of it, Mending, that requires lower Magery/Power Investiture and could be done by a specialist in the Making and Breaking College at an equivalent to a D&D level 1st or 2nd. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 13:31:06
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As for a 'Collar of Control'/'Stone of Control'/'Undead Lieutenant Charm', such items most certainly exist in my campaign. They are, however, usually much more expensive than buying a human slave or hiring a regular labourer.
Addressing some specific issues, why would the undead be unable to harm anyone while commanded in this way? From an in-setting, metaphysical point of view, wouldn't this be an expensive extra feature, requiring magical detection abilities capable of distinguishing between an order to pound a stake into the ground from a order to beat a living person with a hammer?
From a gamist point of view, why worry about the potential of one soldier and an expensive magical item being able to replicate the combat power of one soldier? That's not at all what is potentially unbalancing about this. The real concern is that if cheap enough, this becomes technology that replaces steam power and kicks off the Industrial Revolution, which is a problem in any game where the setting isn't supposed to have one.
One way to prevent abuse, or the potential logical inconsistency of why previous necromancers never used this to create an industrial, magitek society, is to declare that such charms or items do not actually increase the pool of HDs that a necromancer can control to infinite numbers, but instead simply allow him to delegate the actual mundane work of supervising mindless undead to others, like his apprentices or other undead in his service.
More expensive charms or items could allow the necromancer to count an undead under his delegated control like this as only half as many HD as it really had, thus increasing his control pool without potentially having infinite undead under his ultimate authority.
Theoretically, I don't mind magical items that allow a character to control even a powerful undead without interfering with his ability to use his own abilities to control undead, but that kind of item would be much more complex and expensive, as it would essemtially emulate the control of a necromancer or death priest by its own power, instead of acting only to focus and transfer the already existing control power to someone else.
Ok, good, I'm glad we started this discussion. True, the piece stopping them fighting would actually make the creation of the item "harder". The mechanic of making a 1 hd skeleton counting as a 1/2 hd skeleton however for control purposes makes much more sense. Also, the controlling necromancer CAN give the undead the command himself that they are never to attack a living being unless he gives the order. That would work for 3e/3.5e rules.
As I think on 5e rules and how they function for animate dead, the animate dead spell must be cast daily to RENEW control over any undead available, and is much much more limiting. Cast as a 3rd level spell, it only animates 4 undead of size medium or small, and each higher spell slot adds 2 additional undead. This is one of the weaknesses of 5e in that they don't necessarily have the spells written up to do everything we can envision in previous editions, but it does heavily lessen the power of necromancers.
So, in 5e, your limit on the number of lesser undead you can have isn't hard set as it is in previous editions, but rather controlled by how often one can cast animate dead. Personally, I can see there being a "control skeleton" spell that's second level that lets you take control of a pair of skeletons that already exist (or even a first level spell that lets you do one). Thus it can't create undead as animate dead can, only reassert control of existing, like animate dead does for renewing control in 5e.
However, this mechanic makes 5e actually more dangerous if put in an item that could be made cheaply than say the option you suggested above for 3e/3.5e. Hmmm, so looking at the previous stuff I wrote, keep the part of the two separate pieces. It takes a month to "re-attune" to a new collar. Also, the servant must attune to the item. Also, if the servant is killed, the undead goes wild. Finally, another restriction... the item itself must periodically have animate dead RECAST upon it (perhaps once every 60 days). Also, if the skeleton is killed, another casting of animate dead must be cast on the item to help it attune to a new collar (which takes another month). This would make it such that it puts limitations on the size of the workforce and one's willingness to just waste these servants (i.e. you have to waste an entire casting of animate dead on a single skeleton, but it SHOULD last for 60 days). If each ring/tiara/necklace cost maybe 50 gold each to create and the collars are just simple leather that can maybe even be reused, they just have to "re-attune" to the item for a month.... in that instance, I can see where some societies might use something like this for labor, but its not going to be society changing. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 12:52:20
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
In 3e, Gentle Repose works pretty much identically to this Preservation spell and is a 2nd level spell for Clerics, 3rd level spell for Wizards/Sorcerers.
I agree that preserving a carcass ought to be a very commonly used spell. It was one of the first tasks that humans developed technology to do, after all, with drying and salting all the way through smoking, cooling or freezing.
Hunters would value it, farmers and butchers would welcome it and anyone in situations where immediate funeral rites were impossible would require it.
Realistically, there would exist cantrips and orisons to slow the rate at which food spoils or corpses rot, for a few hours, allowing hunters to carry a carcass home instead of needing to bleed and gut it before transport. There would also be a 1st level spell that allows slightly longer term storage of an untreated carcass, maybe 12 hours without meaningful rot (each hour counts as a minute), meaning that a shaman or hedge mage dedicating much of his power to it could preserve a carcass for weeks in a fairly fresh state.
I agree, under 3e/3.5e yes, this could even be a cantrip. The 5e rules being what they are, I would strongly hesitate to make them a cantrip versus a 1st level spell. In fact, a lot of them might be better as a 1st level ritual in 5e, something that can be cast with minimal ritual components (say 1 cp), this due specifically to how cantrips work differently.
In fact, that could make for something interesting to get past the issues we see in 5e with minor magics (i.e. you only have X number of cantrip slots, so a lot of people spend way too much time considering what to use). Whereas mending is a very very versatile cantrip, there could possibly be 1st level spells workable as rituals for "repair ceramics", that will maybe put ceramics back together ROUGHLY (they may need to be resanded slightly and repainted with any imagery that was on them destroyed). Similar things might be used to "rejoin metal" or "stitch rip together" where they make things whole again, but not exactly "great"... such that a ripped shirt for instance will LOOK stitched, and a metal weapon rejoined may be off balance and easier to rebreak.
BTW, on the above idea of low level rituals for the "everyday man", has anyone seen a good gathering of such on the DM's guild? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 05:14:13
As for a 'Collar of Control'/'Stone of Control'/'Undead Lieutenant Charm', such items most certainly exist in my campaign. They are, however, usually much more expensive than buying a human slave or hiring a regular labourer.
Addressing some specific issues, why would the undead be unable to harm anyone while commanded in this way? From an in-setting, metaphysical point of view, wouldn't this be an expensive extra feature, requiring magical detection abilities capable of distinguishing between an order to pound a stake into the ground from a order to beat a living person with a hammer?
From a gamist point of view, why worry about the potential of one soldier and an expensive magical item being able to replicate the combat power of one soldier? That's not at all what is potentially unbalancing about this. The real concern is that if cheap enough, this becomes technology that replaces steam power and kicks off the Industrial Revolution, which is a problem in any game where the setting isn't supposed to have one.
One way to prevent abuse, or the potential logical inconsistency of why previous necromancers never used this to create an industrial, magitek society, is to declare that such charms or items do not actually increase the pool of HDs that a necromancer can control to infinite numbers, but instead simply allow him to delegate the actual mundane work of supervising mindless undead to others, like his apprentices or other undead in his service.
More expensive charms or items could allow the necromancer to count an undead under his delegated control like this as only half as many HD as it really had, thus increasing his control pool without potentially having infinite undead under his ultimate authority.
Theoretically, I don't mind magical items that allow a character to control even a powerful undead without interfering with his ability to use his own abilities to control undead, but that kind of item would be much more complex and expensive, as it would essemtially emulate the control of a necromancer or death priest by its own power, instead of acting only to focus and transfer the already existing control power to someone else. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 04:51:47
In 3e, Gentle Repose works pretty much identically to this Preservation spell and is a 2nd level spell for Clerics, 3rd level spell for Wizards/Sorcerers.
I agree that preserving a carcass ought to be a very commonly used spell. It was one of the first tasks that humans developed technology to do, after all, with drying and salting all the way through smoking, cooling or freezing.
Hunters would value it, farmers and butchers would welcome it and anyone in situations where immediate funeral rites were impossible would require it.
Realistically, there would exist cantrips and orisons to slow the rate at which food spoils or corpses rot, for a few hours, allowing hunters to carry a carcass home instead of needing to bleed and gut it before transport. There would also be a 1st level spell that allows slightly longer term storage of an untreated carcass, maybe 12 hours without meaningful rot (each hour counts as a minute), meaning that a shaman or hedge mage dedicating much of his power to it could preserve a carcass for weeks in a fairly fresh state. |
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