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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Seethyr Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 19:38:25
With the vibrant and rich variety of cultures and history in the Realms I’m astounded that we don’t hear more about public or private museums. Wouldn’t a cosmopolitan city such as Waterdeep have at least a few such places? Are there well known ones in the Realms?

Does the Herald’s Holdfast qualify? I believe there was once one in Mezro.
29   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
George Krashos Posted - 06 May 2022 : 01:22:41
There is of course the unnamed famous "sculptor" in Waterdeep who plied his trade by drugging human models, posing them, and then releasing his pet cockatrice upon them ...

-- George Krashos
Athreeren Posted - 05 May 2022 : 17:10:12
I've looked it up, and I found quite a few characters comparing large collections to museums, but few examples of actual museums that would prompt such a comparison. It all comes down to what we define as a museum: A dragon hoard could certainly be considered as a museum, but one that is certainly not open to the public. Similarly, Malchor Harpell's collection is often called a museum, but few can get an entrance ticket. Collections of items of interests that are open to the public tend to be temples. The Gallery Majesta in Calimport, the House of Wonders in Baldur's Gate, the Hall of Beauty in Daerlun, the City of the Dead in Waterdeep or the Monastery of the Yellow Rose in the Earthspur Mountains have all be described as museums, and are temples to Deneir, Gond, Sune, Kelemvor and Ilmater respectively. There are also places of historical importance that have been adapted to receive visitors, such as Durlag's Tower in the Sword Coast. Some collections are semi-private, and visiting them is a privilege reserved to members. And there are great archives such as the library of Silverymoon, Candlekeep, or Moonrise Towers.

The cities that are said to contain many museums are Silverymoon, Calimport and some cities in Wa. Raven's Bluff also has one in Sixstar. Dhedluk in Cormyr has Meliyekur's Magical Museum, which is certainly not up to code. Herald's Holdfast is a museum, but a really secret one. Undermountain apparently has a museum, but that's not the strangest thing there. Ghaurin's Hold in the Silver Marches is a dwarven museum. Apart from examples mentioned above, that's all I was able to find. But we can expect that any town would have some people who are interested enough in the local history to want to gather items that would help them share that history with travellers. Not necessarily the kind of museums adventurers would want to loot for the treasures they contain, but an invaluable source of information regarding the local lore, to find the key to the adventure's mystery.
200found Posted - 05 May 2022 : 08:53:31
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

With the vibrant and rich variety of cultures and history in the Realms I’m astounded that we don’t hear more about public or private museums. Wouldn’t a cosmopolitan city such as Waterdeep have at least a few such places? Are there well known ones in the Realms?

Does the Herald’s Holdfast qualify? I believe there was once one in Mezro.




i hope no one minds me resurrecting this thread a bit; it was one of the top search results for looking up museums and galleries in waterdeep, and thought it could use an artist perspective. (i'm a portrait artist and sculptor with extensive gallery experience).

from my fairly extensive research on the matter, it seems as though there isn't much of a 2-D fine art theme (paintings, murals, prints) in waterdeep, at least, with the following exceptions:

1. a mention of an Galabaude’s Art and Antiques, an art dealer in older versions of trollskull alley--which regrettably seems to be missing in 5e.
2. that one quote "insane" painter who lives in sea ward in the converted windmill at the end of one of the four villain "seasons" (so, many players will never meet them).
3. a poorly-written "crimson brush" gallery in the southern ward, from an old adventurer's guild module.
4. a steel dragon named Auntyrlothtor disguised as an art dealer, who runs the "steel gallery" in trades ward

suffice to say, i was a bit disappointed, given the first awarded treasure in the module includes art objects--paintings that would in theory require a dealer to unload or at least authenticate. what i'm going to do for my campaign is make a series of related npcs, a dedicated guild, a gallery, and a museum. afterwards, i'll upload them to whatever waterdeep community wiki i can find, so that maybe future dms can be inspired.

that said, i have a few responses for some of the questions brought up in prior messages:

painting and other forms of 2-D art peak in popularity when there is a vibrant middle and upper-middle class to purchase it. while it's true many of their art objects will remain in their homes, one key way to advertise aristocratic wealth and secure power is through artistic promotion. while this can take place by key investments in temples and infrastructure, public art helps shape mass media attention.

portraits in particular are highly prized and remain some of our most enduring works of art. waterdeep is very much a sculpture town--e.g., the giant walking statues--but it also has a large number of nobles who will want magical and nonmagical portraits painted; entire art movements in our history focus on paintings of old, rich people, and i don't see why that wouldn't exist in waterdeep. in fact, i imagine the painting scene would be absolutely vibrant, as photography does not seem to exist, and the ability to visually recreate scenes is crucial for books, government, education, and adventuring guides; i can easily see volo stiffing the artist he uses for his books.

i also don't think security would be an issue any more than it would be at a high-end magic shop--there would be security spells and private guards to assure security and insurers and restorers for contingencies.

as for whose "agenda" would be attached to such galleries or museums... it is as it always has been: the history and the production of art is largely determined by the economics that contain it. in a theocracy, you have religious art. in an authoritarian country, you have art that is in service of the state. in a state dominated by corporations, you have art that is subservient to capital. in large bureaucractic states, there tends to be a lack of art that challenges the status quo. waterdeep is a very old but very diverse city. there are many nobles and landlords that probably drive up prices for artists, but also, magic allows for subsistent living that cannot be easily removed. to put it another way, the state can't effectively force an artist to "get a real (aka waged) job" if they can live in a private demiplane off magical food. as a result of basic needs being met, i suspect there would be an awful lot of artisans on the sword coast.

--brad
sleyvas Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 22:53:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I agree its a knock off - but the name doesn't bother me.

Baba is a common term - like calling the mean senior on your street "old man ____"



I get that -- but it's the fact that the name is almost but not quite Baba Yaga, and she has two iconic modes of transport that are almost but not quite identical to Baba Yaga's. They literally added two letters to the name, and applied similar cosmetic changes to the hut and cauldron.

Here's how this comes across, to me: "Allow me to intro my new character, Tranis Half-Elvish, a bearded half-elf torn between his love for a human princess and an elfmaid warrior!"



OOOOOooooooo, I think you meant Tranis Half-mannish, the bearded half-elf who developed the spell "Ad'acockta'me" and became a hermaphrodite lover of a human princess and an elf warrior.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 22:17:11
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I agree its a knock off - but the name doesn't bother me.

Baba is a common term - like calling the mean senior on your street "old man ____"



I get that -- but it's the fact that the name is almost but not quite Baba Yaga, and she has two iconic modes of transport that are almost but not quite identical to Baba Yaga's. They literally added two letters to the name, and applied similar cosmetic changes to the hut and cauldron.

Here's how this comes across, to me: "Allow me to intro my new character, Tranis Half-Elvish, a bearded half-elf torn between his love for a human princess and an elfmaid warrior!"
The Masked Mage Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 21:47:38
One of the few things I liked about the Netheril Box set was that it included numerous museums in Karsus Enclave and elsewhere.
The Masked Mage Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 21:37:25
I agree its a knock off - but the name doesn't bother me.

Baba is a common term - like calling the mean senior on your street "old man ____"

The hut is what bothers me. What is the obsession with a walking hut? I get that its part of the folklore, but aside from that it is pretty lame, when compared with the other possibilities D&D affords a magic user of power.

I for one stick with the old Dragon Mag - Baba Yaga, and interpret her adopted daughter Natasha as becoming Tasha - of Tasha's Hideous Laughter / apprentice of Zagig and eventually Iggwilv - demonbinder/lover and mother of Iuz. That's an impressive legacy for Yaga's effort's training her :)
Wooly Rupert Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 19:10:54
quote:
Originally posted by Rils

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And I am STILL looking for that baba-Yaga knock-off that was in a 4e or 5e source. Her hut had tree-roots for legs instead, and she had a VERY similar-sounding name.

I'm either going nuts, or she is still hanging around with that Candlekeep illithid (I'll find you yet, you slimey bastich!)



You're thinking of Baba Lysaga in the 5e Curse of Strahd book.




Ye dancing gods, what a blatant rip-off.

I don't mind tweaking real-world legends, the way TSR/WotC has done several times over with Baba Yaga, or the way she's been used in the other game settings I mentioned in my earlier post. (Golarion's Baba Yaga conquered a nation in a matter of days and is the mother of Rasputin; Midgard's Baba Yaga is a practically a force of nature and has the entire race of gnomes so terrified of her that they literally made a deal with the powers of the Eleven Hells to protect them from her)

And I don't mind going with something inspired by but clearly different, like the Old Witch in Warmachine; she has a warjack instead of a dancing hut, and while scary, isn't as scary as some versions of Baba Yaga.

But this Baba Lysaga, who has a hut with tree legs and who flies around in a skull instead of a cauldron? That's just a lame rip-off. Either make Baba Yaga recognizable but your own, or make something that's more than just filing off the serial numbers.

If they'd called her Lysaga (without the Baba), and skipped the hut and the skull, it wouldn't have been a blatant rip-off and would have appeared to be something new.

The way they did it, though, calls attention to itself, it's so blatant. It comes across as just plain laziness.
Rils Posted - 26 Jun 2018 : 18:37:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And I am STILL looking for that baba-Yaga knock-off that was in a 4e or 5e source. Her hut had tree-roots for legs instead, and she had a VERY similar-sounding name.

I'm either going nuts, or she is still hanging around with that Candlekeep illithid (I'll find you yet, you slimey bastich!)



You're thinking of Baba Lysaga in the 5e Curse of Strahd book.
moonbeast Posted - 21 Apr 2018 : 14:22:52
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

you mean like the golarion npc of the same name.......



Wooly is correct. Not only is Baba a Russian mythical legend, it was also AD&D via Dragon Magazine that made her a powerful NPC villain introduced in some adventure, this is way back as early as maybe in the 1980s? And that years before Pathfinder even came into existence. Baba Yagas Dancing Hut was also an official D&D "artifact" as early as the first Dungeon Masters Guide, published long before the first edition of Pathfinder.

In THAT old Dragon Mag D&D adventure I hinted at, Baba Yaga's Hut was like a demiplane inside, with numerous levels for Players to explore. One of those levels was Babas museum. It contained relics she collected through her travels in space and time. One relic in her museum was a WW2 Soviet tank. Another was some vehicle she got from the Steampunk era.
Markustay Posted - 20 Apr 2018 : 21:15:42
Does it say somewhere he is under there? Or is that homebrew? I vaguely recall something along those lines...

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

4e or 5e.... might be 4e as no 5e feywild book or article is out.....that I know of
I was working late one night, looking through TONS of sources for inspiration & info, while doing the Nentir Vale/The North conversion (which I MUST get back to soon!!!)

That means it could be nearly anywhere, but my best guess would be 4e era Dungeon or Dragon articles (when they were part of the DDi).

Buuuuuuut... it could even be in something from Paizo, so there, I am even more out-of-my-depth. However, since Paizo uses the real Baba-Yaga as a main part of their setting, I'm just not seeing them also creating a knock-off version. Sounds way more 4e/Feywild to me.

It may have even been in some adventurer's League stuff (but since I am recalling a lot of really good art in the same book, I truly doubt it would be in a sub-standard source like that).

I don't think this will help at all, but IIRC, it was a 'side quest' kind of thing off a bigger AP. Since its not ringing any bells for anyone here (including people who had written for the 4e DDi), I'm starting to doubt my own sanity. LOL

On the bright side, then I have an amazing imagination in my dreams - I can 'see' the artwork in my head still - it was very good. Too bad my skills weren't up to what my brain can create.
Grendel_Greataxe Posted - 20 Apr 2018 : 16:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Plus, it's kind of hard to get excited over a 2000 year old piece of broken crockery, when you can actually talk to someone who is 2000 years old.



Not everyone has access to such ancient beings, even Elves rarely live 2,000 years.

Besides Realms history is far older then 2,000 years, imagine the interest a dinner plate from an ancient Sarrukh Empire would gain, an Empire that existed before Dragons even walked across the world, bwfore the first Sundering.



Who would be interested in that, though, aside from a scholar? Most people in the Realms wouldn't know what a sarrukh was if one walked up and bit them in the backside.

I'd expect there would be a lot more private collections than anything approaching a museum, because most people aren't going to have much use for a museum, and few would be willing to travel beyond their own city to go to one.

Pretty much the only way to have a museum in the Realms, I think, would be to have one sponsored by the state or by a church, because they'd have the money to run such a profitless venture.



FWIW, I'm currently running a campaign drawing from the Sertrous entry in Elder Evils, and as part of it the players will have to delve into the Sarrukh ruins under Old Owl Well to wake up Arthindol the Terraseer and learn what they need to do to prevail. One of the PCs backstories includes being a Sarrukh scholar from Silverymoon.

I'm not sure if that makes your point or argues against it, but I just felt like sharing.
Seethyr Posted - 19 Apr 2018 : 00:03:30
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dancing_Hut_of_Baba_Yaga
Markustay Posted - 18 Apr 2018 : 23:30:22
And I am STILL looking for that baba-Yaga knock-off that was in a 4e or 5e source. Her hut had tree-roots for legs instead, and she had a VERY similar-sounding name.

I'm either going nuts, or she is still hanging around with that Candlekeep illithid (I'll find you yet, you slimey bastich!)
Wooly Rupert Posted - 18 Apr 2018 : 03:56:08
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

you mean like the golarion npc of the same name.......



Baba Yaga is from real world legends; according to the Wikipedia entry on Baba Yaga, references to her go back at least 250 years.

She's also been in pretty much every flavor of D&D.

Golarion and Midgard both have her as NPCs; in the latter, the gnomes have turned to the 11 Hells to protect them from Baba Yaga.

She was in the World of Darkness, too; IIRC, she was a 3rd generation vampire and was pretty much the most powerful supernatural entity in all of Russia.

The Iron Kingdoms doesn't include Baba Yaga, but it's pretty clear that the Old Witch is based very heavily on her.

Those are just the appearances I'm familiar with. I'm sure she's been in a lot of other games.
moonbeast Posted - 18 Apr 2018 : 03:45:40
I like Baba Yaga's museum (trophy room) best. The one located inside her hut.

Baba's showroom even contained a WW2 Soviet tank. How many Faerunian super-NPCs can boast that?!

Dragon Magazine #83.
Storyteller Hero Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 01:13:37
Candlekeep could be considered a museum of sorts, given all the rare and historical books likely to be found within.

:)



Bragi Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 00:56:24
I have a large non-cannon museum created in my campaign located within the city of Chrysalis. As entire populations of elves fled the Ityak-Ortheel and found refuge in Synnoria they would bring with them precious reminders of their destroyed settlements. Selected possessions from these refugee elves are now stored in a museum within the city. Most of the items were donated to the city as an offering of thanks to the Llewyrr elves. The museum was destroyed in 1365 DR but later rebuilt.Here is the journal entry when my players were in the city.

http://www.epicwords.com/entries/30435
Gelcur Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 05:24:44
First thing that came to mind was the Hall of Wonders in Baldur's Gate.

It is a museum and shop, probably closer to what we would consider a science museum. Still it has an entrance fee of 4 sp and has things on display. People come from far around to see and take notes / get ideas. Some items are for purchase to high coin buyers.
Markustay Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 04:49:38
True.

In Black Panther, that one museum piece turned into quite a ruckus (and like I said, its because they 'got it wrong', and really had no idea what it was).

On another note, the one and only 'classic dungeon' I ever created and ran in 3e was a museum built by a mad mage centuries past (based very loosely on Castle Greyhawk and Zagyg the mad mage). It even had restrooms.
LordofBones Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 03:18:17
I don't know, it's all fun and games right until that piece of broken crockery turns out to be the seal on Thingamabob the All-Devourer's tomb, or some ancient elven pornographic lithograph turns out to be an incantation that releases Hubbahubba the Ridiculously Endowed, Drainer of Men, from her slumber in the Abyss.
Lord Karsus Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 01:42:40
-Don't mention the war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0
Markustay Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 23:37:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Pretty much the only way to have a museum in the Realms, I think, would be to have one sponsored by the state or by a church, because they'd have the money to run such a profitless venture.

And then there would definitely be an 'agenda' attached to the dispalys...

"And here we have an axe from the ebil barbarian horde... who's lands we annexed hundreds of years ago. Hanging on the wall is one of their brutal tribal standards... the dark brown stains is there blood..."

Not only is History "written by the winners", the museums are built by them as well. The idea of flaunting 'trophies' of defeated enemies in front of your populace is as old as humans, but the Romans took it to a whole 'nother level. Or did you think the stuffed animals at the museums didn't start out as trophies being displayed by 'big game hunters' proving their manhood?

The displays of neanderthals making fire? That just helps us feel superior. Its psychological conditioning is all, and a lot of it is probably faked (or at least, they have to 'make up' the stories around stuff, because they don't actually know the truth... no-one does). Not that I don't love going to museums and related shows as much as i can myself, you just have to remain aware that none of it is real. Last summer I was looking forward to this 'Viking Show' in NYC, and went with my sons. As I read the displays, I realized every single object being shown was a reproduction - none of it was real. A lot of it based upon fragments found. In other words, it was all 'made up'.

Keep that in mind when you go to a museum - its just a very grand work of fiction designed to impress and make you feel good about your place in the world. I once worked for a British WW2 veteran, and we were talking about the war, or rather, my version of it I learned in school. Then he showed me a British history book... everything was different. In that, we barely played a part and THEY won the war. That's how it works - no-one knows the truth of anything because everyone puts their spin on it. Even museums.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 23:21:29
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Plus, it's kind of hard to get excited over a 2000 year old piece of broken crockery, when you can actually talk to someone who is 2000 years old.



Not everyone has access to such ancient beings, even Elves rarely live 2,000 years.

Besides Realms history is far older then 2,000 years, imagine the interest a dinner plate from an ancient Sarrukh Empire would gain, an Empire that existed before Dragons even walked across the world, bwfore the first Sundering.



Who would be interested in that, though, aside from a scholar? Most people in the Realms wouldn't know what a sarrukh was if one walked up and bit them in the backside.

I'd expect there would be a lot more private collections than anything approaching a museum, because most people aren't going to have much use for a museum, and few would be willing to travel beyond their own city to go to one.

Pretty much the only way to have a museum in the Realms, I think, would be to have one sponsored by the state or by a church, because they'd have the money to run such a profitless venture.
Lord Karsus Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 23:16:04
-We're in the know, but I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that even most scholars in the Realms are unaware that such races/nations/groups/individuals in antiquity existed.

-Look at the older stuff in Evermeet. It's a collection of myths going back some 25,000 years ago, recorded and kept by an extremely long-lived race that, in the mainstream of Sun and Moon Elven culture, put an emphasis on ancestry and history and all of that. That earlier stuff is basically very light on many specifics and details, only giving us the general narratives.

-I would think that, when it comes to races/nations/groups/individuals that are even older, or more secretive, or have pretty much no evidence left of their existence, even most scholars would be unaware of their existence, or if aware, have very little information about them, let alone physical artifacts.
Gyor Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 22:50:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Plus, it's kind of hard to get excited over a 2000 year old piece of broken crockery, when you can actually talk to someone who is 2000 years old.



Not everyone has access to such ancient beings, even Elves rarely live 2,000 years.

Besides Realms history is far older then 2,000 years, imagine the interest a dinner plate from an ancient Sarrukh Empire would gain, an Empire that existed before Dragons even walked across the world, bwfore the first Sundering.
Markustay Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 22:24:59
Plus, it's kind of hard to get excited over a 2000 year old piece of broken crockery, when you can actually talk to someone who is 2000 years old.
Lord Karsus Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 20:49:39
-Museums as we have them now are probably very rare or non-existent. More common would be stuff like private collections closed to the public (owned by royalty, nobles, the elite, etc.). If I had a guess, the most access that common people would have to big collections would probably be traveling carnivals and things like that. Traveling collections of wares and oddities from elsewhere.
Markustay Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 20:30:07
The various chapter houses of the Adventurer's Guild should have their own, from their own member's exploits. Royal palaces should also have their own museum-rooms, or at least, BE museums themselves (with banners, suits of armor, famous swords, etc., all on display all over). A major university might have them, but as for 'private' ones, that kind of stuff tends to be considered 'treasure' and gets sold into private collections, so it would be rather hard for them to arise in a typical fantasy setting (with murder-hobos).

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