| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gyor |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 03:05:04
It occurred to me that Selvetarm would not be a member of the Drow Pantheon when he was first born, he likely would have been worshipped by the Elf and Half Elves of the Yuirwood, given that was where he was born. Maybe in Mulhorand as well to a lesser extent.
I figure it was only after meeting his Aunt that he started looking for worshippers among Drow, which only grew stronger once he killed the demon lord and ended up Lloths consort.
Now he is a member of the Dark Seldarine.
Still we assume Selvetarm is an Elvish name, but what if it's actually Mulhorandi?
Also given that Bast had no ability to leave the material plane (and maybe the echo planes) until the time of troubles, that suggests that Selvetarm was raised on the Material Plane. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 19:22:21
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Yes, if only Rich Baker had listened to Eric and I and dated the (first) Sundering in c.-24000 DR like we asked him to - then everything works much better. You have the elven city states of Atorrnash (dark), Occidian (gold) and Sharlarion (moon) that exist before the Sundering and then the great elven realms that form after. His (still unexplained) choice of -17600 DR is very problematic given the dates in Cormanthyr. Oh well, c'est la Realms and designers who know best.
-- George Krashos
Well, he is no longer on-staff there, and AFAIK has nothing to do with D&D anymore, so we can probably just ignore that dating and call it an error, if the -24,000 DR date fixes stuff better.
I agree with you that a better, newer (with REAL illustrations actually MADE for the book!) GHotR should be published. So much more could have been accomplished there. Also, with the 4e/5e prehistory-lore 'in hindsight', they can add a lot of the proto-history into the beginning ('the Time Before time') and merge with the stuff on the Creator Races (leves/fey and humans are mentioned, but not the others, and we still don't really have enough of the Giant/Dragon wars - we could finally iron all of that out, even if it means shifting some stufa around).
I am completely okay with tweaking the timeline in a few places (especially in regards to those truly ancient events) if it means we could finally have perfected FR timeline with no contradictions of huge 'plotholes'.
And maps, of course. With me doing the 'sciency' pre-maps and Mike Schley producing the final work (he is a FAR better artist, but he doesn't have the grasp of RW science - and FR lore - I feel is needed to create accurate historical maps for the setting). We would probably need a 'merged world' map showing Abeir-Toril before it was sundered, and that would be a monumental work.
You know, if we stuck the earliest parts of that conflict back before The Sundering, that would make the most sense. Thus, the giant kingdoms and draconic empires mentioned in their stories/myths can all be placed on the Abeir-Toril map, and we wouldn't have to worry about conflicts, because much of that terrain would have gotten shunted off to Abeir after the split.
I almost feel like starting another map... ALMOST.
But even I'm not that nuts. 
Anyhow, that means whatever giants and dragons were left on Toril after the Sundering would just be an 'echo' of their former glory, and that would cover the strangeness of them telling tales about their 'vast, warring empires', even though we see little evidence of that (or where they even might have been).
Would it be possibly to spread the Sundering out? I just thought of this so go ahead and shoot holes in it. I mean, I doubt even an Overpower could just snap its fingers and create perfectly balanced biosystems on two separate worlds instantly. Plus, he may have been experimenting with 'what goes where' - sometimes unforeseen things happen and you have to rethink your placements (as a gamer, I am very familiar with this - this not only is the very basis of wargames, but it becomes a never-ending quest for the 'perfect setup' in sim-type games). So what if Ao began building Abeir out of Toril in -24,000 DR, and it wasn't finalized until -17,600 DR? Would that help us? Anything 'removed' from Toril could have been stored in the side=-plane of Abeir, which could have had a stasis-like effect on it until he completed his work. When he was all done with is work, he could have just 'flipped a switch' and 'turned the lights on', as it were (thus, beings that vanished from Toril over 7000 years earlier suddenly 'wake-up' on their new world... quite confused). |
| Gyor |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 17:26:52
Keptolo has nothing to do with Vhaerun, he's a foppish consort God to Lolth, a far more willing one then Selvetarm.
And he hasn't shown up in FR, at least until now perhaps, we will see if MTOF adds Keptolo to FR along with other Drow deities like that Drow Scorpion God from Eberron. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 03:07:07
Yes, if only Rich Baker had listened to Eric and I and dated the (first) Sundering in c.-24000 DR like we asked him to - then everything works much better. You have the elven city states of Atorrnash (dark), Occidian (gold) and Sharlarion (moon) that exist before the Sundering and then the great elven realms that form after. His (still unexplained) choice of -17600 DR is very problematic given the dates in Cormanthyr. Oh well, c'est la Realms and designers who know best.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 02:00:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ka'narlist was a follower of Ghaunadaur, and he wasn't really the king of Ilythiir (that I recall, it's been a long time), but one of the rulers of Atornash. <snip>
Your take, Irennan, is precisely what I thought when I read Elaine's novel. However, the GHotR ran with the idea of Ka'Narlist and made him the 'king of Ilythiir'*. I personally didn't care for that, but it is what it is.
I just checked, and the GHotR actually does not say precisely that - it says Attornash became the capital of Ilythiir in the -27000DR entry. Now, since that is BEFORE the Gold elves meet Ka'Narlist, and he is the supreme ruler of Attornash at that time, one has to assume the guy completely in charge of their capital is indeed their 'King'. And he is their king - and Lolth's lover - when he dies later in the Evermeet novel. I suppose you could come up with some sort of weird scenario in which he was the tyrant of the capitol city and yet somehow not the King of the rest of the empire, but I think Occam's Razor should apply here - if he's ruling the capitol city, he's the King.
Not necessary. London and Washington DC both have mayors that run the town, and don't do anything on a national level.
Honestly, I can't see Ka'Narlist caring about running a nation. That kind of thing takes time and energy that could be spent elsewhere. Actually, I don't see him even running the town as much as he's got everyone jumping at his command, but he only worries about his own needs. He could run the town if he wanted, and since everyone jumps to his every whim, he is technically running it -- but he leaves the actual administrative stuff to others, so long as he's taken care of. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 22:23:09
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ka'narlist was a follower of Ghaunadaur, and he wasn't really the king of Ilythiir (that I recall, it's been a long time), but one of the rulers of Atornash. <snip>
Your take, Irennan, is precisely what I thought when I read Elaine's novel. However, the GHotR ran with the idea of Ka'Narlist and made him the 'king of Ilythiir'*. I personally didn't care for that, but it is what it is.
I just checked, and the GHotR actually does not say precisely that - it says Attornash became the capital of Ilythiir in the -27000DR entry. Now, since that is BEFORE the Gold elves meet Ka'Narlist, and he is the supreme ruler of Attornash at that time, one has to assume the guy completely in charge of their capital is indeed their 'King'. And he is their king - and Lolth's lover - when he dies later in the Evermeet novel. I suppose you could come up with some sort of weird scenario in which he was the tyrant of the capitol city and yet somehow not the King of the rest of the empire, but I think Occam's Razor should apply here - if he's ruling the capitol city, he's the King.
On the other hand, outside of the GHotR, Elaine made it appear that the dark elves were a very loose 'confederation' of citystates, at best, with different leaders for each city, and each having their own religions, etc. I personally feel that entry in the GHotR was a mistake, but its canon now. Somehow one city - no matter how great - became 'the capitol' in that source. Even though Elaine's story quite clearly stated that he rules just that one city and didn't really give a damn about anyone else (because the GHotR entry now makes the encounters and lore revolving around Eilistraee and Vhaeraun questionable).
The best 'fix' I can offer - after Lolth discovers Toril and makes Ka'Narlist her consort, she has him seize the other autonomous Ilythiir cities and then it goes from a 'loose confederacy;' to an actual empire. The entry in -27,000 was 'painting broad strokes', and wasn't being very specific: Attornish was "the shining beacon of elf culture for millennia", and then became "The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash". Simply by switching the one sentence around it makes so much more sense, in regards to the novel. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 21:01:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have all the reason in this world. Kiaransalee's reason is that she is a deity of vengeance, and Lolth managed to defeat and gain control over her in the Abyss, so it makes sense for her to want to take revenge.
Her story as a lich queen might not make sense to you, but has been her canon story since the very beginning.
Eilistrae should pitty Lloth for her fall (corrption) and hope for her redemption as well as of all drows.
Vhaerun was directly involved in Lloth's take-over attemtp so he has not much of a reason to hate her as he helped his mother and they failed. He still holds on to the original idea of drow supremancy so there is only some differnce with his mother on how to go about it now. He represent the archetype of drow rebel/thief and is still welcomed in Lloth's court in Deamonweb Pits.
Eilistraee does want to save *all* drow, she shared their fate and became one of them *just* for that, out of love. However, Lolth is different. She is the cause of all their pain, she *chose* to be the cause of that, she treats her followers worse than you would treat the lowliest cattle, she actively prevents them to develop merely to keep them as her playthings. She draws pleasure from all this. I'm sure that if there was a chance to change Lolth, Eilistraee would be really happy about it, but the thing is that Eilistraee still needs to oppose Lolth, open the drow's eyes to their condition, take them away from her mother's web and to an actually happy life. She can't simply leave things as they are merely hoping that Lolth could be changed.
Vhaeraun might have once been Lolth's ally, but he now hates her guts. He has all the reasons to because of what I said about Eilistraee. Lolth actively impairs any and all drow development, she purposefully keep them down with strife and infighting (and I mean, this is actually canon, explicitly stated in the sourcebooks) in order for them to remain her playtoys. Vhaeraun, who wants and actually strong drow people, *must* oppose his mother to achieve that result.
quote:
For Kieransalee - do you know of any other undead diety that is controled by other diety (Velsharoon serves willingly and even changed his patron)? For me it is very unusual form of servitude between gods and that sparked my interst. It would be very sad if ie Bane could come to Velsharoon (lich) and say "Command Undead"...
Kiaransalee was defeated by Lolth in the Abyss and had to bend to her in order to not be destroyed. Things have changed, and she is now Lolth's enemy, but she still holds a grudge for that (pretty reasonable, since she's a deity of vengeance).
quote:
For Selvetarm himself - he would have to be a very naive for a god to take the Lloth's bait and devour a demon. Possibly it came too be when he was still only a demigod without deeper understanding of his divine status.
Selvetarm hates Lolth because he knows what she did to him. I would want to see him actually act on that. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 20:19:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have all the reason in this world. Kiaransalee's reason is that she is a deity of vengeance, and Lolth managed to defeat and gain control over her in the Abyss, so it makes sense for her to want to take revenge.
Her story as a lich queen might not make sense to you, but has been her canon story since the very beginning.
Eilistrae should pitty Lloth for her fall (corrption) and hope for her redemption as well as of all drows.
Vhaerun was directly involved in Lloth's take-over attemtp so he has not much of a reason to hate her as he helped his mother and they failed. He still holds on to the original idea of drow supremancy so there is only some differnce with his mother on how to go about it now.
He represent the archetype of drow rebel/thief and is still welcomed in Lloth's court in Deamonweb Pits.
Vhaeraun hates Lolth as much as Eilistraee does. Even when they were "allies", they weren't exactly on friendly terms, and now they're enemies. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 20:08:13
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have all the reason in this world. Kiaransalee's reason is that she is a deity of vengeance, and Lolth managed to defeat and gain control over her in the Abyss, so it makes sense for her to want to take revenge.
Her story as a lich queen might not make sense to you, but has been her canon story since the very beginning.
Eilistrae should pitty Lloth for her fall (corrption) and hope for her redemption as well as of all drows.
Vhaerun was directly involved in Lloth's take-over attemtp so he has not much of a reason to hate her as he helped his mother and they failed. He still holds on to the original idea of drow supremancy so there is only some differnce with his mother on how to go about it now.
He represent the archetype of drow rebel/thief and is still welcomed in Lloth's court in Deamonweb Pits.
For Kieransalee - do you know of any other undead diety that is controled by other diety (Velsharoon serves willingly and even changed his patron)? For me it is very unusual form of servitude between gods and that sparked my interst. It would be very sad if ie Bane could come to Velsharoon (lich) and say "Command Undead"...
For Selvetarm himself - he would have to be a very naive for a god to take the Lloth's bait and devour a demon. Possibly it came too be when he was still only a demigod without deeper understanding of his divine status. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 31 Mar 2018 : 20:20:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
How? Unless you meant that this is your own lore (that is perfectly acceptable), all of that is clearly not the case in canon (and Kiaransalee has always been drow, that I know, while Vhaeraun has never been dominated or transformed by Lolth).
Yes that is my own conjecture. AFAIK there is very little information about Kieransalee. Whole story about being necromacer queen that anihilated whole world seemed silly to me so I tought about who she could be and why is she undead as a god. Her portfolios are drow, hate, revenge and undead. She hate Lloth so there should be a link. For Selvetarm it is said he is son of Vhaerun but I haven't found a mother or disregarded that blank notion. Than this connection slipped into my mind and it fits.
I have never said that Vhaerun was dominated or transformed. That was about Kieransalee and Selvetarm. He is a poor sod that hates his mother for how he played him but cannot move against her. In contrast Eilistrea openly states her opposition and is OK. If you think about those other drow gods in general they have very little reason to do stuff they do.
Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have all the reason in this world. Kiaransalee's reason is that she is a deity of vengeance, and Lolth managed to defeat and gain control over her in the Abyss, so it makes sense for her to want to take revenge.
Her story as a lich queen might not make sense to you, but has been her canon story since the very beginning. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 31 Mar 2018 : 20:13:33
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
How? Unless you meant that this is your own lore (that is perfectly acceptable), all of that is clearly not the case in canon (and Kiaransalee has always been drow, that I know, while Vhaeraun has never been dominated or transformed by Lolth).
Yes that is my own conjecture. AFAIK there is very little information about Kieransalee. Whole story about being necromacer queen that anihilated whole world seemed silly to me so I tought about who she could be and why is she undead as a god. Her portfolios are drow, hate, revenge and undead. She hate Lloth so there should be a link. For Selvetarm it is said he is son of Vhaerun but I haven't found a mother or disregarded that blank notion. Than this connection slipped into my mind and it fits.
I have never said that Vhaerun was dominated or transformed. That was about Kieransalee and Selvetarm. He is a poor sod that hates his mother for how he played him but cannot move against her. In contrast Eilistrea openly states her opposition and is OK. If you think about those other drow gods in general they have very little reason to do stuff they do. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 29 Mar 2018 : 02:42:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would say that Keptolo was a GH aspect of Vhaeraun that went very, VERY wrong.
-If it is Vhaeraun, it'd be Kleptolo. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 22:53:52
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Poor Keptolo, forgotten again.
You know whats weird? I read this yesterday, and was like, "Who's Keptolo?" But I didn't bother to look it up.
So today I am looking for connections between giantish deities, and the trail leads me to Zinzerena, who stole power from Keptolo... 
Weird, huh?
I would say that Keptolo was a GH aspect of Vhaeraun that went very, VERY wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Right now my head is combining Satan with Peter Griffon to create my version of Corellon. Its NOT pretty.
LOL, I have no clue how THAT imagery for Corellon came into your head, but I'm LITERALLY laughing out loud right now. Peter Griffon with a pitchfork.... I'm picturing him scratching his @ss with it.
Its a little difficult to explain. I was thinking about what a total douche Corellon is, and how he has a 'harem' that he (forces, in my mind) to 'merge together' into one super-chick for his personal pleasure. So two scenes popped into my head simultaneously. From the TV show Family Guy, the episode where Peter has to go for Sensitivity training. There's a scene where he tells the two women to hug each other, "... that's good, now rub her back. Yeaaaah... you know you like that. It's okay to like it..." THAT SCENE (because he's telling multiple woman what to do for his own pleasure).
And the other is from the movie End of Days, which was pretty craptastic except for the Satan sex scene involving a mother/daughter, and for some reason The Devil thought it would be a good idea to merge them into one (because an archfiend isn't all that creative/inventive in bed?) I don't understand that scene at all, and yet, its the only memorable part of the movie. Satan gets every guy's ***dream and he decides he doesn't want that. Go figure.
So that's how I get Peter-as-the-devil (as Corellon) inside my head. It was just a momentary clustering of random elf-hate.  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 05:13:10
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Lol, I meant the Mordenkainen book that they're going to release soon.
Ka'narlist was a follower of Ghaunadaur, and he wasn't really the king of Ilythiir (that I recall, it's been a long time), but one of the rulers of Atornash. However, it was only him that was seduced back then, and she didn't really do anything with him but bearing. Vhaeraun and Ghaundaur were the relevant deities in Ilythiir, and I doubt that a single mage in a single city would have changed that. In any case, I'm sure that Lolth took his soul and started acting only when Atornash was destroyed with the First Sundering (alongside old Ilythiir, demolishing the status quo that had Vhaeraun as the main Ilythiiri god. Ghaunadaur came after him, and Eilistraee was also there trying to prevent the dark elves from falling under their influence, but she and her followers were persecuted there, according to Evermeet).
Lolth got a hold on their nobility only during the second Crown War, thanks to the Sethomiir ruling house. Only after that, she was finally worshiped alongside the other members of the Dark Seldarine.
-That's all right, but it's worth noting two little factoids:
However it happened, Ka'Narlist and Lolth supposedly had children, and they certainly would have been Lolthites, so even at that early, early point, she is starting to cultivate a following. They aren't exercising any kind of real political power that we know of yet. Of course, given that it's Evermeet, stories of such offspring simply could be Elven stories explaining why Drow are inherently evil/bad/etc., like of like how the Lady Penitent books went with tainted blood and all that.
Ka'Narlist seemingly underwent Lichdom at some point, and when he perished, his spirit went into a pearl that has since long been lost to the sands of time (meaning he could still be out there!) |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 05:10:31
Poor Keptolo, forgotten again. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 05:01:18
-Selvetarm, eh, not too interesting. His clergy? They're pretty cool. It's hard not to appreciate berserkers who grow their dreadlocks with the blood of their enemies. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 03:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Right now my head is combining Satan with Peter Griffon to create my version of Corellon. Its NOT pretty.
LOL, I have no clue how THAT imagery for Corellon came into your head, but I'm LITERALLY laughing out loud right now. Peter Griffon with a pitchfork.... I'm picturing him scratching his @ss with it. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 02:52:26
Lol, I meant the Mordenkainen book that they're going to release soon.
Ka'narlist was a follower of Ghaunadaur, and he wasn't really the king of Ilythiir (that I recall, it's been a long time), but one of the rulers of Atornash. However, it was only him that was seduced back then, and she didn't really do anything with him but bearing. Vhaeraun and Ghaundaur were the relevant deities in Ilythiir, and I doubt that a single mage in a single city would have changed that. In any case, I'm sure that Lolth took his soul and started acting only when Atornash was destroyed with the First Sundering (alongside old Ilythiir, demolishing the status quo that had Vhaeraun as the main Ilythiiri god. Ghaunadaur came after him, and Eilistraee was also there trying to prevent the dark elves from falling under their influence, but she and her followers were persecuted there, according to Evermeet).
Lolth got a hold on their nobility only during the second Crown War, thanks to the Sethomiir ruling house. Only after that, she was finally worshiped alongside the other members of the Dark Seldarine. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 02:36:01
MToF? Mark Taylor of Faerūn? They finally wrote a sourcebook about me! 
But yeah, 100% agree. I've always liked Vhaeraun because he isn't silly-evil, nor is he weak-evil. He's believable evil... and that's what makes him relatable. He'll do the right thing... most of the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
This is even an objective truth, as historacally Lolth used, and took over the originally mostly Vhaeraun worshipping Ilythiiri, which lead to the transformation of Dark Elves into Drow...
Not really, tho. Lolth didn't use Vhaeraun, and she doesn't use him now. Back then, she had to compete with him. She had very little influence, and she started getting more only after The First Sundering (that, incidentally, killed so many followers of Vhaeraun and wrecked the then current order of things, sort of evening the playing field and offering a new opportunity to Lolth). Even then, she had a very niche base among nobles, and it wasn't until the Crown Wars that she managed to get a hold on the rulers of Ilythiir.
When you think about it, it kinda is ironic how the actions of the elves damaged Lolth's kids (the Dark Disaster for Eilistraee) and gave Lolth more and more room to act.
Actually, from Elaine Cunningham's novel - Lolth seduced K'narlist(sp?), who ruled over his people with an iron fist. So, she probably just made him force his people to worship her instead (upon threat of death).
We don't know what would have happened if she wasn't able to manipulate their King that way. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 00:11:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I haven't read-through all of the resposes sine my last one, but I am interested in the topic of Vhaeraun's personalty.
I actually see him as something more akin to Jamie Lannister in GoT (and NO, that DOES NOT make Eilistraee Cersei!!!) In other words, whereas Eilistraee is VERY 'moalr', Vhaeraun is very Amoral. That doesn't make him evil, but he is full capable of committing evil acts. He is selfish and self-absorbed, and will stop at nothing to ahieve his goals, buuuuuut... some of his goals are not all that evil. In fact, just like Jamie Lannister, there is a whole 'greater good' thing going on there (and I am currently watching Shanarra on netflix, so we have that with the druid, Allanon (he will hurt people he likes/loves to 'save the world').
So Vhaeraun wants to 'save the Droow', but he wants to save them to fit into an image he creates (with males dominant instead), so his 'good' is tainted by self-interest. Unlike Eilistraee, who want to save the Drow for themselves, even if it means sacrificing herself to do so.
I've been spinning Corellon and the elves as pure evil for years - even going so far as to say Asmodeus is an aspect of Corellon in one theory - so I would probably enjoy Lisa Smedman's take on things (because I also sometimes think of Lolth as 'the good guy', or rather, just [i]the better parent). However, I won't read that series because it would just confuse things - I happen to like Eilistraee, even though she still likes Corellon (good women always have bad taste LOL). I think of Eilistraee as very similar to how Araushnee probably was at first, and then something happened, and she turned into a jealous, vengeful hag. Eilistraee is like the good of Araushnee preserved.
Right now my head is combining Satan with Peter Griffon to create my version of Corellon. Its NOT pretty.
Vhaeraun is how interesting villains should be, IMHO. Characters with goals and personality that are nuanced, even relatable, that have a point, and yet are still tainted by some off-putting aspect of their personality--be it selfishness, total lack of compassion, god-complex (although that's pretty justified for Vhaeraun), etc... Plus, he is reasonable. He is explicitly said to be willing to compromise, when it comes to the greter good of the drow (read: getting rid of Lolth)
It's also the reason why I like that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are no longer fighting each other, after their return. Or that's in Ed's lore, we have yet to see if WotC will keep their newfound truce. It won't be long till the MToF comes out.
I also like how you think of Eilistraee as sharing all that was good in Araushnee before she went mad. I too did something similar, and I had them sort of reconcile after a huge series of events that my players shaped in my campaign. But then my take on Araushnee, Corellon, the elves, and the fey in general, is very different from what they are in canon.
I don't think that you'd like Smedman's work, given what you said. Not only because she throws mud all over Eilistraee, but because when I said that Lolth can almost be spun as the good guy, I meant to say that the other members of the Dark Seldarine are not that much of an improvement over her (even Eilistraee often comes off as a reskinned Lolth that is fighting her mother just to impose her view of how things should work to the drow, using them as pawns without much regard for the individuals, pretty much like Lolth does. In fact, the metaphor used by the author is precisely that, but it has nothing to do with Eilistraee. She is in truth all about helping the drow rediscovering the joy of life that they have forgotten, and helping them find their own path. She helps them in their everyday life, but she is very careful of always leaving them free to choose, because their choices must come from their understanding and seeing what life can be). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 23:50:00
I haven't read-through all of the resposes since my last post, but I am interested in the topic of Vhaeraun's personalty.
I actually see him as something more akin to Jamie Lannister in GoT (and NO, that DOES NOT make Eilistraee Cersei!!!) In other words, whereas Eilistraee is VERY 'moalr', Vhaeraun is very Amoral. That doesn't make him evil, but he is full capable of committing evil acts. He is selfish and self-absorbed, and will stop at nothing to ahieve his goals, buuuuuut... some of his goals are not all that evil. In fact, just like Jamie Lannister, there is a whole 'greater good' thing going on there (and I am currently watching Shanarra on netflix, so we have that with the druid, Allanon (he will hurt people he likes/loves to 'save the world').
So Vhaeraun wants to 'save the Droow', but he wants to save them to fit into an image he creates (with males dominant instead), so his 'good' is tainted by self-interest. Unlike Eilistraee, who want to save the Drow for themselves, even if it means sacrificing herself to do so.
I've been spinning Corellon and the elves as pure evil for years - even going so far as to say Asmodeus is an aspect of Corellon in one theory - so I would probably enjoy Lisa Smedman's take on things (because I also sometimes think of Lolth as 'the good guy', or rather, just [i]the better parent). However, I won't read that series because it would just confuse things - I happen to like Eilistraee, even though she still likes Corellon (good women always have bad taste LOL). I think of Eilistraee as very similar to how Araushnee probably was at first, and then something happened, and she turned into a jealous, vengeful hag. Eilistraee is like the good of Araushnee preserved.
Right now my head is combining Satan with Peter Griffon to create my version of Corellon. Its NOT pretty. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 22:56:26
Ah, I now get what you meant about Ilythiir (or Vhaeraun's followers in general). Even though it still wasn't manipulation on Lolth's side as much as Vhaeraun doing that on his own. However, I still wouldn't say that they are similar, at least not more than the followers of any evil deity are similar to Lolth. And yes, ofc, Lolth wants Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to fight each other, that's what I meant by saying that their new truce is out of mutual convenience, but it's interesting that Ed talked about friendship and deep understanding (and that shows more human reasons, and a more human side, that was sorely lacking in the LP/WotSQ books).
In any case, this thread was supposed to be about Selvetarm's childhood, which we have nearly no info about except what was already said. I hope that WotC's upcoming book will give us more info about that, and maybe some updates (that book has been confirmed to include writeups of the whole drow pantheon). I honestly want to see Selvetarm become more nuanced. He went from someone close to Eilistraee straight down to mad demon-like guy, and there he stayed. He resents Lolth, so I see him trying to break free at some point. I also could never picture Eilistraee--who can see the spark even in the most wretched priestess of Lolth--giving up someone so close to her and that she took under her wing. In the same way, I don't either see Vhaeraun being ok with not stirring his son against Lolth. It would be cool if Selvetarm was actually given some agency and managed to switch sides, or at least go his own way like he did in his childhood. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 22:28:07
Irennan
- Well, I agree there are differences between Vhaeraun and Lolth's worshippers, but both faiths are supremacist - as Vhaeraun wants drow, or just elves, rule over all others and both condone cruell behaviour towards others. Yes, Vhaeraun is DEFINITELLY against infighting (which Lolth seemingly quite likes, and even herself causes at times), but he isn't exactly against his worshippers commiting cruell actions towards others (inlcuding at times at least, drow that don't worship him), and even order his worshippers to do it. Which is why I wrote in "many ways doesnt differ from the Loltite society", not in most, but there are enough similarites, to call them many.
With Vhaeraun, about Ilythiiri, maybe I worded it bad - by take over, I meant taking over Ilythiiri in control over their civilsation (Ilythiir) during Crown Wars (altgough Lolth cult visibly grew since after First Sundering allready), rather than she then allready being worshipped by the visible majority of the population.
But Lolth achieved it, in part thanks to the society Vhaeraun helped to create, or at least he and his priesthood allowed to become.
There are reasons why Lolth didn't grew to prominence in Miyeritar.
Although it's somewhat clear the latter Crown Wars were visibly manipulated by Lolth, as her Heads I Win, Tails You Lose type of plan - if Ilythiir won, Faerun was pretty Lolth's, and how they lost, pretty much gaveLolth the dark elves, including those from Miyeritar.
I think it's implied Malkizid, if unkowingly was still used by Lolth, seeing his corruption of the Vyshaan, did help Lolth to get drow almost pretty much for herself.
And yes, I agree Eilistraee never really hated her brother (or nephew) (as Eilistraee only hates their mother, and she sees both Vhaeraun and Selvetarm as redeemable), but I think this also goes to kinda further prove my point by also going against his sister in the past, Vhaeraun helped Lolth, by weaking both of them, and also many of the actions he allowed or advocated for his worshippers didn't exactly endear him to other enemies of Lolth, except Shar who is comparably bad as Lolth...
Again, I just got the impression that pointing this out, that he and Eilistraee fighting, is exactly wat Lolth hopes for, and some other stuff I mention, was what conviced Vhaeraun to end hs conflict with Eilistraee, and ally with his sister.
Also, Lolth wouldn't keep her promises, if the Demon Weave plan succeded? As I got the impression she would - I've read only sumeries of this plotline though, but I may be wrong.
Yes, going back her promises like this is a s*it thing to do, but seeing it no longer had ant gain for Lolth, it was in her character, and something to be expected of her (and many evil aligned powers...) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 21:09:05
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
As I saw fans, based on stuff from mostly Spider Queen, and The Lady Penitent book serieses, want to present him as more sympathetic than his sister, which really isn't the case.
You could use those novels (actually, all of Smedman's work about the drow--she's the only author that does this) to make Lolth appear like the good guy (or not particularly bad, compared to the opposition) and Vhaeraun like a clueless hothead. Eilistraee does indeed appear as a *very* unlikable goddess in those books, because her character is entirely warped, in addition to so many lore mistakes scattered across the books. Actions associated with her or her followers are merciless, brutal, militaristic, hypocritical to the core, or even outright evil and tyrannical.
That's for a character that is intended by her creator to be so strong on compassion and to bring joy and beauty even in the darkest abyss. The goal associated with Eilistraee has also nothing to do with what she stands for.
Then again, according to Perkins, that was part of the goal that WotC had in mind with those books, in order to make Drizzt look "more special" aside from reducing the number of deities. However, as I've already said, those novels have been ignored and essentially retconned. It's nearly as if they never happened, so arguments based on them don't really work.
quote:
Vhaeraun's worshippers, outside of equality of sexes, in many ways doesnt differ from the Loltite society.
They're definitely different, as far as I can see. Vhaeraun condemns infighting and internal strife, he wants a united drow race, much like Eilistraee does, but for very different goals, and united by very different principles or emotions. Lolth wants the drow to be consumed by strife.
quote:
And the thing is - Lolth even seemingly that egainst equality between sexes. With the Demon Weave plan, she would give the (majorly male) arcane spellcasters, a position equall to Priestesses of Lolth. The female supremacy among drow, is seemingly in part to cause inequality, and strife, for the sake conflict.
Those promises turned out to be a scam in the end. Gromph was incredibly pissed because of that.
quote:
In many ways, unknowingly, Vhaeraun is still in some capacity Lolth's pawn.
This is even an objective truth, as historacally Lolth used, and took over the originally mostly Vhaeraun worshipping Ilythiiri, which lead to the transformation of Dark Elves into Drow...
Not really, tho. Lolth didn't use Vhaeraun, and she doesn't use him now. Back then, she had to compete with him. She had very little influence, and she started getting more only after The First Sundering (that, incidentally, killed so many followers of Vhaeraun and wrecked the then current order of things, sort of evening the playing field and offering a new opportunity to Lolth). Even then, she had a very niche base among nobles, and it wasn't until the Crown Wars that she managed to get a hold on the rulers of Ilythiir.
When you think about it, it kinda is ironic how the actions of the elves damaged Lolth's kids (the Dark Disaster for Eilistraee) and gave Lolth more and more room to act.
quote:
I think Eilistraee conviced Vhaeraun to join forces with her, pointing out he still is used by their mother, by preseting for example what I pointed out above.
I think the realisation he never escaped Lolth's web of manipulation, would shock Vhaeraun enough to reconsider his plans, and change his outlook somewhat, as well decide to fuse with his sister, to finally make a difference against their mother.
Eilistraee and Vhaeraun never fused (and that's not needed to make a difference, they could just join forces). Eilistraee simply borrowed his portfolios for a while (including the drow males one). Ed shed further light on this, by explaining that, when Vhaeraun attacked, Eilistraee defeated him with the indirect help of Mystra, but that she spared him. Afterwards, Vhaeraun was convinced to take part to a plan with Mystra, to ensure that all 3 deities would survive to the Spellplague that Mystra had foreseen. Things didn't exactly go as planned, but the plan sort of worked by letting Mystra, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survive, and allowing the two siblings to re-emerge after the restoration of the Weave (each holding their own portfolio).
Vhaeraun has now indeed changed his outlook, even if slightly, and has agreed to a truce with his sister, but I think that it's more out of mutual convenience. That said, we know that Eilistraee never hated her brother, she mourns his cruelty, and Ed did indeed say that post-return, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have a new reciprocal understanding and even friendship. So I guess that there must be some deeper reason for their truce other than that convenience. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 20:06:04
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
But Ed himself has stated on numerous occasions that deities lie, priests lie, churches lie, and they are all mysterious liars so you can never be sure what is true. Plus interactive deities are such a bad idea it is laughable. Just because they exist doesn't mean they are very talkative.
The issue also is, that Ed also re-asserted personally Eilistraee's benevolence, and indeed, she comes of as one of the more beneovlent deities, even among the good aligned ones, from what we know about her (ie she doesn't really have majorly morally bad looking moments, like even Corellon for example).
The myth is also consistent with how the deities are presented in other sources.
The story also fit's in how it's presented in multiple other stories, and it doesn't seem to me to look as just pro-Eilistraee religious propaganda. Why? as it specifies:
quote:
By way of Selvetarm's redemption,
Eilistraee hoped to begin to heal the breach between the majority
of dark elves and the Seldarine. The Dark Maiden's hopes
were dashed, however, by the insidious plotting of Lolth.
It does present Eilistraee as having some ulterior motives, if good ones in the end, by building a bond with Selvetarm in this account. I think Eilistraee based propaganda, sould try to present as pure as possible.
Indeed, if it would be a propaganda of any of the churches, it would be quite probably of the church of Lolth - for Sharess, Selvetarm, this story has things that don't presentem in the best light (with Selvetarm being shown as pawn). With Lolth, it shows her overcoming enemies with her guile, and gaiming a servant from it, as well as arguably serving as a parable of the place of the make in Lolthite society - a pawn, even if he hates it.
I know you were joking, but I feel that among few people, Vhaeraun is something of a "Draco in Leather Pants":
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants
As I saw fans, based on stuff from mostly Spider Queen, and The Lady Penitent book serieses, want to present him as more sympathetic than his sister, which really isn't the case.
Yes, Vhaeraun has at least partly good intentions, but his actions are flawed, and don't help drow society in the long run, or to free really drow from Lolth. Indeed, some lore implies Lolth appreciates the "competition" Vhaeraun gives her, as she thinks some treachery, and even Priestesses changing sides for some time, is "healthy" - again, her High Priestess in the multiverse, Eclavdra betrayed her, but returned to her, and this behaviour that got her (oddly) Lolth's favor. She also minds at times, Lolth is a mad goddess...
Vhaeraun's worshippers, outside of equality of sexes, in many ways doesnt differ from the Loltite society.
And the thing is - Lolth even seemingly that egainst equality between sexes. With the Demon Weave plan, she would give the (majorly male) arcane spellcasters, a position equall to Priestesses of Lolth. The female supremacy among drow, is seemingly in part to cause inequality, and strife, for the sake conflict.
In many ways, unknowingly, Vhaeraun is still in some capacity Lolth's pawn.
This is even an objective truth, as historacally Lolth used, and took over the originally mostly Vhaeraun worshipping Ilythiiri, which lead to the transformation of Dark Elves into Drow...
I think Eilistraee conviced Vhaeraun to join forces with her, pointing out he still is used by their mother, by preseting for example what I pointed out above.
I think the realisation he never escaped Lolth's web of manipulation, would shock Vhaeraun enough to reconsider his plans, and change his outlook somewhat, as well decide to fuse with his sister, to finally make a difference against their mother. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 16:17:29
Bast/Sharess being worshiped in some form by the Drow - and all elves for that matter - has a LOT of traction. I personally have her as a Primal power (Beast lord) and interloper into the Mulan (Pharonic) pantheon to begin with. As a 'Beast lord' (and primal power), it would place her very close to the Fey pantheon, since many powers are found in both (at least half the fey powers - who should ALSO be Elven Powers at this point - have animal or 'hybrid' aspects). Plus, a cult to Sharess among the Drow makes a LOT of sense - she is all about hedonism, whereas 'Momma Lolth' is just a crotchity old b****.
So what if Xandilar was already an aspect of the same archtype? I picture her as an offshoot (perhaps 'vestige') of the pre-Drow dark-elven Eilistraee, but maybe she already had a connection to Baast instead? While on the one hand my original take would make perfect sense because Selvatarm looked at Eilistraee as his mother, on the other, there is an 'icky' incestual aspect to all of that (not that drow - and especially GODS - would be above such things). So maybe the Yuir totems were like 'cousins' to the Seldarine - another branch of the Fey/Elven pantheon(s)? Its not like that pantheon hasn't split before - beings from the Faelven (my new term!) can be found in many pantheons, including the Norse, Celtic, and vedic ones. And since native American Gods are a lot of 'Beast lords', I may as well lump them in there too.
Thus, the 'Yuir' may have been the Beast Lords (primal Spirits) that joined the Faelven pantheon early on, which may have included Baast, where she took the name Xandilar. And she may have even looked up to Eilistraee as an 'older sister' at one point (something a lot of 'younger cousins' do). Which is why her Xandilar aspect is so much like pre-descent Eilistraee. In fact... what if Baast became Sharess and joined the Faerunian pantheon after she (re)absorbed Xandilar? An aspect of her came over with the Mulan, and then she finally rejoined with her Torillian aspect, giving her a huge power-boost, and allowing her entry into the other human pantheons. Unfortunately, poor little kitty-cat still had this thing about listening to older females (girl-crush) and fell under Shar's sway.
Although... and I hate to bring it up again... all of this makes SO much more sense if Shar really is Lolth. I mean, we even have that name - Val'Sharess. If Auraushnee was originally part of a bipartite entity (proto-Angharradh) with Sehanine Moonbow (who we now know is also Selūne), then the Faerunian creation myth simply becomes a localized (human) version of the Elven myth. Or, 'Torillian' version, if you will.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
His centuries alone was most likely during his adult years, not his childhood.
EXCELLENT point.
We have to consider that he may not have been raised on Toril at all. Baast is an ancient power, and probably sits outside the regular Mulan/Pharonic pantheon in many ways, same as Set. She probably didn't have the same limitations the others had, especially after she (re)absorbed Xandilar. Her and Set have an ancient history (her whole purpose is to thwart him at every turn), and the two of them are spread everywhere (we know Set is, and we have a lot of evidence now that {D&D} Baast is).
I really think we need to stop thinking of the (proto)Seldarine as the 'Elven' Gods... there was no such thing, originally, when a lot of those elven myths occurred. They were all just 'Gods'. If anything, all of them are part of the Greater 'D&D Pantheon', and that's just a fact. Various mortal races latching onto this one or that one would have come later, when mortals were a thing. Thus, it becomes silly to even think of pantheons in those terms - they were 'social clubs', at best, back then. ALL of the gods commingled - we see clear evidence of this in all the 4e cosmology.
Corellon is only 'sort of' an exception when it comes to the elves, but since nearly all mortal races (the major ones, anyway) were given some blessing/help by gods, the whole 'blood thing' becomes moot - it's just a much more physical representation of what was going with everyone.
There are NO separate draconic, Elven, and Torillian Creation Myths - its all ONE STORY retold through the filter of different worlds and races, is all. I am pretty much convinced that Corellon had but one consort, and that Goddess went insane, and to save her he split her in twain (or she may have done this herself, or with the help of other divine beings). Two other goddesses joined with the 'good' half (Sehanine/Selūne), and Araushnee became Lolth, and Shar. So Angharradh was the original 'Goddess of Magic', just as Corellon is the 'God of Magic', and that being used to be comprised of other pieces/aspects.
Gods are like legos. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 16:03:27
But Ed himself has stated on numerous occasions that deities lie, priests lie, churches lie, and they are all mysterious liars so you can never be sure what is true. Plus interactive deities are such a bad idea it is laughable. Just because they exist doesn't mean they are very talkative. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 15:36:41
In this case however, the existence of deities is objective fact, and Demihuman Deities is written from the PoV of the omniscient narrator. It also doesn't contradict and is never contradicted by previous or new lore.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
For me Selvetarm is a son of Vhaerun and Kieranselee (former moon elven goddess). Both were transformed and dominated by Lloth to ensure their loyality each in different way. That is actualy the main reason why is Vhaerun opposed to her but she holds hostages most dear to him so he do not want to risk open rebellion. He also became bitter and selfish due to what happened to them and it serves well to lure him closer to Lloth in alignment.
I'm guessing this is your headcanon, because this doesn't sound like Kiaransalee or Vhaeraun. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 14:06:18
Selvetarms lore sounds like religious propaganda to me. They are hardly going to tell the truth that selvetarm was a normal eleven child who loved his mum and dad and always listened to his teacher. Unfortunately his evil aunt got him hooked on drugs and he gradually became the twisted monster he is today.
I never take the deity lore as fact. It's too nonsensical and fantastical for the most part and much like our own religious fables can become massively corrupted over time until it little resembles the truth (Noahs ark was actually about the straits of Gibraltar separating and the Mediterranean sea forming but the modern story is nothing like the reality. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 13:57:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
For me Selvetarm is a son of Vhaerun and Kieranselee (former moon elven goddess). Both were transformed and dominated by Lloth to ensure their loyality each in different way. That is actualy the main reason why is Vhaerun opposed to her but she holds hostages most dear to him so he do not want to risk open rebellion. He also became bitter and selfish due to what happened to them and it serves well to lure him closer to Lloth in alignment.
How? Unless you meant that this is your own lore (that is perfectly acceptable), all of that is clearly not the case in canon (and Kiaransalee has always been drow, that I know, while Vhaeraun has never been dominated or transformed by Lolth). |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 13:37:16
For me Selvetarm is a son of Vhaerun and Kieranselee (former moon elven goddess). Both were transformed and dominated by Lloth to ensure their loyality each in different way. That is actualy the main reason why is Vhaerun opposed to her but she holds hostages most dear to him so he do not want to risk open rebellion. He also became bitter and selfish due to what happened to them and it serves well to lure him closer to Lloth in alignment. |
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