| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gyor |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 01:51:16
https://youtu.be/hgP6JnWh4Ig
Its very interesting to watch, curious what your thoughts are in this video. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 22:18:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
If I think about it, it also may explain their ability to use high magic (which Corellon is the god of). It allows them--high mages, anyway--to use very powerful magic. However, because the amount of divine blood in them is enough to make them "special", but not enough to bring them to demigod status, this means that, while they can cast high magic spells, they can't always control them, and they are prone to going awry (as we have seen).
THIS actually does make sense. I hate it when someone else's logic trumps mine (not really - I rather enjoy that). 
quote:
The problem with the whole 'blood of..." thing is that gods CAN create new bodies with a snap of their fingers, and if each of those contains that sort of power, then why haven't gods just not gone into the 'body part' business? Create an avatar and let folks hack it up? Each piece would be a 'relic'. 'Good' gods might not want to do that, but an evil one? Leave chunks of their own brand of 'pure evil' lying around? In a fiction story it makes for a good plot, maybe, but in D&D it starts to break down the mechanics of the game.
Now, gods that are ascended mortals (or any other type of purely physical being), this might be workable - only the original body would hold that sort of power. We see this with the body of Karsus - even Shar wanted a chunk of it. But beings that are primordial - that have been around since the beginning? They wouldn't naturally have physical bodies because they out-date physicality itself. And Corellon - according to 4e canon - is one of the most ancient beings in the universe. The only things that predate him canonically are the Obyriths (aberrational beings may or may not predate him - time doesn't really mean anything in The Far Realms).
So then is this a 'First Body' thing? Is it only the very first physical form he ever took that matters so much? (which could possibly explain why Gods still have deformities even though they are gods.)
It *could* be a first body thing. Perhaps Corellon took a physical form when there became a need to (whatever that need may be). Maybe when the concept of life came about, which was different than the existence of pre-time beings like Corellon? Or when other gods/beings started showing up on scene.
Or, perhaps Corellon DID have a physicality, even though there wasn't an idea of physicality. Maybe it was a way of being able to interact with other ancient, primordial beings. So, even though he pre-dates physicality, he could still have that physicality. Many ancient beings are described as "formless", but that doesn't mean they couldn't take a form. It's like time. Time as we know it is a mortal construct, but even "before time", there was a progression.
A bit far-fetched, I know. We don't know why Corellon chose the body of an elf (or what would become elf). He pre-dates the concept of elf-ness, but his physicality then allowed for the dea of elf-ness to happen--even if their creation was an accident.
quote:
My whole problem with this is that I think the myths are just myths, but they are based on real events (this applies to D&D as well as RW). In my (homebrew) Overcosmology, these are all just uber-powerful beings, not really 'gods' in the same way we think of that term in modern religion. There is no omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence. Not even someone like Corellon. Think of them like a 'race' - the first race. So they do make foolish mistakes, and they do have petty jealousies, and they do have strong emotions and feelings (perhaps TOO strong). But in the end, they are just 'people' with superpowers. That's how mythology portrays these beings, and that's how it should be in D&D. Saying the elves sprang from Corellon's blood is very poetic, and I DO like it... but not if it is a simple fact. Because once you make it 'real', I need to apply science and logic to it. Are all elves clones, then? Can they change the way they look, because otherwise, they all look like Corellon? 
Many RW myths have gods acting very "human", but they are still gods, with varying degrees of power. They aren't all-seeing or all-knowing in the way God (of the Judeo-Christian faith) is, but even the biblical God (capitalizing to differentiate) displayed human emotions sometimes (even admitting he/He was a jealous god). These "human" emotions actually make sense if we think about the fact that in RW faiths, humans are modelled after the deities who create them, and it makes sense if this not only applies to physical attributes, but psychological ones as well. Even though gods are often beyond mortal understanding, with motives that we can never grasp, they are still active/receptive forces. Even uber powerful beings who are said to be unfeeling or completely detached may not actually be that way, it's just that we (as mortals) can't comprehend the emotions they DO have. This would include ancient beings like Corellon.
In regards to the elves and Corellon, the first "batch", if you will, probably resembled him to a greater extent than present day--in the D&D timeline--do. There might be some remaining elven families who could trace their bloodline back to the original "batch", but they aren't going to look exactly the same.
The video said something about drow of other worlds having traces of Lolth (IIRC), even if they do not know of her, so the same principle could apply to the other elves--and any race, probably. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 20:57:09
Some random thoughts...
1: This entire concept is obviously orchestrated by Cyric & Leira to mess with Corellon & Lolth, sow the seeds of strife, and reignite the Crown Wars... Gender is just another Elven Lie...
The Black Sun is always ascendant!
B: The Realms is already presented as being way ahead of the RW in terms of social & gender inclusivity, since the "norm" is presented as both ethnicity & gender are essentially non-relevant to Human societies... because... monstrous humanoids or planes or something... So, in my mind, Gender Mutability by the Fey, is essentially a non-change to the setting or the lore...
III: In terms of game mechanics, it's another giant nothing... Gender is an "M" or an "F" on a character sheet that has no mechanical impact on the game... It doesn't mean anything in the game, unless you want it to matter at your table, same as anything else... So, in my mind, Gender Mutability by the Fey, is essentially a non-change to the game mechanics or the rules...
FOUR: We established a long time ago that the RW is part of the same multiverse that the Realms exists in... The minute Ed Greenwood had Wizards meet him at his place on Earth, as part of Canon Lore, it would be conceptually disingenuous if RW circumstances had zero impact on the Realms... New Lore is not conflict with Old Lore, it's just new information that may or may not be more accurate than old information presented by an inconsistent narrator with questionable motives, like Elminster... or as Cyric would call it: "The Eternal Lies of Elminster: The First Bane-Lich"
What this scroll should really be discussing is why everyone should be thanking Asmodeus for his re-ascension & subsequent unmasking of the Bane=Ares=Mars connection... Otherwise Elminster might have managed to spin enough lies to frame Cyric for murdering Mystra... Bane always wanted Mystra's power, AND he was more powerful than ever after the Spellplague (poor Cyric, perpetual victim of amoral deities)... Elminster's very name belies his sinister purpose:
EL MINSTER AU MAR = THE CHURCH OF BANE
Remember, Truth was merely the first Lie... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 20:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@CD IMO D&D shouldn't have a "special" race because it is not a tale about that special race. D&D is many tales about many people/creatures/races, told by many people. If you had a mary sue race, a chosen one race, then the world would kinda revolve around them, you'd be gimping yourself by not making an elven character, your story about a character of any other race would never reach the kind of achievements that a story about the mary sue race could, and so on...
In short, you can have a mary sue race only in a world made to tell a story centered on that mary sue race. In any other world, the perception of any other race would be altered by the presence of such a blatantly special race, the efforts of other race would be overshadowed by the oh-so-awesomeness of the mary sue race, etc...
Not necessarily. I see where you are coming from, but this isn't always the case. You can have a special race, and characters of that race, but often, they aren't the "center race" (usually humans are). The situation with the elves in D&D mirrors a pretty common fantasy trope: ancient, powerful, "special" race used to be the epitome of civilization and knowledge, but then some disaster befell them, and they no longer have that status.
D&D of course has a myriad of races, and even if the elves are "special", it doesn't make them dominant (even if some members of the race think otherwise). |
| Starshade |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 17:03:04
Anyone thought of the obvious?
What do Corellon's gift, do?
Is the elves recognized as the same person by those who don't know he/she is gifted? Or not?
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 16:06:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I'm sorry but WoTc need to stay away from making new lore because they suck at it. They are making everything such a mess. They promote using older material but yet their new lore conflicts with it. *sighs*
They need something to sell which isn't just mostly mechanics or reprints of older fluff. The canon ship sailed with 4e; continuity is not that important between the oldschool realms and the newer fluff.
3E, actually. That was when they started casually disregarding prior canon, either ignoring it outright or giving us the lame "oh, yeah, things were always this way, it's just that nobody knew about it!"
Yes and no. mechanically, YES - if the canon went against something they were trying to accomplish within the rules, then the canon just got tossed out the window (like Drow's infravision... changing it to Darkvision destroyed a whole important plot-point in one of RAS's novels).
Buuuuuuut... a problem I keep running into in 3e lore is the rigidity to which they stuck to historic canon, to the point of absurdity in some places (places where I think it would have been better to just throw-away a piece of lore, then to try and bend everything else around it). And also, there was a nearly manic need to place everything. Every stray bit of lore that could be found was wound into the 'greater story' of the Realms. Now, on the surface, that sounds wonderful, and until quite recently I thought it was. But now I find that as I look at the older lore and draw my own conclusions about things, they are 'wrong' because someone else has already grabbed-up that stray bit and nailed it down.
In other words, they took the wonderful "uncertain third person" perspective right out of the setting - a major premise it was built upon. And I think that was an artistic crime. Once you start 'cementing' the pieces into place, you've basically taken the toys away from the DMs, and I think that started a VERY bad precedent. Bad enough when authors pickup some of the wonderful plots and totally use them up (I've likened that to a gas station attendant taking money to put gas in your car, and then he puts the gas in his own car instead), but when the game designers do it, it's basically THE WORST case of 'planned obsolescence' I've ever seen. Its like Lego selling you pictures of legos, because they only want you to look at them, NOT play with them. After all, they are THEIR toys!
So that's the feeling I get now when I look at a lot of the 3e lore - it's been so 'set in stone' it's practically immutable, and I think the 4e designers also ran into that roadblock, and decided to nuke it... which they did. The 'canon' not only got in the way of us telling our stories, it got in the way of them telling theirs. So 'blowing up the world' seemed like a good idea to them, and they probably thought it was a good idea for us as well (and for the people who loved 4e, it was).
And thus, in a sad sort of way, 3e - the edition that brought us the best and most concise history of the setting we love - became anathema to story-telling. Like the Dark Phoenix, those closest to it decided it needed to die.
So while your point is valid in regards to crunchy stuff, Wooly, I feel quite the opposite became true with the rest of the lore - it became inviolate, like holy scripture, and therein lies the rub. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 15:45:27
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
If I think about it, it also may explain their ability to use high magic (which Corellon is the god of). It allows them--high mages, anyway--to use very powerful magic. However, because the amount of divine blood in them is enough to make them "special", but not enough to bring them to demigod status, this means that, while they can cast high magic spells, they can't always control them, and they are prone to going awry (as we have seen).
THIS actually does make sense. I hate it when someone else's logic trumps mine (not really - I rather enjoy that).
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I do agree that many, if not all of the races, have some bit of "divine spark in them" (at the very least, the demi-human races like gnomes and dwarves, and it certainly isn't limited to them), because they ARE their god(s) creation. The reason it is considered "special" with Corellon's blood is because it is blood. Blood (and by extension bloodline) has always been associated with heritage/lineage (look at RW history) and power--both status and magical. By it being his blood, they have a bit of his DNA. Blood is a conduit. I think that is where the idea that it makes them unique/special comes from.
We know for a fact that humans WERE 'created' (in D&D) - the 4e lore says so but then goes onto to say the name of our creator has been forgotten. That means two of the Five Creatori (Creator Races) have definitely been purpose-built, and I would assume the other three were as well (I can't recall if it explicitly says that, but I am sure ZeromaruX will be along to tell us either way). As for the demihumans (I've always hated that term, because then we are forced to live humans out), I believe each of them has lore that says they were created by their gods as well (not sure about the Hin - I actually think they are a hybrid that out-performed the original race).
The problem with the whole 'blood of..." thing is that gods CAN create new bodies with a snap of their fingers, and if each of those contains that sort of power, then why haven't gods just not gone into the 'body part' business? Create an avatar and let folks hack it up? Each piece would be a 'relic'. 'Good' gods might not want to do that, but an evil one? Leave chunks of their own brand of 'pure evil' lying around? In a fiction story it makes for a good plot, maybe, but in D&D it starts to break down the mechanics of the game.
Now, gods that are ascended mortals (or any other type of purely physical being), this might be workable - only the original body would hold that sort of power. We see this with the body of Karsus - even Shar wanted a chunk of it. But beings that are primordial - that have been around since the beginning? They wouldn't naturally have physical bodies because they out-date physicality itself. And Corellon - according to 4e canon - is one of the most ancient beings in the universe. The only things that predate him canonically are the Obyriths (aberrational beings may or may not predate him - time doesn't really mean anything in The Far Realms).
So then is this a 'First Body' thing? Is it only the very first physical form he ever took that matters so much? (which could possibly explain why Gods still have deformities even though they are gods.)
My whole problem with this is that I think the myths are just myths, but they are based on real events (this applies to D&D as well as RW). In my (homebrew) Overcosmology, these are all just uber-powerful beings, not really 'gods' in the same way we think of that term in modern religion. There is no omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence. Not even someone like Corellon. Think of them like a 'race' - the first race. So they do make foolish mistakes, and they do have petty jealousies, and they do have strong emotions and feelings (perhaps TOO strong). But in the end, they are just 'people' with superpowers. That's how mythology portrays these beings, and that's how it should be in D&D. Saying the elves sprang from Corellon's blood is very poetic, and I DO like it... but not if it is a simple fact. Because once you make it 'real', I need to apply science and logic to it. Are all elves clones, then? Can they change the way they look, because otherwise, they all look like Corellon? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 12:34:47
quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I'm sorry but WoTc need to stay away from making new lore because they suck at it. They are making everything such a mess. They promote using older material but yet their new lore conflicts with it. *sighs*
They need something to sell which isn't just mostly mechanics or reprints of older fluff. The canon ship sailed with 4e; continuity is not that important between the oldschool realms and the newer fluff.
3E, actually. That was when they started casually disregarding prior canon, either ignoring it outright or giving us the lame "oh, yeah, things were always this way, it's just that nobody knew about it!" |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 12:04:23
quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I'm sorry but WoTc need to stay away from making new lore because they suck at it. They are making everything such a mess. They promote using older material but yet their new lore conflicts with it. *sighs*
They need something to sell which isn't just mostly mechanics or reprints of older fluff. The canon ship sailed with 4e; continuity is not that important between the oldschool realms and the newer fluff.
There's plenty they could be doing without playing with the lore behind where certain races came from. For instance, what about updating some more regions of the realms with modern lore. Given the droves of people that left in 4e, the gathering of 4e lore into a pile of "this was true" and "this got changed this way" would go a long way to improving their standing. |
| Spectralballoons |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 11:45:26
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I'm sorry but WoTc need to stay away from making new lore because they suck at it. They are making everything such a mess. They promote using older material but yet their new lore conflicts with it. *sighs*
They need something to sell which isn't just mostly mechanics or reprints of older fluff. The canon ship sailed with 4e; continuity is not that important between the oldschool realms and the newer fluff. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 10:47:54
Agreed on what shadowsoul just said... or at least to a degree... they need to start asking the question, "Why do I want to make this change and was there previously another answer that made sense?". |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 09:22:38
I'm sorry but WoTc need to stay away from making new lore because they suck at it. They are making everything such a mess. They promote using older material but yet their new lore conflicts with it. *sighs* |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 00:26:39
@CD IMO D&D shouldn't have a "special" race because it is not a tale about that special race. D&D is many tales about many people/creatures/races, told by many people. If you had a mary sue race, a chosen one race, then the world would kinda revolve around them, you'd be gimping yourself by not making an elven character, your story about a character of any other race would never reach the kind of achievements that a story about the mary sue race could, and so on...
In short, you can have a mary sue race only in a world made to tell a story centered on that mary sue race. In any other world, the perception of any other race would be altered by the presence of such a blatantly special race, the efforts of other race would be overshadowed by the oh-so-awesomeness of the mary sue race, etc... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 23:50:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
.
And the thing that annoys me the MOST about that video and lore? The 'myth' about the elves being "made from Corellon's Blood" has now become a factoid, and THAT is problematical. The entire elven race - Drow and Shadar and all - are no longer viable to me. Why should the elves be 'special'? NO race in D&D (except maybe the illithids) evolved naturally - they were all created by 'The Gods'. This just screams 'gods chosen people' to me so much, and I find it makes my skin crawl. It gives the elves an actual, factual reason to look down at everyone else. I had always assumed ALL of 'the gods' had given their creations some tiny little bit of them... some 'spark'. So what if Corellon's was blood? So he takes on a fleshy vessel, and that thing bleeds, and suddenly elves are so much more important than everyone else?
Personally, I'd rather say MY GOD gave some primate his personal 'divine spark' and that thing grew and evolved into an amazing race, than to say I was the result of some spilled bodily fluids. THAT doesn't make you 'special' - it makes you a cosmic accident.
This particular move actually makes sense to me. Even if was previously phrased as the "creation myth" or "the elves believe", it was pretty much treated as canon. Now, i realize you could argue that it was "canon myth" because it was what the elves believed, but it is something that has remained fairly consistent through editions, amidst a lot of other changes. To me, the jump from creation myth to fact isn't really that extreme in this case.
Also, so what if it actually does make them special? A lot of fantasy works (at least those featuring "non-human" races") have a race that is, in some way or other, "special". And, to me at least, the fact that it is well, fact now, actually makes their arrogance more plausible. I mean, at least they have a real reason for it, rather than just assuming, right? Reason for behavior. Not saying it excuses their behavior, but it gives a factual reason for it.
If I think about it, it also may explain their ability to use high magic (which Corellon is the god of). It allows them--high mages, anyway--to use very powerful magic. However, because the amount of divine blood in them is enough to make them "special", but not enough to bring them to demigod status, this means that, while they can cast high magic spells, they can't always control them, and they are prone to going awry (as we have seen).
I do agree that many, if not all of the races, have some bit of "divine spark in them" (at the very least, the demi-human races like gnomes and dwarves, and it certainly isn't limited to them), because they ARE their god(s) creation. The reason it is considered "special" with Corellon's blood is because it is blood. Blood (and by extension bloodline) has always been associated with heritage/lineage (look at RW history) and power--both status and magical. By it being his blood, they have a bit of his DNA. Blood is a conduit. I think that is where the idea that it makes them unique/special comes from.
BTW, I'm not just saying this because I love elves (though I do). I am trying to look at it objectively.
And, for some reason, I am not getting notified about updates, even though I'm subscribed to this thread. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 20:11:50
The current lore can still work without the curse.Your solution works nicely too. In any case, the story of the drow would still be intact without the curse, and it's better off w/o it IMHO. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 20:09:44
I don't think that the Drow's exile into the Underdark makes no sense without the curse. According to LEoF, after Ilythiir was defeated, after Miyeritar was destroyed, the elves actively, violently drove any and all drow into the Underdark. Once there, the drow could have attuned to the Faerzress in various ways. Assistance from the Dark Seldarine, natural adaptatuon, a ritual like you describe, etc... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 17:02:48
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So he curses all the drow, but then blesses some of them too. How about instead of a sex-change blessing, you just remove the whole 'Curse' thing, ya big elfy jerk?!
It looks like they're retconning the curse. The drow simply walked away from the Seldarine, but they've always looked like that (always as in since the moment when they lost their connection to Arvandor and therefore the ability to shapeshift. Much like the other elves lost it in their new lore).
I'm torn about this. I'm not a fan of warping previous lore, but I've honestly *never* liked this curse. It was always an incredibly lame idea IMHO. Without the curse, in the Realms, the drow would simply be chased into the Underdark after the Crown Wars, much like it is now. It doesn't really change much, conceptually. The first dark elves that arrived at around -27k would just look like drow (and in Elaine's Evermeet, IIRC, things were already like that).
Had they also not wanted so desperately to keep Shadar-Kai, they may have been able to do something with that (combining the two notions). Lets say that some elves who turned from the Seldarine started playing with 'other paths of power', including Umbral/Shadow. Inadvertently, then, the more 'shadowy' they became, the more sunlight became hurtful to them, THUS, they drove themselves underground. I could have been onboard with that.
But instead, they took the elven history/lore - a convoluted mess - and turned into a different convoluted mess. They certainly didn't simplify any of it, if that was their goal.
Look at RW human history (something designers seem to avoid like the plague... but giving 2e's penchant for carbon-copying some areas I can't say I blame them much LOL). There was plenty of times when entire racial groups were enslaved, brutalized, genocided, oppressed, badly defeated in wars, etc, etc... I don't recall ANY of them going underground. And we actually evolved from cavedwellers. An elf - a creature that derives sustenance from sunlight (2e Complete Elves) going into a place where there isn't any is akin to a fish hiding from predators on land.
Without the curse (or good mechanical reason like I gave above), dark elves going Underground makes no sense at all, IMHO. Now, they might be able to fix this with story. What if a Genocide WAS what the surface Elves were attempting? It does seem that way - both sides were out to obliterate the other. Drow 'scientists' (Arcane Sages?) see that they are on the ropes and about to become warg-meat. They know the best way to avoid the Surface elves (and perhaps the Dark Disaster if they saw that coming) would be to go to the one place surface elves wouldn't follow - into the dark. But then they won't have sunlight, which elves need. They go looking around for another power source available in the Underdark and discover Faerzress. So they perform some sort of ritual themselves - one that links to the one being performed by the surface elves (to destroy Miyeritar) - and they change their nature so that it is attuned to Farzress energy rather than sunlight.
Now, it might be interesting to say they actually created the Faerzress nodes in the Underdark - that they are possibly just collectors/foci for Ultraviolet rays (and that's why Drow have such marvelous tans LOL). It I wanted to get all 'sciency' (about fantasy), perhaps they turned a bunch of sun-orbiting asteroids into black holes (of a magical nature), that absorb the UV rays and transfer them to 'white holes' (Faerzress nodes) in the underdark, and so long as Drow live in fairly close proximity to them, they can get what they need from them and not worry about sunlight?
And although all of that is a bit over-complicated, it does explain something I've had trouble with for years regarding drow - why don't they ALL just become vampires? They already avoid sunlight, live underground (you don't get much more 'buried' than that), and it is an option loaded with POWER - something drow crave. I could never figure-out why it wasn't an insanely popular option among their kind. But if they need UV rays - the same thing that kills vampires - then that would help explain it. If they become vampires, they'd probably then have to avoid most Drow settlements, because those are always built in close proximity to Faerzress nodes. Some do exist and live in Drow cities, but they'd have to have come up with some form of unguent to rub on themselves akin to magical sunscreen, and that should have rare and costly materials to manufacture.
And all of this could have been made so much easier if they just said the drow attuned themselves to 'shadow' instead (so, like Elven Shades), and the shadar-Kai are just a group of Drow that went to go live in the Shadowfell, and have now gained additional abilities because of that (so 'Shadar-Kai' could just become a 'shadow' template applied to a drow, instead of a whole 'nother separate sub-race). Thus, the Shadar-Kai are like the Eladrin's opposite. The Shadar would be to Drow what Eladrin are to elves.
And the thing that annoys me the MOST about that video and lore? The 'myth' about the elves being "made from Corellon's Blood" has now become a factoid, and THAT is problematical. The entire elven race - Drow and Shadar and all - are no longer viable to me. Why should the elves be 'special'? NO race in D&D (except maybe the illithids) evolved naturally - they were all created by 'The Gods'. This just screams 'gods chosen people' to me so much, and I find it makes my skin crawl. It gives the elves an actual, factual reason to look down at everyone else. I had always assumed ALL of 'the gods' had given their creations some tiny little bit of them... some 'spark'. So what if Corellon's was blood? So he takes on a fleshy vessel, and that thing bleeds, and suddenly elves are so much more important than everyone else?
Personally, I'd rather say MY GOD gave some primate his personal 'divine spark' and that thing grew and evolved into an amazing race, than to say I was the result of some spilled bodily fluids. THAT doesn't make you 'special' - it makes you a cosmic accident. |
| Spectralballoons |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 15:59:43
Since I know more about this now, my feelings on it have changed somewhat. Some, rare elves with a special connection to their deities being able to change it does make sense; I do remember reading that Corellon was genderless and could appear as either male or female in a book, I think Evermeet: Island of the Elves. By being near their diety, they gain some of his characteristics. It would make a bit more sense if they could also switch race, though, since that's also something he was described as doing.
While we're at it, kind of unrelated, but wasn't Correlon appearing as a male golden elf due to Lolth? I remember that being the case in the book, but did he stop typically appearing like that after the banishment?
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Lloth's Drow society is one of TERFs, Eilistraee's Drow are intersectional feminists with attendant hypocracies, Corellon's is equalitists, Vhauruns is Red Pillar, Selvetarm is male feminist, and hints that Zandilar would be a MRA (or as close as that comes) idealogically.
I don't think it makes any sense to try and apply controversial real-world sociopolitics to the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Why do they even need to modify older fundemental lore on a race in this book instead of simply providing some variuos statblocks, general information and then lot of hooks and organizations and NPCs we can use from this race in our campaigns?
They're not modifying older fundamental lore; Drow aren't all now capable of changing gender. It's newer, post-Sundering fluff about how some elves with close connections to the in older fluff genderless Corellon are capable of imitating their god and changing their gender. They should've added fluff for changing Elven subrace as well, though, since Corellon with regards to race is much like Corellon with regards to gender |
| farinal |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 14:52:43
Why do they even need to modify older fundemental lore on a race in this book instead of simply providing some variuos statblocks, general information and then lot of hooks and organizations and NPCs we can use from this race in our campaigns?
Just give me some drow houses, organizations, npcs, criminals, heretic cleric orders etc. Some FOES to be used in my games as the book's title says. Don't modify the old lore as I will already go and look for my old FR sourcebooks for information since nothing they produce now will ever surpass the amount of lore and detail in those books. So why not build on them instead of warping the old stuff and bringing weird new rules that are clearly influenced by modern politics... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 03:48:40
Did they even mention Corellon's cursing of the drow in any video? I really haven't noticed any mention of it. It does seem that the drow weren't cursed physically in this version of the lore. Most of them just stayed with Lolth. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 02:58:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Yeah, I know I made it so sunlight - the thing Elves love best - is anathema to you guys, and you can't even go out in it without penalties, but instead of taking that back, I am going to do this other thing to you wherein you can be just like me! How about that? Isn't that special? You can be all 'sexless' just like me! 'Cause I know deep down, everyone - including the other gods - are all jealous and want to be me.
Except that it isn't just drow. It is the surface elves, too, so it isn't like he is "double cursing" the drow specifically. Also, if you get down to it, a majority of the gods are probably "beyond gender", though some may present a more specific form, such as those concerned with childbirth. And, of course, we have deities like Lolth who unquestionably favor the female form and all that entails.
Like the video from another thread discussing the elves, I don't see the "Corellon is a jerk" factor. Perhaps distant and a bit detached, and one with his bad moments (and he isn't the only god to have had those), but not a jerk. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 20:46:16
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So he curses all the drow, but then blesses some of them too. How about instead of a sex-change blessing, you just remove the whole 'Curse' thing, ya big elfy jerk?!
It looks like they're retconning the curse. The drow simply walked away from the Seldarine, but they've always looked like that (always as in since the moment when they lost their connection to Arvandor and therefore the ability to shapeshift. Much like the other elves lost it in their new lore).
I'm torn about this. I'm not a fan of warping previous lore, but I've honestly *never* liked this curse. It was always an incredibly lame idea IMHO. Without the curse, in the Realms, the drow would simply be chased into the Underdark after the Crown Wars, much like it is now. It doesn't really change much, conceptually. The first dark elves that arrived at around -27k would just look like drow (and in Elaine's Evermeet, IIRC, things were already like that). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 20:35:40
To be honest, I was just basing my opinions on what others have said. I am only watching this video now. Not loving it... "The elves pulled away from Corellon... the drow pulled further away from the Seldarine", and (from the other video), the Shadow elves pulled even furtherier away from the elven gods (I had to actually invent a word to describe this confusing mess).
So basically, the elves are a race of 'brats', but some are bratier than others. "Next up... dark shadow elves... even furtherierier away from the elven gods!!!" I really feel like they were trying to do something new, and instead just kept replaying the one-trick pony. Everything about ALL the sub-races is just a matter of 'degrees' away from Corellon they've become. And yet, at the same time, they are trying to make them all 'elfier' than ever.
"Charcoal, or, ummmm... purplish skin..." - the amount of work he puts into NOT saying the word 'black' is amazing. The world has become so 'PC' that we are afraid to even use ordinary words anymore in fear of reprisals. {sigh}
The rest of it sort of makes sense - the crunchy bits. Not sure how we are supposed to determine who has the 'blessing of Corellon' going on, I can see this being ignored by most groups. It also makes little sense since drow are supposedly ALL cursed by Corellon to begin with (not all Dark Elves, because he did bring-up Krynn, but definitely all DROW - its right in the damn name - Dhaerow = 'traitor'). So he curses all the drow, but then blesses some of them too. How about instead of a sex-change blessing, you just remove the whole 'Curse' thing, ya big elfy jerk?!
"Yeah, I know I made it so sunlight - the thing Elves love best - is anathema to you guys, and you can't even go out in it without penalties, but instead of taking that back, I am going to do this other thing to you wherein you can be just like me! How about that? Isn't that special? You can be all 'sexless' just like me! 'Cause I know deep down, everyone - including the other gods - are all jealous and want to be me. Now, grovel before your beautiful god and thank it profusely for even paying any attention to your insignificant selves."
Liberace, much? 
If he has an aspect in human pantheons, he should be the 'god of delusions' (maybe Narcissus in the Greek pantheon LOL). And lets not forget his three-in-one harem. Why is it that everything I have ever heard or read about Corellon just makes me hate him more? He's just so... slimey.
IMO, of course. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 19:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It changes absolutely nothing about the elves/drow. It only adds a few plot hooks for those who want to explore them. It's totally ok IMO, even if rather arbitrary for the reasons that I've explained.
Besides, this goes so well with the concept of Masked Traitors of Vhaeraun. Posing as a priestess of Lolth during the "day", leading the revolution as a male by "night".
That actually makes sense. A few might find their way to Corellon, but that is hard for someone born in the underdark to do. Vhaerun is so much closer, and he has no problem with Corellon's Blessed, in fact he sees them as an opportunity.
Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would see these individuals as an opportunity. They make for great ambassadors, since the elves seem to be forced to shelter them.
Lolth might use them too, as spies or infiltrators, but she also hates the very concept of that blessing, so she'd likely be torn about that. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 19:38:06
There might be some real world influence, but I think its more an influence from the whole Corellon's all sexes thing.
To be fair he's not the only deity in FR to take multiple sexes. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 19:34:55
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It changes absolutely nothing about the elves/drow. It only adds a few plot hooks for those who want to explore them. It's totally ok IMO, even if rather arbitrary for the reasons that I've explained.
Besides, this goes so well with the concept of Masked Traitors of Vhaeraun. Posing as a priestess of Lolth during the "day", leading the revolution as a male by "night".
That actually makes sense. A few might find their way to Corellon, but that is hard for someone born in the underdark to do. Vhaerun is so much closer, and he has no problem with Corellon's Blessed, in fact he sees them as an opportunity. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 21:06:07
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh, I have absolutely nothing against any of that in the real world - "live & let live'.
But I feel like this was done BECAUSE of the real world, and that cheapens it, IMHO.
I think they are going about it the wrong way, but I do advocate for more inclusivity. But being able to sex change is not really being all that inclusive. As I said, it would be better if they included a section on transgenderism in the Realms, rather than saying "these elves can sex change after resting".
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
The changing sex thing for drow has got to be the worst thing I've ever heard. What makes drow unique is the whole "women rule" type of society. Also, is there any past lore about this being achieved without a Girdle of Fem/Mas? Please leave real world issues out of my fantasy. I play D&D to get away from real world stuff for a while. Bad move in my opinion.
I see what you mean about escapism, however I feel like fantasy does need more inclusivity, as, just like the real world, it is pretty heteronormative, with some exceptions. Escaping from heteronormative society is a need for some, too, and they should be able to do that with fantasy, just as we use it to escape.
But as I said, I don't think this sex change feature is the way to do it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 19:40:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh, I have absolutely nothing against any of that in the real world - "live & let live'.
But I feel like this was done BECAUSE of the real world, and that cheapens it, IMHO.
Agreed.... there's way too much hype on gender changing, and now its spread to the game. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 17:59:39
Lloth's Drow society is one of TERFs, Eilistraee's Drow are intersectional feminists with attendant hypocracies, Corellon's is equalitists, Vhauruns is Red Pillar, Selvetarm is male feminist, and hints that Zandilar would be a MRA (or as close as that comes) idealogically.
I think that acturately sketches out the gender to faith situation among elves. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 14:33:27
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The question is why would the Seldarine, of all beings, care about gender? The only openly sexist elven deity is Lolth, who exemplifies misandry. I don't really see why the Seldarine would care about what gender their worshipers are.
That's one way to look at it, but you could also say that the fact that the Seldarine doesn't care about gender is precisely the reason why their blessing manifests as the ability to choose your sex at will. The puzzling part is, once again, why would sex be the *only* mutable aspect?
quote:
It's especially befuddling with the drow; any "Blessed" are going to choose being female.
Yeah, that's pretty much the case (unless they happen to be non-Lolthite). |
| Starshade |
Posted - 17 Mar 2018 : 14:19:29
Maybe this could explain the hair of Srinshee, as an example. |
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