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 Shadar Kai are now elves

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Gyor Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 18:18:10
In MGTF, the new book coming out in May, the Shadar Kai are going to be an Elven subrace, harking back to their original Fey origin in 3.5.

But this conflicits with major FR lore which has them as descendants of humans in the Shadowfell.

I don't know how they will square that circle.

In other MGTF news Giths are in and Tieflings get new Archdevil based subraces. Other Elven subraces confirmed to be in MGTF are Sea Elves and Eldarin. The book also helps explain why Elven Subraces are so Diverse, they used to be shape shifting fey (and some powerful Eldarin still are). The playable Eldarin will be humanoids.

Honestly I don't know what to make of it. Thoughts?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Oct 2022 : 04:12:59
Actually, that story is the 5e retcon to the Raven Queen, told in Mordekainen's Tome of Foes. Dungeon magazine has her original origin story, in which the Raven Queen was originally a mortal sorceress who caught Nerull's attention. He killed her, and made her his consort in the afterlife. She was not happy about, learned Nerull's secrets and then killed him, stealing his godhood. I prefer this storyline to the boring one they invented for 5e.
The Arcanamach Posted - 29 Oct 2022 : 02:41:49
Im sure the shadar-kai predate 3e (though I could be wrong). The story goes that the Raven Queen was trying to put a stop to the ware between Aurashnee (Lolth) and the Seldarine/Corellon. She enacted a great ritual (what I assume was elven high magic). Someone interfered, and she and her followers became tied to the Plane of Shadow (now called the Shadowfel). Her followers were tied directly to her so that, when they die, they are reincarnated in the shadow plane with her. This story is told in an issue of Dragon magazine. They were always elves, is my point.
Diffan Posted - 01 Jun 2022 : 03:07:38
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana

The 3pp Ulraunt’s guide to the Shadowfell has 5e rules for the human-descended shadar-kai on page 123.



Hm, I didn't know about this supplement. Definitely will have to check it out. Thanks!
Duneth Despana Posted - 31 May 2022 : 23:56:36
The 3pp Ulraunt’s guide to the Shadowfell has 5e rules for the human-descended shadar-kai on page 123.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

In MGTF, the new book coming out in May, the Shadar Kai are going to be an Elven subrace, harking back to their original Fey origin in 3.5.

But this conflicits with major FR lore which has them as descendants of humans in the Shadowfell.


In my games Canon, Shadar-Kai represent a people of the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow. In some cases, they are elves and follow the Raven Queen (who's own origin is far different that what's been printed) in others, they're more humanoid in appearance (as they look in 4E) and have pretty much abandoned the Raven Queen in favor of Shar and Netherese dominance. Though not all fey Shadar-Kai follow RQ, some do their own thing or follow any number of dark gods and ancient evils, even Orcus.

So should a player want to be a Shadar-Kai in 5E, they'd have to choose which kind they want to be. Similar to Tieflings, in which some were planartouched beings from old (2e/3e) and some where Asmodai followers (4E).

Diffan Posted - 31 May 2022 : 23:32:32
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

In MGTF, the new book coming out in May, the Shadar Kai are going to be an Elven subrace, harking back to their original Fey origin in 3.5.

But this conflicits with major FR lore which has them as descendants of humans in the Shadowfell.


In my games Canon, Shadar-Kai represent a people of the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow. In some cases, they are elves and follow the Raven Queen (who's own origin is far different that what's been printed) in others, they're more humanoid in appearance (as they look in 4E) and have pretty much abandoned the Raven Queen in favor of Shar and Netherese dominance. Though not all fey Shadar-Kai follow RQ, some do their own thing or follow any number of dark gods and ancient evils, even Orcus.

So should a player want to be a Shadar-Kai in 5E, they'd have to choose which kind they want to be. Similar to Tieflings, in which some were planartouched beings from old (2e/3e) and some where Asmodai followers (4E).
Duneth Despana Posted - 30 May 2022 : 02:55:07
Based on the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave adventure I always thought Shadar-Kai were elves that Retreated into the Shadow Plane, in somewhat of a dark reflection of the Star Elves (Adamantine could then be their assigned metal to mirror the Mithral Elves). Their stat block has elven as a language as well as sylvan and page 151 of the adventure module mentions Mythal-worthy elven ruins in the Vast Swamp (Which fits with the mention of ruined cities mentioned page 75 of dragon nr. 337). They might have taken to call themselves Shil'Tel-Quessir.
I also find it a very striking coincidence that the elven god of death Naralis Analor's symbol is a white dove... quite the opposite of a Black Raven. Corellon's poetic justice?
Wrigley Posted - 10 Dec 2019 : 01:04:55
At first I also din't liked shadar-kai but then I had a use for such a race in game and begun to think about it more. Right now I have a race of shadow-tainted elves who live in Shadow Plane's forests. They use their taint to hide from enemies and use cold iron piercings to fight off Shar's whispers (causing themselves pain to dumb this sensation). Most of them worship elven gods, mostly Fenmarel but there are fallen ones who embraced Shar.

I am considering another spin as I have spotted that drow albino's are called Szarkai which is suspiciously close to Shadar-Kai. If those are actually shadow-tainted drow they could worship Vhaerun (btw they have very close tenets those two...and symbol).

Krinth are said to be human-shadow demon crossbreed (cambion) and I do not see a reason to change that.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 21:57:53
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Btw does anyone think that Shadar Kai looking old in the Shadowfell and young because of "glamours" else where is incredibly stupid.



I've never liked shadar-kai, period. To me, they were just another part of that whole "shadows are kewl!" shtick that WotC drove into the ground back in 3E.

It also didn't help that the name shadar-kai was obviously meant to some sort of kewl shadow reference. "Hey, here's a shadow race whose name makes you think of shadows! Kewl, huh?"
Gyor Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 19:53:48
Btw does anyone think that Shadar Kai looking old in the Shadowfell and young because of "glamours" else where is incredibly stupid.
TBeholder Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 12:20:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I also use the Rockseer elves from Night Below - the live under the High Moor (remnants of the Green Elves of Miyeritar who followed their dark elven cousins below after the disaster).

How could they "follow" if the Descent happened long after (and in part due to) Dark Disaster?
Also, how would they survive all this time?..
quote:
I've even managed to tweak my maps to to sync-up perfectly with the ones in that product (it fits perfectly just to the right {east} of the the NE corner of the High Moor). When you scale it down, its a very tiny area compared to Faerūn.

...between Ched Nasad, Eryndlyn and Reeshov, the latter being formerly illithid(!) city of Suruptik?
Not exactly a forgotten, out-of-the-way area. Sounds more like a place several groups would like to have combed with use of divinations and psionics until there are no surprises left.
sleyvas Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 12:18:50
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I'd spin the 4e deity mergers as more temporary things for surviving the spell plague and not eternal things.

Now the question is how will the Raven Queen fit in all this?



Agreed, that's where I'm taking it. Gruumsh/Talos was simply Gruumsh taking advantage of Talos going away.

the Raven Queen... I'd personally like to equate her to Ereshkigal BECAUSE if you look at pictures of both, they're alike. I'd also like to equate her to Kiaransalee. Personally, I'd like to equate all of THAT to this thing where she forgets who she is, and basically that causes some kind of severing of the greater goddess into "aspects". So, similar to how Lolth is shown at the end of the Spider Queen novels as having like 8 or so entities that "make her up".... so should "the Raven Queen"/Kiaransalee/Ereshkigal... and all of these should NOW be treated as separate entities who may even work against each other.... and may need to consume each other.... in fact very much like the things that were being described in the "sidebars" for the Spider Queen books wherein Lolth was "separated" into "hundreds" of spiders that were consuming each other for dominance.
Spectralballoons Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 12:06:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Nevermind - found it. Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes? Yeah... that's gonna sell well... what were they thinking?


How's MGTF an acronym for Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes?
http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/mordenkainens-tome-foes
Zeromaru X Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 02:32:41
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Ioun and Boccob aren't related at all. Ioun its her own thing. She can be treated a la Planescape. A goddess from a certain sphere.

The Raven Queen is addressed in the new Mordenkainen book.



It could be that the Raven Queen is really only for default, Nerath settings, maybe some others, and is substituted for by other Gods/Goddesses and other cosmic beings in other settings.

I think given the very different Shadar Kai history in FR compared to Nerath or settings for whom the Shadar Kai are a blank slate, it would be harder to fit the Raven Queen into the setting



The Raven Queen is not a goddess in 5e. Mike Mearls said that, while in some worlds (including Nentir Vale) she is revered as a god, she is not actually a god.

She is more like the Lady of Pain. Mike Mearls even plays with the parallelism of the two. "Both are as powerful, or even more powerful, than gods, yet are trapped within their respective planes" (paraphrased).

So, while the Raven Queen may be now part of canon Realms, she will be not there in her quality as a goddess. Just as some patron for warlocks and that stuff.
Gyor Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 23:55:23
"After the Spellplague of 1385 DR, some shadovar humans and the children they gave birth to, as well as other humans across Toril that were somehow tied to the Shadowfell, were affected by the Spellplague and transformed into shade-like creatures.[6][2] Some people associated the birth of this new race with the decline of the krinth, as the numbers of the latter dwindled while those of the "newborn" race thrived. Some scholars among the Netherese speculated that those events where related, and that somehow the shadar-kai were evolved forms of the failed krinth.[2]

To avoid chaos among the shadovar, Prince Rivalen Tanthul said that they had been blessed by Shar, and called them "shadar-kai" (meaning "Those of Shadow's Gift", in the ancient Netherese language).[2] Prince Rivalen even devised a ritual to change a human into a shadar-kai.[7]

Shadar-kai became a race unto themselves in the generations that followed the Spellplague.[2] Some shadar-kai remained in Netheril, while others, mostly those that weren't originally shadovar, went to the Shadowfell, the Underdark, or to live across the lands of Toril.[5]" so not all Shadar Kai come from the Netherese, I think they are just the largest source and the ones who crested the ritual to create more Shadar Kai.

Gyor Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 23:48:14
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Ioun and Boccob aren't related at all. Ioun its her own thing. She can be treated a la Planescape. A goddess from a certain sphere.

The Raven Queen is addressed in the new Mordenkainen book.



It could be that the Raven Queen is really only for default, Nerath settings, maybe some others, and is substituted for by other Gods/Goddesses and other cosmic beings in other settings.

I think given the very different Shadar Kai history in FR compared to Nerath or settings for whom the Shadar Kai are a blank slate, it would be harder to fit the Raven Queen into the setting
Zeromaru X Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 18:12:38
Ioun and Boccob aren't related at all. Ioun its her own thing. She can be treated a la Planescape. A goddess from a certain sphere.

The Raven Queen is addressed in the new Mordenkainen book.
LordofBones Posted - 11 Mar 2018 : 01:13:06
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I'd spin the 4e deity mergers as more temporary things for surviving the spell plague and not eternal things.

Now the question is how will the Raven Queen fit in all this?



You'll have to ask how all 4e deities fit into this, considering that Ioun is in the same boat. Both Boccob and Nerull are around in 5e.
Gyor Posted - 10 Mar 2018 : 23:39:40
I'd spin the 4e deity mergers as more temporary things for surviving the spell plague and not eternal things.

Now the question is how will the Raven Queen fit in all this?
CorellonsDevout Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 19:50:58
I like to figure out "where things come from", too, whether mortals in game know about it or not. That is, after all, the point of these discussions. We diverge from what the mortals know LOL. This is why I'm saying the "balls of energy" isn't impossible, but the "spreading essence" is also possible. The two ideas are similar in concept, but different in practice and "origin story".

In 4e, they tried to make certain deities aspects of each other (like Gruumsh and Talos) in order to simplify things, however, I will concur that in a way, that makes things more complicated, because then you have to figure out why they are aspects/where they come from/etc. But that seems to have retconned in 5e, for which I am personally glad for. Markustay, I didn't mean to imply your ideas were simple--they aren't. They are intricate and complex. What I meant when I said making the deities aspects of each other or originating from balls of energy (or whatever you want to call them) simplifies things is that essentially puts the deities into these boxes, rather than allowing for different origins (other than for individual "aspects" or "branches" of that deity). However, with multispheric deities (and by that I mean deities who exist on multiple planes/worlds), I acknowledge that there has to be an "origin point".
Markustay Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 19:23:10
Hence my inclusion of the possibility of an aspect/avatar 'going rogue'. As part of our Orc musings in another thread, sometimes aspects have drifted so far away from their 'core essence' that they may as well be completely different gods. In that thread, I was trying to reconcile the 4e lore* that Gruumsh is Talos, by saying Talos was an aspect of Gruumsh - an Elder God - that had courted relationships with a LOT of non-goblinoids, and thus, lost quite a bit of his 'Gruumshiness'. Then another aspect of Gruumsh - a truer aspect - comes through during the Orcgate wars, and starts plotting against the aspect that he felt 'went astray' (and eventually subsumes that other aspect). Thus, Gruumsh & Talos were both two separate entities, and yet, the same being as well.

A great deal of what I put forth here is just me using this place as a 'sounding board' for stuff that I work-out in my own head, and has absolutely nothing to do with running games in The Realms. To mortals, it doesn't really matter if two gods are really just different aspects of an even greater being, because it doesn't change the rules regarding them. It's more of a 'deeper secrets' thing that DMs who like to run more cerebral games (players discovering clues to these secrets) might be able to play with. Like everything else, they're just 'toys in the toybox', and you can play with them if you want, or just ignore them. It really doesn't matter at all.

But since 4e went with this whole 'merging thing' - something I had personally been doing for years anyway - and its now considered canon in 5e (even if it was 'retconned', it was done-so in game, which means even the retcon is known and canon... in setting. I like it mostly because its a great way to explain inconsistencies from setting to setting, in regards to these gods, and also between editions. For example, maybe on some worlds Gruumsh is lawful evil, and on others, he is chaotic evil. Both can exist, because aspects develop their own personalities and quirks over time. This is actually nothing new for D&D - I believe it was in 1e or 2e where I was first introduced to the concept of 'the Achtype' (it isn't mine - it comes straight out of a sourebook). Now, looking back through the filter of 6 editions (7 if you include Chainmail), most of these 'Elder Gods' we started seeing in 4e are these theoretical 'archtypes' which already existed in D&D, but we just never saw them before (because their involvement in matters goes back to before the Crystal Spheres - and the need for aspects - were created). This is also why I feel like Nerath is just a regional name for The First World (the 'Midgard' of my cosmology). Things like pantheons and alignment should not even matter to such beings, because they are form before any of that were things.

I don't try and roll 'all the gods together' to simplify things - quite the contrary. What I do gets very complicated - merging all the lore, myths, & religions together into something approaching a cohesive whole. Its not meant to rock anyone's boat, and like I said, its also NOT meant to be applied 'in game'. Add to that all these D&D editions where they keep changing stuff and it gets so much worse. I am just trying to provide a model that we can apply to all these changes and differences and have it still all make sense in a meta-gaming sort of way. And in that regard, not only is no religion/cult 'getting it wrong', but neither is any DM, or groups of players. There is no 'wrong', because everything is based upon mortal beliefs and preconceptions.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 18:27:45
^That is kind of what I was getting at, and why I said "spreading essence". I don't particularly like the "ball of energy" concept, either, I'm just throwing it out there. I was mostly agreeing with you, just expanding on my own thoughts.
Irennan Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 18:09:42
As I said, when an aspect becomes so different from the original to be unrecognizable, then they're no longer really an aspect but their own deity. They have their own identity.

As for the "ball of energy" concept, I have a hard time with it for the simple fact that--as I said--a human is a ball of energy too. A rock is too, anything in this world is energy (even the Sun, or fire, the iconic "balls of energy" are made of physical matter that undergoes certain reactions). A deity doesn't need to be a ball of energy to produce aspects: similarly to how mortals can make simulacra or copies of themselves, deities would be able to do that too (avatars, aspects, or w/e). There's also the fact that balls of energy that only think about absorbing other energy don't make for great characters or stories IMO.

For deities that are worshiped in different spheres, since all the worlds are interconnected and share the same outer planes, I don't see why they can't just reside in the outer planes and reach out towards different material planes. Differences in their outlook can easily be attributed to mortal beliefs and depiction of the deity. Some deities can develop different aspects as a form of contingency for the worst cases, but it's not needed to exist in multiple spheres.

In the case of some interloper gods, like the Seldarine, it's more that the elves migrated and left their original world, so the largest center of worship of the Seldarine shifted to other worlds. They still live in Arvandor, tho, they didn't develop Toril-specific aspects, that I know (the only ones among them who effectively migrated are Lolth and her children, as the former was sent into the Abyss, the latter wandered among their people for a while, and then took home in other outer planes).
CorellonsDevout Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 17:57:01
While it isn't impossible for deities to originate from balls of energy (a Lolth-ball, for example, and all the other Lolths of the world stem from that. They may have different personalities and origins within those worlds), and this does help explain the mutli-spheric aspect, I also don't see why all the various deities can't be just that--various deities. Yeah, some of them might be aspects of each other, but I think we sometimes try to "tone down" the pantheons too much by making one deity just an aspect of another, when I don't see why we can't just acknowledge the fact that there are MANY deities out there, and some of them are similar to each other, and some are different. It's like people. Some of us are alike, but we're still individuals.

You of course have deities who are multi-spheric (Lolth existing in FR and in Greyhawk), and this could mean they all extend from a "Lolth-ball" (rhymes with moth-ball lol), but it could also have other implications, too. Even the deities exist in the multiverse, and so it *is* possible that there are multiple Lolths, existing in parallel dimensions to each other. Or, Lolth spreads herself through the universe, and each Lolth is part of the "original Lolth", because they are all her essence. This would explain why, to truly kill a deity, you would have to erase them from the entire multiverse--destroy their essence. This would also explain the interloper deities, who came from elsewhere. They didn't come from a ball of energy, they migrated.

I think we try to simplify things too much by trying to fit the deities in certain boxes. Divinity is complicated, and there are many gods out there LOL, and they all have personalities and histories.
Irennan Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 12:02:04
@Markustay

I didn't mean to say that it was impossible, especially in a world of fantasy--even more so in one whose rules and continuity have been broken to the point that they're now reduced to some kind of fine mist.

What I meant is that giving a look at the history that we know, conflating Selune/Sehanine and so on together requires quite a lot of assumptions, and while I agree that it's fun, a more direct reasoning leads to exclude that possibility. Especially in the case of drastically different deities (I mean, yes, aspect could acquire their own traits, but when they differ from the original deity to the point of being unrecognizable, then they're no longer aspects. They might have been once, but they no longer are. They're just their own being).

As for the speculation about Selune, she clearly exists (for example, she had a mortal form during the ToT). I try to not let corporate directives influence the lore. If WotC doesn't like Selune it doesn't mean that she doesn't exist. As you say, all the material that we get can be seen as some mortal's perspective, and that can easily be incomplete or outright wrong. Selune is a subtle deity, maybe mortals didn't notice her involvment, but she's always been there (but really, it all boils down to corporate preferences. WotC plays favorites--A LOT. We've seen it countless times. They even got to the point of removing a whole pantheon and entire cultures while throwing mud on all of them and distorting them to the point of unlikability, just because they wanted to make Drizzt even "moar speshul". And then they quietly restored all of them w/o even giving them a proper novel or explanation--up to now, I hope that this Mordenkainen's book will change the situation).

As for my personal take on this, I honestly don't really like deities as these ever-mutable "balls of energy". It makes them rather uninteresting to me, and also very vague. I mean, energy is not some kind of shining liquid substance, energy is in everything. So--to me--a deity being a ball of energy means no more and no less than a human also being a "ball" of energy. I like gods when they're also humans (not excessively so, like WotC had them, but they need to be more human than alien). Some of them can be alien (those who are forces of nature), but deities like Helm, Torm, Bane, the racial pantheons, etc... they're more rooted in the mortal world. Given their portfolio, history, goals it only feels right for them to be closer to "human" in outlook and beliefs than those abstract concepts. I don't think that all deities should share the same nature.

Besides, while discussing the "metaphysics" of these balls of energy can be entertaining, they don't really have much value as characters, if they're just those alien blobs. The complexity of the setting gets richer, but the value added to the story gets lower. That's my personal take on this anyway.
Lord Karsus Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 06:58:49
-It's times like this that the Athar are right.
Markustay Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 18:20:24
As much as I love On Hallowed Ground, a LOT of that has to just be ignored now, post-2e. 4e retconned great swaths of it.

And, if you go with everything I've said about aspects, then it is entirely possible that Selūne is a Sphere-specific aspect of a more ancient deity, and what happened in Realmspace merely reflects a greater 'cosmic conflict' that was occurring at the time (The Godswar). As I've stated numerous times - aspects don't even have to be all that similar; they are based primarily on mortal beliefs. And you CAN have a room full of them all having a conversation - and disagreeing - with each other (like Jack Sparrow in At World's End - "My peanut!")

You can look at it like this - Beshaba and Tymora were just aspects of Tyche - two 'sides' of her. They are nothing alike, yet they were both 'Tyche'. PLUS, Tyche does still definitely exist as well - its just that in Realmspace two of her aspects have 'gone rogue', so to speak. Hell, if Manshoon can go to war with himself, I don't see why Gods can't.

This also means that gods who belong to multiple pantheons - and there are even a bunch who do this in RW mythology (Set has had children with deities from TWO other pantheons, Hermes appears in several, and Ki is also Omnispheric and multipantheonic - our version is called MielikKi, and there IS an elven version of her as well - Khalreshaar) - CAN be found 'lounging around' in other pantheons 'headquarters', or even in other Godly domains. The existence of a version of 'The Moon Goddess' does not preclude a different version of her somewhere else. We can look at On hallowed Ground as something written from a mortal (Clueless) perspective.

And lastly, I am not all that sure 'Selūne' actually exists. If she is Shar's opposite, then why is it always Mystra who's battling Shar? I think 'Mystra' is to Tymora what 'Shar' is to Beshaba - two halves a deity that is just a 'memory' (and like Tyche, Selūne - as Sehanine - can still exist in other spheres, thus she does still technically have a 'presence', but its more like a vestige in The Realms). And if you bring-up Selūne 'church', then I'd just like to point out the fact that there are people STILL worshiping Tyche - and receiving spells from 'her' - in The Realms (she even had a major temple in Cormyr just a couple centuries back).

This is why I relate the whole 'God Thing' to my old 'lavalamp' theory - divinity is just a lavalamp, and it is constantly in motion, breaking apart, going back together, creating new things that also break apart and reform - 'divinity' is NOT static. Gods absorb each other (aspects, really) and split apart all the time. Or maybe gods are just uber-trolls - you 'cut off a finger', and with a little care & attention, you can 'grow' a brand new one.

Thus, Lolth and Shar can be two different aspects of Araushnee... who no longer exists. There was two 'sides' to Araushnee as well, and we know where some of that went - it became the Demon-Queen Lolth. That doesn't mean another chunk of her could have wound up somewhere else, as someone else. In fact, this can also help explain how the Dark Elves - her 'children' - could have existed for so long in the realms without her knowing about it - because Realmspace already had a different aspect of her. It was only the 'Lolth' aspect of Araushnee that hadn't stumbled upon Toril. And if some of what I suspect concerning Shar is true (relating to Abeir), then it all makes perfect sense (to me, anyway).

But to mortals, NONE of that really makes a bit of difference, because you can worship a God a hundred different ways as a hundred different aspects, and each will be 'true'. Each aspect is no less 'real' than any other. RW humans can have multiple-personality disorder; Gods are just capable of fashioning bodies for them, is all.
Irennan Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 11:18:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Unless Lolth is Shar... and there IS a heresy to that effect.

Now, we can just laugh-off heresies, but around the same time we learned of that one, we learned of the heresy that Layhander was just a different aspect of Aumantor, which turned out to be RUE in 4e.

Of course, it turned out to be UNTRUE in 5e, but i don't really think of a lot of the deific stuff as 'retcons', so much as The Gods (and Ao) obfuscating the truth (so the truth could be as simple as Ao telling all these 'aspects of...' gods to go back to the way things used to be, and convince people each aspect is a separate being. To mortals, it really makes no difference.

Because of what happened with The Raven Queen (she was 'reborn' as something different), I am starting to see more versatility in my ideas about 'aspects', and a deity can be 'shattered' into different aspects, just as Tych was torn into Beshaba and Tymora, and they can also be 'put together', like we see with Angharradh, and a deity can also 'go nuts', which is what I'm pretty-sure happened to Selūne (or rather, the goddess that was separated into Selūne and Shar). So we got a big event in FR's past where a major deity separates, and we have lore about female elven deities becoming 'conjoined'. And now we also know that one of those Seldarine involved - Sehanine - is also Selūne.

So it seems to me it IS entirely possible that Lolth turns out to be an elven aspect of Shar - that her bid to create the 'Demon Weave' was actually just her trying to reboot the Shadoweave (and once again - Lolth's followers were the Shadar-Kai - a group of elves that attached themselves to shadow). This modifies our setting-specific creation myths very little; If Angharradh is the 'proto-goddess', then two pieces of her would be Sehanine/Selūne and Araushnee/Shar. I just notice something... if you spell her original name backwards its Eenhsuar... almost like 'Shar'. Kinda like how 'Sune(v)' is 'Venus' backwards... who is also Hanali... who is also part of Angharradh.

And it's not like Mask & Vhaeruaun have anything in common... like their holy symbol...



But how does Selune=Sehanine and the likes make any sense, given that the elven deities are clearly interlopers, while Selune is *not* a multispheric deity (we know that from On Hallowed Ground). Selune was already there when Sehanine&Co arrived to Toril, so that would raise a clear issue.

The only way for that to happen would be for Selune to subsume Sehanine. While I can see that happening for Shar and Lolth, it's unlikely that two deities like Selune and Sehanine would try to kill each other, especially when there was no reason for them to merge or fight over portfolios (and even then, Vhaeraun would be already there before Mask, since Lolth's twins were born before she even set foot on Toril. Unless you meant that Mask is the human form of Vhaeraun, and not the other way around. Honestly, tho, there's a quite close analogy between Vhaeraun and Mask, and Eilistraee and Lliira).

I give you that, since Shar is known to have extended her influence to other spheres (and then destroy them), it might be possible that Lolth=Shar. However, they're so deeply different that it really seems unlikely to me. For example, their goals couldn't be more distant (one wants to disintegrate everything, the other only wants to dominated and be worshipped by everyone). The Demon Weave was doomed to fail before it even started, because--according to Ed--Lolth simply didn't have the ability to sustain a Weave (and you'd expect the elven aspect of Shar to at least have decent skills in that regard, since Shar sustained her Shadow Weave for a very long time). They are also enemies (Shar is losted as Vhaeraun's ally).
Markustay Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 05:34:49
Unless Lolth is Shar... and there IS a heresy to that effect.

Now, we can just laugh-off heresies, but around the same time we learned of that one, we learned of the heresy that Lathander was just a different aspect of Aumantor, which turned out to be TRUE in 4e.

Of course, it turned out to be UNTRUE in 5e, but i don't really think of a lot of the deific stuff as 'retcons', so much as The Gods (and Ao) obfuscating the truth (so the truth could be as simple as Ao telling all these 'aspects of...' gods to go back to the way things used to be, and convince people each aspect is a separate being). To mortals, it really makes no difference.

Because of what happened with The Raven Queen (she was 'reborn' as something different), I am starting to see more versatility in my ideas about 'aspects', and a deity can be 'shattered' into different aspects, just as Tych was torn into Beshaba and Tymora, and they can also be 'put together', like we see with Angharradh, and a deity can also 'go nuts', which is what I'm pretty-sure happened to Selūne (or rather, the goddess that was separated into Selūne and Shar). So we got a big event in FR's past where a major deity separates, and we have lore about female elven deities becoming 'conjoined'. And now we also know that one of those Seldarine involved - Sehanine - is also Selūne.

So it seems to me it IS entirely possible that Lolth turns out to be an elven aspect of Shar - that her bid to create the 'Demon Weave' was actually just her trying to reboot the Shadoweave (and once again - Lolth's followers were the Shadar-Kai - a group of elves that attached themselves to shadow). This modifies our setting-specific creation myths very little; If Angharradh is the 'proto-goddess', then two pieces of her would be Sehanine/Selūne and Araushnee/Shar. I just notice something... if you spell her original name backwards its Eenhsuar... almost like 'Shar'. Kinda like how 'Sune(v)' is 'Venus' backwards... who is also Hanali... who is also part of Angharradh.

And it's not like Mask & Vhaeruaun have anything in common... like their holy symbol...
Gyor Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 03:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Mask is the son of Shar originally...


-We've known this since the Twilight War trilogy.



Yeah I know, but it was suggested that Mask and Vharuen are just different aspects of the same God, but they aren't.
Lord Karsus Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 02:13:53
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Mask is the son of Shar originally...


-We've known this since the Twilight War trilogy.

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