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Dalor Darden Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 23:17:22
So way back when, Gruumsh allied with Lolth and Malar...

This story is taken almost directly from Morgoth's alliance with Ungoliant (and Malar would be Sauron as the Werewolf).

Which brings me to an interesting idea:

What if the Forgotten Realms IS connected to Middle-Earth in a fashion?

I haven't hammered it out in my head yet how it would work; but if we look at some of the Legends of Faerun as modified Legends of Middle-Earth...they pretty much tell the same tale.
29   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Markustay Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 00:20:54
There is no such thing as 'Canada'.

Thats just America's "backyard". We keep our dog tied up back there.
Lord Karsus Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 21:25:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Just like the current Britomericaussie culture.

-Poor Canada
sfdragon Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 07:53:04
had not heard of the sharakim.

though when I wnet and looked it said that they were once human before eating the flesh of a sacred animal/////. would type more but the shower beckons and I wont get cleaner posting
Markustay Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 03:13:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Does anyone have an idea they can field as to how we could explain the rapid cycle of changes in the Orc Gods' alignments and home plane?

The simplest answer I could provide is the one I tend to fall back on - Dogma. What the worshipers believe to be true, becomes the truth. And that truth - and the god itself - can be different from sphere to sphere. All versions are true at the same time, because at the end of the day, truth actually doesn't matter at all. Only what people believe to be true matters. That becomes your reality.

But for a more complex answer, a long time ago I thought about the change from 1st edition, and I just assumed that when he first fought with Corellon and the Seldarine, he was looking for any allies he can find. And where's the first place a person should go looking for allies? The opposite end of the alignment spectrum, of course. Thus, gruumsh wasn't really Lawful. In fact, thats what his fight with Corellon was about (he felt Corellon wasn't 'free' {chaotic} enough - that he wasn't being true to his elven heritage. He wasn't being 'random', which fey are known for). In this, Araushnee sided with Gruumsh, and it stung the arrogan pri.. ummm... Elven god.

So Gruumsh leaves the battlefield holding his bloody eye-socket, and heads for hell, where he knows he'll find folks that would love to kick-arse on some chaotic-Goody Goodies. He feigned lawfulness, for time, because of his agenda. After awhile it sickened him too much (plus, Asmodeus was trying to control/manipulate him), so he moved over to the chaotic Evil camp, where he belonged.

As for any other changes - including the way he looks in depictions of him and when he manifests - it all comes down to dogma. If he has one really wacky tribe that happens to have great numbers (and thus provides him with mucho power), and they think he's the God of rainbows, unicorns, and jellybeans, when he appears before him, he'll be all about those things. If there's one thing gods learn to do very well, very early-on (and Gruumsh has been around for over 35K years), its LIE. He'll fart jellybeans if that's what they want. Its called diplomacy, and even a mook like Gruumsh learns some of it. Which brings me to...

Why does everyone think Orcs were always stupid? (Demi)human pivilege, much? The ancient chinese and Indians had vast, complex, and sophisticated empires 5-9000 years ago. Some folks even beleive the Aztecs and the Egyptians had world-spanning trading empires (there is actual evidence of this - tobacco from S. America was found in Egyptian tombs). There are even some theories that both of those may have even risen to a point of sophistication that surpassed us, but all of it was lost over thousands of years (one good solar flare and it could happen again - take out ALL tech for a century). And then there are the even wilder theories of even more ancient empires, like Atlantis, Mu, and Lemuria. And perhaps hundreds we never heard of, because they're buried some 30K years ago in some cataclysm.

So, about those Orcs - we have PROOF that they had a higher level of sophistication in FR than they currently do. At least one group did, at any rate. When Drizzt & co, found that odd city - Baffenburg (*argh* I even hate typing that awful name) - it was a settlement that consisted of highly organized, skilled, sophisticated Orcs and dwarves... TOGETHER. Living and working together. In harmony.

And then when we look a little further afield, we have the Scro, and the Sharakim (not to mention the peaceful Ondonti). The Scro are 'better' orcs, and the sharakim have a level of Sophistication to rival any human or elvish kingdom. In fact, i think that Baffenburg was Sharakim - perhaps a group that Spelljammed or came through a Gate and got 'stuck'.

Twenty Thousand years ago the Orcs of Faerūn could have had a magnificent intergalactic empire, and wed never even know it. Ya know why? because humans (and demi-humans to some extent) rule now, and THEY are the ones writing the current history books. Just like the current Britomericaussie culture. Do you really want anyone to know someone may have once been better than us? Thats not how it works. Thats not how it works at all. You erase the past, and force people to concentrate on the current issues (that you usual create to keep your subjects busy). So stopping thinking of the orcs as a race that was always savage, and start thinking of them as a race that was once just as sophisticated and cultured as the elves. Whatever happened, THEY LOST. And that's what happens to the losers in any conflict - they get painted as 'the evil ones'.

Denied their freedom, denied their fair share of the land, and denied their dignity - the final insult. Can you blame them, now?

"They treat us like monsters, so we BE monsters!" - General Vraak, of Zhentil Keep, given a medal by King Azoun for his valor during the Tuigan War


And THAT is CANON, baby.
Lord Karsus Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 22:24:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Because Orcs aren't at all known for their writing and rely almost exclusively on verbal history it is easy to think that their origin has been written for them by other peoples.

The one thing I find very odd is why the Orc Gods allow things to be this way if they know the truth.


-Or, it is the truth, and Gruumsh keeps the legends and stories alive through the shaman and priests that commune with him. Orc society was never something that interested me much, and I've forgotten a lot over the years, but if I am remembering correctly, those shaman and priests generally are in charge of tribes, or have special places of power in them.
Dalor Darden Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 19:07:11
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I think it is obvious that literally every modern fantasy writing is based, at least in small ways, on the writings of Tolkien. No-Brainer. And of course he drew influences from various mythologies. All that is besides the point if you ask me.

The question here is are they (or can they be without much revamping) directly connected. My answer here would be no. The only thing you'd get by forcing these fantasy worlds into alignment is a watered down version of one or the other and who would want that? I don't understand the impulse at all.



Your opinion not withstanding, there are others that would enjoy it.
The Masked Mage Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 18:59:08
I think it is obvious that literally every modern fantasy writing is based, at least in small ways, on the writings of Tolkien. No-Brainer. And of course he drew influences from various mythologies. All that is besides the point if you ask me.

The question here is are they (or can they be without much revamping) directly connected. My answer here would be no. The only thing you'd get by forcing these fantasy worlds into alignment is a watered down version of one or the other and who would want that? I don't understand the impulse at all.
Zeromaru X Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 18:22:01
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EVERYONE rips off Tolkien.

its his fault we have 6' tall elves. Elves were supposed to be the cute little ones, and he screwed that all up. He should have used 'Fey' (I guess 'fairy' at that time already meant something else, so I guess it wasn't entirely his fault).


In fact, elves (alfar) have to be like the Vanir gods from Norse "mythology". Freyr (brother of Freya) was even considered the "King of the Elves".

The little cute ones came later, when people wanted to demonize every tradition that was not christian and, as elves were usually associated with illness, most scholars of the early 1000th millennium imagined elves were small, invisible, demonic beings, causing illness with arrows.

Tolkien just copy-pasted Nordic traditions in his stories (Gandalf, Mirthwood, and others, are just straight copy-pastes from Sturlusson).

I guess that the only originals Tolkien ever created were the halflings. Even orcs were copy-pasted from other creature that appears in Beowulf...
Wooly Rupert Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 18:21:17
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden


Does anyone have an idea they can field as to how we could explain the rapid cycle of changes in the Orc Gods' alignments and home plane?



Corruption? Changing their nature because of ongoing wars with other powers (becoming more of one alignment than another, because of the constant fighting, etc)?
Dalor Darden Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 17:20:15
Because Orcs aren't at all known for their writing and rely almost exclusively on verbal history it is easy to think that their origin has been written for them by other peoples.

The one thing I find very odd is why the Orc Gods allow things to be this way if they know the truth.

It makes me wonder if Gruumsh keeps the Orcs ignorant of their origin and allows others to write them as having always been the "monsters" that they are.

Originally Gruumsh was written as a Lawful Evil God who resided in Hell...a diametrically opposed plane to the Chaotic Good plane that the Elven gods resided in.

This was later changed to Acheron, and then changed again and again with even Gruumsh's alignment being changed. Its almost like the evolving Orcs in Faerun (from having King Graul who ruled in the North to just ravaging hordes of idiots) caused a shift in how authors thought about the Orcs.

I've had a hard time with this for decades now, and I think that just because the Mountain Orcs of the North are so chaotic doesn't mean that all orcs should be this way.

Does anyone have an idea they can field as to how we could explain the rapid cycle of changes in the Orc Gods' alignments and home plane?
Markustay Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 10:17:41
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

This is an extremely superficial way of looking at things and you know it. All this tells me is that the Forgotten Realms rips off Tolkien.
EVERYONE rips off Tolkien.

its his fault we have 6' tall elves. Elves were supposed to be the cute little ones, and he screwed that all up. He should have used 'Fey' (I guess 'fairy' at that time already meant something else, so I guess it wasn't entirely his fault).

But if Tolkien hadn't used the word the way he did, things would be VERY different now, because he became the 'standard' for all things fantasy. I mean, D&D has halflings for gosh sakes! They came from nowhere else but HIM.
Markustay Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 10:12:59
In some of my aerliest musings, i had it where threir names were originally Cor'Ellion, and Gru-Maas. Cor ='Holy' and Ellion ='light' in old high fey (Hamafae), thus in Fae his name was 'Holy Light'. Gru ='wild' (or even 'savage') and Maas ='spirit' (and is where we get the Latin word 'mass', from), so he was the unruly brother, 'Wild Spirit'.

He had that name BEFORE he lost his eye - it CAN'T be related. Plus, it was probably just an accident with a Red-Rider BB Gun.

"And the two brothers fought, and where Corellon's blood spilled, Eldarin sprang up, and where Gruumsh's blood spilled, Orcarin sprang forth. And the two fought to a standstill, and withdrew. Their cousin Araushnee had arrived on the field, bearing news of the Dawning of War"

"After the Dawn War, the two brothers went back to bickering. Many gods who had been allies turned on one another, including the pair, and so the Godswar began, soon after the other conflict. The battle only ended when Corellon took-out the eye of his brother, and then Corellon wept, and where his tears fell, the elves were born from the soil. But where Gruumsh went, ichor dripping from his empty socket, the Goblins sprang in his wake"

--- Excerpts from the Tablets of Destiny, from the great library on Kule

Dalor Darden Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 05:14:07
Inspiration is what it is. It is nearly impossible to write fantasy without being influenced by what has come before.
LordofBones Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 04:24:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I'd have an easier time fitting Azeroth in the cosmology.

I'd stay far, far away from fitting Middle-Earth into the D&D cosmology. Nothing is compatible.

NOTHING is compatible?

Valar = Vanar (Norse) = Seldarine

A dwarven king seeks to regain his lost kingdom taken by a dragon under a mountain. Although an entire kingdom of dwarves could not defeat said dragon, he decides to try with just a small group of companions... and one halfling with a very powerful magic artifact... who'd rather be home sleeping than on some adventure.

And they also bring along Conan, who happens to have Thor's Hammer.

Yup... NO similarities between the Realms and Middle-Earth as all...


Geeze, even the maps are laid-out similar.

The main difference is that all our 'big bads' are female (Lolth, Shar, etc), rather than dudes (Sauron, Morgoth). Thats more of a subconscious decision having to do with the authors, though... but I'll keep my 'armchair psychologist' to myself just this once.



This is an extremely superficial way of looking at things and you know it. All this tells me is that the Forgotten Realms rips off Tolkien.

Sauron and Morgoth have a lot more to do with JRRT's views on the nature of Evil rather than the Realms' big bad of the week philosophy. The Hobbit draws from Norse myth and Tolkien's own attempt to build a mythology for Britain.
Lord Karsus Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 02:55:56
-Gruumsh led Orcs down the path of destruction and savagery because he was trying to be overly macho to make up for his womanly one eye. Tragedy.
Dalor Darden Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 21:49:10
Looking at the most strict interpretation of Gruumsh's name in Black Speech I get:

Gru = Woman

um = 'ness

Ash = One

Su = Eye

Gruumashsu = Gruumsh = Womanly One-Eye



EDIT:

No wonder he doesn't like anyone to say his name!

This could mean that he IS an ugly Elf though!
The Masked Mage Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 21:45:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

EDIT:

Lolth was formerly Araushnee, the lesser elven goddess of destiny...



Thus the comparison to Istus, weaver and goddess of fate
Dalor Darden Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 21:28:49
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Since Morgoth was cast out of Arda into the Void; it isn't impossible to imagine him not just sitting out there sulking like an infant. After all, he is destined to go back and destroy Middle-Earth; so he will have to have an army.


Tharizdun might be a good parallel for Morgoth, since he is an ancient deity that was cast into a prison from which he plots to escape and destroy everything.


I had that exact same thought a while back when I was playing a game in Greyhawk; but I didn't remember it until you just said that.

See...parallel Multi-Verses at work doing the same thing.
Storyteller Hero Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 19:49:22
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden



Since Morgoth was cast out of Arda into the Void; it isn't impossible to imagine him not just sitting out there sulking like an infant. After all, he is destined to go back and destroy Middle-Earth; so he will have to have an army.





Tharizdun might be a good parallel for Morgoth, since he is an ancient deity that was cast into a prison from which he plots to escape and destroy everything.

Markustay Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 19:01:19
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I'd have an easier time fitting Azeroth in the cosmology.

I'd stay far, far away from fitting Middle-Earth into the D&D cosmology. Nothing is compatible.

NOTHING is compatible?

Valar = Vanar (Norse) = Seldarine

A dwarven king seeks to regain his lost kingdom taken by a dragon under a mountain. Although an entire kingdom of dwarves could not defeat said dragon, he decides to try with just a small group of companions... and one halfling with a very powerful magic artifact... who'd rather be home sleeping than on some adventure.

And they also bring along Conan, who happens to have Thor's Hammer.

Yup... NO similarities between the Realms and Middle-Earth as all...


Geeze, even the maps are laid-out similar.

The main difference is that all our 'big bads' are female (Lolth, Shar, etc), rather than dudes (Sauron, Morgoth). Thats more of a subconscious decision having to do with the authors, though... but I'll keep my 'armchair psychologist' to myself just this once.
Dalor Darden Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 18:47:02
Regarding Melkor and Gruumsh:

I'm not saying they are the same individual...only that the similarity could be interpreted by Orcs...or even that Sauron could be interpreted as Gruumsh and viceversa. Especially since they are both "The Eye that Never Sleeps" essentially.

What I'm getting at here isn't directly tying the two together and saying "Gruumsh IS Morgoth" but instead saying that there are similarities that primitive people could tie together.

Since Morgoth was cast out of Arda into the Void; it isn't impossible to imagine him not just sitting out there sulking like an infant. After all, he is destined to go back and destroy Middle-Earth; so he will have to have an army.

Also, as an aside, Middle-Earth has its own Overgod like the Forgotten Realms does. So there are numerous similarities.

The gist of what I'm getting to is that parallel Universes (Multi-Verses?) can have similar things happen.

What if Gruumsh didn't create the Orcs of the D&D Universe? What if they were simply taken over by him. There is evidence, strong evidence, that the early Orcs of the Forgotten Realms didn't even worship Gruumsh until later.

What if, instead, they followed Demons. There isn't a person in the WORLD that disputes the fact that the Balor and Balrog are exactly the same thing if they have found out how the Balor came to be.

So what if the Orcs were following Balor originally (just as they did in Middle-Earth during the First Age when Balrogs were their generals) until the time that Gruumsh became their God?

What if Gruumsh became their God because a shadow whispered in his ear? Gruumsh and Corellon are brothers right...

Corellon is the God of Magic. Cormallen is the Sindarin elvish word for Ring Bearer (when applied to the Rings of Power).

I can go all day long showing the influences of Tolkien's Middle-Earth on Gygax's and other's creative minds...but suffice it to say that it isn't hard to see the similarities between Gruumsh and Morgoth.

Especially if you think that Gruumsh, in jealousy, twisted elves into his own race of orcs.
Dalor Darden Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 17:52:39
You are wanting a direct connection...it rarely works that way in Mythology.

Zeus and Pazuzu stem from the same origin...but have NO similarity due to time and interpretation upon interpretation.

The symbolism is very similar.

EDIT:

Lolth was formerly Araushnee, the lesser elven goddess of destiny...
The Masked Mage Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 17:48:38
Ok. More specific:

Ungoliant is the incarnation of darkness. She is consumed with hunger for light and the fire of souls. There is no comparison between Ungoliant and Lolth accept they both have a visual similarity to spiders. Ungoliant is an elder spirit. Were you to compare her to anyone/anything in FR it would have to be the Night Serpent for its desire to consume souls and Shar for her desire to consume life and light.

Similarly, Morgoth is the incarnation of evil and strife. Morgoth was Melkor - the most powerful of the gods (Valar). What makes him fundamentally different from any god in the FR is that he wants to create life but none of the gods accept Eru (Ao), have that power. I said Bane because Bane is the quintessential conqueror who thrives on tyranny and strife. Still, the correlation is poor at best.

The closest god in ME to Malar is Orome, though he is never seen as any kind of beast. In truth he's more similar to Ehlonna from Greyhawk than any in FR.

The most similar gods Lolth and to the Elven Pantheon would be Vaire, the Weaver. Again, she translates better to a Greyhawk goddess, Istus.

Aside from the fact that a god turns against the other gods and is defeated, I don't really see any other direct similarity. Lolth was banished. Melkor was imprisoned and forgiven then escaped.
Dalor Darden Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 16:35:57
Did you guys read Evermeet?

The RESEMBLANCE is obvious. I didn't say it was word for word.
LordofBones Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 15:35:30
I'd have an easier time fitting Azeroth in the cosmology.

I'd stay far, far away from fitting Middle-Earth into the D&D cosmology. Nothing is compatible.
sleyvas Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 15:31:00
The big issue I see is that anything done will A) not be accepted by the community and B) opens up legal issues (I don't see anyone following through on such, but risk v/s reward).
The Masked Mage Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 15:22:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

So way back when, Gruumsh allied with Lolth and Malar...

This story is taken almost directly from Morgoth's alliance with Ungoliant (and Malar would be Sauron as the Werewolf).

Which brings me to an interesting idea:

What if the Forgotten Realms IS connected to Middle-Earth in a fashion?

I haven't hammered it out in my head yet how it would work; but if we look at some of the Legends of Faerun as modified Legends of Middle-Earth...they pretty much tell the same tale.



If anyone, Ungoliant lines up with Shar. The devourer of worlds. Lolth likes spiders but wants to control the universe, not destroy it.

There is no real parallel with Morgoth... except perhaps if you make Bane bigger and badder.

Sauron is a servant of Morgoth, not a god in his own right, just like the Istari.

I don't have a huge issue with connecting to Middle earth, except that nothing is easily compatible. From cosmology to magic to money to races, nothing lines up so you'd have serious issues there.
Lord Karsus Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 01:10:45
-You could probably ask Elaine Cunningham if that part from Evermeet was intentional.
Storyteller Hero Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 23:40:33
You can reach Middle Earth from the Infinite Staircase in Selune's divine residence, or possibly a portal in Sigil, the City of Doors.

Also, if you make Middle Earth one of the worlds involved in the Dawn War, you could connect histories that way as well.




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