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Caolin Posted - 11 Jan 2018 : 06:45:54
One of my biggest concerns with the ending of the novel line was the lack of interest that could spawn from such a move. I think it was under appreciated how much interest in D&D and FR the novels generated. And here I am, checking in on Candlekeep out of sheer habit thinking to myself "would I even care if a new novel came out?". I had a chance to sit in on a D&D session last weekend and I passed on it. I've moved onto reading other settings like the Expanse and G.R.R.M's works and I have games like the Witcher to fill my fantasy needs. Reading FR novels filled a big spot in my mind and now that it's filled with other things I don't see me giving all that up just to come back to reading novels that.....let's face it.....aren't up to the Martin or Corey level of writing.

Any ways, not sure what the point of this was. I just had a depressing thought and I wanted to vent. I hope everyone is still enjoying the Realms in some way. I'm not at all, but hopefully someone is.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Spectralballoons Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 12:31:35
Personally, Wh40k has replaced FR, as far as I'm concerned.
>They give their customers gaming material.
So does WoTC. There may be less material, but the average quality is better.
I'm skeptical with regards to whether a movie will actually happen. If it does, let's face it, it probably won't be decent.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 04:32:56
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

The comments above are not wrong, but we can add that when evaluating whether to adapt written works, Hollywood does consider simple name recognition. For example, it's a plus if people recognize the name "Fantastic Four" whether or not anybody is currently reading the comics. Of course, if you invest money making movies that then bomb, perhaps that name recognition becomes less of a factor in your decision making thereafter.



Agreed. In their endless quest to avoid any originality, Hollywood will certainly look at the popularity of any given thing before deciding to make a movie on it... So while a bestselling book isn't guaranteed to be a summer blockbuster movie, that bestselling book certainly has better odds than something no one has ever heard of.

Though it's not that popularity in one media means popularity in another -- it's that something that makes something popular in one media can often do the same in another.

The Fantastic Four comics have been around for decades, and it's because Marvel hit on a good formula for a superhero group. The failure of Hollywood to make that formula work for them is not related to the current sales of the comic.
Richard Lee Byers Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 18:05:48
The comments above are not wrong, but we can add that when evaluating whether to adapt written works, Hollywood does consider simple name recognition. For example, it's a plus if people recognize the name "Fantastic Four" whether or not anybody is currently reading the comics. Of course, if you invest money making movies that then bomb, perhaps that name recognition becomes less of a factor in your decision making thereafter.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 16:08:52
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

This is not so accurate. While killing the comics of the Fantastic 4 killed the movie line as well
I don't think that is accurate. Most people who saw those movies or were in the target audience to potentielly see those movies have never ever read a F4 comic nor are they even aware whether those are still being published or have discontinued.

The F4 line failed because they were not good movies. The reboot failed because it was even worse. Simple as that.

Had they been later MCU quality movies, they would still be going strong with >90% of their audience completely unaware that the comic line has been ended.



Indeed. As I've said more than once, people who read for pleasure -- whether it's comic books, straight fiction, tie-in fiction, or anything else -- are the minority, when it comes to the movie-going public. A best-selling book can be one that sells just 10,000 copies -- if only 10,000 people see a movie, it'll be out on DVD in a month.
Mirtek Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 09:57:05
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

This is not so accurate. While killing the comics of the Fantastic 4 killed the movie line as well
I don't think that is accurate. Most people who saw those movies or were in the target audience to potentielly see those movies have never ever read a F4 comic nor are they even aware whether those are still being published or have discontinued.

The F4 line failed because they were not good movies. The reboot failed because it was even worse. Simple as that.

Had they been later MCU quality movies, they would still be going strong with >90% of their audience completely unaware that the comic line has been ended.
ElaineCunningham Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 18:20:40
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

And yet Paizo, too, has discontinued its fiction line.



Have they actually discontinued it? I've been reading some of the PF novels, and I'm disappointed the novels have stopped, but I heard that was because they were looking for a new publisher.



I don't know whether the discontinuation is permanent or temporary.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 19:22:41
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Im my opinion success is measured by how much it's given to their customers which is why Paizo will always be the better gaming company. They don't do this for profit margins, they do what they do because it's a gaming company run by gamers, not a big corp. They give their customers gaming material. Their business model is better for their customers and not just their pockets. They've managed to find the right balance which is something WoTc will never find.



And yet Paizo, too, has discontinued its fiction line.



That's unfortunate. They had some good stuff.

I have to admit, though, that I discontinued my fiction subscription with Paizo -- I was getting more to read every month than I had time to read.

I like Paizo, but I'm sometimes concerned that they're doing the same thing WotC and TSR both did -- being more concerned with getting something published on a very regular schedule, rather than easing back on the schedule a bit to focus on better offerings. I've liked a lot of their stuff, but there's been more than a few supplements that I've looked at and wondered who could possibly have a need for them.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 18:59:51
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Im my opinion success is measured by how much it's given to their customers which is why Paizo will always be the better gaming company. They don't do this for profit margins, they do what they do because it's a gaming company run by gamers, not a big corp. They give their customers gaming material. Their business model is better for their customers and not just their pockets. They've managed to find the right balance which is something WoTc will never find.



And yet Paizo, too, has discontinued its fiction line.



Have they actually discontinued it? I've been reading some of the PF novels, and I'm disappointed the novels have stopped, but I heard that was because they were looking for a new publisher.
ElaineCunningham Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 18:43:01
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Im my opinion success is measured by how much it's given to their customers which is why Paizo will always be the better gaming company. They don't do this for profit margins, they do what they do because it's a gaming company run by gamers, not a big corp. They give their customers gaming material. Their business model is better for their customers and not just their pockets. They've managed to find the right balance which is something WoTc will never find.



And yet Paizo, too, has discontinued its fiction line.
Shadowsoul Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 15:30:15
Im my opinion success is measured by how much it's given to their customers which is why Paizo will always be the better gaming company. They don't do this for profit margins, they do what they do because it's a gaming company run by gamers, not a big corp. They give their customers gaming material. Their business model is better for their customers and not just their pockets. They've managed to find the right balance which is something WoTc will never find.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 03:14:35
I've not read a Marvel comic in years, and when I was reading them, I was into Ghost Rider and some of the X-books -- so I've basically never read any of the stuff from the MCU.

And yet, I'm a huge huge HUGE fan of the MCU.

I saw the first couple of X-Men movies... But the third one ruined the franchise for me, and even though he was always a favorite, I was unwillingly drug along to see the Wolverine origin movie. I went in with low expectations, and the movie failed to meet them. Since then, I've ignored everything even tangentially X-related, with the exception of the Deadpool movie.

I think part of the strength of the MCU is that you can go into any of those movies without knowing a thing about the character, and still find it very enjoyable.
Zeromaru X Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 21:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

The same is true for Marvel. The comics were starting to wither until the movies started, but you can't really have one without the other. If they stopped making the comics, the movies would lose their audience. Without the movies, the comics will lose the free advertising they need.


This is not so accurate. While killing the comics of the Fantastic 4 killed the movie line as well (got riddance after "Fant4stic"), that didn't worked for X-men. Heck, they even went as far as to kill for reals their emblematic characters (Cyclops, Wolverine, and others), and that didn't worked. People still wanted the X-men, and while Apocalypse wasn't a blockbuster, taught Marvel a lesson (people love X-men), and they had to revive the comic line with the new versions of X-men Blue and X-men Gold, using characters from another timeline to replace the killed ones, like young Cyclops or old man Logan.
Gyor Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 16:59:20
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

To me the novels were a great tie in with the game. They helped make the world come alive and I think it worked. The novels encouraged development of source books and vice versa, though I guess from a sales perspective they may have oversaturated things in the 2E era, which led to the acquisition by Wizards.

And that said, I think the quality of the novels varied tremendously for every Elaine Cunningham and Richard Lee Byers there were at least two folks who's names I forget. Most weren't horrible, but many were meh. Nevertheless, they helped weave the tapestry, and until 4E I read them all, every single one.

The same is true for Marvel. The comics were starting to wither until the movies started, but you can't really have one without the other. If they stopped making the comics, the movies would lose their audience. Without the movies, the comics will lose the free advertising they need.

So I suppose like most folks on this board, I wish they would bring back some of the novels. I'd love to see Kemp and Cunningham finish their story arcs or see new stories from Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak or Richards Baker or Byers.



The comics started to wither because the people in charged picked people for ideological reasons, not comic book love or talent.

The diversity & comics vlogs going to great detail about that.
Gyor Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 16:56:45
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, personally, I think it could be as big as it used to be -- if someone would simply do it.



Yes, I agree with this. WoTC (Hasbro) is too wrapped up in the "new media synergy" thing to understand that they had a committed base of fans to leverage. But they continue to pursue the casual fan at the expense of the committed fan.




Yep, it's sad, hopefully they find someone better to run things.
sleyvas Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 02:00:46
god yes, I would love to see Cunningham finish her stuff with Elaith. Granted, its been so many years, I'd bet it would take her a while to get caught back up. I would love to see something more done with the Brotherhood of the Griffin as well. I'm so far behind on Salvatore's stuff though that I can't honestly say I'd be driven to buy anything from him (I even pushed myself a year or so back to get through all of his novels so that I could read his sundering one... and I think I stopped at the ones with "King" in their name... and I think there's like 6-10 more since that). I'd love to see Ed not do full length novels, but I'd love to see him do some short stories. In fact, I'd love to see some new "Realms of" set of short stories for 5e.... maybe a couple of those anthologies, even if they're set in the past and explore the time post-spellplague but pre-sundering. Hell, I'd love to see them bring in Erin Evans and have her do some exploration of Abeir pre-sundering.... and then do some short stories with other authors based on that as well. All of this could help whet people's appetites, make them ask "what happened next".... meanwhile, they can be planning that out... taking cues from our discussions here, etc...
TomCosta Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 21:28:04
To me the novels were a great tie in with the game. They helped make the world come alive and I think it worked. The novels encouraged development of source books and vice versa, though I guess from a sales perspective they may have oversaturated things in the 2E era, which led to the acquisition by Wizards.

And that said, I think the quality of the novels varied tremendously for every Elaine Cunningham and Richard Lee Byers there were at least two folks who's names I forget. Most weren't horrible, but many were meh. Nevertheless, they helped weave the tapestry, and until 4E I read them all, every single one.

The same is true for Marvel. The comics were starting to wither until the movies started, but you can't really have one without the other. If they stopped making the comics, the movies would lose their audience. Without the movies, the comics will lose the free advertising they need.

So I suppose like most folks on this board, I wish they would bring back some of the novels. I'd love to see Kemp and Cunningham finish their story arcs or see new stories from Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak or Richards Baker or Byers.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 15:42:32
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

It may have been a question of scale. Yes, the novels made money, but did they make enough to impress some highly placed decision maker in Hasbro as worth the trouble? I don't know the answer to that, but if it's no, that could be why the plug was pulled.



From what I've heard, from at least one TSR insider, the problem wasn't the money, the problem was that the company never considered itself to be in the novel business. So even though a lot of people became customers just because of the novels, and even though the novels were more profitable, they were always considered a secondary concern, at best.
Richard Lee Byers Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 15:14:53
It may have been a question of scale. Yes, the novels made money, but did they make enough to impress some highly placed decision maker in Hasbro as worth the trouble? I don't know the answer to that, but if it's no, that could be why the plug was pulled.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 23:48:33
I am a fantasy lover (and I also read a lot of m/m romances. Guilty pleasure), and I was reading fantasy before I was introduced to the Realms. I have other worlds I enjoy, though FR is thus far the only game setting novel line I have read. Well, that isn't entirely true. I have begun reading the Pathfinder novels, but those too are on hiatus, albeit for different reasons.

Anyway, it saddens me that there aren't anymore Realms novels to look forward to, especially as they move on to 5th edition, and made such a big hype about it. While the novels may not have sold as well as other game products, there was still a market for them. There are obviously many people who are upset by the lack of novels. I also remember being able to walk into B&N and see a good selection of FR novels, even during the 4e era. Now, all that is there is Drizzt. I will agree with what others have said in that the novels help bring the setting to life. Yeah, you can do that through gaming (and use your imagination and OCs), but there is something about reading stories set in a world you love.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 15:21:25
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Reading and Audio are just as big as ever. When I ride the bus everyday to and from work, there are loads of people reading from either physical books or e-readers. I see ads for audible all the time. For me, WoTc is basiclly the Simon Cowell of the industry. He turns out mediocre to crap songs and singers that for some reason people like.



I wouldn't say that's a good analogy -- because WotC isn't turning out anything at all other than a trickle of gaming material
Shadowsoul Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 10:30:00
Reading and Audio are just as big as ever. When I ride the bus everyday to and from work, there are loads of people reading from either physical books or e-readers. I see ads for audible all the time. For me, WoTc is basiclly the Simon Cowell of the industry. He turns out mediocre to crap songs and singers that for some reason people like.
Sunderstone Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 01:16:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, personally, I think it could be as big as it used to be -- if someone would simply do it.



Yes, I agree with this. WoTC (Hasbro) is too wrapped up in the "new media synergy" thing to understand that they had a committed base of fans to leverage. But they continue to pursue the casual fan at the expense of the committed fan.




I don't blame them for pursuing the casual fan -- there are more casual fans than dedicated ones. I just have an issue with the fact they seem to have no interest in cultivating new dedicated fans.



I think I would be ok with that if they created a generic vanilla setting for gaming materials and released the IP for the Forgotten Realms back to the TEGG. I'm not sure the causal fan cares as much about Lore or the level of detail and history in the secondary world.

TEGG would be able to give FR fans what they want to plug into the gaming system.
Lord Karsus Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 23:32:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Me, personally, I think it could be as big as it used to be -- if someone would simply do it.


-I just don't see it. Video games have basically taken up the "off beat recreational niche" that D&D and other games used to occupy, except they have an even bigger reach. That's a battle no company can take on.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 18:05:06
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, personally, I think it could be as big as it used to be -- if someone would simply do it.



Yes, I agree with this. WoTC (Hasbro) is too wrapped up in the "new media synergy" thing to understand that they had a committed base of fans to leverage. But they continue to pursue the casual fan at the expense of the committed fan.




I don't blame them for pursuing the casual fan -- there are more casual fans than dedicated ones. I just have an issue with the fact they seem to have no interest in cultivating new dedicated fans.
Caolin Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 16:57:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, personally, I think it could be as big as it used to be -- if someone would simply do it.



Yes, I agree with this. WoTC (Hasbro) is too wrapped up in the "new media synergy" thing to understand that they had a committed base of fans to leverage. But they continue to pursue the casual fan at the expense of the committed fan.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 04:31:16
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Novels, to me anyway, were what made the world feel "alive." Back in the day, maybe I didn't read everything, but I read most of the things that were published. Over the course of any given year from 2003-2008, whatever it was when I was most into the Forgotten Realms, stuff happened in the world. Coupled with sourcebooks, web articles, and DRAGON Magazine, it all made it feel like a living world with stuff that was happening, stuff that I wanted to talk about, etc.

-Fantasy books, physical books, I dunno. It'll never be a "dying industry", but it's a niche thing that definitely isn't as big as it used to be.



Me, personally, I think it could be as big as it used to be -- if someone would simply do it.
Lord Karsus Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 04:00:45
-Novels, to me anyway, were what made the world feel "alive." Back in the day, maybe I didn't read everything, but I read most of the things that were published. Over the course of any given year from 2003-2008, whatever it was when I was most into the Forgotten Realms, stuff happened in the world. Coupled with sourcebooks, web articles, and DRAGON Magazine, it all made it feel like a living world with stuff that was happening, stuff that I wanted to talk about, etc.

-Fantasy books, physical books, I dunno. It'll never be a "dying industry", but it's a niche thing that definitely isn't as big as it used to be.
Caolin Posted - 15 Jan 2018 : 07:53:55
Honestly, I never had a problem with the quality of Realms novels even up til the end. I honestly enjoyed the setting regardless of where it was or who it was about. Back when we had 12 books a year, if you didn't really like a story you had another one coming in a month. The fact that we still have former FR authors still dedicated to the setting shows how special the novels were and still can be.

But the way WoTC has totally handled things has made me feel bitter and unappreciated as a fan. I refuse to support anything from the company until I see some proper attention paid to the FR novel line.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Jan 2018 : 03:58:05
That was part of my issue with the War of the Spider Queen books... Each book having a different author meant character personalities weren't always constant. Most of them stayed pretty close to what had gone before, but there were a couple of very notable personality shifts that were painfully jarring.
ElaineCunningham Posted - 13 Jan 2018 : 18:03:53
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Well said Elaine, and the mere fact that you took a character created by someone else (Elaith Craulnober) and so infused him with such personality that many of us think of him as "yours" just in my mind shows that it CAN be done. Khelben in my mind belongs to Steven Schend. Ed owns Elminster and the Simbul. In my viewpoint, Lauzoril was best portrayed by Lynn Abbey (though I don't see her choosing to tie herself strongly to the realms). Aoth is well done by Richard Lee Beyers. While I can see you guys sharing these individuals, and other writers DO do well in the sharing (for instance, I feel Lauzoril had a decent representation by Mr. Beyers, but he wasn't the focus in that novel). I think that's a key point to this kind of thing is the authors sharing characters, but trying to keep true to each other's visions... and that's not easy. Of course, I'm an outsider, so I can't truly appreciate how hard it can be to herd authors like that, but can only equate it to my current job which sometimes requires an iron fist.... and that's NOT what you want with creative personalities.



It's my observation that the best results are obtained when "signature characters" are written by the authors with whom they're associated. It's entirely possible that someone other than Bob could write a good story about Jarlaxle, someone other than Ed write about Mirt, and so on, but continuity of plot/setting AND characterization are better served by each writer having his or her own corner of the sandbox.

I've written in series that had several authors writing the same characters, and while it can be done, it adds another level of difficulty.

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