| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Buzzcutter |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 01:42:10
Know I've seen the listing somewhere...does anyone know where to find a (near) complete listing the Chosen of all the Gods?
thanx! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Jul 2004 : 05:40:26
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
The old Planescape material has the most info about Sigil, the Lady, and what ever else you need to know about that city.
You could do that. Also, I suggest visiting the site referenced in my signature. There's significant discussion on all aspects of Planescape located there, as well as a freely downloadable 70+ page sourcebook on Sigil post-Faction War.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 22:46:38
quote:
Originally posted by Buzzcutter
Wow, Kuji - your like a machine answering these questions!
thanx bro!
Hhaha. Well that's cause I'm a d&d junkie. Which is why I have over 5000 posts on the WOTC boards. :) |
| Buzzcutter |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 22:36:44
Wow, Kuji - your like a machine answering these questions!
thanx bro! |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 18:31:03
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hmm... I was re-reading Twilight Falling in the Erevis Cale trilogy and I found that Sepharis, the old loremaster in the book was referred to as a "Chosen of Oghma". Sadly, he got his throat ripped out...
I know, that end for the character was a pity as I found him quite entertaining to read about. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 18:13:30
Hmm... I was re-reading Twilight Falling in the Erevis Cale trilogy and I found that Sepharis, the old loremaster in the book was referred to as a "Chosen of Oghma". Sadly, he got his throat ripped out... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 04:59:40
quote:
Originally posted by Buzzcutter
1. What in the blue blazes is "Sigil"?
2. So is it better to be a proxie or a chosen? and what about seraphs?
3. Divine Rank - this is a divine order\race of semi-devine beings, or simply chain-of-command of a given deity?
thanx in advance!
1) Sigil is a city that resides at the top of the Spire in the Outlands if you are using the core cosmology. However, it also exists at the same time as a seperate plane in FR's Tree, and there is a portal to it in one of the adventures in the back of Faiths & Pantheons. It is "ruled" over by the Lady of Pain, what or who she/he/it is no one knows.
From my FAQ on the WOTC FR boards:
In the Great Wheel/Ring it floats atop the spire in the Outlands. In the FR planes it is it's own separate plane like Cynosure. However, according to Rich Sigil also exists at the same time in both the FR tree and in the Wheel/Ring so technically you can explore the planes of the Wheel/Ring by heading to Sigil since it exists in all places since it is a planar crossroads.
It's a huge city and if you picture a wagon wheel turned on its side or the inside of a tire, the buildings are built on the inside part of the wheel or tire. The only way to get into it is by a portal and the Lady controls all portals into and out of it and if you anger her she can shut every one of them down and basically kill off every one inside that needs food, air, and water to survive because air comes in from the Elemental Plane of Air mostly, and food and water is shipped in from the outer planes, etc. Some water also comes from the Elemental Plane of Water as well.
The Lady of Pain (this is not the same person as Loviatar) "rules" over it and she has the power to lock all deities (yes even AO) out of it. If you anger her, harm her city, or her dabus, she has the power to flay the skin off your bones with her shadow or maze you, which sends you to the Ethereal plane in a specially built maze she constructs just for you. She usually doesn't speak either, and if she does it's through her dabus's, which are a race that build and repair Sigil and they talk in picture symbol's called rebus.
The old Planescape material has the most info about Sigil, the Lady, and what ever else you need to know about that city.
2) Proxies are a Planescape term for servants of deities. They are higher then priests, usually. The proxy template can be found, for 3e, in Deities & Demigods, or the Manual of the Planes.
Chosen are FR specific for servants of the deities as well, but they are not the same as Proxies. Seraphs, according to 3e FR material, are the same as Chosen and it is only a title, since Umberlee's and Cyric's Chosens are called Seraphs.
3) Divine Rank is a 3e invention that helps classify the deities power. In 2e all we has was deities that were classified as demi, lesser, intermediate, and greater powers. But 3e further changed that by adding Divine Ranks to the demi, lesser, intermediate, and greater deities. |
| Buzzcutter |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 04:28:25
Ok, so i think that i've established that chosen, proxies, seraphs and the like are all different jobs and such, and not just different words and titles for the same thing. but being completely ignorant of any gaming rules, histories and protocals, i have a few questions:
1. What in the blue blazes is "Sigil"?
2. So is it better to be a proxie or a chosen? and what about seraphs?
3. Divine Rank - this is a divine order\race of semi-devine beings, or simply chain-of-command of a given deity?
thanx in advance! |
| Kuje |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 01:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Good point - (One of) Waukeen's proxies lived in Sigil in For Duty and Deity.
Yup Yup. Also now that I ponder this a little more, it also screws with those deities who have low divine ranks but who had more then one proxy because the deity is then draining away its power making proxies... I guess I just prefer proxies as deity servants that can be created without divine ranks, which is why I still use the old rules in my game. :) |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 00:58:56
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Well I can see the good points and the bad points about the change. To me one of the bad points is that Proxies can't enter Sigil now since they have a divine rank.... Kind of screws up lore since the deities sent Proxies to Sigil to take care of thier problems, requests, etc.....
For those who don't know Planescape lore, the Lady of Pain doesn't usually allow any deity, or in 3e a being with a divine rank, into Sigil. There are some exceptions to this, but not many.
Good point - (One of) Waukeen's proxies lived in Sigil in For Duty and Deity. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 09:37:39
Perhaps the upcoming Planar Handbook will address this proxy issue...
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| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 08:57:19
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
That's true. I'd forgotten about that. Still, there are other ways for deities to "handle" any problems they may have which necessitates a journey to Sigil. These powers have powerful high priests, and uniquely chosen (not to be confused with FR "Chosen") followers, even if they are not proxies. There will always be one member of a deity's clergy that would be willing to undertake any task for his/her god.
Oh, and about those exceptions... You should probably also add that they were almost always "fatal" . . . 
Oh, no doubt they do, but I guess I still prefer proxies that don't have a divine rank. :) |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 04:25:13
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Well I can see the good points and the bad points about the change. To me one of the bad points is that Proxies can't enter Sigil now since they have a divine rank.... Kind of screws up lore since the deities sent Proxies to Sigil to take care of thier problems, requests, etc.....
For those who don't know Planescape lore, the Lady of Pain doesn't usually allow any deity, or in 3e a being with a divine rank, into Sigil. There are some exceptions to this, but not many.
That's true. I'd forgotten about that. Still, there are other ways for deities to "handle" any problems they may have which necessitates a journey to Sigil. These powers have powerful high priests, and uniquely chosen (not to be confused with FR "Chosen") followers, even if they are not proxies. There will always be one member of a deity's clergy that would be willing to undertake any task for his/her god.
Oh, and about those exceptions... You should probably also add that they were almost always "fatal" . . .
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 03:07:51
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Hmmm...interesting. Arguably one could ignore the 3E ruling remove and the divine rank from Proxies or perhaps this would be an argument for deities to need more Chosen to serve their will.
True, grin but I'd rather have them have more proxies since there are to many darn Chosen poping up right and left. :)
I concur. We had more than enough with 2E, and now there's more than that... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 02:31:17
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Hmmm...interesting. Arguably one could ignore the 3E ruling remove and the divine rank from Proxies or perhaps this would be an argument for deities to need more Chosen to serve their will.
True, grin but I'd rather have them have more proxies since there are to many darn Chosen poping up right and left. :) |
| Chyron |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 02:16:10
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
For those who don't know Planescape lore, the Lady of Pain doesn't usually allow any deity, or in 3e a being with a divine rank, into Sigil. There are some exceptions to this, but not many.
Hmmm...interesting. Arguably one could ignore the 3E ruling remove and the divine rank from Proxies or perhaps this would be an argument for deities to need more Chosen to serve their will. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 Jun 2004 : 18:20:36
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
I think I prefer the 3e ruling for this. Now, I know I've had little exposure to gaming in 2e, but just thinking about DMing an adventure which contains a proxy of a deity, makes me prefer the notion that they have at least a base divine rank.
Well I can see the good points and the bad points about the change. To me one of the bad points is that Proxies can't enter Sigil now since they have a divine rank.... Kind of screws up lore since the deities sent Proxies to Sigil to take care of thier problems, requests, etc.....
For those who don't know Planescape lore, the Lady of Pain doesn't usually allow any deity, or in 3e a being with a divine rank, into Sigil. There are some exceptions to this, but not many. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 28 Jun 2004 : 09:46:59
I think I prefer the 3e ruling for this. Now, I know I've had little exposure to gaming in 2e, but just thinking about DMing an adventure which contains a proxy of a deity, makes me prefer the notion that they have at least a base divine rank.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 06:58:30
quote:
Originally posted by Buzzcutter
ok, so it seems that the word "chosen" is thrown around a tad lightly nowadays. fine. however, in Dawn of Night, at the time when Cale finally submits to his "transformation" there is a passage that reads":
"...proxies, chosen, agents, seraphs - they all had many titles."
is this meant to be taken that these titles are each interchangeable, and that there is no difference, or that they are specific and distinct positions and that there is a definate and structured ranking of divine servants after the priest and paladin levels?
See this is where you have to bring in game rules. In 2e Chosen and Proxies were not the same, since Labelas has a npc that is both a Chosen and a Proxy. He appears in Demihuman Deities as well as in On Hallowed Ground for Planescape.
Now in 3e, proxies also take a divine rank to make, while Chosen do not, and the divine rank for a proxy thing was not so in 2e though. |
| Buzzcutter |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 06:10:44
ok, so it seems that the word "chosen" is thrown around a tad lightly nowadays. fine. however, in Dawn of Night, at the time when Cale finally submits to his "transformation" there is a passage that reads":
"...proxies, chosen, agents, seraphs - they all had many titles."
is this meant to be taken that these titles are each interchangeable, and that there is no difference, or that they are specific and distinct positions and that there is a definate and structured ranking of divine servants after the priest and paladin levels? |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 20:25:40
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The point of Mystra's Chosen is that they store part of her power as a safeguard against her destruction, and against possible abuses by her.
What I don't understand is why, when in the 1990s authors thought it would be a good idea to create special divine servants of a kind fundamentally different from Mystra's Chosen, they used the 'Chosen' term for them rather than the pre-existing Planescape idea of proxies (not the way the 3E Deities & Demigods uses the term).
I agree. Chosen were Mystra-specific, and very Realms-y. However there is naught to do now about it now...
My opinions on Mystra's Chosen is made in the 'Migrations to the Shadow Weave' thread.
Ornlu: Thorn was Eilistraee's 'champion', not her Chosen. I assume in stat terms this would mean she would have levels in the Divine Champion PrC.
WINDWALKER SPOLIERS BELOW - highlight to reveal:
However also in Windwalker it is revealed that Liriel was used as an avatar of Lolth and was made her Chosen. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 19:38:09
The point of Mystra's Chosen is that they store part of her power as a safeguard against her destruction, and against possible abuses by her.
What I don't understand is why, when in the 1990s authors thought it would be a good idea to create special divine servants of a kind fundamentally different from Mystra's Chosen, they used the 'Chosen' term for them rather than the pre-existing Planescape idea of proxies (not the way the 3E Deities & Demigods uses the term).quote:
3)What books detal Noumea Drathchuld's and Alvaerele Tasundrym's exploits?
Secrets of the Magister. Nouméa also makes a few short novel appearances. |
| Jlindgren |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 19:27:33
Well we all know that mystra's chosen are different of all others in some areas just because mystra has a diferent relationship with them mother/lover etc. while other gods use mostly their worshippers as chosen as enforcers or messengers of their dogma in the realms, but that IMO is only because 2 facts
1.-Mystra is arguably the most powerful deity in FR so she has the abbility of spreading her power like we all know she does with SF
2.-In her 3 incarnations the last 2 seem to have quite a human streak once in a while (we know midnight's reasons for that)
and in fact i think that ed said that there are some hidden chosen of mystra (so she's the big family type)
but other deities just look for someone/something that really fits his portfolio like fzoul who's the ultimate tyrant and almost all his powers are for oppresing people, etc, we have the kraken that's umberlee's chosen that is a force to be reckoned in the seas of faerun and the leader of the kraken society, we have malik (and this has been a long discussion before chosen or just seraph?) that is unable to die while doing cyric's work etc (as expected for a deity like cyric) and the ultimate IMO power given by a deity cadderly's almost psionic priestly powers so every god has its own "flavor" fo it's chosen and IMO it would be really boring if all of them had the same approach as mystra's chosen so it's unfair judging them based on that.
but if what you wanted was a list i think there's one in the wiz boards (and i think that the malik discussion was in that same thread)
and i really believe that obould is gruumsh's chosen i mean you can't go from "i want to kill dwarves" to "i want to build an orc nation and establish trade with silverymoon using cheap labor from slaves" i mean that's not the so called permanency spell kind of thing that's some serious change but of course you have to read the book (or to a lesser extent play NWN) to see how he became quite a "king" not just a warlord because in the FRCS he's portrayed just like a normal orc. |
| RogueAssassin |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 19:05:02
quote:
I also agree with the thing about only Mystra has chosen, except that Bane definatly has a chosen in Fzoul.
Yeah i was going to say this earlier. Fzoul has more powers than these other 'Godtouched' though not as much as the Choosen of Mystra.
quote:
I tend to see the Chosen of other deities as being something more like "champions" or "special agents" of that deity. Mystra's Chosen are different, since they are actually repositories of her power, as well as special agents.
A good representation of one of these champions is Cadderly, from the Cleric Quintet. He gained his powers by reading The Book of Universal Harmony. I think Denir may have givin him some powers, though i belive the book gave him most of them. Anyone could have weilded those powers, only Cadderly learned how the book worked and was able to use it.
-The Rogue |
| Purple_Faerie Goddess |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 15:58:10
I also agree about Mystra only have chosen. I have only read the first two books of Elminster so far, but I can tell from them that if he had not some of Mystra's power he could not have survived alot of the stuff he had went through. |
| Cherrn |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 15:54:29
Don't forget good ol' Malik Yn Sami El Nassr, The Seraph of Lies, Chosen of Cyric  |
| OrnluTheWolf |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 14:25:16
3 questions:
SPOILERS FOR THE LONE DROW:
1)Would you consider Obould Many-Arrows a chosen of Gruumsh (or a God-Touched, if you wish to use that term instead)? He has been given powers far beyond what a normal worshiper has been given, especially if you consider that the orcs regard great strength, dexterity, and as the criteria for kingship.
***End Spoilers***
2)What about the lytheri from Elaine Cunningham's Windwalker? Isn't she a chosen of Eilistraee?
3)What books detal Noumea Drathchuld's and Alvaerele Tasundrym's exploits?
I also agree with the thing about only Mystra has chosen, except that Bane definatly has a chosen in Fzoul. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 11:24:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I tend to see the Chosen of other deities as being something more like "champions" or "special agents" of that deity. Mystra's Chosen are different, since they are actually repositories of her power, as well as special agents.
That's exactly what I was thinking at the time of my last post above  . But, since you've already mentioned it, I guess I won't worry about editing my original statement.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 11:15:06
Yeah, I feel the same way. Mystra has a reason for her Chosen. The other deities with Chosen do not have these reasons.
I tend to see the Chosen of other deities as being something more like "champions" or "special agents" of that deity. Mystra's Chosen are different, since they are actually repositories of her power, as well as special agents.
Looking at the powers of the Chosen of Silvanus really backs this up. Those folks have some seriously nifty powers not granted to other followers of Silvanus, but they are far from the powers Mystra grants her Chosen. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 11:07:58
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
It may just be me, but I still stick to the "only Mystra has chosen" rule. Her chosen actually contain a portion of her power, which she can draw upon when it is needed. This is quite a different relationship than these other "chosen" have with their deities. Although, a strong argument could be made that Fzoul meets these pre-requisites.
The others I've merely lumped into the category of "god-touched" meaning that they have somehow been blessed with varying degrees of power beyond that of normal worshippers by their gods.
Sarta
I'd have to agree with that as well. The more and more I learn about Realms history (and to a lesser extent, the nature of the various Chosen) the more and more I prefer to think that Mystra's Chosen are simply a unique occurence in the whole of the Realms.
While I never thought of the other "chosen" as "god-touched" in particular, I do consider then something more than just an average worshipper.
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| DDH_101 |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 07:48:14
Sarta, I quite agree with you. The relationship of Mystra and her chosens are different than the other gods. Mystra treats her Chosens as her children and lovers (that's because they are!) while the other gods use theirs as a way of enforcing the deitie's laws and increase their powers. |
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