| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chyron |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 11:18:48
Can anyone tell me which issue of the Dragon Magazine the creatures known as Ghazneths (from the Cormyr saga) appear in? And have they appeared in any other realms products? Thanks  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 22:14:41
I no longer run the Realms, but if i did I would probably just ignore that whole storyline (or at least have it play-out differently).
It does indeed appear to be a major exercise in pointlessness. |
| Azuth |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 00:13:17
I admit I have a problem with the death of a character for no practical reason. While I'm glad they let Ed kill Azuth in his own way, I don't think it really made sense or added to 3E gameplay in any meaningful way. Unless the PCs are actually playing in Cormyr and interacting with the highest nobility, what purpose did it serve? And, why kill Tanalasta? Alusair as Steel Regent with Filfaeril as a Dowager Queen really didn't change the way that the Realms worked. Again, change for change's sake doesn't really amount to much, which is what I take away from the whole Death of the Dragon book. Cormyr, in sharp contrast, gave me tons of Realmslore to use in my campaign, and fleshed out the importance of the elves and the Obarskyrs in marvelous detail.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 21:06:59
The death of Azoun was one of the major changes they wanted for the 3e Realms, so it was part of the design process (although, as you correctly stated, not as pinnacle to the release as the Archwizards series). I still have never read RotA, so I find I often overlook it. 
Interesting about Into the Dragon's Lair - I can definitely see that. The thing was just a mish-mosh - I'm not even sure exactly what the adventure is supposed to be about (it actually takes place after all the novel events, so it's rather anti-climactic). |
| Azuth |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 20:36:09
While I doubt I'd ever use a ghazneth in my campaign, one could certainly set the expectation of killing it as beyond the means of the adventuring party, thus returning it to its prison or trapping it via some other semi-permanent way would be enough to grant XP and call the quest successful.
There are definitly possibilities of crossbreeding, but I don't think we really have enough background info on them to know if they're sterile or not. Of course, you can do whatever you want in your own campaign. 
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| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 20:17:03
Yeah, but you know how these things go. Some evil group/mage/Prieshood/Alien Overmind/Planer meddler/Etc managed to get a hold of him, is intrigued by his inability to die (at their hands), and so conducts a series of experiments, including having succubi and what-not have their way with him.
Until.... SOMETHING is born... something OBSCENE... Bwah ha ha ha! 
Just because Rowan got all goo-goo eyed for Tanaslasta doesn't mean something like the above couldn't have happened (and we have Wulfgar-in-hell as an FR example of something similar).
Basically, a Ghazneth is an Uber-Revenant (Archrevenant?), so it would be fairly easy to tone them down just a tad. Simply combine the physical traits of a Kir-Lanan with the undead nature (and desires) of a Revenant, and you got yourself a lesser Ghazneth.
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| Zireael |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 15:01:26
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
I have to agree with what Azuth mentioned about Rowan and Tanalasta... sigh... they're my fav in the Cormyr saga, just after Alea and Baerauble...
I would love to see a book that further explores Alea and Baerauble's time together. Maybe Alea could even explain the Trees of the Body.
I'd love such a book too, but I don't think it'd happen.
@ MT: Rowan procreating with 'something'?! The only 'something' he'd procreate with was Tana, and he already did that... |
| Blueblade |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 04:18:28
I believe "who wrote what" of DEATH/DRAGON has been thoroughly discussed here in the past.
Troy plotted it all. Ed was waiting for heart surgery at the time, and so wrote the death of Azoun scene first (the chapter that was most important to him, in case he didn't survive the surgery), then worked his way backward through the book, writing the chapters assigned to him. Which were basically the Azoun chapters (so when you're reading about Vangey and the goblins, and Tanalasta and Rowen, it's Troy). And no, I don't think Ed would ever have done anything like the ghazneths, on his own. (I think Troy wrote all or almost all of the ghazneth scenes.) Ed had no input at all into BEYOND THE HIGH ROAD or the decision to "add" additional novels to CORMYR: A NOVEL.
BB |
| Azuth |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 02:40:55
I agree on most points. However, the same could be said of the Tarrasque, I suppose. It's just this huge creature that awakens every so often and eats villages. It's wasted space because I need almost-godlike PCs to even have a chance at beating it. It hasn't stopped them from placing it in the various Monster Manuals/et cetera.
I really felt that Troy Denning struggled in this novel. I just can't attribute most of the parts of the novel I didn't like to Ed. I don't like pointing figers if I can help it, but Ed's writing is usually very fun to read, and I suspect the parts of the book that I most enjoyed were written primarily by Ed.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Although I appreciate all your input, Azuth, there are still far too many 'holes' in the plot, over-all (No finger-pointing here, two authors were involved, and editors, so who knows...)
Considering the series is set in what is THE kingdom of the setting, and was designed to usher-in 3e, I felt it fell way-short of expectations. I enjoyed it, regardless, but it has more holes then a good swiss cheese.
And the adventure module that went with it (that I bought solely to help clear-up some of the inconsistencies) just added to the confusion (seriously, what the heck did Grodd have to do with anything?)
Self-Edit: I had MUCH more here, but while speed-reading through the novel to find all the inconsistencies (I got about a third of the way through it), I realized that it served no positive purpose. I wish always took some time before hitting 'Send' with my posts.
I'll just leave this last bit here, because it at least contributes some-what to what others have commented on, and also the topic itself (small wonders never cease!)
Ghazneth: gawd-awful monster for a D&D setting (as been explained by many others here - its an author's 'anti-Mary-Sue'). Completely useless outside of the novel storyline, and therefor nearly useless to an RPG setting. The only saving's grace is Rowan - hopefully he has found something to procreate with and we can have 'lesser Ghazneths' flying about... ones with less... demanding... 'kill prerequisites'.
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
BUMP!
Why? 
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| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 01:12:20
Although I appreciate all your input, Azuth, there are still far too many 'holes' in the plot, over-all (No finger-pointing here, two authors were involved, and editors, so who knows...)
Considering the series is set in what is THE kingdom of the setting, and was designed to usher-in 3e, I felt it fell way-short of expectations. I enjoyed it, regardless, but it has more holes then a good swiss cheese.
And the adventure module that went with it (that I bought solely to help clear-up some of the inconsistencies) just added to the confusion (seriously, what the heck did Grodd have to do with anything?)
Self-Edit: I had MUCH more here, but while speed-reading through the novel to find all the inconsistencies (I got about a third of the way through it), I realized that it served no positive purpose. I wish I always took some time before hitting 'Send' with my posts.
I'll just leave this last bit here, because it at least contributes some-what to what others have commented on, and also the topic itself (small wonders never cease!)
Ghazneth: gawd-awful monster for a D&D setting (as been explained by many others here - its an author's 'anti-Mary-Sue'). Completely useless outside of the novel storyline, and therefor nearly useless to an RPG setting. The only saving's grace is Rowan - hopefully he has found something to procreate with and we can have 'lesser Ghazneths' flying about... ones with less... demanding... 'kill prerequisites'.
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
BUMP!
Why? |
| Azuth |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 17:54:38
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
I have to agree with what Azuth mentioned about Rowan and Tanalasta... sigh... they're my fav in the Cormyr saga, just after Alea and Baerauble...
I would love to see a book that further explores Alea and Baerauble's time together. Maybe Alea could even explain the Trees of the Body.
|
| Zireael |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 17:47:25
I have to agree with what Azuth mentioned about Rowan and Tanalasta... sigh... they're my fav in the Cormyr saga, just after Alea and Baerauble... |
| Azuth |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 04:53:24
Yes, Dragon is a great place to get creature information. As a subject of study, I find the ghazneths a great plot point to drive a story. I'm not pleased with the outcomes of them in all respects, but they do have a fascinating theory behind them. Troy Denning is no young lad and has many published works to his credit. I found Cormyr to be a great novel. However, only Ed can truly speak to Realms Lore (he would probably disagree) and so I find "co-authorship" of books to be difficult. However, their writing styles are different enough that I can usually tell where Ed's work begins and Troy's ends, and vice-versa.
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Someone mentioned stats on this thread. The Creature Catalog is the best place to get some really nice stats to hundreds of 1e and 2e creatures in D&D, the gazneths being one such group. The authors of those conversions have had a number of published articles in Dragon Magazine (also called the Creature Catalog :D )
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| Razz |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 04:38:00
Someone mentioned stats on this thread. The Creature Catalog is the best place to get some really nice stats to hundreds of 1e and 2e creatures in D&D, the gazneths being one such group. The authors of those conversions have had a number of published articles in Dragon Magazine (also called the Creature Catalog :D ) |
| Azuth |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 19:40:57
I have been interested in the ghazneths for quite some time and so I just reread Death of the Dragon to make sure I have my facts straight, or as much as I can, before answering some of the outstanding questions here.
quote:
Jakk said:I couldn't verify the bit about the ghazneth revival being tied to Tanalasta's resurrection. If someone has a source and page number for me, that would be great
Tanalasta gave Bolovar her pain, which is what he most wanted. ("To win power over him, one must surrender," said Filfaeril on page 124 of the hardcover book) However, resurrecting Tanalasta wouldn't have been a problem. I believe that's why there's a line about Bolovar pulling "something brown" out of her belly and eating it. She states/thinks (?) then that the clerics can't heal her. I don't find that really truthful, as in Cormyr there were bits of flesh that were all that was required to resurrect a member of the Royal Family. Raise Dead and Heal (as I've understood them) or a Resurrection spell should have sufficed.
I can understand why Rowen couldn't be reverted, I think. Since Tanalsta gave birth to Azoun V, he was the right and proper heir to the throne. Because of that, Alusair was not the Queen and Azoun IV died. Only Azoun IV/V or Tanalasta could have "absolved" Rowen of his crime thus without resurrecting Tanalasta, he was bound to be a ghazneth at least until Azoun V was old enough to talk and absolve him. As Vangerdahast says to Tanalasta on page 329 of the hardcover edition, "...And I suspect it must be you or the king himself who'll have to do it. Only the absolution of a direct heir to the crown would have meaning to them." I would have expected Rowen to seek this out so that he could be a father to his son, especially given Chauntea's role in his life, but the character's not mine to write.
quote:
Markustay said: There were some funky rune-encrusted trees involved somehow, IIRC. The novels never really explain how they got there or who created them - it is suggested that they they were an Elven form of burial rarely seen (for traitors?), but the odd part was that the Ghazneths buried beneath were NOT Elven. That means Nalavarauthatoryl must have re-buried them at some point after their deaths.
First, the direct quote from page 113 of the hardcover book:
"A Tree of the Body was a sort of memorial created by the ancient elves who had inhabited Cormyr before men. According to Tanalasta—and the princess was known for being well read on such things—when an esteemed elf died, his fellows sometimes inscribed his epitaph on the trunk of a small sapling and buried the body beneath the roots."
The trees the ghazneths came from were twisted and diseased, and had the common poem on it with just the last line varying. I have not yet had enough time to reread Beyond the High Road but that's my recollection. So, I am guessing that it was Lorelei Alavara who had people reburied. I truly can't recall if all of the twisted trees were together or not, so it's possible that the trees were planted over an existing grave.
quote:
Markustay also said:However, all the confusion goes beyond simple vaguness of details - the Trees were never seen before the events of the novel, and at least one person (IIRC) makes a comment that they had "been down that way before". The problem with that is that the trees were VERY ancient - this means either time travel or some VERY powerful concealment magic.
In this, I feel confident in saying it wouldn't be the first time the elves used mass translocation magic, especially where Iliphar and his court were concerned. Their great pavillions came and went with magic, if memory serves.
quote:
Markustay then said:Then all those years as a Dragon could have given her the time and faculties to become a powerful Mage, and using Ancient Elven Magics on the bodies slowly transformed the traitors into Ghazneths. I would say it takes a great deal of time, but that last one was transfomred pretty quick (a few months?) That then leaves us with the problem of why Nalavarauthatoryl waited so long (there had to be other traitors in Cormyrian history), unless we throw something hokey into the mix like "The ToT weakened the barrier between her dimension and that of Toril".
Which brings us to another problem - if she was trapped in another dimension all that while, then who was burying all those traitors?
First, I don't recall it ever being said what magical powers Lorelei Alavara possessed prior to her death/transformation/banishment. Perhaps she was already a powerful mage? Ed would know, but I suspect it's protected by NDA. Ed tends not to hide Realms Role, but if he writes it and then it is edited out, he can't disclose it, as it is then owned by WoTC; NDAs are strange that way.
As to why she waited so long, that has to do with Alaundo's prophecy of the Seven Scourges. It couldn't just be any traitor; it had to be a traitor who fit one of the seven particular scourges. I liken this (whether correctly or not) to the "Seven Deadly Sins." For the prophecy to be fulfilled, you needed more than just a bunch of traitors who rebelled on greed, for example. But you'd pick the most treacherous of them to use as a ghazneth.
I haven't always agreed with Troy Denning's works and their impacts on the Realms, and I often wonder how different Waterdeep would have been if Scott Ciencin had written it as well. I really liked what Jim Lowder did in Prince of Lies and found Crucible to be lacking in some areas, too. Now, having just said that, I have no idea how much of what happened in Troy's books (or parts of others) was mandated by WoTC or TSR, or what was changed by his editors. So, I just want to get that out.
I still find the concept of the ghazneths interesting, although some of the "traitors" crimes seem feeble to me. Suzara leaving Ondeth has always felt like a thready tie to me to justify Lorelei Alavara's husband's death (which predates the founding of Cormyr as well) as Suzara didn't really betray anything. She just wasn't a "Country Girl" and she went back to the city. I doubt that Suzail offered much in the ways of creature comforts that would have attracted Suzara for a few centuries after its founding. Again, Ed would know her best, but it just surprises me that she was the strongest candidate for a scourge. It does, though, lend some legitimacy to events that happened prior to Cormyr's founding as a human kingdom.
Now that I've rambled for a good bit, I'll add that I'm still confused about Rowen and Tanalasta most of all. Rowen, who at the time of his "disappearance" is surrounded by nearly all of the highest priests of Cormyr, and without knowing the specifics of Tanalsta's death, decides she can't be resurrected? Azoun's final orders (as such) to Vangerdahast) were to aid Tanalasta in ruling the kingdom, and one might assume that would include bringing her back from the dead. His decision to disappear just doesn't fit into my view of the Realms or logic, but maybe he was too twisted in mind to understand. The fact that he hasn't surfaced (yet) but cannot be destroyed without absolution is an interesting thought. Does he age as a man or as a ghazneth? If he were reverted by, say, Forin, how old would he be? To these questions, I have not yet found answers.
As sages, we want answers to every question we can find. In that aspect, we do honor to Candlekeep and to Oghma's task. As authors, Ed and Troy have to write compelling books that leave some openings either for sequels, or for people who buy the WoTC products to expand upon the "loose threads" left behind. Sorry to unfurl such an old scroll, but occasionally I like digging around and seeing what's to be seen.
Cheers to all,
|
| Brimstone |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 03:21:08
BUMP! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 20:03:24
I have read the novel three times (twice again recently), and I'm still a little confused (I had to ask Ed some geography questions, considering the characters were doing some traveling they ought not to have been able to - and Ed was kind enough to give me a quick reply that helped).
There is also the matter of who killed the Sleeping Lords - maybe I'm just an idiot, but I couldn't really figure out who did it (I think the book pointed to Rowan, but that really doesn't make any sense).
A lot of things point to Nalavarauthatoryl having an accomplice 'on the outside', but how she could have communicated with them is unknown. The other thing could be the whole time-distortion between Grodd and the Realms. She may have had the Goblins reburying the bodies for quite awhile, but what was only a few years to them could have been centuries in Faerûn.
Edit: There is a bit in the history section of The Hoard Demiplane in Into the Dragon's Lair, that says she was 'locked away' in the Year of the Mortal Promise (116 DR), and she did indeed have Elven Allies at that time (the Eldreth Veluthra? Or their predeccessors?)
Anyhow, the story says that her followers (along with some unlucky Cormyrians) were 'sucked up' into the vortex with her and dropped into the Demiplane. I suppose a few may have escaped that fate, but we still don't know how they were still able to do her bidding. Also, that is a completely different demiplane then the one holding Grodd, and somehow over time the barriers between the planes began to weaken, such that travel between the two was possible. This is where it gets weird, because it appears that part of the Dragon was stuck in Grodd, and it was the Dragon's 'frozen' body (stasis, really) that acted as the portal between the two.
Its very hard to understand all these Planer relationships and differnent beings involved. The Grodd Goblins supposedly had their own Kingdom once where Cormyr now stands, but no such history exists for them in the GHotR or anywhere else (outside of the module). It makes me wonder if the Kingdom of the Grodd existed in -17,600 DR, and they were one of many cultures 'erased' by the Elven Sundering, when that ritual changed Toril's past and altered the timeline. That makes poor Grodd a bit of a 'Planer Orphan', and that could be why it is just floating in the nether now.
Its all so confusing. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 23:11:56
Thanks for your thoughts, Markustay. I remember the bit about the trees being involved (I probably have it in my scattered notes on my hard drive somewhere), and also that Nalavara was the only one who knew how to use the trees to create ghazneths. I'm just not a big fan of the word 'unknowable' and I see it as something of a cop-out. If the answer doesn't exist, I'm more than happy to come up with one. I like your 'Fafnir' explanation, and agree that vengeance could be a suitable catalyst for such a transformation, especially in a xenophobic elf. The bit about the trees and who was burying the traitors, I'll have to check into more closely... my thoughts on the burials would be, someone sympathetic to Nalavara (likely another elf; a member of Thatoryl's family, maybe?) or just someone (maybe the Eldreth Veluuthra?) who believes that the elves never should have given the humans control of the realm.
There's an NDA involved with the discrepancy over the dates of Thatoryl's death; hopefully that will get cleared up soon. Anyway, check out my poll on extended Cormyr noble lineage freedom-of-information. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 18:03:08
There were some funky rune-encrusted trees involved somehow, IIRC. The novels never really explain how they got there or who created them - it is suggested that they they were an Elven form of burial rarely seen (for traitors?), but the odd part was that the Ghazneths buried beneath were NOT Elven. That means Nalavarauthatoryl must have re-buried them at some point after their deaths.
However, all the confusion goes beyond simple vaguness of details - the Trees were never seen before the events of the novel, and at least one person (IIRC) makes a comment that they had "been down that way before". The problem with that is that the trees were VERY ancient - this means either time travel or some VERY powerful concealment magic.
The part about Nalavarauthatoryl turning into a Dragon I can live with as-is; there are a few stories about greedy folks turning into Dragons after laying on top of a Dragon's Horde. Suppose it's not Greed? Suppose all you need to have are 'Draconic Thoughts' (Death, Vengeance, Destruction, etc)? Nalavarauthatoryl could have been aware of how such things work, being of much older Elven Stock (and Elves know more about Dragons then anyone else). Perhaps she found herself a Horde and set the wheels in motion for her transformation?
Then all those years as a Dragon could have given her the time and faculties to become a powerful Mage, and using Ancient Elven Magics on the bodies slowly transformed the traitors into Ghazneths. I would say it takes a great deal of time, but that last one was transfomred pretty quick (a few months?) That then leaves us with the problem of why Nalavarauthatoryl waited so long (there had to be other traitors in Cormyrian history), unless we throw something hokey into the mix like "The ToT weakened the barrier between her dimension and that of Toril".
Which brings us to another problem - if she was trapped in another dimension all that while, then who was burying all those traitors? 
I believe the module ItDL talked about time distortions as well (between the Grodd Plane and Toril), so I just chalk all of this up to 'unknowable mysteries and temporal anomalies', kind of like the Dawn Cataclysm.  |
| freyar |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 14:27:31
For those interested, there are relatively new 3.5e conversions of the ghazneths in the EN World Creature Catalog:
Suzara
Boldovar
Merendil
Melineth
Luthax
Xanthon |
| Jakk |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 09:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Jakk, I'm afraid that I can't discuss the details of any of your three questions. There are answers, I promise you, but since my knowing them is involved with access to things that I can't share, I really can't suggest, hint, or speculate on any of the three issues.
My apologies.
No apologies necessary, Garen. NDA's make me sad. 
Any idea on when these NDA's will be dealt with? Even a general time frame? Likely not, with all future published 4e Realmslore coming from novels and D&Di... Thanks anyway. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 07:42:29
There's more about the Devil Dragon in the early 3e Into the Dragon’s Lair module also, btw. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 06:49:13
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
First (chronologically and in importance): How did Lorelei Alavara become the Devil Dragon? I can't find this story anywhere. Did I just not read the Cormyr Saga closely enough? I know her lover, Thatoryl Elian, was killed by Andar Obarskyr (or others; this contradiction has apparently been resolved according to REALMS-L, but NDA...  ), but I have no information on how she became a dracoform.
Me, I'm figuring that when her lover was slain, she was so consumed by anger and hatred that it made her an easy mark for some powerful nastybad to make a deal with her and turn her into a dragon. A deity or fiend seems the most obvious source for the arcane juice such a transformation would entail, but it could also be a powerful wizard or group of wizards.
Of course, then you have to ask "Why?" If she had help, why did her benefactor(s) help her? What was their gain?
It's also possible that she somehow turned into a dragon on her own. We know it's not impossible to do that. But that would take a lot of magical oomph, and I'm not so sure that even the most vengeful elf would say "Hey, it sure would be easier to get my revenge if I was a dragon!" I don't favor this idea.
If she did have outside help, then it answers the question of "how?". But in that case, "Why?" becomes a far more interesting question.
How the ghazneths were formed is another interesting question. There are plenty of other cases of people betraying Cormyr or any other nation, without becoming some sort of nasty cursed entity... It's possible that Alavara's transformation was somehow tied to whatever transformed the ghazneths.
And the fact that it all happened in Cormyr... Did the original Purple Dragon, or maybe his elven successors, leave some sort of magical safeguards in place? Were the creations of these nastybads linked to some actual plot of revenge, or some twisted form of policing the realm's successors? It's something to ponder... |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 05:38:06
Jakk, I'm afraid that I can't discuss the details of any of your three questions. There are answers, I promise you, but since my knowing them is involved with access to things that I can't share, I really can't suggest, hint, or speculate on any of the three issues.
My apologies. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 05:34:46
You should probably ask Ed in his thread, but the part about Tanalasta sounds somewhat familiar, although I think that it's either a faulty , or at the very least skewed, way of looking at the events at the end of that novel.
She did have to die, IIRC, for the curse to be broken, but I think the resurrection part may have been pure conjecture (although I'm not positve here - just working from memory).
I also think that last Ghazneth is still alive somewhere (even in 4e - they can't die naturally). |
| Jakk |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 05:17:53
A little more thread necromancy here... I couldn't find answers to my most irritating questions regarding the ghazneths and Nalavarauthatoryl anywhere else.
First (chronologically and in importance): How did Lorelei Alavara become the Devil Dragon? I can't find this story anywhere. Did I just not read the Cormyr Saga closely enough? I know her lover, Thatoryl Elian, was killed by Andar Obarskyr (or others; this contradiction has apparently been resolved according to REALMS-L, but NDA... ), but I have no information on how she became a dracoform.
Second: I found this bit on the rpg.net forums, and I was wondering about its accuracy:
Quote from Eldermount on the rpg.net forums:
quote:
Vangerdahast becomes an unwilling participant in releasing a dragon who hates the Obarskyr family (the royal family). The dragon's history goes back to before there was a Cormyr. She was an elf back then, and a member of the Obarskyr family killed her lover. She wants revenge, and has waited centuries for her chance at vengeance.
Princess Tanalasta is pregnant with the child of one the Cormaerils (who incidentally became the last ghazneth even though he remains loyal to Cormyr and the Obarskyr family). She is killed breaking the curses of the Ghazneths, but if she is resurrected the worst of the ghazneths will revive, so she refuses to allow a resurrection. Her child is born as she dies. The last remaining ghazneth, the father of her child, has his curse tied to her. And with Tanalasta dead, the curse cannot be broken.
I couldn't verify the bit about the ghazneth revival being tied to Tanalasta's resurrection. If someone has a source and page number for me, that would be great. 
Third: Directed at Garen Thal: Is the resolution of the discrepancy over the death of Thatoryl Elian available? Mind you, the source that brought this question up is from the REALMS-L archives and is only two and a half years old, and I also know that old NDAs never die... they just get older, even if they're no longer needed. I'd also like to add my voice to the movement suggesting that all pre-Spellplague-storyline-related NDAs be vacated if the emphasis is going to be on post-Spellplague material. 
Anyway, any answers that can be given are greatly appreciated... and answers that can't be given indicate the necessity of further development. Soon! |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 19:44:47
quote:
Originally posted by LysanderI vaguely remember the details of Suzara herself (been a while since I read the book) - but there still is a child of Ondeth's unaccounted for. I believe the second son - the one that did not become king - was married into one of the three Silver families (Crownsilver maybe; he'd have to have nothing but girls for that branch of the Obarskyrs to blend into the Silvers ). However, my recollection is that it was specifically stated that the third (youngest) son went with Suzara. Technically, that son's line wouldn't be a descendent of Cormyrian royalty (It was his brother that was the first king) but a birthright claim could still be had - especially as close as it was ;)
I know it's all a bit nit-picking, but I'm interested in if I either missed a sentence ot two about the child (e.g. "He died from rosy plague at age 15." or some such) or how others that focus on Cormyr use this "loose end."
Ondeth and Suzara did have three sons, at least according to the behind-the-scenes construction that's been done on the House Obarskyr by the people who do that sort of thing and keep Realmslore consisten and moving (pay no attention to we men behind the curtain, please). Their number of offspring is not mentioned in Cormyr: A Novel, and the book mentions only two-Faerlthann and Rhiiman--by name, saying that "Suzara took the youngest lad and returned to Impiltur, sailing away on the first boat to moor at the new dock. Ondeth did not see her off, but Faerlthann did."
I cannot tell all of what I know--my apologies for that--but what follows should be enough to quench your curiosity on this matter, and whet it on many others.
Faerlthann, of course, became king. Rhiiman, the second son, eventually married one of the Silver daughters to found the Crownsilver family. A note:the other 'silver families are similary related to the royal house, being formed by the marriage of Faerlthann's uncle Villiam (the Truesilvers) and Imlon's brother-in-law Gavrund Huntyn (the Huntsilvers) to daughters of the Silver brothers.
The youngest, who is called Vaerom, became a mercenary in the grand (Impilturan) Obarskyr tradition, and returned to Cormyr only twice after leaving as a small child: once to try and leverage his brother the king into letting him set up a base there, and the second time to flee the wrath of the Impilturan royal family. Refused both times, he set out for Westgate, and his fate is largely unknown. |
| Lysander |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 19:14:30
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Officially, Suzara returned to Impiltur, dissolved her marriage to Ondeth, and wed a Theskan merchant (Cormyr: A Novel, ch. 8). Since the method for creating ghazneths involves burying the corpse beneath a corrupted Tree of the Body, someone connected to Nalavara must have discovered where Suzara lay and either planted one over her, or moved her body elsewhere; in either case, she spent long years as a ghazneth nursing her hatred before she was unleashed on her ungrateful descendants.
Unofficially, I can tell you that just about every royal personage (with very few exceptions) has been accounted for by official author-types behind the scenes. In any case, it would be impossible for an Obarskyr to be the motivating force behind the ghazneths; Trees of the Body are an elven artifact, and Obarskyrs have the power to defeat the ghazneths. It was Nalavara that did it.
I vaguely remember the details of Suzara herself (been a while since I read the book) - but there still is a child of Ondeth's unaccounted for. I believe the second son - the one that did not become king - was married into one of the three Silver families (Crownsilver maybe; he'd have to have nothing but girls for that branch of the Obarskyrs to blend into the Silvers ). However, my recollection is that it was specifically stated that the third (youngest) son went with Suzara. Technically, that son's line wouldn't be a descendent of Cormyrian royalty (It was his brother that was the first king) but a birthright claim could still be had - especially as close as it was ;)
I know it's all a bit nit-picking, but I'm interested in if I either missed a sentence ot two about the child (e.g. "He died from rosy plague at age 15." or some such) or how others that focus on Cormyr use this "loose end."
Lysander |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 17:54:57
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
My reason is because they're just plain weird, and apparently have no place in current Realms fiction...
Leaving aside the other creature types, I can say pretty definitively that this is the reason the ghazneths haven't shown prominently in Realmslore since Death of the Dragon. There were, in total, only seven ghazneths created before the only creature that knew how to create them (Nalavara) was destroyed. Each ghazneth contributed to its own creation by some betrayal of Cormyr and its royal family. The reasons they haven't shown up:
-Ghazneths don't make good dramatic villains if the whole story of why/how the individual betrayed Cormyr is already known, and we know Rowen Cormaeril's story.
-Because they must be destroyed by an Obarskyr, Ghazneths are only appropriate villains for a story which features an Obarskyr as the main character, else we are forced to watch that character be "saved" by some royal from the ghazneth.
-Ghazneths don't foster a positive game experience, which is something WotC is hoping for in its fiction. With convoluted destruction methods, and the inability of PCs to defeat them (because of their immunity to magic and the necessity of an Obarskyr to the process), it's better to just leave them out.
-The final ghazneth, Rowen, is Troy Denning's character, and most authors try and stay away from the characters of other authors unless they receive permission from the creating author. This isn't always the case, of course--Troy himself killed off James Lowder's Gwydion and Rinda without so much as a "how do you do"--but it's certainly the ideal circumstance, especially when you're also dealing with a unique monster type. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 15:31:05
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
My reason is because they're just plain weird, and apparently have no place in current Realms fiction...
Whereas drow are extremely cool, and have been featured in more FR books than perhaps even humans.
So if its new, or not drow.......? |
| Crust |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 15:00:37
My reason is because they're just plain weird, and apparently have no place in current Realms fiction...
Whereas drow are extremely cool, and have been featured in more FR books than perhaps even humans.
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