| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Corruption |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 15:46:47
We hear the terms Subsume, Subsuming and other variations of it, but I want to know the proper meaning of it for FR matters.
For me, it means absorbing something into yourself.
For examples:
Subsuming another Diety may be getting them to be enough like an Aspect of you to be merged with you (As Shar tried with Sharess)
Subsuming a person may involve making them a Host and then an Avatar or Aspect.
Subsuming a Church may involve manking the church part of your own. For example, the Church of Lloth's grandson worked as a part of her own in Drow areas, and he was only honored by them for his position serving Lloth.
. . . . And I just got an idea for a Demi-God of Tricksters Subsuming a Demi-God of Joy to change his Portfolio into Pranks.
. . . . And I just got another idea: A Diety Subsuming an enemy into one of their Masks. For example, Lloth could Subsume some Deity of decay and rot into her Darkbringer Mask, but not her own main identity.
I am interested in how others see Subsuming, the status of the Subsumed (Are they Aspects, Masks, Avatars or what) and the actual process. |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Corruption |
Posted - 19 Oct 2017 : 09:03:10
Now, now, some of the corruptions of them can be interesting. For example, Ogre, and Orc are corruptions of Orcus, who was a one eyed god ofthe Underworld. It's not like D&D just ripped that off . . . . . Oh, hello Gruumsh, I didn't see you there. . . . . Of course I'm not implying you are simply a rip off like Tyr is. Oh, CRA
(We won't be back in just a moment.) |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 10 Oct 2017 : 15:38:46
quote:
Originally posted by Corruption
For a real world example of Subsuming, look at how the Romans claimed the Norse Gods were just their own Gods under different names. Thor was Germaticia Hercules (German Hercules). They also Subsumed different Greek Gods together. Orcus (the inspiration for the one in FR), a God of the Dead, was formed by them subsuming Horkus, God of Oaths, with Hades. Pluto was formed by subsuming Plutus, a God of wealth, with Hades (also called Pluton), God of the Underworld, and all the treasures that come from there, Dis Pater, Horkus, and a few others over a long period of time.
Heck, the Romans just mastered what the Greeks had been doing for ages!
If anyone wants to study how to have Gods Subsume each other, I suggest studying them to get an idea for tricks to use.
My hats off to you, Corruption! For so eloquently reminding everyone that even in the real-world, the Olympians/Elves are not creators of Art & Culture... They are petty, soulless architects of cultural misappropriation... selling the Art & Culture of peoples own ancestors back to them... all while derisively expecting praise and adulation for shouldering the "High-Elves Burden" of bringing civilization to the cultures they have destroyed...  |
| Corruption |
Posted - 10 Oct 2017 : 09:36:57
Asmodeus did not subsume Azuth: he got Azuth's corpse and consumed the Divine spark in it. Yeah, he ate part of a corpse of a Demi-God!
He never tried to make Azuth a part of himself, except for the Spark.
For a real world example of Subsuming, look at how the Romans claimed the Norse Gods were just their own Gods under different names. Thor was Germaticia Hercules (German Hercules). They also Subsumed different Greek Gods together. Orcus (the inspiration for the one in FR), a God of the Dead, was formed by them subsuming Horkus, God of Oaths, with Hades. Pluto was formed by subsuming Plutus, a God of wealth, with Hades (also called Pluton), God of the Underworld, and all the treasures that come from there, Dis Pater, Horkus, and a few others over a long period of time.
Heck, the Romans just mastered what the Greeks had been doing for ages!
If anyone wants to study how to have Gods Subsume each other, I suggest studying them to get an idea for tricks to use. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Oct 2017 : 00:18:54
For Asmodeus-and-Azuth I think "usurp" would be more accurate than "subsume". But there's a lot of imprecision and overlap between these vague rubbery words. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 04 Oct 2017 : 20:36:00
Even if Asmodeus think he knows how to subsume an god, and does it, is it any guarantee he's correct?
Thinking of it, it could be equal to replacing a King in real life:
- You could take someone's work. As replacement for him. (the Constable of the Tower of London had this responsibility, long ago)...
- You could pretend to BE the king.
- Take the throne by force, or inheritance.
It could be equal to the "demiurge" fake god of Gnosticism: even if you think you are a god, you might be someone who just thinks so, and just "sit in the chair" and do some fiddly stuff. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Oct 2017 : 17:10:33
Yeah, I'm thinking it just means, at its most basic level, "folded into the church of...", and individual gods take it from there, with the 'gooder' (yeah, I know thats not really a word LOL) deities probably allowing them some sort of 'Saint' status, and the more ebil ones trying to completely... subsume (absorb).. them utterly. Although thats more of a rule-of-thumb, not a set-in-stone kind of thing (even Lolth has allowed 'lesser' gods to serve beneath her, and a few good deities have absorbed other gods to the point the other no longer exists in any appreciable way). |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 04 Oct 2017 : 02:13:09
So it would depend on the definition you were going with, and the results you wanted (whether you were aiming for a merger with another deity, or whether a deity was becoming part of a larger group). Context would play a big part. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Oct 2017 : 01:57:14
I emphasize a difference present in some dictionaries/definitions:
- to include something as part of a larger group
vs
- to include something in a larger group and cause it to lose its own individual character |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 03 Oct 2017 : 21:03:00
I think of it is an absorption/merger, such as the case with the gods of the Yuir and the Seldarine. Severely weakened, the Yuir were absorbed by some members of the Seldarine, and are now considered "wild aspects" of some of the Seldarine powers. Even this however suggests that the Yuir gods haven't been entirely absorbed.
Subsuming (by dictionary definition) can mean to classify within a larger category or under a general principle. This implies not just an absorption, but weaker powers "serving" higher powers of similar principle (Mystra, Azuth, and Sevras, for example). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 01 Oct 2017 : 03:15:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
A valid counterargument, Markus. Although it does imply some connection between Asmodeus and Wizbro, lol.
That would explain a lot of things, though.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Oct 2017 : 00:01:12
A valid counterargument, Markus. Although it does imply some connection between Asmodeus and Wizbro, lol. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 23:50:14
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Only Asmodeus could somehow twist and exploit the meaning of "subsume" written in rulebooks/novels/canon to his benefit, lol. Even Ao has never demonstrated powers of OOC knowledge or metagaming manipulation. (Although, perhaps, Elminster's impositions on Realmslore have done so, in a most tenuous sense.)
This is because Asmodeus has a presence here on Earth, whereas Ao, and most of the Faerūnian pantheon, do not.
Although I'm pretty sure my Ex may have been Lolth in disguise... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 23:01:07
quote:
Originally posted by Corruption
We hear the terms Subsume, Subsuming and other variations of it, but I want to know the proper meaning of it for FR matters.
For me, it means absorbing something into yourself.
For examples:
Subsuming another Diety may be getting them to be enough like an Aspect of you to be merged with you (As Shar tried with Sharess)
Subsuming a person may involve making them a Host and then an Avatar or Aspect.
Subsuming a Church may involve manking the church part of your own. For example, the Church of Lloth's grandson worked as a part of her own in Drow areas, and he was only honored by them for his position serving Lloth.
. . . . And I just got an idea for a Demi-God of Tricksters Subsuming a Demi-God of Joy to change his Portfolio into Pranks.
. . . . And I just got another idea: A Diety Subsuming an enemy into one of their Masks. For example, Lloth could Subsume some Deity of decay and rot into her Darkbringer Mask, but not her own main identity.
I am interested in how others see Subsuming, the status of the Subsumed (Are they Aspects, Masks, Avatars or what) and the actual process.
Subsuming a deity could also simply mean killing them and taking their portfolio. Although that doesn't seem to be long-lasting in the Realms. Even Cyric lost the portfolio of murder to the returned Bhaal, illusion to the returned Leira.
Taking a deity as an alias/mask is not the same as subsuming them. For example, Lolth answering some prayers for Moander didn't give her his portfolio or divinity. In fact, I wouldn't say that Moander--who is currently still around as a warlock patron--has been subsumed by anyone. As I pointed in my comment to your post in another thread, you may steal a deity's portfolio, but subsuming a deity--as in subsuming their identity and spark--is quite impossible (and usually ends up with that deity returning to bite your rear).
Subsuming a church doesn't have much meaning in a polytheistic world like Toril, because most people already pray to all deities. You may try to subsume the clergy, but remember that mortals have free will, and clerics tend to have a deeper bond with their deity. So, even if you take over another god, unless said god was mostly about opportunism, it wouldn't be easy to maintain the faith of their clerics.
In the case of Selvetarm, AFAIK, he didn't really even have a church before being corrupted by Lolth. Eilistraee took care of him until his corruption led him away from her and under Lolth's thumb. His church was born among the followers of Lolth, so it wasn't really a case of subsuming, as of specialization. His case might even be the opposite of subsuming: his church, born within Lolth's, started to try to gain independence before he was killed. With the return of the various drow gods, Selvetarm might try to complete what he started 100 years ago, and he may receive the support of his aunt (it would only make sense for her to), if only WotC decided to care about developing their story once more |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 22:12:32
Only Asmodeus could somehow twist and exploit the meaning of "subsume" written in rulebooks/novels/canon to his benefit, lol. Even Ao has never demonstrated powers of OOC knowledge or metagaming manipulation. (Although, perhaps, Elminster's impositions on Realmslore have done so, in a most tenuous sense.) |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 22:00:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The benefits of subsuming would be that the subsumed entity would have much less of a chance of ever becoming independent again (it basically 'lost itself' in something similar). The greater the difference between two entities, the greater the chances of the one breaking free from the other. This is probably why Asmodeus' absorption of Azuth didn't 'stick'. And personally, I don't think Azuth was ever really absorbed - more likely he was captured in some sort of artifact (maybe something that Asmodeus wears), and Asmodeus just let people think he had absorbed Azuth (since he has access to Azuth's power at that point).
EDIT:
Also - mostly for subsuming but also for normal absorption - I would think there was a time-factor involved. The longer two things are joined together, the harder it becomes to separate them. Furthermore, a being should wait until another is fully 'digested' (completely subsumed to the point where the other is no longer an independent entity anymore) before attempting it on another entity; doing so could cause major problems (just ask the Absorboloph from Doctor Who).
In fact, Asmodeus let people believe he had killed Azuth and absorbed his divinity. The whole "Azuth was absorbed by Asmodeus" was a big plot point in the Brimstone Angels novels for that reason: nobody knew Azuth was even alive at that point. And that is not common knowledge. Only a pair of devils knew this (including Glasya), as well as a few mortals (Farideh and friends). For the rest of the universe, Azuth was truly dead, Asmodues became a god by stealing his divinity, and later Azuth resurrected because reasons... I mean, Ao.
Is there were implications that, if people knew that Asmodeus was only fused with another god, and was not a real, "natural" god, would be damaging for him in some way (perhaps, because he used his godhood to consolidate his absolute power in the Hells).
BTW, the usage of subsuming also has been used for fusing with things... "Laerakond subsumed Maztica and sent it to Abeir" is one of the weird usages of the word in canon. At least, for a non-native speaker of English, like myself. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 21:25:15
When a deity subsumes another deity, they gain the divine power and portfolio(s) of the subsumed deity, as well as responsibility over the subsumed deity's faithful.
If the faithful (currently residing in the afterlife) aren't willing to accept the new deity, then they might migrate to other deities' realms (it's possible to worship more than one deity even if you choose to live with a particular favorite), or they might be sent to the god of the dead for "re-processing", in which case the servants of other deities might try to invite the stranded faithful to new divine sanctuaries.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 19:16:10
Some definitions for "subsume":
- include or absorb (something) in something else
- to include or place within something larger or more comprehensive
- to consider or include (an idea, term, proposition, etc.) as part of a more comprehensive one
- to bring (a case, instance, etc.) under a rule
- to take up into a more inclusive classification
- to include something or someone as part of a larger group
- to include something in a larger group and cause it to lose its own individual character
- to absorb, contain or include something into something else
I think the D&D usage for "subsuming" deities (which I understand much the same way you do) is obvious, mostly straightforward, slightly nonspecific.
The real question you're asking is not about subsuming a deity's powers and portfolios, it's about subsuming a deity's identity. Internal identity (deity's "self", "mind", "soul", whatever) and external identity (what the deity's Faithful believe or define the deity to be).
And it seems that results vary from deity to deity. Talos subsumed Kozath (and Gruumsh), Lathander subsumed Amaunator, Asmodeus subsumed Azuth, Cyric subsumed Leira, Finder subsumed Moander. Mystra subsumed Mystra (multiple times), lol. While the same verb described each action it produced different results each time. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 15:59:22
Yes, you got the right of it (IMO).
Its a specific type of absorption: Absorption by first making the thing similar to one's self (or, finding something that's already very similar on some level). We have examples of Gods absorbing others where they weren't anything alike, and that would NOT be a case of 'subsuming'.
The benefits of subsuming would be that the subsumed entity would have much less of a chance of ever becoming independent again (it basically 'lost itself' in something similar). The greater the difference between two entities, the greater the chances of the one breaking free from the other. This is probably why Asmodeus' absorption of Azuth didn't 'stick'. And personally, I don't think Azuth was ever really absorbed - more likely he was captured in some sort of artifact (maybe something that Asmodeus wears), and Asmodeus just let people think he had absorbed Azuth (since he has access to Azuth's power at that point).
EDIT:
Also - mostly for subsuming but also for normal absorption - I would think there was a time-factor involved. The longer two things are joined together, the harder it becomes to separate them. Furthermore, a being should wait until another is fully 'digested' (completely subsumed to the point where the other is no longer an independent entity anymore) before attempting it on another entity; doing so could cause major problems (just ask the Absorboloph from Doctor Who). |
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